Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Crystanium]

I assume you mean the KO at the end, then?

No; just the punches.

 

[Munomario777]

No; just the punches.

Which ones, may I ask? The regular ones, or the "star" ones (using the stars at the top left)?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

They're similar in what they block, but different in what happens when an attack gets through.

Actually, to be clear, attacks don't go through Super Sonic. They hit Super Sonic, and only the strong ones damage him. Mewtwo's attacks are very strong (his Sp. Atk stat is 590, his Atk stat is 350), so it can be assumed that any of his attacks would work anyways.

As for the non-attacks, Super Sonic can still be affected by those using invincibility. Mewtwo can achieve this by using Protect, so anything he does in the 2.5 minutes will work just fine. Trick/Skill Swap.

So Mewtwo would be trying to TK Super Sonic, which wouldn't work.

See above. Also, Mewtwo would be trying to TK Sonic turning into Super Sonic, which would work.

Do they serve this function in the games?

Psychic no, Confusion no, TK I don't know. Regardless, Mewtwo has used telekinesis to hold things in place.

Yes; we keep track of rules that are voted for in formal lists (the ones kept by Shadow) and every vote has users tagged and such.

How does this relate to rules being revoted for?

It's your job to prove your point, not mine.

I did prove it. You're trying to disprove my proof, which isn't much good

Ah, okay. Do you have a video of its speed?

10:46.

Correct. They're better than "the best".

And most of them aren't.

Really? Let's look at the characters I listed and see whether or not they have superhuman jumping or running.
: Yes
: Yes
: Yes
: Yes (see 3D World's pre-final boss cutscene for a good example)
: Yes (is rather agile in the anime and such if I'm not mistaken)
: Yes (Shadow Mario is as agile as Mario)
: No (but has fast flying instead)
: Yes
: Yes
: No (but has teleportation etc instead)
: No (but has fast flying instead)
: Yes (is rather quick if I'm not mistaken)
: Yes (especially with the Brawler Gloves)
: Yes (with Super Speed)

I'm starting to question if you know the meaning of the word "most".

And how will this prevent them from attacking straight through them and at Kirby?

They can't attack while they're being blasted.

Does Kirby retain his speed and increased durability during this?

Yup.

Wheel Kirby does have charge time thanks to Air Ride (which is also where we get his top speed).

Kirby can choose to not have charge time though.

As for Bowser, his jumps are rather quick (see 3D Land's final boss for a good example of this).

Quick jumps do not mean quick running.

The Clown Car zooms off the screen at high speeds.

You're exaggerating there.

A) Gameplay > real life physics. If Wheel Kirby isn't stated to move at that speed, then he's not.
B) That's not true even in real life; see the basilisk (a lizard that can run on water).

A) He has no stated speed anywhere.
B) Basilisks do that through flaps between their toes, not speed.

Likelihood and an icon =/= proof.

Kirby having the intention for the clone to attack is more likely than the clone deciding to attack by itself. I mean, why would Kirby even summon it in the first place if he didn't want it to attack?

How thick are these stacks?

These are much more heavy-duty and combat-ready than a chunk of metal.

If they're so durable like you say they are, why do some of them use shields?

That's assuming that Kirby could even react to a light-speed attack.

Anyone can react to charging a light speed attack, actually.

Sonic is larger than that.

And Hypernova Kirby inhales things as large as Sonic.

It's his laser once he spits it out. A Waddle Doo, for example, cannot harm another Waddle Doo until Kirby spits it back out. Same with the laser.

The explosion wasn't actually caused by the beam though, it was caused by Sectonia being defeated. Sectonia exploding is not Kirby's attack.

And yet he is still hurt by a simple spike.

He was also not hurt by a giant explosion.

Because he lacks the strength to get it off the ground so he could get underneath it and thus get crushed.

He'd be crushed once he began to squeeze himself in there.

And what if the attack is too quick? Or if there are two attacks, preventing Kirby from blocking both at once? Or the attack has an AOE that is larger than Kirby can block?

Then the Helper takes some damage. If the Helper is destroyed, Kirby makes a new one easily.

Or Marx's force caused it instead. I could push a bomb off of a cliff and cause it to detonate, but I do not possess that bomb's amount of force.

Yeah, like Marx intentionally flew into a planet and blew himself up, all using his own force.

It's a galaxy containing multiple black holes.

Then Lumas can turn into galaxies containing multiple black holes.

Sword + Fire = Sword of Fire. Black hole + everything else = a galaxy.

Sword (one of Kirby's transformations) + Fire (one of Kirby's transformations) = Sword of Fire (one of Kirby's transformations). Black hole (not one of Luma's transformations) + everything else (not one of Luma's transformations) = a galaxy (one of Luma's transformations).

That's because the game would be too easy. It's the same reason that you still have to pay for the items you're using to save the world and things like that.

Because the game would be too easy.

• Why don't Copy/Crash/Paint/Cook/Mike Copy Abilities destroy bosses instantly?
• Why don't Pokemon moves have unlimited PP?
• Why can't Yoshi's tongue extend longer?

Because the game would be too easy. If we are not going to roll with any of these things, we should not roll with the ability for Lumas to control where they put their black holes.

Mario is different from a regular human, so we treat him differently from a regular human.


The enemy is different from a regular black hole, so we treat it differently from a regular black hole.

Luma black holes are different from regular black holes (regular black holes are not made from Lumas). Are we going to treat that differently from a regular black hole too?

Pointing out one eensy weensy little flaw in the art of a game isn't really a good argument, by the way.

The planets in Galaxy are much smaller than that.

How small?

Lumas can.

Well, I guess they could destroy the previous battlefield and create a new one, but technically, that wouldn't be destroying it.

And every other attack does.

Everyone is using their maximum stats here (no matter how inconsistent they are). That is the maximum durability Kirby has shown.

He still does have a rather predictable pattern, though.


And yet he mostly teleports away from Kirby and fires a ranged attack. He teleports to a random location, and if he happens to hit Kirby, it's just a coincidence. Sonic, on the other hand, would actively track Kirby down.

That wouldn't be a problem if Kirby laid on his back and inhaled, or used Paint to blind Sonic beforehand.

And it hasn't been proven.

That is the proof.

• The actual occurrence could have been anything with a faulty scanner in the analyzer.

This was Olimar, not a scanner.

• The knife cutting through an element in space/time, rather than space/time itself. For example, a piece of paper exists in both space and time, but it is neither.

Nobody actually thinks of space and time when they think of cutting a paper.

• It could be. That or a translation error, but I dunno.

Dimensional Slicer is NTSC only.

• Actually, smart people might be more likely to go insane.

And Olimar is not.

An unproven conclusion.

See above.

Olimar starts going nutty towards the end of Pikmin 1 in his logs if he starts getting close to the 30 day limit http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Olimar's_Voyage_Log days 25 and 26.

Well, he's sane again in Pikmin 2.

Kirby can’t suck up that mole with Supernova? It looks a bit weaker than I expected.

Nah, he has to launch it using blocks instead.

Don’t you mean Diameter?

No. The diameter of Venus is 7521 miles.

Greninja’s Protean can grant Immunities to: Normal, Fighting, Ground, Ghost, Electric and Psychic type attacks.
He can also get resistances to: everything minus Dragon type attacks.

Greninja can’t shift to Steel, Fire, Electric, Dragon or Fairy types.

That bumps him somewhat higher on my list.

 

[Munomario777]

Actually, to be clear, attacks don't go through Super Sonic. They hit Super Sonic, and only the strong ones damage him.

Yes, that's what I meant.

Mewtwo's attacks are very strong (his Sp. Atk stat is 590, his Atk stat is 350), so it can be assumed that any of his attacks would work anyways.

The ones that affect Super Sonic (AKA the ones not blocked by Protect) would make him lose a few Rings. We shouldn't assume anything based on attack stats alone.

As for the non-attacks, Super Sonic can still be affected by those using invincibility. Mewtwo can achieve this by using Protect, so anything he does in the 2.5 minutes will work just fine. Trick/Skill Swap.

Do you have proof that they would still affect Super Sonic?

See above. Also, Mewtwo would be trying to TK Sonic turning into Super Sonic, which would work.

And Sonic would be Super Sonic by this point, so it wouldn't.

Psychic no, Confusion no, TK I don't know. Regardless, Mewtwo has used telekinesis to hold things in place.

What kind of things? Have they tried to resist the TK, and if so, with what sort of force?

How does this relate to rules being revoted for?

It's best to have it in a formal system, so I called for a revote. We already have the thing you're asking for in a formal system, so a revote isn't necessary.

I did prove it. You're trying to disprove my proof, which isn't much good

"I clicked really quickly and this happened" is not proof.

10:46.

Then we use that speed.

And most of them aren't.

They jump much higher than average humans (and the others I listed achieve high speeds via other methods).

I'm starting to question if you know the meaning of the word "most".

Yes: 11
No: 3 (although I wasn't really using jumping height for these anyway)
Yes has more than No, so Yes has the most out of the two.

They can't attack while they're being blasted.

Why is that? Quite a few of these characters don't flinch when hit (for instance, Mario and co.), and those that do could probably shrug off an eight-inch guy attacking them.

Yup.

I see. Still, I don't see how this would severely hinder Charizard.

Kirby can choose to not have charge time though.

What do you mean?

Quick jumps do not mean quick running.

High jumping = high leg strength = fast running.

You're exaggerating there.

How so? It zooms off of the screen at relatively high speeds.

A) He has no stated speed anywhere.
B) Basilisks do that through flaps between their toes, not speed.

A) Then why should we assume he travels at the speed you mentioned?
B) Similarly, I'd imagine Wheel Kirby's rotation plays a key factor here (not to mention his rather small size).

By the way, where are you getting that speed requirement from?

Kirby having the intention for the clone to attack is more likely than the clone deciding to attack by itself. I mean, why would Kirby even summon it in the first place if he didn't want it to attack?

It's possible, but not proven.

I see.

If they're so durable like you say they are, why do some of them use shields?

For extra durability. Sonic can tear through even these robots, so Robotnik added shields in hopes of protecting the robots against Sonic.

Anyone can react to charging a light speed attack, actually.

And releasing it instantly? Sonic can store the charge and do whatever he wants while holding it.

And Hypernova Kirby inhales things as large as Sonic.

Not that quickly.

The explosion wasn't actually caused by the beam though, it was caused by Sectonia being defeated. Sectonia exploding is not Kirby's attack.

Sectonia exploding was caused by Kirby's attack.

He was also not hurt by a giant explosion.

And he was hurt by about a hundred other things. Many enemies, obstacles, etc. harming Kirby > one instance where he survives.

He'd be crushed once he began to squeeze himself in there.

How would he do that exactly?

Then the Helper takes some damage. If the Helper is destroyed, Kirby makes a new one easily.

Kirby must remove his current Copy Ability to create a Helper. If Kirby discards Stone, he can't guard. If he switches and discards the new ability, he's not guarding anymore.

Yeah, like Marx intentionally flew into a planet and blew himself up, all using his own force.

When did I ever imply that?

Then Lumas can turn into galaxies containing multiple black holes.

And naturally, they could also turn into just a black hole. I don't see why they couldn't.

Sword (one of Kirby's transformations) + Fire (one of Kirby's transformations) = Sword of Fire (one of Kirby's transformations). Black hole (not one of Luma's transformations) + everything else (not one of Luma's transformations) = a galaxy (one of Luma's transformations).

Fair enough. I don't think this would matter too much anyways though, since a black hole with a galaxy attached to it is still a black hole that could kill Kirby.

Because the game would be too easy.

• Why don't Copy/Crash/Paint/Cook/Mike Copy Abilities destroy bosses instantly?
• Why don't Pokemon moves have unlimited PP?
• Why can't Yoshi's tongue extend longer?

Because the game would be too easy. If we are not going to roll with any of these things, we should not roll with the ability for Lumas to control where they put their black holes.

• Because it lacks that power/because the bosses are too big.
• Because they run out of energy.
• Because it's short.

These all have logical explanations, whereas the Luma example doesn't (at least not one that I can think of). It doesn't seem to be a lack of control, due to the precise level design and all.

Luma black holes are different from regular black holes (regular black holes are not made from Lumas). Are we going to treat that differently from a regular black hole too?

No, because it otherwise has all of the properties of a black hole, such as distortion. The origin is irrelevant if the end result is the same.

Pointing out one eensy weensy little flaw in the art of a game isn't really a good argument, by the way.

Small details can make all the difference.

How small?

Well, I guess they could destroy the previous battlefield and create a new one, but technically, that wouldn't be destroying it.

I don't see why destroying it would be necessary.

Everyone is using their maximum stats here (no matter how inconsistent they are). That is the maximum durability Kirby has shown.

No, we're using the most common example in the case of a contradiction. In one instance, Kirby survives an explosion. 100+ times, he's hurt by attacks. Naturally, we go with the latter.

That wouldn't be a problem if Kirby laid on his back and inhaled, or used Paint to blind Sonic beforehand.

Why would inhaling above Kirby hinder Sonic, and when does Paint blind enemies?

That is the proof.

Wrong. It's a claim. Olimar is claiming that the knife has effects on spacetime, and claims must be proven to have relevance.

This was Olimar, not a scanner.

It was Olimar reading scanner data. We can assume this because in games like Pikmin 3, objects are scanned by the ship. In fact, now that I think about it, isn't Olimar's ship damaged in the game the knife is in?

Nobody actually thinks of space and time when they think of cutting a paper.

Fair enough.

Dimensional Slicer is NTSC only.

Oh, so it's not in the original Japanese version? In that case, I'm not sure we should treat it as canon.

And Olimar is not.

Well, he's sane again in Pikmin 2.

Olimar is insane because he's trapped on an alien planet. In Pikmin 2, he's trapped on an alien planet and likely insane again.

 

[Nerdicon]

Too long didn't read
Could someone catch me up on what's going on here?
I've been on internet hiatus due to medical issues.

 

[Crystanium]

High jumping = high leg strength = fast running.

Actually, the correlation is currently uncertain, so we can only work with what we know about individual characters.

Too long didn't read
Could someone catch me up on what's going on here?
I've been on internet hiatus due to medical issues.

I hope everything is fine with you.

A question was posed on whether or not all characters know what they're dealing with in terms of what each character is capable of. I said no and then presented why I think regardless of what happens, Samus' scan visor will come in handy and went through a brief discussion with Munomario777 on the functions of the scan visor and if Samus should be allowed to shoot while using it. We came to an agreement and then I provided a YouTube link to show Little Mac's striking strength, but Munomario777 prefers one from Little Mac!! for the Wii, so I was trying to come up with a calculation from that.

 

[Munomario777]

Too long didn't read
Could someone catch me up on what's going on here?
I've been on internet hiatus due to medical issues.

As far as the discussion between KD and myself goes:

FUTURE SIGHT/SUPER SONIC

• KD: Future Sight would go "through" Super Sonic and make Sonic lose all his Rings, since it deals normal damage to Pokemon using Protect
• Me: Super Sonic simply loses a few Rings like when he's damaged in the games; it wouldn't go "through" Sonic like it does with Protect because Super Sonic is a transformation, rather than a barrier

REVOTE ON PROTECT/OTHER INVINCIBILITIES CLAUSE

• KD: Yes, because someone changed their mind and we revoted the whole Chao Garden thing
• Me: No, because the Chao Garden thing was based on the lack of a formal system at the time of the original vote (plus, someone changing their mind isn't a reason to do a revote a few days later)

WHEEL KIRBY SPEED

• KD: ~40 mph, since that's the speed required to go across the surface of water (citation needed)
• Me: As fast as we see it travel, since real life physics =/= our own (including hydroplaning speed), plus the whole "Magic Boomerang" rule

CATCHING WHEEL KIRBY

• Me: Many characters show superhuman leg strength (particularly in jumping), and athletes can run at ~20 mph, so said characters would naturally exceed that speed and be able to catch Wheel Kirby
• KD: Opposing the above, saying that leg strength =/= running speed

META KNIGHT CLONE

• KD: The Meta Knight clone summoned by a certain Copy Ability (which just attacks onscreen enemies in-game) could do anything Kirby wants him to, since attacking the enemies was Kirby's intention
• Me: There's no indication that Kirby told the Meta Knight clone to attack like that, so he should be limited to doing just that

KIRBY VS SONIC'S SPIN ATTACK

• KD: Kirby could survive Sonic's spinball attack because he shows durability in the games
• Me: He can be harmed by stationary spikes, so spinning ones would hurt him as well

KIRBY VS SONIC'S LIGHT SPEED ATTACK

• KD: Kirby could inhale Sonic via Hypernova and react in time due to LSA's charge time
• Me: The charge can be stored and used instantaneously; during the charge time, Sonic can run around and do whatever he wants, leaving Kirby no time to react

KIRBY'S OVERALL DURABILITY

• KD: He survived the explosion at the end of Triple Deluxe
• Me: That was caused by Kirby, so it's due to the game mechanic of friendly fire (or lack thereof); plus, he gets hurt by everything else in the games

KIRBY VS CLOWN CAR

• KD: Bowser trapping Kirby underneath the Clown Car would be futile because he could squeeze under by flattening himself
• Me: Kirby needs to be crushed to flatten himself, which wouldn't happen here since Bowser is placing Kirby in the center, between the walls as opposed to underneath them

KIRBY PROTECTING THE HELPER

• KD: Kirby, while in stone form (preferably the animal one that lets him move around from Kirby 64), jumps up to block the opponent's attacks and defend his current Helper
• Me: That form is too slow, and the attacker could simply attack to both sides of Kirby at once

LUMAS TURNING INTO BLACK HOLES

• KD: They can't, since they only turn into galaxies containing them
• Me: They can, since it would make sense for them to turn into part of something they become

EFFECTIVENESS OF LUMA GALAXIES

• KD: They would kill Rosalina too due to their size
• Me: They're smaller than IRL planets (which he used the size figures for), and they can help modify the terrain (or rather, add new terrain) to twist the battlefield to Rosalina's advantage

KIRBY SURVIVING BLACK HOLES

• KD: He can, since he survives a black hole-esque enemy in the games
• Me: That's not a real black hole, due to a lack of distortion in certain areas

OLIMAR'S SPACE TIME RIPPING POCKET KNIFE

• KD: Olimar carries a knife that is stated to rip holes in space time and this could be used in battle
• Me: That's from his journal, not WoG; Olimar is also likely going insane, since he does in Pikmin 1, and likely does the same when he's in a similar position in Pikmin 2 (the game the knife is from)

And some other odds and ends you can find in the posts themselves.

Also, sorry to hear about the medical issues! Get well soon!

Actually, the correlation is currently uncertain, so we can only work with what we know about individual characters.

If it's uncertain, I say we use the logical conclusion, which is what I presented above (unless you have a reason for thinking otherwise).

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

10:46.

If they're so durable like you say they are, why do some of them use shields?

He was also not hurt by a giant explosion.

No. The diameter of Venus is 7521 miles.

That bumps him somewhat higher on my list.

That’s not a tank (tanks use trends and fully rotatable armored turrets), it’s a jeep with a large cannon of some sort attached. It’s likely faster than a tank as well.

Are you saying steel shields can block sonic’s attacks? I guess we have to drop Sonic down the tier list due to many fighters wearing armor. Speaking of armor the Fire Emblem characters can punch through even well armored foes, Ex. Radiant Dawn Ike vs a generic Begnion Sword General https://youtu.be/LMF3gQjnplo?list=PL86AE8D892CD8838A&t=104 at 1:44-1:57. @Dryn, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon What do you think about that level of strength? Does it mean Ike is stronger than Sonic (before accounting for Sonic‘s sheer speed)?

Plot Armor and he never seems to be in danger when regular enemies and bosses from his games explode.

I was referring to you saying that the average combatant has a radii of 2 feet which is ridiculous (I don’t think Bowser skews things that much).

Against which opponents does Protean give Greninja an insurmountable advantage against (perhaps we can come up with counter arguments)?

 

[Munomario777]

Are you saying steel shields can block sonic’s attacks? I guess we have to drop Sonic down the tier list due to many fighters wearing armor.

I've only found a source for it blocking the basic Homing Attack; I'm not sure if it blocks the Boost or not. Either way, the Light Speed Attack would make quick work of it (plus, he rips through metal armor and the like on a regular basis).

 

[Nerdicon]

As far as the discussion between KD and myself goes:

FUTURE SIGHT/SUPER SONIC

• KD: Future Sight would go "through" Super Sonic and make Sonic lose all his Rings, since it deals normal damage to Pokemon using Protect
• Me: Super Sonic simply loses a few Rings like when he's damaged in the games; it wouldn't go "through" Sonic like it does with Protect because Super Sonic is a transformation, rather than a barrier

Super Sonic is more like raising his defenses really, really, high, not protect so I agree with Muno

• 
  REVOTE ON PROTECT/OTHER INVINCIBILITIES CLAUSE
• KD: Yes, because someone changed their mind and we revoted the whole Chao Garden thing
• Me: No, because the Chao Garden thing was based on the lack of a formal system at the time of the original vote (plus, someone changing their mind isn't a reason to do a revote a few days later)

I still don't really understand this one
WHEEL KIRBY SPEED

• KD: ~40 mph, since that's the speed required to go across the surface of water (citation needed)
• Me: As fast as we see it travel, since real life physics =/= our own (including hydroplaning speed), plus the whole "Magic Boomerang" rule

I disagree with both of you, here's a video showcasing the highest possible speed of each vehicle. (21:16 for wheel) alternatively he could use the Wheelie Bike which he can summon via Wheel ability
CATCHING WHEEL KIRBY

• Me: Many characters show superhuman leg strength (particularly in jumping), and athletes can run at ~20 mph, so said characters would naturally exceed that speed and be able to catch Wheel Kirby
• KD: Opposing the above, saying that leg strength =/= running speed

See above
META KNIGHT CLONE

• KD: The Meta Knight clone summoned by a certain Copy Ability (which just attacks onscreen enemies in-game) could do anything Kirby wants him to, since attacking the enemies was Kirby's intention
• Me: There's no indication that Kirby told the Meta Knight clone to attack like that, so he should be limited to doing just that

I agree with Muno, extrapolation has no place in this thread
KIRBY VS SONIC'S SPIN ATTACK

• KD: Kirby could survive Sonic's spinball attack because he shows durability in the games
• Me: He can be harmed by stationary spikes, so spinning ones would hurt him as well

If the guy can survive Flowery Woods landing on him (which we already concluded would hurt quite a bit) he can survive a couple of spin dashes
KIRBY VS SONIC'S LIGHT SPEED ATTACK

• KD: Kirby could inhale Sonic via Hypernova and react in time due to LSA's charge time
• Me: The charge can be stored and used instantaneously; during the charge time, Sonic can run around and do whatever he wants, leaving Kirby no time to react

Source? I don't remember the Lightspeed Attack being storable. Either way just standing in a corner and using Hypernova wouldn't even give Sonic a chance to attack physically
KIRBY'S OVERALL DURABILITY

• KD: He survived the explosion at the end of Triple Deluxe
• Me: That was caused by Kirby, so it's due to the game mechanic of friendly fire (or lack thereof); plus, he gets hurt by everything else in the games

He has plenty of other feats, so this really isn't a big deal
KIRBY VS CLOWN CAR

• KD: Bowser trapping Kirby underneath the Clown Car would be futile because he could squeeze under by flattening himself
• Me: Kirby needs to be crushed to flatten himself, which wouldn't happen here since Bowser is placing Kirby in the center, between the walls as opposed to underneath them

Kirby could use Spark to send an electric charge through the metal of the Clown Car to harm Bowser, no biggie. He could avoid the slow moving clown car anyway
KIRBY PROTECTING THE HELPER

• KD: Kirby, while in stone form (preferably the animal one that lets him move around from Kirby 64), jumps up to block the opponent's attacks and defend his current Helper
• Me: That form is too slow, and the attacker could simply attack to both sides of Kirby at once

Why he couldn't just use Mirror clones is beyond me. But yes, the stone form is way too slow
LUMAS TURNING INTO BLACK HOLES

• KD: They can't, since they only turn into galaxies containing them
• Me: They can, since it would make sense for them to turn into part of something they become

I don't think they can really control what they turn into, unless Lumas have really weird taste
EFFECTIVENESS OF LUMA GALAXIES

• KD: They would kill Rosalina too due to their size
• Me: They're smaller than IRL planets (which he used the size figures for), and they can help modify the terrain (or rather, add new terrain) to twist the battlefield to Rosalina's advantage

I agree with Kirby Dragons, creating a huge galaxy like that would kill Rosalina due to the massive release of energy when the galaxy forms
KIRBY SURVIVING BLACK HOLES

• KD: He can, since he survives a black hole-esque enemy in the games
• Me: That's not a real black hole, due to a lack of distortion in certain areas

To be fair neither are the ones in SMG, and if Kirby were being sucked into a black hole (somehow) he could use NInja to teleport away
OLIMAR'S SPACE TIME RIPPING POCKET KNIFE

• KD: Olimar carries a knife that is stated to rip holes in space time and this could be used in battle
• Me: That's from his journal, not WoG; Olimar is also likely going insane, since he does in Pikmin 1, and likely does the same when he's in a similar position in Pikmin 2 (the game the knife is from)

I wouldn't take Olimar serious either, he's an inch-tall madman who's set on enslaving a mostly peaceful species to get him rich (and back home to his family but you know, priorities)

Also, sorry to hear about the medical issues! Get well soon!

• 
  Thanks!

 

[Crystanium]

Speaking of armor the Fire Emblem characters can punch through even well armored foes, Ex. Radiant Dawn Ike vs a generic Begnion Sword General https://youtu.be/LMF3gQjnplo?list=PL86AE8D892CD8838A&t=104 at 1:44-1:57. @Dryn, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon What do you think about that level of strength? Does it mean Ike is stronger than Sonic (before accounting for Sonic‘s sheer speed)?

If the Begnion Sword General is covered in steel, then damage done on the armor might indicate greater strength, but then again, Ike could be hitting an exposed area.

You're welcome, Nerdicon.

 

[Munomario777]

I disagree with both of you, here's a video showcasing the highest possible speed of each vehicle. (21:16 for wheel) alternatively he could use the Wheelie Bike which he can summon via Wheel ability[/quote]
I see. Does this require the "revving up" that vehicles in Air Ride seem to need?

If the guy can survive Flowery Woods landing on him (which we already concluded would hurt quite a bit) he can survive a couple of spin dashes

The Spin Dash can shred through metal, and is more of a cutting deal rather than the blunt force that the Flowery Woods example presents.

Source? I don't remember the Lightspeed Attack being storable. Either way just standing in a corner and using Hypernova wouldn't even give Sonic a chance to attack physically

In Sonic Adventure and its sequel, the attack is charged by holding down a Spin Dash charge for a second or so, building up blue energy. When that point is reached, Sonic gains a blue aura and can move around freely, jump on enemies, et cetera. When the button is released, the attack is initiated.

As for the whole corner deal, remember that the arena is ten miles wide, and the characters start at the center. To get to a corner, Kirby would have to outrun Sonic for at least five miles, which isn't gone happen.

He has plenty of other feats, so this really isn't a big deal

Out of curiosity, what are these other feats?

Kirby could use Spark to send an electric charge through the metal of the Clown Car to harm Bowser, no biggie. He could avoid the slow moving clown car anyway[/quote]
Bowser's added durability would likely protect him here, especially if he's lying on his protective shell.

I'm not sure about Kirby's speed, simply because he seems to have some charge time on his fastest techniques.

Why he couldn't just use Mirror clones is beyond me. But yes, the stone form is way too slow

The point of turning into a stone is to become invincible while the helper does the fighting, which Mirror wouldn't accomplish. Also, have the clones been shown to block attacks?

I don't think they can really control what they turn into, unless Lumas have really weird taste[/quote]
They can, though. Shop Lumas ask Mario whether he wants a 1-UP or Life Mushroom, Mario feeds the Luma Star Bits, and it transforms into that mushroom. Similarly, a Luma tells Mario that they're about to turn into a Launch Star to help Mario advance, and it turns into a very well-aimed Launch Star.

I agree with Kirby Dragons, creating a huge galaxy like that would kill Rosalina due to the massive release of energy when the galaxy forms

Unless she was using a Starman or other invincibility item.

To be fair neither are the ones in SMG, and if Kirby were being sucked into a black hole (somehow) he could use NInja to teleport away[/quote]
The SMG ones show something resembling distortion and the like as opposed to the Kirby enemy's lack of any attempt to distort that area. As for Ninja, A) I'm not sure how much time Kirby would have to teleport away, and B) I'm pretty sure spaghettification would count as enough damage to knock the Copy Ability out of him.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0 FE stuff in spoilers.

Spoiler

@ ShadowLBlue

I haven’t played any of the unlocalized Fire Emblems, nor have I played Shadow Dragon or Awakening (I’ve heard it’s level design is disappointing). In regards to best map design it goes 10>7>9>8.

You should get Awakening, unless you're just one of those old school vets it's still a good game. It's my favorite in the series. And the level design isn't disappointing as much as majority of the missions are route the enemies and kill the boss so it's slightly less strategic in that sense. What really made the game for me was the cast, though I'm aware a good number of hardcore FE ppl disliked it.

Level design stuff.

You want to rank them on Level design too?

My memory isn't as good as yours regarding maps, plus I haven't played 10 and have little memory of 9, but as for the rest it goes: 6 > 7 >8 >13. 6 definitely has the best level design despite every chapter's objective being "seize the throne" so far. Very few flat maps. Maps that branch off and give you the option of separating you're army or just going as one, the disappearing tiles due to water thing...just some great variety.

I LOATHE status staves and combining FoW, status staves, high movement Wyvern riders and Manaketes must be evil. I hope you aren’t trying to train up a weak unit under these conditions.

No, quite the opposite I promoted some level 18 and 19 units just so I wouldn't have to struggle too bad. I was training a shaman but I gave up on him because dark magic just feels to inferior to anima in this game. This isn't a very friendly game for training units. Also, thankfully all the wyverns were in one area and I (accidentally) sent my level 4 sage with Rexcalibur in their range. Needless to say, she has high evade, speed and magic so she took care of a big potential headache for me.

The toughest FoW war maps in each game:

7: Hector Hard Mode Battle Before Dawn, this link sums up why I haven’t beat Hector Hard Mode yet: http://lparchive.org/Fire-Emblem-Blazing-Sword/Update 68/ . I’d love to see the looks on the faces of the fans brought in by Awakening when they see this.

I hated that map on normal mode. Who the heck puts a boss with bolting in a FoW map?? Pure evil. Killed Sain, who was trying to rescue jaffar and reach Zephiel's room to fight off foes, on my first attempt-__-

The blandness may stem from the amateur translation and a proper localization would have surely been better. It’s been 11.5 years since FE7 was released and they haven’t even tried to localize the earlier games for the Virtual Console!

Possibly, but some of the conversations are still rather short with bland topics so I imagine this game just has a mediocre cast.


And I tried Advanced Wars DS and gave up after a few chapters. It was interesting but it feels too impersonal for me compared to FE.

Thanks for summarizing the debate muno. Here's my takes on you and @ Kirby Dragons debates.

FUTURE SIGHT/SUPER SONIC

• KD: Future Sight would go "through" Super Sonic and make Sonic lose all his Rings, since it deals normal damage to Pokemon using Protect
• Me: Super Sonic simply loses a few Rings like when he's damaged in the games; it wouldn't go "through" Sonic like it does with Protect because Super Sonic is a transformation, rather than a barrier

I agree with you both. Super Sonic's never lost all of his rings from an attack, so Future Sight shouldn't remove the all either. But where I agree with KD is that it would do damage (make him lose rings) to Super Sonic.

REVOTE ON PROTECT/OTHER INVINCIBILITIES CLAUSE

• KD: Yes, because someone changed their mind and we revoted the whole Chao Garden thing
• Me: No, because the Chao Garden thing was based on the lack of a formal system at the time of the original vote (plus, someone changing their mind isn't a reason to do a revote a few days later)

So KD want's a revote because he dislikes the current rule? BTW what is the current rule.

WHEEL KIRBY SPEED

• KD: ~40 mph, since that's the speed required to go across the surface of water (citation needed)
• Me: As fast as we see it travel, since real life physics =/= our own (including hydroplaning speed), plus the whole "Magic Boomerang" rule

Agreed with muno. Not saying Wheel Kirby can't go 40mph, but I wouldn't use it going across water as proof.

CATCHING WHEEL KIRBY

• Me: Many characters show superhuman leg strength (particularly in jumping), and athletes can run at ~20 mph, so said characters would naturally exceed that speed and be able to catch Wheel Kirby
• KD: Opposing the above, saying that leg strength =/= running speed

Siding with KD, leg strength doesn't equal running speed. Just because some one jumps high doesn't necessarily mean they can run fast. Although I think most of the cast should be able to run several miles faster than the average elite athlete.

META KNIGHT CLONE

• KD: The Meta Knight clone summoned by a certain Copy Ability (which just attacks onscreen enemies in-game) could do anything Kirby wants him to, since attacking the enemies was Kirby's intention
• Me: There's no indication that Kirby told the Meta Knight clone to attack like that, so he should be limited to doing just that

• I'm with KD, but with caveat MK doesn't stay any longer than he does when summoned in game. So if he wants to make MK use mach tornado instead of a flurry of rushes that's fine, as an example.

KIRBY VS SONIC'S SPIN ATTACK

• KD: Kirby could survive Sonic's spinball attack because he shows durability in the games
• Me: He can be harmed by stationary spikes, so spinning ones would hurt him as well

Don't understand the disagreement here. Is KD saying he'd be invulnerable to spin attack?

KIRBY VS SONIC'S LIGHT SPEED ATTACK

• KD: Kirby could inhale Sonic via Hypernova and react in time due to LSA's charge time
• Me: The charge can be stored and used instantaneously; during the charge time, Sonic can run around and do whatever he wants, leaving Kirby no time to react

This seems like an obvious advantage on your side. Sonic runs away, charges LSA, and comes back and uses it whenever he wants. Sonic's way faster than warp star.

KIRBY'S OVERALL DURABILITY

• KD: He survived the explosion at the end of Triple Deluxe
• Me: That was caused by Kirby, so it's due to the game mechanic of friendly fire (or lack thereof); plus, he gets hurt by everything else in the games

We agreed to use the HP system, so I don't think Kirby can survive any attacks that aren't OHKO.

KIRBY VS CLOWN CAR

• KD: Bowser trapping Kirby underneath the Clown Car would be futile because he could squeeze under by flattening himself
• Me: Kirby needs to be crushed to flatten himself, which wouldn't happen here since Bowser is placing Kirby in the center, between the walls as opposed to underneath them

When has Kirby ever been flattened by an attack then moved. Just because he can become flat doesn't mean he move while being crushed.

KIRBY PROTECTING THE HELPER

• KD: Kirby, while in stone form (preferably the animal one that lets him move around from Kirby 64), jumps up to block the opponent's attacks and defend his current Helper
• Me: That form is too slow, and the attacker could simply attack to both sides of Kirby at once

Stone form is too slow any almost all of the cast would kill them in one hit. Two at most for weak attacks.

LUMAS TURNING INTO BLACK HOLES

• KD: They can't, since they only turn into galaxies containing them
• Me: They can, since it would make sense for them to turn into part of something they become

Agree with muno.

EFFECTIVENESS OF LUMA GALAXIES

• KD: They would kill Rosalina too due to their size
• Me: They're smaller than IRL planets (which he used the size figures for), and they can help modify the terrain (or rather, add new terrain) to twist the battlefield to Rosalina's advantage

Agree with muno.

KIRBY SURVIVING BLACK HOLES

• KD: He can, since he survives a black hole-esque enemy in the games
• Me: That's not a real black hole, due to a lack of distortion in certain areas

Kirby can go stone to keep from getting sucked in, so agree with KD.

Also I just got Tales of Vesperia and despite some flaws in the battle system (makes me love Xenoblade Chronicles SO much more than I already do @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 . Arguably the best action RPG battle system ), I still love it. So between that and finishing FE6 ( I get my laptop back tomorrow) I'll probably still post infrequently.

Also get well/stay well @ Nerdicon !

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Yes, that's what I meant.

Well, Mewtwo's attacks are pretty strong.

The ones that affect Super Sonic (AKA the ones not blocked by Protect) would make him lose a few Rings. We shouldn't assume anything based on attack stats alone.

All the characters that hit and damage Super Sonic make him lose Rings, because they have high offensive power. We should also note that these are final bosses. Mewtwo has been a final boss as well.

Do you have proof that they would still affect Super Sonic?

That was the proof.

And Sonic would be Super Sonic by this point, so it wouldn't.

The telekinesis would still work on him anyways.

What kind of things? Have they tried to resist the TK, and if so, with what sort of force?

It used telekinesis on Pokeballs, also it used TK on an island once. Neither of these are animate, so obviously they didn't try to resist it, but islands are extremely heavy, so I'm guessing Super Sonic would have to provide more force than one if he wants to break out.

It's best to have it in a formal system, so I called for a revote. We already have the thing you're asking for in a formal system, so a revote isn't necessary.

We don't have the thing we're voting for in a formal system, it hasn't been added to the list of rules yet.

"I clicked really quickly and this happened" is not proof.

There's more to it than that.

Then we use that speed.

Which is pretty much the speed of a tank (jeep, actually, like Godwin said).

They jump much higher than average humans (and the others I listed achieve high speeds via other methods).

See below.

Yes: 11
No: 3 (although I wasn't really using jumping height for these anyway)
Yes has more than No, so Yes has the most out of the two.

My point was that most of the Smash characters can't catch Wheel Kirby, like you said they could. You proved , you tried to prove , and you never proved .

Why is that? Quite a few of these characters don't flinch when hit (for instance, Mario and co.), and those that do could probably shrug off an eight-inch guy attacking them.

A lot of those Helpers are much bigger than that, and even so, a projectile in their face would stop them from seeing.

I see. Still, I don't see how this would severely hinder Charizard.

Jumping into Marx can send him flying miles away to another planet, something similar would happen to Charizard.

What do you mean?

In some of the games, Wheel Kirby doesn't have charge time, so he can decide to not have charge time here. A similar scenario is Mario jumping on his enemy's heads. In the Paper Mario games, it takes Flower Points, but it doesn't in some games, so Mario can choose not to use Flower Points to do that.

High jumping = high leg strength = fast running.

You said that Bowser had quick jumps, not high jumps.

How so? It zooms off of the screen at relatively high speeds.

I watched it again and I agree now, it just seemed slow the first time.

A) Then why should we assume he travels at the speed you mentioned?
B) Similarly, I'd imagine Wheel Kirby's rotation plays a key factor here (not to mention his rather small size).

A) Because he has been seen moving at those speeds.
B) A rollerskate is small and has wheels, it can't drive over water.

By the way, where are you getting that speed requirement from?

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&q=how fast do you have to be to run on water&oq=how fast do you have to be to &gs_l=serp.1.0.0l10.323556.328763.0.330413.34.20.1.13.13.0.237.2028.11j8j1.20.0.msedr...0...1c.1.64.serp..1.33.2066.0.C9BOYRIcj8U
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&q=30 meters a second to miles per hour&oq=30 me&gs_l=serp.1.0.35i39j0l9.28411.28945.0.30293.5.5.0.0.0.0.143.558.3j2.5.0.msedr...0...1c.1.64.serp..0.5.556.64rRS8wNNoQ

It's possible, but not proven.

It's also not proven that Meta Knight was the one who intended himself to attack.

For extra durability. Sonic can tear through even these robots, so Robotnik added shields in hopes of protecting the robots against Sonic.

The reason Sonic can tear through them is because they lack durability in the first place.

And releasing it instantly? Sonic can store the charge and do whatever he wants while holding it.

Kirby wouldn't have to react if he's already inhaling.

Not that quickly.

Then a Helper (riding an Air Ride vehicle for extreme speed) pushes Sonic in to make the process go faster.

Sectonia exploding was caused by Kirby's attack.

But, it was not Kirby's attack. And again, if it could launch Kirby, it wasn't like you said it was.

And he was hurt by about a hundred other things. Many enemies, obstacles, etc. harming Kirby > one instance where he survives.

No matter how inconsistent.

How would he do that exactly?

Pushing his arm into the slit between the Clown Car and the ground, popping it out the other side, and pulling himself to pop out.

Kirby must remove his current Copy Ability to create a Helper. If Kirby discards Stone, he can't guard. If he switches and discards the new ability, he's not guarding anymore.

Then he becomes Stone Kirby again.

When did I ever imply that?

You said that Marx's force was the force we should calculate. Kirby was the one providing the force.

And naturally, they could also turn into just a black hole. I don't see why they couldn't.

Because Lumas can't turn into part of a transformation.

Fair enough. I don't think this would matter too much anyways though, since a black hole with a galaxy attached to it is still a black hole that could kill Kirby.

Lumas can't control where they put their black holes.

• Because it lacks that power/because the bosses are too big.
• Because they run out of energy.
• Because it's short.

These all have logical explanations, whereas the Luma example doesn't (at least not one that I can think of). It doesn't seem to be a lack of control, due to the precise level design and all.

Pokemon running out of PP is not the same as them running out of energy, for several reasons.

• There have been 45 games or so, none of them suggest this.
• You can't run out of energy to use a weak fire (Ember) and then be able to use a strong one (Blast Burn).
• Arceus' Cut is much more powerful than the Cut of another Pokemon. Both Cuts take the same amount of PP. This wouldn't happen if PP was energy.
• A flying Pokemon can still fly without PP for Fly.
• A person without any energy left dies. This doesn't happen when a Pokemon is out of PP.

No, because it otherwise has all of the properties of a black hole, such as distortion. The origin is irrelevant if the end result is the same.

Schwarz's black holes have the properties of black holes too. Distortion, classification, and suction.

Small details can make all the difference.

Not if the small detail is something in the design. Kirby gameplay doesn't have any sort of shading or whatever, so that's why there is no distortion in the Schwarz's face.

Oh wow, that's pretty small. Nevermind about the "crushing everyone into oblivion" thing.

I don't see why destroying it would be necessary.

They don't have a choice on that.

No, we're using the most common example in the case of a contradiction. In one instance, Kirby survives an explosion. 100+ times, he's hurt by attacks. Naturally, we go with the latter.

It's different when it comes to something like a stat. Pikachu's Defense stat is usually lower than its maximum Defense stat, yet there are more instances when Pikachu takes lots of damage from something as opposed to a bit of damage from something. Same situation here.

Why would inhaling above Kirby hinder Sonic, and when does Paint blind enemies?

Sonic would teleport above Kirby, and Paint can blind bosses.

Wrong. It's a claim. Olimar is claiming that the knife has effects on spacetime, and claims must be proven to have relevance.

Sales Pitch and the name of the knife back it up heavily, also it hasn't been disproven anywhere.

It was Olimar reading scanner data. We can assume this because in games like Pikmin 3, objects are scanned by the ship. In fact, now that I think about it, isn't Olimar's ship damaged in the game the knife is in?

It was Olimar's observation, same with all things that go into Olimar's journal.

If the ship was damaged, either the scanner wouldn't have worked at all, or it would've worked just fine because only the engine was affected. Crashing the scanner would've destroyed the scanner.

Oh, so it's not in the original Japanese version? In that case, I'm not sure we should treat it as canon.

Why not?

Olimar is insane because he's trapped on an alien planet. In Pikmin 2, he's trapped on an alien planet and likely insane again.

He shows no such insanity in Pikmin 2, however, he operates just fine.

@ Nerdicon
The rule was if all invincibility items/techniques (Super Sonic, Protect, Invincibility Candy, Brief Invincibility, Starman, etc.) would be treated as blocking the same things.

I said no, because all of those things (besides Protect) have only been shown blocking damage and not things like Trick or Skill Swap that have other effects that the items haven't been said to block. Do you have a vote?

So KD want's a revote because he dislikes the current rule? BTW what is the current rule.

The rule was the invincibility rule. I called for a revote because Muno previously called for a revote on the 999,999 Rings rule, and if most of us don't like a rule, we should be able to change it. Minds have been changed since then.

That’s not a tank (tanks use trends and fully rotatable armored turrets), it’s a jeep with a large cannon of some sort attached. It’s likely faster than a tank as well.

Interesting.

Are you saying steel shields can block sonic’s attacks? I guess we have to drop Sonic down the tier list due to many fighters wearing armor. Speaking of armor the Fire Emblem characters can punch through even well armored foes, Ex. Radiant Dawn Ike vs a generic Begnion Sword General https://youtu.be/LMF3gQjnplo?list=PL86AE8D892CD8838A&t=104 at 1:44-1:57. @Dryn, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon What do you think about that level of strength? Does it mean Ike is stronger than Sonic (before accounting for Sonic‘s sheer speed)?

I don't know of any physical strength feats for Sonic, so I'd say yes.

Plot Armor and he never seems to be in danger when regular enemies and bosses from his games explode.

If it was plot armor, Kirby wouldn't have been launched.

I was referring to you saying that the average combatant has a radii of 2 feet which is ridiculous (I don’t think Bowser skews things that much).

Oh, yeah, I meant diameter on that one.

Against which opponents does Protean give Greninja an insurmountable advantage against (perhaps we can come up with counter arguments)?

We would have to see a Type Effectiveness chart to determine that.

 

[Nerdicon]

@ Nerdicon
The rule was if all invincibility items/techniques (Super Sonic, Protect, Invincibility Candy, Brief Invincibility, Starman, etc.) would be treated as blocking the same things.

I said no, because all of those things (besides Protect) have only been shown blocking damage and not things like Trick or Skill Swap that have other effects that the items haven't been said to block. Do you have a vote?

I disagree with this rule as different invincibility techniques have different weaknesses (I was going to do an analysis on this actually) I'll leave my specific thoughts for said analysis but for now just know my vote is no

 

[Crystanium]

While I already have an idea of the temperature of the plasma beams in the Metroid Prime trilogy, my analyses of the metals and alloys in the series has produced some results. Two types of enemies in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption stand out. These are the tinbots and the steambots. Tinbots presumably are made of tin. They are light and the plasma beam makes quick work of them. Tin has a melting point of 231.93°C. As these tinbots are melting, the metal puddle beneath them is bright white. (The plasma beam is white already.) The steambots have a color that looks reddish orange, a color found only from few metals. Copper is one of these metals with a melting point of 1,084.62°C.

I'm not sure what other types of alloys are in the Metroidverse that are like ours. There is Jovian steel, but I suspect this is a type of steel grade produced on planet Jovia. There is Jovian steel on planet Norion and is used for the construction of the Galactic Federation base. I cannot say if the plasma beam can actually melt it because video games will allow destruction for certain targets, but if not, we'd know that Jovian steel has a higher melting point.

 

[Munomario777]

Thanks for summarizing the debate muno. Here's my takes on you and @ Kirby Dragons debates.

No problem!

I agree with you both. Super Sonic's never lost all of his rings from an attack, so Future Sight shouldn't remove the all either. But where I agree with KD is that it would do damage (make him lose rings) to Super Sonic.

My stance exactly.

So KD want's a revote because he dislikes the current rule? BTW what is the current rule.

Yes, from what I can gather. The rule is the thing about the invincibility from various series being treated as equal unless otherwise proven.

Siding with KD, leg strength doesn't equal running speed. Just because some one jumps high doesn't necessarily mean they can run fast. Although I think most of the cast should be able to run several miles faster than the average elite athlete.

They both depend on leg strength, so I don't see why they wouldn't indicate the other.

I'm with KD, but with caveat MK doesn't stay any longer than he does when summoned in game. So if he wants to make MK use mach tornado instead of a flurry of rushes that's fine, as an example.

Worth noting is that this isn't actually Meta Knight; it seems to be a clone. That means that we shouldn't associate all of MK's abilities with the clone unless there's another reason to do so.

Don't understand the disagreement here. Is KD saying he'd be invulnerable to spin attack?

I think he's saying that he could survive a few of them.

When has Kirby ever been flattened by an attack then moved. Just because he can become flat doesn't mean he move while being crushed.

Very true, assuming he could get flattened here in the first place.

Kirby can go stone to keep from getting sucked in, so agree with KD.

Black holes rely on gravity rather than actual auction, and Stone increases Kirby's gravity.

Well, Mewtwo's attacks are pretty strong.

And yet they're blocked by Protect.

All the characters that hit and damage Super Sonic make him lose Rings, because they have high offensive power.

And he only loses fifteen Rings maximum.

We should also note that these are final bosses. Mewtwo has been a final boss as well.

I fail to see how this is relevant.

That was the proof.

"Holding things in place" isn't much proof for this.

The telekinesis would still work on him anyways.

Super Sonic is great at breaking out of his opponents' grasp. Unfortunately, we don't see Sonic fighting Silver, the hedgehog with TK, but we do see Sonic struggling to escape Robotnik's mech and then using Super Sonic to escape with ease.

It used telekinesis on Pokeballs, also it used TK on an island once. Neither of these are animate, so obviously they didn't try to resist it, but islands are extremely heavy, so I'm guessing Super Sonic would have to provide more force than one if he wants to break out.

Aside from the above points, Chaos Control would also work.

We don't have the thing we're voting for in a formal system, it hasn't been added to the list of rules yet.

I was referring to the method of voting. Still, the reason it isn't in a list is because one hasn't been compiled since the end of the vote.

There's more to it than that.

You didn't prove anything more.

Which is pretty much the speed of a tank (jeep, actually, like Godwin said).

Care to prove this?

See below.

My point was that most of the Smash characters can't catch Wheel Kirby, like you said they could. You proved , you tried to prove , and you never proved .

I don't recall saying that most of the cast could do this, but I apologize for the misunderstanding if I did.

A lot of those Helpers are much bigger than that, and even so, a projectile in their face would stop them from seeing.

How large are said Helpers?

What type of projectile are you referring to, and how would it impede vision?

Jumping into Marx can send him flying miles away to another planet, something similar would happen to Charizard.

Does this happen to other enemies, or just Marx? Also, is he as large as a Charizard?

In some of the games, Wheel Kirby doesn't have charge time, so he can decide to not have charge time here. A similar scenario is Mario jumping on his enemy's heads. In the Paper Mario games, it takes Flower Points, but it doesn't in some games, so Mario can choose not to use Flower Points to do that.

The only time it's specified that Kirby travels at that speed is also when he has to rev up. In other words, Kirby hasn't travelled at those speeds without first revving up. Mario has jumped without using FP.

You said that Bowser had quick jumps, not high jumps.

That was unrelated to the running vs jumping deal.

A) Because he has been seen moving at those speeds.
B) A rollerskate is small and has wheels, it can't drive over water.

A) No, we haven't (at least not outside of Air Ride).
B) Roller skates are also heavier and not self-propelled.

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&q=how fast do you have to be to run on water&oq=how fast do you have to be to &gs_l=serp.1.0.0l10.323556.328763.0.330413.34.20.1.13.13.0.237.2028.11j8j1.20.0.msedr...0...1c.1.64.serp..1.33.2066.0.C9BOYRIcj8U
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&q=30 meters a second to miles per hour&oq=30 me&gs_l=serp.1.0.35i39j0l9.28411.28945.0.30293.5.5.0.0.0.0.143.558.3j2.5.0.msedr...0...1c.1.64.serp..0.5.556.64rRS8wNNoQ

That's for a grown man, not an eight-inch Kirby.

It's also not proven that Meta Knight was the one who intended himself to attack.

I'd imagine it was his intent, since he attacked.

The reason Sonic can tear through them is because they lack durability in the first place.

Or because, you know, he's a living buzzsaw travelling at supersonic speeds.

Kirby wouldn't have to react if he's already inhaling.

Sonic attacks from behind, and Kirby must react in time to turn around.

Then a Helper (riding an Air Ride vehicle for extreme speed) pushes Sonic in to make the process go faster.

A) Have Helpers ridden Air Rides before?
B) Chaos Control.
C) Seeing as how Sonic's fastest running option, the Boost, plows through enemies, this would be ineffective.

But, it was not Kirby's attack. And again, if it could launch Kirby, it wasn't like you said it was.

Kirby shot a beam, and Kirby's beam attack caused an explosion.

No matter how inconsistent.

Since when?

Pushing his arm into the slit between the Clown Car and the ground, popping it out the other side, and pulling himself to pop out.

Has he done this before?

Then he becomes Stone Kirby again.

He's still creating a window for the opponent to attack him.

You said that Marx's force was the force we should calculate. Kirby was the one providing the force.

Kirby provided the force to push Marx, whereas Marx (or something explosive on the planet) provided the explosion force.

Because Lumas can't turn into part of a transformation.

Let's look a bit deeper into this, shall we? Galaxies in Super Mario Galaxy often consist of the following:

• Planetoids
• Launch Stars
• 1-UP Mushrooms and other power-ups
• Star Bits

So, if Lumas can turn into a part of the galaxies, these would be prime candidates. Can they? Well, yes! Let's take a look:

• Planetoids: Yes; they turn into planetoids within galaxies.
• Launch Stars: Yes; they turn into Launch Stars with in galaxies.
• 1-UP Mushrooms: Yes; via the Luma Shop.
• Star Bits: Yes, sort of; they can fire Star Bits from a reserve, which would presumably be the Star Bits you feed the Luma to make it transform.

Presumably, they could also turn into black holes then.

Lumas can't control where they put their black holes.

What makes you say that?

Pokemon running out of PP is not the same as them running out of energy, for several reasons.

• There have been 45 games or so, none of them suggest this.
• You can't run out of energy to use a weak fire (Ember) and then be able to use a strong one (Blast Burn).
• Arceus' Cut is much more powerful than the Cut of another Pokemon. Both Cuts take the same amount of PP. This wouldn't happen if PP was energy.
• A flying Pokemon can still fly without PP for Fly.
• A person without any energy left dies. This doesn't happen when a Pokemon is out of PP.

• We don't need something spelled out for us if we can logically conclude that it's the case.
• Different energy reserves for different moves. It's like how an airliner could run out of fuel for one engine but continue to run the other.
• Arceus has a power reserve that scales with the damage the attacks deal.
• Fly only takes PP in battles because that's the only time that it deals damage. If the move is only used halfway (i.e. only flying up, like in the overworld), the PP is not reduced.
• I could have insufficient energy to punch, yet I wouldn't die as a result. Also, see bullet point #2.

Schwarz's black holes have the properties of black holes too. Distortion, classification, and suction.

Real black holes don't have a lack of distortion near the singularity.

Not if the small detail is something in the design. Kirby gameplay doesn't have any sort of shading or whatever, so that's why there is no distortion in the Schwarz's face.

I don't see how a detail being part of the design makes it irrelevant; in that case, Kirby surviving being crushed is irrelevant.

We see a clear "distortion" effect around the mouth, so I don't see why this wouldn't be applied to the face as well.

They don't have a choice on that.

Why is that?

It's different when it comes to something like a stat. Pikachu's Defense stat is usually lower than its maximum Defense stat, yet there are more instances when Pikachu takes lots of damage from something as opposed to a bit of damage from something. Same situation here.

Since when does Kirby have a defense stat?

Sonic would teleport above Kirby, and Paint can blind bosses.

I don't see why Sonic couldn't just teleport to the side, or throw out a projectile attack like Sonic Wind.

Sonic seems to be fine without seeing, at least with the Homing Attack/other homing techniques. After all, he is spinning around at high speeds and all.

Sales Pitch and the name of the knife back it up heavily, also it hasn't been disproven anywhere.

Sales Pitch is from the damaged ship, and the name is from Olimar.

Your "it hasn't been disproven" argument is an argument from ignorance.

It was Olimar's observation, same with all things that go into Olimar's journal.

Do we see the observation? If not, I don't see why we should assume it exists.

If the ship was damaged, either the scanner wouldn't have worked at all, or it would've worked just fine because only the engine was affected. Crashing the scanner would've destroyed the scanner.

A copy of a game can be corrupted and still play, just not quite as intended.

Why not?

It's made by the localization team, not the original creator(s).

He shows no such insanity in Pikmin 2, however, he operates just fine.

He's shown it before in this exact same scenario.

I don't know of any physical strength feats for Sonic, so I'd say yes.

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog#Physical_abilities

If it was plot armor, Kirby wouldn't have been launched.

Plot armor protects the character from dying, or something similar. Kirby didn't die, so it worked.

I disagree with this rule as different invincibility techniques have different weaknesses (I was going to do an analysis on this actually) I'll leave my specific thoughts for said analysis but for now just know my vote is no

The rule would only apply if there isn't a contradiction (i.e. Starman can die to lava, whereas Super Sonic cannot, so it doesn't apply), or if the invincibility in question hasn't been shown with that kind of attack (for instance, Starman hasn't been shown with a psychic attack, and Protect has, so we use Protect's data on Starman). Do you have a different opinion in light of the additional clarification?

 

[Crystanium]

They both depend on leg strength, so I don't see why they wouldn't indicate the other.

Grammar and math both depend on using your brain, but it doesn't mean that if you understand one, you'll understand the other. As I said before, the link stated the correlation is uncertain. Let's work with what each character can do.

Black holes rely on gravity rather than actual auction, and Stone increases Kirby's gravity.

Do you mean density?

What's going on about this discussion of a black hole?

 

[Munomario777]

Grammar and math both depend on using your brain, but it doesn't mean that if you understand one, you'll understand the other. As I said before, the link stated the correlation is uncertain. Let's work with what each character can do.

Math and science are learned over time, whereas running and jumping are natural abilities. Math and science use different parts of the brain (as in, connections between neurons formed when you learn something), whereas running and jumping both use the same leg muscles.

Do you mean density?

No, I mean the fact that a black hole relies on gravity. Stone might help for suction/blowing effects that rely on air, but becoming heavier would only make him more susceptible to gravitational fields.

What's going on about this discussion of a black hole?

Shadow is pointing out this enemy, called a Schwarz:

This enemy sucks Kirby(s) in to deal damage. He's saying that this is a black hole because some in-game character says so and it sucks things in, while I'm saying that it's not due to the lack of distortion around the mouth area along with the other differences (or at least, it's not similar to a real black hole). Kirby can escape the pull of this enemy (represented by the purple area), so this is rather crucial to the Kirby vs. Rosalina matchup.

 

[Crystanium]

Math and science are learned over time, whereas running and jumping are natural abilities. Math and science use different parts of the brain (as in, connections between neurons formed when you learn something), whereas running and jumping both use the same leg muscles.

There's a few incorrect things here. First, I suspect you've never raised a child, meaning you likely lack the knowledge about running and jumping. Toddlers don't know how to jump. They have to learn. It's quite funny to watch, actually. Second, anything that involves learning means there is going to be a change in a neural pathway. It doesn't matter if it's running and jumping or grammar and math. You may say running and jumping are natural, but so is learning, which is what you need to be able to do in order to know grammar and math.

Leg muscles cannot function without the brain, just like eyes cannot function without the brain. In order to strengthen your legs, you need to use them. In order to strengthen your brain, you need to use it. The lack of either will lead to atrophy (or Alzheimer's for the brain). So when I say that your brain can learn grammar and math, and that learning one doesn't mean you'll be better at the other, it's for the same reason that running faster or jumping higher do not necessarily mean one will improve the other. If you run very fast, you can jump farther, but only because of the momentum.

No, I mean the fact that a black hole relies on gravity. Stone might help for suction/blowing effects that rely on air, but becoming heavier would only make him more susceptible to gravitational fields.

Ah, I see. Funnily, it's for the same reason that the stone ability will aid Kirby.

Shadow is pointing out this enemy, called a Schwarz:

This enemy sucks Kirby(s) in to deal damage. He's saying that this is a black hole because some in-game character says so and it sucks things in, while I'm saying that it's not due to the lack of distortion around the mouth area along with the other differences (or at least, it's not similar to a real black hole). Kirby can escape the pull of this enemy (represented by the purple area), so this is rather crucial to the Kirby vs. Rosalina matchup.

You can watch it here. I'd have to agree with you that Schwarz does not behave like a black hole as we know it. Marx actually shows more of a realistic looking black hole than Schwarz. If the size of that black hole is about the size of Kirby, then using M = cr^2 / G would mean that the black hole has a mass 4.56 * 10^12 metric tons. I don't think you can escape that black hole if you're in the event horizon. So there's been better black hole feats, which Kirby cannot escape.

 

[Munomario777]

There's a few incorrect things here. First, I suspect you've never raised a child, meaning you likely lack the knowledge about running and jumping. Toddlers don't know how to jump. They have to learn. It's quite funny to watch, actually. Second, anything that involves learning means there is going to be a change in a neural pathway. It doesn't matter if it's running and jumping or grammar and math. You may say running and jumping are natural, but so is learning, which is what you need to be able to do in order to know grammar and math.

Leg muscles cannot function without the brain, just like eyes cannot function without the brain. In order to strengthen your legs, you need to use them. In order to strengthen your brain, you need to use it. The lack of either will lead to atrophy (or Alzheimer's for the brain). So when I say that your brain can learn grammar and math, and that learning one doesn't mean you'll be better at the other, it's for the same reason that running faster or jumping higher do not necessarily mean one will improve the other. If you run very fast, you can jump farther, but only because of the momentum.

What I meant by "natural" is "learnt naturally". A toddler will most likely learn running and jumping naturally, but it's very unlikely that this will happen with math and science. In retrospect however, this isn't very relevant.

Jumping and running both rely on the strength of the same leg muscles, so high jumping indicates strong leg muscles, which also powers running. Math and science use separate neuron connections in the brain, meaning that they don't necessarily reflect one another.

Ah, I see. Funnily, it's for the same reason that the stone ability will aid Kirby.

You can watch it here. I'd have to agree with you that Schwarz does not behave like a black hole as we know it. Marx actually shows more of a realistic looking black hole than Schwarz. If the size of that black hole is about the size of Kirby, then using M = cr^2 / G would mean that the black hole has a mass 4.56 * 10^12 metric tons. I don't think you can escape that black hole if you're in the event horizon. So there's been better black hole feats, which Kirby cannot escape.

I doubt that that's a real black hole, if only because Stone can negate its pull IIRC, and since black holes rely on intense gravity, increasing Kirby's weight with Stone wouldn't really work out too well.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

If the Begnion Sword General is covered in steel, then damage done on the armor might indicate greater strength, but then again, Ike could be hitting an exposed area.

Those are just Ike’s normal blows so that General is getting the full protection of his armor (a critical blow would only injure him three times as badly). If you had say a dagger wielding Rogue attack that same General you would be lucky to do any damage at all to him even with critical blows. If you want to get a better idea of Ike’s upper body strength then these in game portraits can help: POR Ike http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/File:IkeFE9Portrait_Ranger.png and the noticeably buffer RD Ike http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/File:IkeFE10Portrait_Hero.png.

@ ShadowLBlue

Spoiler: replies to ShadowLBlue

You should get Awakening, unless you're just one of those old school vets it's still a good game. It's my favorite in the series. And the level design isn't disappointing as much as majority of the missions are route the enemies and kill the boss so it's slightly less strategic in that sense. What really made the game for me was the cast, though I'm aware a good number of hardcore FE ppl disliked it.

Rout not Route. I would have bought Awakening years ago if it wasn’t behind the pay wall of a 3DS (I’d rather spend my limited funds on a Wii U for Smash, Mario Kart and Xenoblade X). The only way I’d get it anytime soon is if I could get a cheap used 3DS like how I got my regular DS.

My memory isn't as good as yours regarding maps, plus I haven't played 10 and have little memory of 9, but as for the rest it goes: 6 > 7 >8 >13. 6 definitely has the best level design despite every chapter's objective being "seize the throne" so far. Very few flat maps. Maps that branch off and give you the option of separating you're army or just going as one, the disappearing tiles due to water thing...just some great variety.

It sounds like FE6 came up with all the map gimmicks (appearing and disappearing bridges, poison gas jets and hotspots) that FE7 and FE8 copied.

No, quite the opposite I promoted some level 18 and 19 units just so I wouldn't have to struggle too bad. I was training a shaman but I gave up on him because dark magic just feels to inferior to anima in this game. This isn't a very friendly game for training units. Also, thankfully all the wyverns were in one area and I (accidentally) sent my level 4 sage with Rexcalibur in their range. Needless to say, she has high evade, speed and magic so she took care of a big potential headache for me.

There is no Rexcalibur in FE6, do you mean Aircalibur? That level 4 Sage was Lilina, right (I have heard she was good due to a strong magic growth)? Sages are amazing in the GBA games but they got nerfed hard in Radiant Dawn due to having the same movement range as Generals and having both poor speed growths and caps.

I hated that map on normal mode. Who the heck puts a boss with bolting in a FoW map?? Pure evil. Killed Sain, who was trying to rescue jaffar and reach Zephiel's room to fight off foes, on my first attempt-__-

I found another video you might like as well about that level in Fire Emblem 7 (warning late game Fire Emblem 6 spoilers in the last few minutes of this video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnZulWumiig

And I tried Advanced Wars DS and gave up after a few chapters. It was interesting but it feels too impersonal for me compared to FE.

The DS version of Advance Wars is easy compared to the original. If you thought FoW, status staves, Wyvern riders and Manaketes on a desert map were bad, well look at this mission from Advance Wars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FYEUlCgbI

Are you aware of the nature of True Hit in the Fire Emblem games http://serenesforest.net/general/true-hit/?

I’ve been thinking, would you say that the Fire Emblem games have educational value especially for things like Algebra and judging probability (I would imagine my math skills would have deteriorated without playing all those Fire Emblem games to keep me sharp)?

I wonder what a collaboration between Intelligent Systems and Monolith Soft on a Fire Emblem game would look like (Sci-fi Emblem)?

If you have a PS3 or a strong enough PC you can always give Valkyria Chronicles a chance. It’s my favorite game alongside Xenoblade Chronicles from last generation and one of the few games that can compete with Fire Emblem when it comes to Unit personality and strategy.

Also I just got Tales of Vesperia and despite some flaws in the battle system (makes me love Xenoblade Chronicles SO much more than I already do @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 . Arguably the best action RPG battle system ), I still love it. So between that and finishing FE6 ( I get my laptop back tomorrow) I'll probably still post infrequently.

Well those repairs were faster than expected! Be sure to come back every now and then.

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog#Physical_abilities

Sonic is an annoying Gary Stu. Why does he always have to be better than everyone!? I can name multiple Sega characters that are better than him!

 

[Munomario777]

Sonic is an annoying Gary Stu. Why does he always have to be better than everyone!? I can name multiple Sega characters that are better than him!

Shadow is theoretically more powerful (basically Sonic + Chaos Powers), but he lacks the feats that Sonic boasts, as well as things like reaction time, items, etc., and he's a bit too arrogant at times. The same thing applies to Silver (the hedgehog with psychic abilities including TK, energy blasts, and creating giant meteors made of the environment), but he's not as fast, etc. as Sonic either.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Shadow is theoretically more powerful (basically Sonic + Chaos Powers), but he lacks the feats that Sonic boasts, as well as things like reaction time, items, etc., and he's a bit too arrogant at times. The same thing applies to Silver (the hedgehog with psychic abilities including TK, energy blasts, and creating giant meteors made of the environment), but he's not as fast, etc. as Sonic either.

So you agree with me? That's unexpected! Now go make a canon tier list for characters in a theoretical Sega Smash Siblings game (which could be a fun topic in it's own right)!

 

[Munomario777]

So you agree with me? That's unexpected! Now go make a canon tier list for characters in a theoretical Sega Smash Siblings game (which could be a fun topic in it's own right)!

It's hard to say for sure who's stronger, since Shadow is said to be the "ultimate life form", but Sonic far surpasses him as far as feats go (he defeated a deity of destruction with no Chaos Emeralds).

 

[Crystanium]

This is the second time you mentioned science, even though I never mentioned that. Toddlers learn how to count and learn letters and words. This is naturally learned. You're trying to aim for professional levels, though, and if you want to start talking about professional levels, then I will apply professional levels of grammar and math.

Jumping and running both rely on the strength of the same leg muscles, so high jumping indicates strong leg muscles, which also powers running. Math and science use separate neuron connections in the brain, meaning that they don't necessarily reflect one another.

Jumping requires one to squat and then leap up, using the upper body and arms for the extra lift. Without squatting and throwing one's arms up, the jump will not be as high. While one will use arms during running, they're never used as a way to throw oneself upward against gravity. If there is a correlation between running and jumping, how do we know? I'm not sure if athletes found in studies to suggest this correlation has to do with these athletes training in both running and vertical jumping. Either way, if you're correct, how fast are each character?

I doubt that that's a real black hole, if only because Stone can negate its pull IIRC, and since black holes rely on intense gravity, increasing Kirby's weight with Stone wouldn't really work out too well.

Can the stone ability do that?

I was saying that it's funny that the stone ability relies on gravity in order to not be pulled away if Kirby is on a planet where gravity exists. Weight is mass times gravity.

 

[Munomario777]

Jumping requires one to squat and then leap up, using the upper body and arms for the extra lift. Without squatting and throwing one's arms up, the jump will not be as high. While one will use arms during running, they're never used as a way to throw oneself upward against gravity. If there is a correlation between running and jumping, how do we know? I'm not sure if athletes found in studies to suggest this correlation has to do with these athletes training in both running and vertical jumping.

Running and jumping have a similar motion, just in a different direction. You bend your legs and squat in order to jump, and a similar bending motion is made when running. They use the same motions and muscles, but in different applications.

Either way, if you're correct, how fast are each character?

The top human athletes can run at speeds exceeding 20 mph according to my sources, so the characters in question would exceed (or at least match) that speed.

Can the stone ability do that?

If I'm not mistaken.

I was saying that it's funny that the stone ability relies on gravity in order to not be pulled away if Kirby is on a planet where gravity exists. Weight is mass times gravity.

Ah.

 

[Crystanium]

The top human athletes can run at speeds exceeding 20 mph according to my sources, so the characters in question would exceed (or at least match) that speed.

Well, Luigi can charge up to run 30 m/s, since he can run on water in Super Mario 64 DS. He's a human-sized person, and that was what you looked for when I applied it to Kirby. Mario cannot do that without F.L.U.D.D. If we assume Donkey Kong runs at the speed of an actual gorilla, then he can run 20 to 25 mi/h. Patas monkeys can run up to 34 mi/h, though Diddy Kong doesn't look like one. I'm not sure how fast Mega Man runs.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, Luigi can charge up to run 30 m/s, since he can run on water in Super Mario 64 DS. He's a human-sized person, and that was what you looked for when I applied it to Kirby. Mario cannot do that without F.L.U.D.D. If we assume Donkey Kong runs at the speed of an actual gorilla, then he can run 20 to 25 mi/h. Patas monkeys can run up to 34 mi/h, though Diddy Kong doesn't look like one. I'm not sure how fast Mega Man runs.

I don't think we should use running on water as an indication of speed, mainly because of the "they travel at the speed shown unless otherwise stated" rule. Luigi is usually faster than Mario, though. I'd be fine with using gorilla/monkey standards for the Kongs. I don't think there's any official statement on Mega Man's speed, so we can just use his in-game speeds.

 

[Crystanium]

I don't think we should use running on water as an indication of speed, mainly because of the "they travel at the speed shown unless otherwise stated" rule. Luigi is usually faster than Mario, though. I'd be fine with using gorilla/monkey standards for the Kongs. I don't think there's any official statement on Mega Man's speed, so we can just use his in-game speeds.

Yet, you want to say that characters in question can exceed 20 mi/h, even though we don't see that. I'm not going to work with that rule.

 

[Munomario777]

Yet, you want to say that characters in question can exceed 20 mi/h, even though we don't see that. I'm not going to work with that rule.

I'm not saying that they go at those speeds in the games. I'm saying that they potentially could run at those speeds.

If you won't work with the rules, then I won't pay attention to your arguments.

 

[Cress!]

Just going to make a point for Wii Fit Trainer (yeah I'm strange and this point might've been made already). (S)he can control the sun's energy, which would pretty much instantly melt most of the cast, besides the ones with reflectors (but would it melt the reflector or her reflected?). Samus couldn't live either, as from Metroid Prime:
While the Varia Suit can handle higher temperatures than normal, extreme heat sources and heat-based attacks are still capable of damaging the Varia Suit's shield strength.
Magma can reach a max temp of around 1,573 degrees Kelvin. The sun's surface is 5,778 degrees Kelvin. That's probably way over what the Varia suit could handle. (Couldn't find an actual number of what it can handle.)
Lol there's my small contribution.

 

[Munomario777]

Just going to make a point for Wii Fit Trainer (yeah I'm strange and this point might've been made already). (S)he can control the sun's energy, which would pretty much instantly melt most of the cast, besides the ones with reflectors (but would it melt the reflector or her reflected?). Samus couldn't live either, as from Metroid Prime:
While the Varia Suit can handle higher temperatures than normal, extreme heat sources and heat-based attacks are still capable of damaging the Varia Suit's shield strength.
Magma can reach a max temp of around 1,573 degrees Kelvin. The sun's surface is 5,778 degrees Kelvin. That's probably way over what the Varia suit could handle. (Couldn't find an actual number of what it can handle.)
Lol there's my small contribution.

When does the Trainer control the sun's energy? Smash doesn't count, since it's non-canon.

Also, welcome to the thread!

 

[Crystanium]

I'm not saying that they go at those speeds in the games. I'm saying that they potentially could run at those speeds.

If you won't work with the rules, then I won't pay attention to your arguments.

And we can potentially run 40 mi/h.

That's your choice.

 

[Munomario777]

And we can potentially run 40 mi/h.

How so? Humans cannot run at those speeds.

That's your choice.

And I'd expect it to be a rather common one, but I'll wait and see what everyone else thinks.

 

[Crystanium]

Just going to make a point for Wii Fit Trainer (yeah I'm strange and this point might've been made already). (S)he can control the sun's energy, which would pretty much instantly melt most of the cast, besides the ones with reflectors (but would it melt the reflector or her reflected?). Samus couldn't live either, as from Metroid Prime:
While the Varia Suit can handle higher temperatures than normal, extreme heat sources and heat-based attacks are still capable of damaging the Varia Suit's shield strength.
Magma can reach a max temp of around 1,573 degrees Kelvin. The sun's surface is 5,778 degrees Kelvin. That's probably way over what the Varia suit could handle. (Couldn't find an actual number of what it can handle.)
Lol there's my small contribution.

Io, one of Jupiter's moons, produced a temperature of 1700°C. Anyway, the Sun relies on radiation in order for the heat to travel from the Sun to the Earth, since space is a hard vacuum. However, on Earth, it may very well just rely on convection instead because there's a medium. The varia suit protects Samus from convection. Since Wii Fit Trainer is unharmed by the convection, then the attack would require direct contact.

However, Wii Fit Trainer's attack, Sun Worship, is an attack found only in SSB4 and is therefore, non-canon. Besides, Samus has a weapon of her own like that called sunburst, which is canon. I tested this out in Agon Wastes against the sandbats and noticed that the sunburst doesn't have to directly hit, it just needs to be close in order to kill them. Rays shoot out of the sunburst, kind of like how the rays of the Sun will kill us if we get close enough.

How so? Humans cannot run at those speeds.

Here.

 

[Munomario777]

Here.

Interesting. Still, biological human limits are different than a character demonstrating a feat.

 

[Cress!]

Well I clearly don't understand this thread.

 

[Munomario777]

Well I clearly don't understand this thread.

It's where we compare characters' abilities from their own canon (or in other words, their own games etc. that have relevance to the timeline) and pit them against each other. So for instance, we give Mario his jumping, power-ups, etc., but not his double jump from Smash since that's a non-canon game. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea behind the thread. If you have any questions, we'd be glad to answer them!

 

[Crystanium]

Interesting. Still, biological human limits are different than a character demonstrating a feat.

I know, but why stop at above 20 mi/h when we can work with 40 mi/h?