Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Crystanium]

They seem to be the same species.

Sharing the same species doesn't mean it's exactly the same. Both the ribbon snake and garter snake share the same kingdom, phylum, sub-phylum, class, order, sub-order, family, sub-family,and they can share the same genus. What's more they can look the same, though they're not.

The suit does have some biological components, and those are likely the part being affected by Phazon and thus causing the Varia suit to not quote work right. Does Samus get the Varia suit before the Phazon suit? If so, then we should see if there's anything else that may be causing this.

You acquire the varia suit before the Phazon suit. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say the varia suit doesn't work quite right. What do you mean?

According to the Metroid timeline, Metroid Prime is preceded only by Zero Mission, which features a 20% reduction in that game. This seems to mean that the Varia suit in ZM and the beginning of Prime are one in the same, but separate from the Varia suit featured throughout the rest of the series. As for Fusion, that's at the end of the timeline, so that only indicates that that game's Varia suit is different. Interestingly enough, the series is almost bookended with Samus replacing her suits.

Since Samus doesn't have the varia suit in Metroid II: Return of Samus, but instead has to acquire a new one on a different planet, it would mean it's different. No doubt, that suit doesn't even have protection from heat damage, since that wasn't necessary in the first place. Regardless of the difference of the varia and gravity suit in Metroid Fusion, even if we ignored that fact about it being from the Federation, the fact that we know the functions and damage reduction being different proves it's not the same. Regardless, all one has to do is know the law of identity to know these suits aren't the same.

Except the changes in function are negated when taking into account the lava damage found in Other M that you brought up. Also, this doesn't relate to the Varia or Gravity suits.

That's the only example, so it can be dismissed.

While it is a possibility, there's no such statement for the Varia and Gravity suits.

There doesn't need to be. It's demonstrated.

And this makes sense, since she lost her upgrades earlier in the game. However, since it takes place after the rest of the series, it doesn't have much bearing on other games.

Just like she loses her upgrades in every other game, whether by malfunction as in the case of the escape from Frigate Orpheon in Metroid Prime or willingness at the end of Metroid Prime 2: Echoes.

Of course the power suit would have multiple models, but they wouldn't necessarily all be used by Samus.

So I don't see why the same cannot be said of the varia and gravity suit. The law of identity supports my point, however.

If we count vehicles here, we shouldn't forgot Alph's Drake. Between Koppai and PNF-404 there are 279000 light years, and the Drake travels that distance 2 times. Supposing Koppai can survive about ten years from the start of Alph's journey, the Drake travels 279000 light years in 5 years. But we have to count that if Alph leave Koppai for ten years, on the planet that time is something like 2000 years. So the Drake has to travel something like hundreds of times the speed of light, and Alph can survive in this situation.

Welcome. Using simple math, if we have distance and time, we learn that the Drake would travel 1.67 × 10^13 times faster than light (55,800 c). We cannot work with that in math, though, so we'll have to work with 99% the speed of light to get an idea of what it would be like for a stationary observer. 5 years is the duration it may take for the Drake, but those back on Koppai would be observing 35.44 years.

 

[Munomario777]

Sharing the same species doesn't mean it's exactly the same. Both the ribbon snake and garter snake share the same kingdom, phylum, sub-phylum, class, order, sub-order, family, sub-family,and they can share the same genus. What's more they can look the same, though they're not.

Those two snakes don't share the same species.

You acquire the varia suit before the Phazon suit. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say the varia suit doesn't work quite right. What do you mean?

Ah, I see. I was thinking that the reduced protection was a result of the Phazon suit's corruption messing with the Varia suit. Does Samus come in contact with Phazon before acquiring the Varia suit?

Since Samus doesn't have the varia suit in Metroid II: Return of Samus, but instead has to acquire a new one on a different planet, it would mean it's different. No doubt, that suit doesn't even have protection from heat damage, since that wasn't necessary in the first place.

That would explain the speed increase, then (although it's odd that that doesn't appear in Other M and Super Metroid, which follow it in the timeline).

Regardless of the difference of the varia and gravity suit in Metroid Fusion, even if we ignored that fact about it being from the Federation, the fact that we know the functions and damage reduction being different proves it's not the same.

Yes, I acknowledged that the Fusion versions of those suits are separate from the rest of the series in my post.

Regardless, all one has to do is know the law of identity to know these suits aren't the same.

Things can change over time (or due to gameplay purposes and all).

That's the only example, so it can be dismissed.

Except it's not. All of these discrepancies are the examples of the suits' functions changing from game to game.

There doesn't need to be. It's demonstrated.

And that demonstration falls under the same category as the whole Other M lava deal.

Just like she loses her upgrades in every other game, whether by malfunction as in the case of the escape from Frigate Orpheon in Metroid Prime or willingness at the end of Metroid Prime 2: Echoes.

Doesn't Samus only return Aether technology at the end of Prime 2?

So I don't see why the same cannot be said of the varia and gravity suit. The law of identity supports my point, however.

It could be the case, but there's no real evidence from the games aside from the usual game-to-game differences.

 

[Crystanium]

Those two snakes don't share the same species.

That's not relevant, as my point was they can share the same things I presented and look the same without being the same.

Ah, I see. I was thinking that the reduced protection was a result of the Phazon suit's corruption messing with the Varia suit. Does Samus come in contact with Phazon before acquiring the Varia suit?

There is no reduced protection, though. In all Metroid games, suits will only benefit Samus. They'll never have negative qualities. It only makes sense that armor is supposed to benefit the wearer. Samus can come in contact with Phazon before acquiring the varia suit. She just requires the missile launcher and morph ball. It's found on Tallon Overworld where there are two flying pirates standing next to two containers of Phazon.

That would explain the speed increase, then (although it's odd that that doesn't appear in Other M and Super Metroid, which follow it in the timeline).

Until the Metroid Prime trilogy, it was never explained why Samus completely starts over. This was then seen again in Metroid Fusion and then Metroid: Other M (game release in chronological order). In Super Metroid in the cut-scenes, you see Samus in the power suit alone, meaning she once again doesn't have the varia suit.

Yes, I acknowledged that the Fusion versions of those suits are separate from the rest of the series in my post.

My point was all we needed was demonstration.

Things can change over time (or due to gameplay purposes and all).

While possible, it would still demonstrate that the law of identity says they're not the same.

Except it's not. All of these discrepancies are the examples of the suits' functions changing from game to game.

An assertion I disproved.

And that demonstration falls under the same category as the whole Other M lava deal.

Or the lava could be hotter.

Doesn't Samus only return Aether technology at the end of Prime 2?

Yes, hence her willingness to give up what she possessed.

It could be the case, but there's no real evidence from the games aside from the usual game-to-game differences.

With you, evidence won't change your mind.

 

[Munomario777]

That's not relevant, as my point was they can share the same things I presented and look the same without being the same.

Fire Flowers are presumably one species, whereas the snakes are not.

There is no reduced protection, though. In all Metroid games, suits will only benefit Samus. They'll never have negative qualities. It only makes sense that armor is supposed to benefit the wearer.

Reduced protection in comparison to the Varia suit's portrayal throughout the series (20% as opposed to 50%).

Samus can come in contact with Phazon before acquiring the varia suit. She just requires the missile launcher and morph ball. It's found on Tallon Overworld where there are two flying pirates standing next to two containers of Phazon.

That could possibly explain the Varia suit's reduced effectiveness here, then.

Until the Metroid Prime trilogy, it was never explained why Samus completely starts over. This was then seen again in Metroid Fusion and then Metroid: Other M (game release in chronological order). In Super Metroid in the cut-scenes, you see Samus in the power suit alone, meaning she once again doesn't have the varia suit.

I see. I wonder how Samus lost it then.

My point was all we needed was demonstration.

This is more the lore stating something than it being demonstrated in-game.

While possible, it would still demonstrate that the law of identity says they're not the same.

They're the same suit, but the attributes of that suit vary from game to game. It's like putting a new engine in a car; it's the same car, but it can now go faster (or slower depending on the engine).

An assertion I disproved.

Or the lava could be hotter.

Here's lava from Super Metroid, which the Gravity Suit protects Samus from:

And here's an example from Other M, which the Gravity Suit is vulnerable to:

While some spots seem hotter than the SM example, the darker spots (which still affect the Gravity Suit, mind you) seem cooler going by color temperature.

Yes, hence her willingness to give up what she possessed.

Does she give up the Varia/Gravity suit?

With you, evidence won't change your mind.

Not if it's been proven insufficient by other examples, no.

Anyway, this little argument doesn't really matter all that much in regards to the original point (100% damage reduction and all). Why? Well, if each game really does have a different Varia suit, then we can't give Samus the Phazon Suit and the 75% reduction granted by the Varia and Gravity suits in other games. This is the case because the Phazon Suit hasn't shown compatibility with those specific suits. This matters quite a bit, since these are technological pieces were working with, and those often require specific parts to work together (i.e. you can't plug an HDMI cable into a VGA port). This is different from, say, Link's gear stacking because you can wear a tunic and gloves at the same time, whereas technology often isn't compatible with other types of technology.

However, we could definitely give Samus, say, the Varia suit from Metroid II and the Gravity suit from Other M since both are interfacing with the basic Power suit.

 

[Crystanium]

This is the case because the Phazon Suit hasn't shown compatibility with those specific suits.

I was replying to your last post, but this . . . this is a gem. It tells me that I should cease discussing with you, especially when you don't know what you're talking about concerning the series. Honestly, I should have a long time ago because while you're the one person I've debated with in this entire thread, nothing has come from it and I feel nothing will. Good night.

 

[Munomario777]

Um, okay? The Phazon suit only appeared in Metroid Prime, and since it seems rather different from the basic Power suit that Samus usually has, I'm not sure why we should just assume that the upgrades from other games would work with that suit.

By the way, I'm wondering if we should even give Samus the Phazon suit. After all, it was the result of a freak accident (getting bathed in Phazon upon defeating a boss), and she loses it at the end of that game (when Metroid Prime absorbs the Phazon, thus creating Dark Samus). I'm not sure on this quite yet; just a thought.

I do think that she might be better off with the PED Suit though, if only for Hypermode and other Phazon abilities (plus, this is compatible with the Varia suit, since Samus has it throughout the course of the game).

 

[Crystanium]

Since the discussion of magma/lava has been brought up, I feel it's going to require more than just color temperature to figure it out. Magma or lava can be white, but there has never been a temperature that has exceeded 1,700°C like the type found on Jupiter's moon, Io. In Metroid: Other M, we can see an active volcano. The shape is similar to that of a stratovolcano. According to this link, this means the magma type andesitic, which would range anywhere between 900 to 1,000°C. Something else worth noting is that andesitic types can be explosive or effusive (non-explosive). There are parts farther from the volcano where we see explosive lava, while other parts simply bubble.

Another thing to point out is that Samus has a difficult time moving through the lava if she falls right in. She can slowly "swim", but she moves pretty much at the pace of the lava. The lava tends to travel several meters per second. I don't have a recorder to show this, but yesterday I decided I'd pay more attention to the surroundings in the Pyrosphere. Below is a chart showing the different types of viscosity, which I personally think helps give us an idea of how viscous the types of magma really is.

Even if it was basalt Samus was treading through, I doubt she would really have an easy time getting through it. If the idea of walking through corn syrup sounds difficult, imagine how much more it'd be in basalt types. Simply put, from what it seems, the type of lava in MOM is andesitic. In Super Metroid, the magma is also viscous, but with the gravity suit deactivated, Samus' running is hindered. This is to be expected as well, but using color temperature alone doesn't work too well in that game. If it's andesitic as well, then the supposed contradiction could be based on temperature differences.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Maybe he didn't know the speed. It looks like the Blue Falcon's normal speed if speed is preferred over acceleration is 1,003 km/h (622.98 mi/h), but it can go faster with the boost power.

I guess, but I feel like it'd be hard for anyone who plays Smash not to think someone who drive a futuristic race car probably is is one of the fastest guys on the roster (if you include the car). But it wasn't supposed to be mean.

The Lightning Chariot doesn't look like it's passing the planet below very fast and the time to enter the warp tunnel takes a while. In the cut-scene where Phos and Lux fly through the force field is too fast to see, though. It looks like a beam of light, probably based on the names, Phos and Lux, which both mean light in Greek and Latin. The idol description says something interesting, however. "Its extreme speed is matched only by the destructive shots fired from the unicorns horns." I see a lightning attack used every now and then, but I don't know if that's coming from the horns. If so, then yeah, we could say they travel at the speed of lightning.

We can't really determine what speed it was going when it was traveling over the planet, but even if it wasn't going at the speed of lightning, I presume it it was probably going fast relative to most fighters on the roster. But I doubt Pit can control it when it hits light speed/lightning speed, so it'd probably only be useful for evasion or retreating at those speeds. Or a ridiculously fast ramming attack.

Interpretation isn't solid evidence, let alone of a wiki page. I suggest that we find the original lore from the games and go from there.

Well its possible the actual source is vague too, but it couldn't hurt too find the lore just in case.

Don’t you have other computers or a hacked Wii handy? You’ll be back to Roy and friend’s happy slaughter party time before you know it! Are you enjoying it so far?

My other laptop is slow as turtle. I only keep it because I don't want to transfer my massive itunes collection over. And naw, I don't really do hacked systems.
And yes it is fun, of all the FE games I've played (7, 8, 9, 13) it has the best maps. Although I hated chapter 16 (Fog of war + desert + foes with status-inflicting staves + manaketes + wyvern riders = BRUTAL). And I find the cast so bland. Have you played it?

“TINK” That sound never gets old! Why on earth did we get Hyrule Warriors instead of Fire Emblem Warriors (you would never run out of viable picks from that universe and also have playable flyers and shape shifters)!?

Probably because Zelda would sell more but I'd love an FE Warriors, although I've still yet to play Hyrule Warriors. I'm not sure it's worth the price, length wise.

Also, it's worth noting that it's always referred to as "the Varia Suit", seeming to mean that there is only one. In addition, it's said to be custom made for Samus, again implying that there's likely only one.

I think it's unlikely, although vary possible given how advanced the Chozo are, that they distributed the same Varia Suit across the galaxy.

Um, okay? The Phazon suit only appeared in Metroid Prime, and since it seems rather different from the basic Power suit that Samus usually has, I'm not sure why we should just assume that the upgrades from other games would work with that suit.

By the way, I'm wondering if we should even give Samus the Phazon suit. After all, it was the result of a freak accident (getting bathed in Phazon upon defeating a boss), and she loses it at the end of that game (when Metroid Prime absorbs the Phazon, thus creating Dark Samus). I'm not sure on this quite yet; just a thought.

I do think that she might be better off with the PED Suit though, if only for Hypermode and other Phazon abilities (plus, this is compatible with the Varia suit, since Samus has it throughout the course of the game).

IIRC, it requires Phazon (which she doesn't store) to use Hypermode so there'd be no benefit in using that ugly thing here.

And if the Phazon suit is 100% compatible with everything in MP, why would it not work with her other equipment? It's possible it might not stack with the Aether suits, but that's about it.

 

[Munomario777]

Well its possible the actual source is vague too, but it couldn't hurt too find the lore just in case.

Yeah, that would be helpful.

I think it's unlikely, although vary possible given how advanced the Chozo are, that they distributed the same Varia Suit across the galaxy.

Very true, but that's still only one make/model.

IIRC, it requires Phazon (which she doesn't store) to use Hypermode so there'd be no benefit in using that ugly thing here.

Can't she store it in Prime 3?

And if the Phazon suit is 100% compatible with everything in MP, why would it not work with her other equipment? It's possible it might not stack with the Aether suits, but that's about it.

Because that would be extrapolation.

 

[Crystanium]

I think it's unlikely, although vary possible given how advanced the Chozo are, that they distributed the same Varia Suit across the galaxy.

This would presuppose all Chozo are the same in thinking, however, and it would also presuppose that all Chozo inhabited the same planets, none of which are true. "One thing is clear, however: the Chozo who colonized Tallon IV made a conscious choice to eschew a civilization of advanced technology. They chose to live in harmony with nature, guided by the providence of the universe." (Chozo Lore - Beginnings) This would possibly explain why their armor was inferior compared to the kind found on planet SR388, where the Chozo ruins are littered with machines and technology. These must have been the same Chozo to leave SR388 and went to planet Zebes because the technology in both games are pretty similar.

IIRC, it requires Phazon (which she doesn't store) to use Hypermode so there'd be no benefit in using that ugly thing here.

If you're talking about the Phazon suit, Samus would need to step into a pool of Phazon to use the Phazon beam, which would be extremely devastating to whoever was hit with it. However, the PED suit uses Samus' internal energy, rather than external backpacks like those in the Federation. This is because Samus' body was able to produce its own Phazon.

And if the Phazon suit is 100% compatible with everything in MP, why would it not work with her other equipment? It's possible it might not stack with the Aether suits, but that's about it.

That's just something Munomario777 thinks, probably because he doesn't want Samus to have 100% damage reduction. 90% would still be just as beneficial.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Okay, then we should only let Kirby use Crash etc. once (as in not renew it after it's used up).

Okay.

Such as?

Um, that was the example.

That takes two turns to activate, during which Sonic would likely KO Mewtwo (and if not, he would only lose a few Rings, which is no big deal really).

Mewtwo's Attack stat is 350 or something like that, Sonic would lose WAY more than just a few rings.

Also, I'm going to call for a revote on the invincibility rule, because I really don't see why we should move on with a rule that most of us are against.

I didn't see Kirby at one side of the screen in one image and the other side in another image. He started about 2/3 of the way through.

That's because the first image was after 1/4 of a second.

A) Unless the tank is stated to move at that speed, it doesn't.
B) We don't compare things with a stated speed to get the speed of another object anyways.

The tank has no confirmed speed, so that's where real life would kick in.

Mario and co. clearly are not normal humans. They jump 2-3 times their body height. Athletes do run at those speeds; see this article.

And 18 MPH > 16 MPH.

As proven by?

Kirby's the one who made him do it.

Multiple security doors and military-grade robots > one rather small chunk of metal.

Not really, even small chunks of metal are super durable.

The Light Speed Attack does need charge time, but that charge can be stored. After it's stored, Sonic can run around, jump, and do whatever, and when it's released, it happens instantaneously.

During the initial charge, Kirby just goes Spark Kirby and creates a spark field to blast Sonic away, or goes Hypernova Kirby and inhales Sonic.

How much force did said explosion contain?

Covered about half of the planet Popstar, that's quite a lot of force. Also, a counter for the Power Bomb.

Did he do that willingly, or was he crushed/flattened by an external force?

By an external force (which would be simulated because he is slipping under the clown car).

Not in Stone form.

Yes, in Stone form.

How well can Kirby steer the jet form?

He always seems to go where he intends to go, so I'd say pretty well.

None of Mario's attacks can damage Bowser in, say, the final boss of NSMBU.

How powerful are these attacks, exactly?

Lumas pull Star Bits from an external source. In Galaxy, it's Mario's Star Bit count, and here, it's Rosalina's.

Even then, it would still take too much time to shoot the Star Bits into each other's mouths, also charge up and reach Kirby. Starting the Warp Star only takes about three seconds.

B) I was thinking something resembling a vacuum cleaner (or Kirby's inhale, even).
C) And the face is clearly not distorted.

B) If it's been said to be a black hole, it looks and acts like a black hole, and it hasn't been suggested otherwise in canon, it's pretty clear that it's a black hole.
C) The area in the black hole is distorted.
By the way, I did a tiny bit of searching, and I didn't see anything saying Lumas can turn into black holes. Can you show me a video or provide me with a statement saying that they can?

When did I say that? I can't recall; could you quote it please so I know what you're talking about?

Seeing how agile most characters here are, they seem superhuman as far as physical abilities go.

And Kirby can't effectively attack in Stone form, and as I've already proven, the Helpers would be defeated rather easily.

Helpers wouldn't be defeated because Kirby blocks the attacks.

Also, has Stone ever resisted the amount of force that a metal-shredding buzzsaw of a hedgehog moving at light speed would create?

Regular Kirby resisted the amount of force that a massive explosion that coated half a planet created, so the answer's obvious here.

Since when was this about an invincible Kirby? We're talking about Kirby reacting to Sonic teleporting in and teleporting.

That's not what I was talking about. Kirby dodged Daroach's touch damage + teleportation.

The teleport seems rather quick to me. Sonic might be better off just using the Light Speed Attack or something similar, though.

Daroach's teleportation is faster, plus his attack was much more instant than anything Sonic can do. LSA won't do any more damage than Sonic's other attacks.

How does that relate to the strength of DK's punches?

It doesn't.

And how do you know that everything is accurate, even when it doesn't directly come from the things you listed (such as, say, the method for calculating power levels)?

Nothing I've seen from them so far was inaccurate, all of it was backed up by evidence from the source games, and I spotted no errors.

We're discussing "planetary" Kirby bosses vs. regular Kirby enemies.

Then do the boss punches do five or seven times more damage than Mac's punches?

Gameplay and lore both suggest that PNF-404 is similar to Earth.

PNF-404 has an alien species called Pikmin (completely nonexistent in the real world), suggesting that there are differences from Earth as well.

When do we see the studies of Olimar showing that the knife has those properties?

His journal concludes it.

Seeing as how things like, say, a pencil are considered "treasures", Olimar doesn't seem to have very high standards.

If you're taking everything said by

Olimar's journal =/= lore, and the name is irrelevant.

The name is backup to both the sales pitch and the journal.

Have Pikmin done this sort of thing before (or rather, has Olimar organized them efficiently enough to do so, and quickly enough to not get killed before they're finished)? What would swinging the knife like this do exactly?

I haven't played Pikmin, so I'm not that sure. Swinging the knife would create an upward spatial-temporal slice attack.

 

[Munomario777]

Um, that was the example.

And what are the "reasons" you mentioned?

Mewtwo's Attack stat is 350 or something like that, Sonic would lose WAY more than just a few rings.

If a god of destruction that bends space and time only knocks out a few Rings, I don't see Mewtwo doing much more than that.

Also, I'm going to call for a revote on the invincibility rule, because I really don't see why we should move on with a rule that most of us are against.

There was a vote, and it was passed.

That's because the first image was after 1/4 of a second.

You'll have to prove that.

The tank has no confirmed speed, so that's where real life would kick in.

No, it's where gameplay kicks in.

And 18 MPH > 16 MPH.

And 20 MPH > 18 MPH.

Kirby's the one who made him do it.

When do we see that this was Kirby's intent?

Not really, even small chunks of metal are super durable.

And security doors and military-grade robots are more durable.

During the initial charge, Kirby just goes Spark Kirby and creates a spark field to blast Sonic away, or goes Hypernova Kirby and inhales Sonic.

Super Sonic is immune to electrical attacks like Spark, and Chaos Control (or just pure speed) would allow Sonic to escape the Hypernova.

Covered about half of the planet Popstar, that's quite a lot of force. Also, a counter for the Power Bomb.

What exactly caused the explosion? Does this come after the part where Hypernova Kirby spits back the giant laser?

By an external force (which would be simulated because he is slipping under the clown car).

The clown car wouldn't be crushing Kirby. Kirby would have to get under the clown car in order for it to crush him.

Yes, in Stone form.

No, because Stone form cannot jump.
[/quote]

He always seems to go where he intends to go, so I'd say pretty well.[/quote]
How effectively can he change direction when he's already travelling at "mach 5 speeds"?

How powerful are these attacks, exactly?

There's the Ground Pound, the effectiveness of which I've demonstrated in the past.

Even then, it would still take too much time to shoot the Star Bits into each other's mouths, also charge up and reach Kirby. Starting the Warp Star only takes about three seconds.

Seeing as how a couple hundred Star Bits and a few seconds will create an entire galaxy, it shouldn't take too long to create one measly black hole.

B) If it's been said to be a black hole, it looks and acts like a black hole, and it hasn't been suggested otherwise in canon, it's pretty clear that it's a black hole.
C) The area in the black hole is distorted.
By the way, I did a tiny bit of searching, and I didn't see anything saying Lumas can turn into black holes. Can you show me a video or provide me with a statement saying that they can?

B) It is suggested otherwise, though. For instance, the lack of distortion.
C) And the mouth is not.
They can create galaxies containing black holes.

Helpers wouldn't be defeated because Kirby blocks the attacks.

Except he doesn't, because Stone Kirby cannot jump.

Regular Kirby resisted the amount of force that a massive explosion that coated half a planet created, so the answer's obvious here.

See above. Also, he hasn't shown resistance to, say, a Waddle Doo's laser beam.

That's not what I was talking about. Kirby dodged Daroach's touch damage + teleportation.

And Sonic is faster than Daroach. Many of his attacks have little to no starting lag.

Daroach's teleportation is faster, plus his attack was much more instant than anything Sonic can do. LSA won't do any more damage than Sonic's other attacks.

Chaos Control is practically instant, and he can attack instantly as well (see the Homing Attack, Boost, Bounce, Spin Attack, etc.). Getting hit by a buzzsaw of a hedgehog at light speed is going to hurt (this is reflected by a certain boss taking much more damage from the LSA, although it doesn't OHKO bosses mainly due to game balance and all).

It doesn't.

Then why are you using it to say that Mac's punches are stronger than DK's?

Nothing I've seen from them so far was inaccurate, all of it was backed up by evidence from the source games, and I spotted no errors.

I'm not talking about the evidence from the games. I'm talking about how it's interpreted into a power level. It's like the faulty calculator example. The raw numbers you put in (data from games) could be right, but the conversion done with those numbers (power level calculations) could be wrong.

Then do the boss punches do five or seven times more damage than Mac's punches?

I honestly have no idea what you're even talking about anymore. This little string of miniquotes is about Kirby bosses being about five to seven times as damaging to Kirby as a regular enemy. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that it's about Little Mac or DK.

PNF-404 has an alien species called Pikmin (completely nonexistent in the real world), suggesting that there are differences from Earth as well.

There are differences, but the earth-like objects are very similar.

His journal concludes it.

And his journal is not word of god.

If you're taking everything said by

I'm sorry?

The name is backup to both the sales pitch and the journal.

And the name is irrelevant to the function. I could dub something "bouncing fish", but it is not necessarily a fish. Oh wait...

I haven't played Pikmin, so I'm not that sure. Swinging the knife would create an upward spatial-temporal slice attack.

When is this proven in the games?

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

@ ShadowLBlue

Spoiler: @ShadowLBlue

And naw, I don't really do hacked systems.

Hacking Homebrew onto the Wii was laughably easy when I actually bothered to try and Wii consoles are relatively cheap to replace nowadays anyway.

And yes it is fun, of all the FE games I've played (7, 8, 9, 13) it has the best maps.

I haven’t played any of the unlocalized Fire Emblems, nor have I played Shadow Dragon or Awakening (I’ve heard it’s level design is disappointing). In regards to best map design it goes 10>7>9>8.

7 has many good maps including mountain ranges and large bodies of water that let the Pegasus sisters prove their worth and the FoW maps are definitely tough. The map for the Crazed Beast chapter even operates like a miniature version of a Genealogy of the Holy War map. The various gaiden requirements reward swift action rather than a cautious advance and I enjoy the boss rush in the penultimate battle. This was my first Fire Emblem game back in Christmas 2003 and I’m rather fond of it (even though I haven‘t beaten Hector Hard Mode) and I enjoyed witnessing Pent wiping the floor with those Bandits on my big TV (gotta love all the use I got out of the GameCube's Gameboy Player).

8 has way too many straightforward maps and no missable gaiden chapters. The FoW maps are good at making you rush and I did enjoy the desert chapter for giving me the opportunity to demolish Caellach and Valter.

9 has a few too many straight forward maps. I admit the defend missions in chapters 8 and 17-3 can get a bit rough and chapters 10, 22, 23 and 25 can get annoying with their gimmicks. I can’t believe NoA replaced Maniac mode with an easy mode instead (facepalm).

10 has perspective switching that forces you to use more units than you would in previous games and you even get to clash with your own trained troops (they retreat to fight again as long as they are an enemy unit at the time). Radiant Dawn also has some of the better defend maps I have had the joy of playing (2-E and 3-13) and quite a few maps let you fight alongside a sizable force of competent partner and other units (2-3, 2-E, 3-P, 3-10, 3-12, 3-13 and 3-E). This game is also the only one where you can have climbable ledges that give archers and mages an excellent vantage point to fight from. It also has one of the most memorable FoW maps in 1-9.

You want to rank them on Level design too?

Although I hated chapter 16 (Fog of war + desert + foes with status-inflicting staves + manaketes + wyvern riders = BRUTAL).

I LOATHE status staves and combining FoW, status staves, high movement Wyvern riders and Manaketes must be evil. I hope you aren’t trying to train up a weak unit under these conditions.

The toughest FoW war maps in each game:

7: Hector Hard Mode Battle Before Dawn, this link sums up why I haven’t beat Hector Hard Mode yet: http://lparchive.org/Fire-Emblem-Blazing-Sword/Update 68/ . I’d love to see the looks on the faces of the fans brought in by Awakening when they see this.

8: Chapter 11E (countless monsters on the boat and airborne attackers from all sides (including the boss) leave you without a safe rear area) and 19 (A werewolve’s worst nightmare with an unending deluge of 2nd tier reinforcements from the northeast and southwest).

9: Chapter 5 on hard (there’s like two of these maps and this one wins out because it’s an early defend map).

10: Chapter 1-9 on higher difficulties (Micaiah risks being one rounded by the stronger and more numerous archers) and 3-1 (Crit happy Snipers enjoy hiding in the shadows)

And I find the cast so bland.

The blandness may stem from the amateur translation and a proper localization would have surely been better. It’s been 11.5 years since FE7 was released and they haven’t even tried to localize the earlier games for the Virtual Console!

Have you played it?

No, I’ve only played 7 through 10. I’d love to give the earlier games a chance but I haven’t found the time to do so yet.

Have you played Fire Emblem's sister series Advance Wars?

I haven't played Pikmin, so I'm not that sure. Swinging the knife would create an upward spatial-temporal slice attack.

I’ve never seen the Pikmin ever set up any vertical formations of themselves (like cheerleaders). They can carry things and push paper bags but that's it.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

This thread is dying. Though it's not necessarily a bad thing, it took over a large portion of my life .

And what are the "reasons" you mentioned?

Giant Punch, also Sonic/Wario's fsmashes.

If a god of destruction that bends space and time only knocks out a few Rings, I don't see Mewtwo doing much more than that.

The god of destruction's attacks knocks a few Rings out of Super Sonic. Regular Sonic (because FS slips past Super Sonic) would have much more trouble with Mewtwo's Future Sight. Mewtwo really has the battle in the bag. When the battle starts, it uses Disable, now Sonic can't move. Mewtwo uses a few Hyper Beams and Sonic is defeated.

There was a vote, and it was passed.

Let's have another vote then, and see what we actually want.

You'll have to prove that.

I did. Care to prove otherwise?

No, it's where gameplay kicks in.

There's no source in the gameplay for the tank's speed, other than the fact that it moves faster than someone running (which tanks in real life do as well).

And 20 MPH > 18 MPH.

................Where did you ever get 20 MPH from? And you've still yet to prove that most of these characters are faster than Wheel Kirby, even if he's put at 18 MPH. Some of the examples you used were invalid as well. Even if all of these guys can catch Wheel Kirby, almost none of them can catch Jet Kirby.

When do we see that this was Kirby's intent?

Kirby caused Meta Knight to appear by using the Magic Copy Ability, he activated it by pulling off his hat and spinning the roulette.

And security doors and military-grade robots are more durable.

Not necessarily.

Super Sonic is immune to electrical attacks like Spark, and Chaos Control (or just pure speed) would allow Sonic to escape the Hypernova.

I thought this was regular Sonic we were talking about. Regardless, in order for the LSA to work, Sonic has to get close. If he does, Hypernova sucks him in. Otherwise, he can't use the LSA (or other close-range attacks).

What exactly caused the explosion? Does this come after the part where Hypernova Kirby spits back the giant laser?

The defeat of Sectonia caused the explosion, and yes it does.

The clown car wouldn't be crushing Kirby. Kirby would have to get under the clown car in order for it to crush him.

Which he's doing.

No, because Stone form cannot jump.

I was referring the the Animal Statues ability.

How effectively can he change direction when he's already travelling at "mach 5 speeds"?

See 0:25, he changes directions without any trouble at all.

There's the Ground Pound, the effectiveness of which I've demonstrated in the past.

Stone Change > Ground Pound, the effectiveness of which I've demonstrated in the past.

I would also like to point out that Kirby has enough power to send Giga Bowser (anyone, actually) flying with enough force to destroy a planet. 2:35 to see what I'm talking about.

Seeing as how a couple hundred Star Bits and a few seconds will create an entire galaxy, it shouldn't take too long to create one measly black hole.

Except they can't create individual black holes.

B) It is suggested otherwise, though. For instance, the lack of distortion.
C) And the mouth is not.
They can create galaxies containing black holes.

B) There is not a lack of distortion.
C) There is a greater presence of distortion than there is a lack of distortion, however.
D) So they have to become galaxies to create black holes? Turning into a galaxy would kill everyone in the arena.

Except he doesn't, because Stone Kirby cannot jump.

See above.

See above. Also, he hasn't shown resistance to, say, a Waddle Doo's laser beam.

And a laser beam doesn't damage him that much either.

And Sonic is faster than Daroach. Many of his attacks have little to no starting lag.

Daroach's teleporting is faster than Sonic's teleporting.

Chaos Control is practically instant, and he can attack instantly as well (see the Homing Attack, Boost, Bounce, Spin Attack, etc.). Getting hit by a buzzsaw of a hedgehog at light speed is going to hurt (this is reflected by a certain boss taking much more damage from the LSA, although it doesn't OHKO bosses mainly due to game balance and all).

Daroach's teleporting and touch damage are more instant than Sonic's teleporting and attacks. The former happen at the exact same time with absolutely no delay, the latter attacks have a delay of say, half a second.

I'm not talking about the evidence from the games. I'm talking about how it's interpreted into a power level. It's like the faulty calculator example. The raw numbers you put in (data from games) could be right, but the conversion done with those numbers (power level calculations) could be wrong.

I honestly have no idea what you're even talking about anymore. This little string of miniquotes is about Kirby bosses being about five to seven times as damaging to Kirby as a regular enemy. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that it's about Little Mac or DK.

Actually, I asked if DK's punches did five or seven times more damage than Mac's punches, and you responded with, "We're talking about "planetary" Kirby bosses vs regular Kirby enemies." It was always about DK and Mac.

There are differences, but the earth-like objects are very similar.

This earth-like object can slice through space and time.

And his journal is not word of god.

I don't see why he'd write something in it if what he wrote is completely false and makes no sense.

I'm sorry?

Oh, just ignore that part.

And the name is irrelevant to the function. I could dub something "bouncing fish", but it is not necessarily a fish. Oh wait...

Except there are things explaining the title (Olimar's journal/Sales Pitch). Nothing explains the title of Bouncing Fish. Not the fish part, at least.

When is this proven in the games?

The two explanations of it.

I’ve never seen the Pikmin ever set up any vertical formations of themselves (like cheerleaders). They can carry things and push paper bags but that's it.

Winged Pikmin can carry things upward.

 

[Munomario777]

This thread is dying. Though it's not necessarily a bad thing, it took over a large portion of my life .

:/

Giant Punch, also Sonic/Wario's fsmashes.

I asked for logical reasons, not non-canon examples from a game filled with things like jumping in midair.

The god of destruction's attacks knocks a few Rings out of Super Sonic. Regular Sonic (because FS slips past Super Sonic) would have much more trouble with Mewtwo's Future Sight.

Future Sight could harm Super Sonic, yes. However, when Super Sonic is harmed, he only loses a few Rings.

Mewtwo really has the battle in the bag. When the battle starts, it uses Disable, now Sonic can't move. Mewtwo uses a few Hyper Beams and Sonic is defeated.

Disable is blocked by Super Sonic, and it only disables the last move used, not movement. Hyper Beams are also blocked.

Let's have another vote then, and see what we actually want.

We already did that.

I did. Care to prove otherwise?

No, you did not. Show me when you proved that the first image was 1/4 of a second after Kirby came from the right of the screen.

There's no source in the gameplay for the tank's speed, other than the fact that it moves faster than someone running (which tanks in real life do as well).

Yes, there is; it's when we see the tank moving at such speeds.

................Where did you ever get 20 MPH from?

The article I linked.

And you've still yet to prove that most of these characters are faster than Wheel Kirby, even if he's put at 18 MPH.

Superhuman leg strength, endurance, etc.

Some of the examples you used were invalid as well. Even if all of these guys can catch Wheel Kirby, almost none of them can catch Jet Kirby.

Now that I think about it, in Air Ride, don't you have to charge up for a second before going forward, and isn't this also the case for Jet?

Also, I'm curious how you found my examples to be "invalid"; care to elaborate?

Kirby caused Meta Knight to appear by using the Magic Copy Ability, he activated it by pulling off his hat and spinning the roulette.

Your point?

Not necessarily.

They appear to be thicker.

I thought this was regular Sonic we were talking about.

Who then turns into Super Sonic.

Regardless, in order for the LSA to work, Sonic has to get close.

No, it has homing capabilities that can attack from a ways away.

If he does, Hypernova sucks him in. Otherwise, he can't use the LSA (or other close-range attacks).

Super speed or teleportation. We've been over this before.

The defeat of Sectonia caused the explosion, and yes it does.

Since this is Kirby's beam causing the explosion (which seems rather similar to said beam), this seems to be a case of friendly fire being turned off.

Which he's doing.

As in, stuck between the rim of the clown car and the concrete floor.

I was referring the the Animal Statues ability.

Oh please. Those aren't even close to being fast enough to block an attack.

See 0:25, he changes directions without any trouble at all.

Can he do this in the games?

Stone Change > Ground Pound, the effectiveness of which I've demonstrated in the past.

Care to repost that? I don't recall.

I would also like to point out that Kirby has enough power to send Giga Bowser (anyone, actually) flying with enough force to destroy a planet. 2:35 to see what I'm talking about.

That's the boss crashing into the planet, not Kirby destroying it.

Except they can't create individual black holes.

Except they can, within levels. They have great control over their transformations (they can aim Launch Stars extremely well, create a specific type of Mushroom, etc.).

B) There is not a lack of distortion.
C) There is a greater presence of distortion than there is a lack of distortion, however.
D) So they have to become galaxies to create black holes? Turning into a galaxy would kill everyone in the arena.

B) There is in the mouth area.
C) And in a real black hole, there is no such lack of distortion.
D) No they don't for reasons stated above, but I don't see how turning into a galaxy would KO everyone. In fact, it could help Rosalina depending on the galaxy; reshaping the battlefield is a nice advantage.

And a laser beam doesn't damage him that much either.

And yet it damages him, and is much weaker than the explosion (presumably).

Daroach's teleporting is faster than Sonic's teleporting.

Chaos Control is rather quick (plus, Daroach is rather predictable as far as patterns go). If it is faster, it's by a small margin.

By the way, I found an even quicker example of Chaos Control (around the one minute mark), this time with attacking:

Daroach's teleporting and touch damage are more instant than Sonic's teleporting and attacks. The former happen at the exact same time with absolutely no delay, the latter attacks have a delay of say, half a second.

Oh, if you want to go the touch damage route, Super Sonic can destroy robots by touching them. As for the whole "delay" deal, one look at a Sonic game and you'll see that his attacks are instantaneous.

(lack of response)

In that case, we'll not be using that site.

Actually, I asked if DK's punches did five or seven times more damage than Mac's punches, and you responded with, "We're talking about "planetary" Kirby bosses vs regular Kirby enemies." It was always about DK and Mac.

Oh, I must have mis-quoted a while back.

This earth-like object can slice through space and time.

When do we see this demonstrated?

I don't see why he'd write something in it if what he wrote is completely false and makes no sense.

Let's see. Possible reasons include:

• Misinformation
• Misunderstanding
• A typo
• Insanity from being stranded on an alien planet (we see this happen to Louie)
• Etc etc

Except there are things explaining the title (Olimar's journal/Sales Pitch). Nothing explains the title of Bouncing Fish. Not the fish part, at least.

The journal and sales pitch aren't always trustworthy; they're just some guy's writings.

The two explanations of it.

Which are from some random space merchant that just so happens to be the protagonist.

 

[ErenJager]

I think Kirby is the strongest hes survived the destruction of a planet and can throw people around th sun and catch them back on earth.

 

[Warlock*G]

Get outta here kids, the debate is over:

 

[Crystanium]

Well, either everyone has gotten busy all of a sudden the past few days, or I killed this thread. Every place is dying!

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Covered about half of the planet Popstar, that's quite a lot of force. Also, a counter for the Power Bomb.

The explosion in Kirby Triple Deluxe doesn’t look all that impressive. It is nothing more than a light show that causes that oversized foliage to disappear and knocks Kirby into the air and it doesn’t even leave a crater.

This thread is dying. Though it's not necessarily a bad thing, it took over a large portion of my life .

I would also like to point out that Kirby has enough power to send Giga Bowser (anyone, actually) flying with enough force to destroy a planet. 2:35 to see what I'm talking about.

Except they can't create individual black holes.

Winged Pikmin can carry things upward.

It’s because ShadowLBlue is having computer problems.

He hit a severely damaged area on a mechanical comet and the evidence is inconclusive (We don’t know precisely what caused NOVA to explode).

Agreed. Galaxies yes, individual Black Holes no.

It will be easy to stomp the winged Pikmin (Olimar never got winged Pikmin) when they are carrying objects (where exactly is he storing them, his ship?).

Except they can, within levels. They have great control over their transformations (they can aim Launch Stars extremely well, create a specific type of Mushroom, etc.).

By the way, I found an even quicker example of Chaos Control (around the one minute mark), this time with attacking:

Launch Stars and Mushrooms are items, Black holes are not. We have never seen a Luma make a Black hole by itself and even if they could Black Holes are super dense and would take the lion's share of a Galaxy's Star Bits to make.



@ Kirby Dragons , @ Munomario777 , @Dryn, @ ShadowLBlue , @Nerdicon How much do the combatants know about one another before going into the arena?

Some ideas:

1. They know about as much about each other as we do.
2. They have a general idea about each others' capabilities but nothing specific (Ex. Pikachu is an agile rodent with electrical powers but they wouldn’t know what skills or attacks it possesses beyond that).
3. They can receive a warning from a 3rd party within their home setting that possesses the gift of prophecy (Ex. Roy receives a warning from Sophia (@ ShadowLBlue exactly how useful is she with her future sight?) where applicable.
4. They go in blind.

I’m open to other suggestions on this.

 

[Munomario777]

Launch Stars and Mushrooms are items, Black holes are not. We have never seen a Luma make a Black hole by itself and even if they could Black Holes are super dense and would take the lion's share of a Galaxy's Star Bits to make.

Launch Stars and black holes are both elements of a level (although I fail to see why this classification would matter in the first place). Lumas can make galaxies with multiple black holes, planetoids, Star Bits (meaning they don't even convert all of them), atmospheres, enemies, Launch Stars, Power Stars, and more with only a few hundred Star Bits, so one measly black hole shouldn't cost that much.

@ Kirby Dragons , @ Munomario777 , @Dryn, @ ShadowLBlue , @Nerdicon How much do the combatants know about one another before going into the arena?

Some ideas:

1. They know about as much about each other as we do.
2. They have a general idea about each others' capabilities but nothing specific (Ex. Pikachu is an agile rodent with electrical powers but they wouldn’t know what skills or attacks it possesses beyond that).
3. They can receive a warning from a 3rd party within their home setting that possesses the gift of prophecy (Ex. Roy receives a warning from Sophia (@ ShadowLBlue exactly how useful is she with her future sight?) where applicable.
4. They go in blind.

I’m open to other suggestions on this.

Hmm. I think 2 would be hard to define, and 3 would be A) not encompassing enough characters and B) ally assistance. I think they should be told everything, but it should be up to them to remember it and know what's important. For example, Bowser would be told everything, but his tendency to ignore what he's told (he demonstrates this with Kamek sometimes) as well as his general lack of intelligence would hinder his ability to listen to and remember it.

 

[Crystanium]

@ Kirby Dragons , @ Munomario777 , @Dryn, @ ShadowLBlue , @Nerdicon How much do the combatants know about one another before going into the arena?

Some ideas:

1. They know about as much about each other as we do.
2. They have a general idea about each others' capabilities but nothing specific (Ex. Pikachu is an agile rodent with electrical powers but they wouldn’t know what skills or attacks it possesses beyond that).
3. They can receive a warning from a 3rd party within their home setting that possesses the gift of prophecy (Ex. Roy receives a warning from Sophia (@ ShadowLBlue exactly how useful is she with her future sight?) where applicable.
4. They go in blind.

I’m open to other suggestions on this.

I think all characters should not have any knowledge of other characters. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few on the roster who can figure things out. While Samus' scan visor may use the Galactic Federation databank as well as the flora and fauna databank, she has been able to scan things that require no information from said databanks. For example, I doubt the information about Chozo ghosts is something known by the GF, or Metroid Prime, or even the things found in Dark Aether or about Dark Samus. So, even if Samus goes in blind, she will be able to determine things about her enemies, Sherlock style.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I asked for logical reasons, not non-canon examples from a game filled with things like jumping in midair.

I don't actually see why someone would wind up your arm, and then throw a weakened punch afterward, unless you were doing it as a joke.

Future Sight could harm Super Sonic, yes. However, when Super Sonic is harmed, he only loses a few Rings.

You aren't getting the point. You are comparing Super Sonic with Protect. Future Sight goes past Protect (Super Sonic) and harms the Pokemon inside (regular Sonic). When regular Sonic gets hurt, he loses more than a few rings.

Disable is blocked by Super Sonic, and it only disables the last move used, not movement. Hyper Beams are also blocked.

Except Sonic this is regular Sonic we're talking about, this happens right after the battle starts. Psychic/Confusion/TK would completely stop Sonic from moving.

We already did that.

If you can call for a revote on Sonic getting 999,999 Rings, I fail to see why I can't call for a revote on this, especially since the outcome would be different.

No, you did not. Show me when you proved that the first image was 1/4 of a second after Kirby came from the right of the screen.

The images I showed were all taken after two rapid pause/unpauses of the video. Two rapid pause/unpauses is the time it took for WK to cover that distance.

Yes, there is; it's when we see the tank moving at such speeds.

What speeds?

The article I linked.

And most of these don't run at that speed.

Superhuman leg strength, endurance, etc.

Endurance does not lead to speed, also most of these guys don't have superhuman leg strength.

Now that I think about it, in Air Ride, don't you have to charge up for a second before going forward, and isn't this also the case for Jet?

Yeah, but a Helper will simply prevent the opponent from attacking during the time.

Also, I'm curious how you found my examples to be "invalid"; care to elaborate?

Kirby's on the ground.
Kirby would be long gone before Bowser could grow into Giga Bowser.
Clown Car isn't fast enough.

Your point?

It was Kirby's intention for Meta Knight to do that.

They appear to be thicker.

Metaluns are definitely thicker than steel doors. Also, robots would have a bunch of delicate parts inside them, so not very thick.

No, it has homing capabilities that can attack from a ways away.

So it's a long ranged attack?

Super speed or teleportation. We've been over this before.

Running and teleporting doesn't stop suction.

Since this is Kirby's beam causing the explosion (which seems rather similar to said beam), this seems to be a case of friendly fire being turned off.

Actually, it was Sectonia's beam. If Friendly Fire was off, the explosion wouldn't have sent Kirby flying.

As in, stuck between the rim of the clown car and the concrete floor.

He can simply pull himself through there, and he'll be flattened in the process.

Oh please. Those aren't even close to being fast enough to block an attack.

Their jumping is just as fast as Kirby's jumping.

Can he do this in the games?

Yes, actually, he does that when he uses Rocket Dive.

Care to repost that? I don't recall.

Stone Kirby plunging the Dedede Stone and completely destroying it. Recall now?

That's the boss crashing into the planet, not Kirby destroying it.

After Kirby hit the boss, with 100,000 with megatons of force.

Except they can, within levels. They have great control over their transformations (they can aim Launch Stars extremely well, create a specific type of Mushroom, etc.).

Can you show me a Luma becoming a black hole then? Saying that they have great control over their transformations isn't enough. Kirby has great control over his transformations too (he can combine them, access them at any time, discard them, etc.), yet he can't turn into things that he can't turn into.

B) There is in the mouth area.
C) And in a real black hole, there is no such lack of distortion.
D) No they don't for reasons stated above, but I don't see how turning into a galaxy would KO everyone. In fact, it could help Rosalina depending on the galaxy; reshaping the battlefield is a nice advantage.

B) That's basically nitpicking.
C) Nitpicking.
D) Creating a galaxy creates planets that would crush everyone into oblivion. Rosalina cannot reshape battlefields.

And yet it damages him, and is much weaker than the explosion (presumably).

Barely. LSA/Power Bomb wouldn't do any extra damage.

Chaos Control is rather quick (plus, Daroach is rather predictable as far as patterns go). If it is faster, it's by a small margin.


By the way, I found an even quicker example of Chaos Control (around the one minute mark), this time with attacking:

Then Daroach's teleportation is as fast as Shadow's. Kirby can dodge one, he can dodge the other.

Oh, if you want to go the touch damage route, Super Sonic can destroy robots by touching them. As for the whole "delay" deal, one look at a Sonic game and you'll see that his attacks are instantaneous.

Daroach's teleportation + attack = Super Sonic's teleportation + attack. Kirby can dodge the former, so he can dodge the latter.

In that case, we'll not be using that site.

That's how it's been the whole time.

When do we see this demonstrated?

We don't need it demonstrated if we have a conclusion that it can.

Let's see. Possible reasons include:

• Misinformation
• Misunderstanding
• A typo
• Insanity from being stranded on an alien planet (we see this happen to Louie)
• Etc etc

• Where would the misinformation even come from?
• What could he misunderstand to conclude that the Dimensional Slicer cuts through space and time?
• That's one pretty bad typo.
• Olimar is smarter than Louie (seeing as he's the captain and all), so he'd be more immune to gaining insanity. Plus, he never showed any insanity in Pikmin 2.

The journal and sales pitch aren't always trustworthy; they're just some guy's writings.

Writings about one of their observations.

Which are from some random space merchant that just so happens to be the protagonist.

An observation.

I think all characters should not have any knowledge of other characters. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few on the roster who can figure things out. While Samus' scan visor may use the Galactic Federation databank as well as the flora and fauna databank, she has been able to scan things that require no information from said databanks. For example, I doubt the information about Chozo ghosts is something known by the GF, or Metroid Prime, or even the things found in Dark Aether or about Dark Samus. So, even if Samus goes in blind, she will be able to determine things about her enemies, Sherlock style.

I agree 100%.

The explosion in Kirby Triple Deluxe doesn’t look all that impressive. It is nothing more than a light show that causes that oversized foliage to disappear and knocks Kirby into the air and it doesn’t even leave a crater.

It covered an entire planet and affected something that wasn't the foliage, so it seems to be pretty comparable to another explosion.

It’s because ShadowLBlue is having computer problems.

Oh yeah.

He hit a severely damaged area on a mechanical comet and the evidence is inconclusive (We don’t know precisely what caused NOVA to explode).

If NOVA exploded at the moment right when Marx flew into him, Marx flying into him is obviously what caused it. Also, Kirby sending Marx flying is quite the force there.

It will be easy to stomp the winged Pikmin (Olimar never got winged Pikmin) when they are carrying objects (where exactly is he storing them, his ship?).

Olimar can use Winged Pikmin in Pikmin 3, where he is playable. It would be pretty hard to stomp something that's flying. The objects would be stored in the Pikmin's hands.

Launch Stars and Mushrooms are items, Black holes are not. We have never seen a Luma make a Black hole by itself and even if they could Black Holes are super dense and would take the lion's share of a Galaxy's Star Bits to make.

Agreed.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't actually see why someone would wind up your arm, and then throw a weakened punch afterward, unless you were doing it as a joke.

Who said it was a weakened punch?

You aren't getting the point. You are comparing Super Sonic with Protect. Future Sight goes past Protect (Super Sonic) and harms the Pokemon inside (regular Sonic). When regular Sonic gets hurt, he loses more than a few rings.

Super Sonic isn't just some sort of barrier, though. Super Sonic is Sonic, whereas Protect is around the user. Regular Sonic is a nonentity while Super Sonic is in play, so the results of regular Sonic getting hit are irrelevant.

Except Sonic this is regular Sonic we're talking about, this happens right after the battle starts.

The Super Sonic transformation takes a split second.

Psychic/Confusion/TK would completely stop Sonic from moving.

Care to prove this?

If you can call for a revote on Sonic getting 999,999 Rings, I fail to see why I can't call for a revote on this, especially since the outcome would be different.

The Ring matter was "voted" for before we had a formal system.

The images I showed were all taken after two rapid pause/unpauses of the video. Two rapid pause/unpauses is the time it took for WK to cover that distance.

Rapid pauses/unpauses don't prove anything, let alone unproven ones.

What speeds?

The ones portrayed in-game.

And most of these don't run at that speed.

And the best do. Seeing as how these combatants are superhuman (in terms of leg strength and other factors that lead to running), their running would logically be superhuman as well.

Endurance does not lead to speed, also most of these guys don't have superhuman leg strength.

They can jump extremely high in the air and perform other such feats.

Yeah, but a Helper will simply prevent the opponent from attacking during the time.

How so?

Kirby's on the ground.
Kirby would be long gone before Bowser could grow into Giga Bowser.
Clown Car isn't fast enough.

Why couldn't Charizard fly close to the ground?
He could transform on the move and make do with his regular speed (not to mention Kirby's charge time).
It travels rather quickly here.

It was Kirby's intention for Meta Knight to do that.

How does Kirby summoning Meta Knight prove this?

Metaluns are definitely thicker than steel doors.

What about multiple steel doors?

Also, robots would have a bunch of delicate parts inside them, so not very thick.

I dunno, these guys look rather heavily armored:

So it's a long ranged attack?

Yes, quite.

Running and teleporting doesn't stop suction.

Running to counteract it and teleporting out of the suction do.

Actually, it was Sectonia's beam.

And Kirby gained ownership of that beam when he spit it out.

If Friendly Fire was off, the explosion wouldn't have sent Kirby flying.

It seems to only apply to damage, then (that or Kirby got sent flying by other means).

He can simply pull himself through there, and he'll be flattened in the process.

Has he done this in the past?

Their jumping is just as fast as Kirby's jumping.

And the attacker could simply attack around Kirby.

Yes, actually, he does that when he uses Rocket Dive.

Is he travelling at top speeds?

Stone Kirby plunging the Dedede Stone and completely destroying it. Recall now?

Ah yes, that. You calculated that Dedede stone is about 40 feet tall, correct? Well, going off of images from Galaxy, one Ground-Pound Rock seems to be around Mario's height. It might be a bit shorter, though, so we can shave off an inch from Mario's 5'1" height to get an even five feet. Mario can ground pound through eight of these (as demonstrated by certain levels) without losing speed. 5 feet * 8 = 40 feet. Hm, that's the height of Dedede Stone! Whaddaya know.

After Kirby hit the boss, with 100,000 with megatons of force.

What are you referring to here?

Can you show me a Luma becoming a black hole then?

Sure.

Saying that they have great control over their transformations isn't enough. Kirby has great control over his transformations too (he can combine them, access them at any time, discard them, etc.), yet he can't turn into things that he can't turn into.

Kirby can use the Sword of Fire Copy Ability, which consists of fire and a sword. He can also use these individually.

Lumas can turn into a galaxy, which consists of black holes and other things. They could also turn into these individually.

Anyway, it shouldn't matter since a Luma could just place the galaxy so that the black hole is in the right place to get Kirby.

B) That's basically nitpicking.
C) Nitpicking.
D) Creating a galaxy creates planets that would crush everyone into oblivion. Rosalina cannot reshape battlefields.

B) And it also proves that it behaves dissimilarly to a real black hole.
C) See B).
D) I fail to see how a planet would "crush everyone into oblivion."

By reshaping the battlefield, I mean creating galaxies to change up the terrain and all.

Barely. LSA/Power Bomb wouldn't do any extra damage.

As proven by?

Then Daroach's teleportation is as fast as Shadow's. Kirby can dodge one, he can dodge the other.

Daroach's teleportation + attack = Super Sonic's teleportation + attack. Kirby can dodge the former, so he can dodge the latter.

Daroach has set patterns. He always teleports to a corner (if I'm not mistaken), and if you keep moving, you should be fine.

Sonic, on the other hand, doesn't have set patterns, and will track Kirby down and teleport according to his movements (thanks in part to his lightning-fast reflexes).

That's how it's been the whole time.

Then why did you start using it for "power levels" or whatever you were doing a while back?

We don't need it demonstrated if we have a conclusion that it can.

And we haven't reached a conclusion.

• Where would the misinformation even come from?
• What could he misunderstand to conclude that the Dimensional Slicer cuts through space and time?
• That's one pretty bad typo.
• Olimar is smarter than Louie (seeing as he's the captain and all), so he'd be more immune to gaining insanity. Plus, he never showed any insanity in Pikmin 2.

• From Olimar, or perhaps faulty wiring in the ship's scanners and all (it recently crash landed on the planet, no?).
• It could be a misunderstanding on our part (not knowing what he meant by it), or on Olimar's (misunderstanding the analysis data).
• Yup.
• Being smart doesn't make you immune to insanity.

Writings about one of their observations.

An observation.

Do we see this observation?

I think all characters should not have any knowledge of other characters. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few on the roster who can figure things out. While Samus' scan visor may use the Galactic Federation databank as well as the flora and fauna databank, she has been able to scan things that require no information from said databanks. For example, I doubt the information about Chozo ghosts is something known by the GF, or Metroid Prime, or even the things found in Dark Aether or about Dark Samus. So, even if Samus goes in blind, she will be able to determine things about her enemies, Sherlock style.

Good point. I also think that characters with good evasion/durability might do well in this aspect, since they would survive long enough to read the opponent's patterns and all.

By the way, isn't Samus vulnerable while scanning?

 

[Crystanium]

Good point. I also think that characters with good evasion/durability might do well in this aspect, since they would survive long enough to read the opponent's patterns and all.

By the way, isn't Samus vulnerable while scanning?

Well, it depends on how well those characters' observational skills are.

Samus is not vulnerable while scanning. She is capable of strafing, running, and jumping while using the scan visor. Yes, the official Metroid Prime Web site says Samus cannot fire any weapons at this time. This is likely referring to game play, which is true, but there is no reason to think that Samus cannot shoot at this time, considering her arm cannon is available while scanning. In Metroid: Other M, the arm cannon is sticking out during search view and can fire if necessary.

One of the interesting things about the scan visor is that it allows Samus to also hack into computers.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, it depends on how well those characters' observational skills are.

Of course.

Samus is not vulnerable while scanning. She is capable of strafing, running, and jumping while using the scan visor. Yes, the official Metroid Prime Web site says Samus cannot fire any weapons at this time. This is likely referring to game play, which is true, but there is no reason to think that Samus cannot shoot at this time, considering her arm cannon is available while scanning. In Metroid: Other M, the arm cannon is sticking out during search view and can fire if necessary.

Can she use the Speed Booster while scanning?

If she can't shoot in gameplay, and the website says she can't shoot, I don't see why we should say otherwise.

One of the interesting things about the scan visor is that it allows Samus to also hack into computers.

Interesting. What type of computer has she hacked into?

 

[Crystanium]

Can she use the Speed Booster while scanning?

That cannot be determined. Originally, Metroid Prime was going to have the speed booster, but it was scrapped. Here are the images.

Metroid: Other M doesn't allow you to move. It's a mechanic of its own. It would have probably been possible if the nunchuk was used. Here is Samus moving while using the scan visor, though. If you want, you can even see Samus jump very high if you continue past the part where she's using the scan visor while running.

If she can't shoot in gameplay, and the website says she can't shoot, I don't see why we should say otherwise.

Because her arm cannon would actually be available and you're able to shoot in search view (MOM's version of the scan visor).

Interesting. What type of computer has she hacked into?

Space pirate computers.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Who said it was a weakened punch?

You suggested that DK was throwing weaker punches at Little Mac.

Super Sonic isn't just some sort of barrier, though. Super Sonic is Sonic, whereas Protect is around the user. Regular Sonic is a nonentity while Super Sonic is in play, so the results of regular Sonic getting hit are irrelevant.

Well, you're just disproving your own statement that Super Sonic and Protect are similar.

The Super Sonic transformation takes a split second.

Same with telekinesis.

Care to prove this?

They are telekinesis. Telekinesis can stop things from moving.

The Ring matter was "voted" for before we had a formal system.

Do we have a formal system now?

Rapid pauses/unpauses don't prove anything, let alone unproven ones.

Then go check my work to see if I'm incorrect.

The ones portrayed in-game.

Actually, this is the anime we're talking about.

And the best do. Seeing as how these combatants are superhuman (in terms of leg strength and other factors that lead to running), their running would logically be superhuman as well.

And most of these guys aren't "the best".

They can jump extremely high in the air and perform other such feats.

Most of them can't, actually.

How so?

By shooting a plasma ball/beetle/explosive coconut/etc. at the attacker's face. They only have to do this for about a second before Kirby takes off.

Why couldn't Charizard fly close to the ground?

Because Kirby will jump and use Sky Wheel to attack him.

He could transform on the move and make do with his regular speed (not to mention Kirby's charge time).

Wheel Kirby doesn't have charge time, also Bowser is slow with his regular speed.

It travels rather quickly here.

Didn't seem very fast to me.

I would also like to point out that Wheel Kirby can move across water. In order to do that, you'd have to travel at 67.1081 MPH. Who can catch him now?

How does Kirby summoning Meta Knight prove this?

If a summoner summons a summon, it's more than likely than it was the summoner's intention for the summoned summon to attack. Also, the icon for Meta Knight in the roulette is a sword, meaning it was Kirby's intention for a slashing attack.

What about multiple steel doors?

All stacked together? Kirby can melt stacks of Metal Blocks.

I dunno, these guys look rather heavily armored:

Seem just as armored as Big Metalun.

Yes, quite.

It's not a projectile though, so suction still works.

Running to counteract it and teleporting out of the suction do.

(0:40) Sonic would be sucked in in less than a second.

And Kirby gained ownership of that beam when he spit it out.

Actually, he didn't.

It seems to only apply to damage, then (that or Kirby got sent flying by other means).

It would apply to both damage and knockback, Kirby was just durable enough to tank it.

Has he done this in the past?

No, but I don't see why he couldn't do it now.

And the attacker could simply attack around Kirby.

Then Kirby falls in front of the attack.

Is he travelling at top speeds?

Yep.

Ah yes, that. You calculated that Dedede stone is about 40 feet tall, correct? Well, going off of images from Galaxy, one Ground-Pound Rock seems to be around Mario's height. It might be a bit shorter, though, so we can shave off an inch from Mario's 5'1" height to get an even five feet. Mario can ground pound through eight of these (as demonstrated by certain levels) without losing speed. 5 feet * 8 = 40 feet. Hm, that's the height of Dedede Stone! Whaddaya know.

Fair enough.

What are you referring to here?

100,000 megatons is the force needed to destroy a planet. When Kirby whacked Marx, he transferred the force into him, then Marx crashed into NOVA and transferred the force into him, thus destroying NOVA.

Sure.

I'm 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% sure that's not a black hole.

Kirby can use the Sword of Fire Copy Ability, which consists of fire and a sword. He can also use these individually.

Lumas can turn into a galaxy, which consists of black holes and other things. They could also turn into these individually.

Actually, Fire and Sword came before Sword of Fire, they were then combined to create that ability. Galaxies that Lumas turn into are not created by combining things they could already turn into.

Anyway, it shouldn't matter since a Luma could just place the galaxy so that the black hole is in the right place to get Kirby.

Lumas don't have control over what goes where in the galaxies they become. If they did, they would've put all the black holes at the top so none of them would threaten Mario.

B) And it also proves that it behaves dissimilarly to a real black hole.
C) See B).
D) I fail to see how a planet would "crush everyone into oblivion."

B) Mario behaves dissimilarly to a real human (humans don't use power-ups to beat up firebreathing turtles). Mario is still a human.
D) Let's take Venus, a rather small planet. It has a radius of 3760 miles. The combatants in this thread have an average radii of say, 2 feet. I think you see where I'm going with this.

By reshaping the battlefield, I mean creating galaxies to change up the terrain and all.

Rosalina can't do that.

As proven by?

The explosion didn't do any.

Daroach has set patterns. He always teleports to a corner (if I'm not mistaken), and if you keep moving, you should be fine.

I believe that's not correct.

Sonic, on the other hand, doesn't have set patterns, and will track Kirby down and teleport according to his movements (thanks in part to his lightning-fast reflexes).

Daroach can teleport straight into Kirby like Sonic can at the same speed, yet Kirby can dodge it.

Then why did you start using it for "power levels" or whatever you were doing a while back?

I was trying to use it at the beginning, but Shadow (I think), you, and Dryn started bashing it and calling it inaccurate.

And we haven't reached a conclusion.

We haven't. Olimar has.

• From Olimar, or perhaps faulty wiring in the ship's scanners and all (it recently crash landed on the planet, no?).
• It could be a misunderstanding on our part (not knowing what he meant by it), or on Olimar's (misunderstanding the analysis data).
• Yup.
• Being smart doesn't make you immune to insanity.

• What would be the actual information as opposed to the misinformation? Also, Olimar wrote about the slicer in his journal. Olimar's pencil does not have faulty wiring.
• So what would Olimar see that makes him think the knife cuts through space and time, other than the knife actually cutting through space and time?
  
• Not a typo at all, really.
• Definition of insanity is "extreme foolishness or irrationality", smart people don't have those. Also, Olimar didn't show any insanity.

Do we see this observation?

No, but we don't need to, because there's a conclusion on it.

 

[Munomario777]

That cannot be determined. Originally, Metroid Prime was going to have the speed booster, but it was scrapped. Here are the images.

I see. I think we should let her use it then, since it's an extension of running and all.

Metroid: Other M doesn't allow you to move. It's a mechanic of its own. It would have probably been possible if the nunchuk was used. Here is Samus moving while using the scan visor, though. If you want, you can even see Samus jump very high if you continue past the part where she's using the scan visor while running.

Yeah, that does seem to be due to controller restraints and all.

Because her arm cannon would actually be available and you're able to shoot in search view (MOM's version of the scan visor).

If the game and its website make a point that the arm cannon cannot be used at the same time, we should stick to that.

Space pirate computers.

I see. I'm wondering if Samus would be able to hack into, say, Mega Man. Does this require an access port of some kind, or no?

You suggested that DK was throwing weaker punches at Little Mac.

Ah yes, that.

Well, you're just disproving your own statement that Super Sonic and Protect are similar.

They're similar in what they block, but different in what happens when an attack gets through.

Same with telekinesis.

So Mewtwo would be trying to TK Super Sonic, which wouldn't work.

They are telekinesis. Telekinesis can stop things from moving.

Do they serve this function in the games?

Do we have a formal system now?

Yes; we keep track of rules that are voted for in formal lists (the ones kept by Shadow) and every vote has users tagged and such.

Then go check my work to see if I'm incorrect.

It's your job to prove your point, not mine.

Actually, this is the anime we're talking about.

Ah, okay. Do you have a video of its speed?

And most of these guys aren't "the best".

Correct. They're better than "the best".

Most of them can't, actually.

Really? Let's look at the characters I listed and see whether or not they have superhuman jumping or running.
: Yes
: Yes
: Yes
: Yes (see 3D World's pre-final boss cutscene for a good example)
: Yes (is rather agile in the anime and such if I'm not mistaken)
: Yes (Shadow Mario is as agile as Mario)
: No (but has fast flying instead)
: Yes
: Yes
: No (but has teleportation etc instead)
: No (but has fast flying instead)
: Yes (is rather quick if I'm not mistaken)
: Yes (especially with the Brawler Gloves)
: Yes (with Super Speed)

By shooting a plasma ball/beetle/explosive coconut/etc. at the attacker's face. They only have to do this for about a second before Kirby takes off.

And how will this prevent them from attacking straight through them and at Kirby?

Because Kirby will jump and use Sky Wheel to attack him.

Does Kirby retain his speed and increased durability during this?

Wheel Kirby doesn't have charge time, also Bowser is slow with his regular speed.

Wheel Kirby does have charge time thanks to Air Ride (which is also where we get his top speed).

As for Bowser, his jumps are rather quick (see 3D Land's final boss for a good example of this).

Didn't seem very fast to me.

The Clown Car zooms off the screen at high speeds.

I would also like to point out that Wheel Kirby can move across water. In order to do that, you'd have to travel at 67.1081 MPH. Who can catch him now?

A) Gameplay > real life physics. If Wheel Kirby isn't stated to move at that speed, then he's not.
B) That's not true even in real life; see the basilisk (a lizard that can run on water).

If a summoner summons a summon, it's more than likely than it was the summoner's intention for the summoned summon to attack. Also, the icon for Meta Knight in the roulette is a sword, meaning it was Kirby's intention for a slashing attack.

Likelihood and an icon =/= proof.

All stacked together? Kirby can melt stacks of Metal Blocks.

How thick are these stacks?

Seem just as armored as Big Metalun.

These are much more heavy-duty and combat-ready than a chunk of metal.

It's not a projectile though, so suction still works.

That's assuming that Kirby could even react to a light-speed attack.

(0:40) Sonic would be sucked in in less than a second.

Sonic is larger than that.

Actually, he didn't.

It's his laser once he spits it out. A Waddle Doo, for example, cannot harm another Waddle Doo until Kirby spits it back out. Same with the laser.

It would apply to both damage and knockback, Kirby was just durable enough to tank it.

And yet he is still hurt by a simple spike.

No, but I don't see why he couldn't do it now.

Because he lacks the strength to get it off the ground so he could get underneath it and thus get crushed.

Then Kirby falls in front of the attack.

And what if the attack is too quick? Or if there are two attacks, preventing Kirby from blocking both at once? Or the attack has an AOE that is larger than Kirby can block?

Yep.

I see.

100,000 megatons is the force needed to destroy a planet. When Kirby whacked Marx, he transferred the force into him, then Marx crashed into NOVA and transferred the force into him, thus destroying NOVA.

Or Marx's force caused it instead. I could push a bomb off of a cliff and cause it to detonate, but I do not possess that bomb's amount of force.

I'm 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% sure that's not a black hole.

It's a galaxy containing multiple black holes.

Actually, Fire and Sword came before Sword of Fire, they were then combined to create that ability. Galaxies that Lumas turn into are not created by combining things they could already turn into.

Sword + Fire = Sword of Fire. Black hole + everything else = a galaxy.

Lumas don't have control over what goes where in the galaxies they become. If they did, they would've put all the black holes at the top so none of them would threaten Mario.

That's because the game would be too easy. It's the same reason that you still have to pay for the items you're using to save the world and things like that.

B) Mario behaves dissimilarly to a real human (humans don't use power-ups to beat up firebreathing turtles). Mario is still a human.

Mario is different from a regular human, so we treat him differently from a regular human.

The enemy is different from a regular black hole, so we treat it differently from a regular black hole.

D) Let's take Venus, a rather small planet. It has a radius of 3760 miles. The combatants in this thread have an average radii of say, 2 feet. I think you see where I'm going with this.

The planets in Galaxy are much smaller than that.

Rosalina can't do that.

Lumas can.

The explosion didn't do any.

And every other attack does.

I believe that's not correct.

He still does have a rather predictable pattern, though.

Daroach can teleport straight into Kirby like Sonic can at the same speed, yet Kirby can dodge it.

And yet he mostly teleports away from Kirby and fires a ranged attack. He teleports to a random location, and if he happens to hit Kirby, it's just a coincidence. Sonic, on the other hand, would actively track Kirby down.

I was trying to use it at the beginning, but Shadow (I think), you, and Dryn started bashing it and calling it inaccurate.

Mhm.

We haven't. Olimar has.

And it hasn't been proven.

• What would be the actual information as opposed to the misinformation? Also, Olimar wrote about the slicer in his journal. Olimar's pencil does not have faulty wiring.
• So what would Olimar see that makes him think the knife cuts through space and time, other than the knife actually cutting through space and time?
  
• Not a typo at all, really.
• Definition of insanity is "extreme foolishness or irrationality", smart people don't have those. Also, Olimar didn't show any insanity.

• The actual occurrence could have been anything with a faulty scanner in the analyzer.
• The knife cutting through an element in space/time, rather than space/time itself. For example, a piece of paper exists in both space and time, but it is neither.
• It could be. That or a translation error, but I dunno.
• Actually, smart people might be more likely to go insane.

No, but we don't need to, because there's a conclusion on it.

An unproven conclusion.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Olimar is smarter than Louie (seeing as he's the captain and all), so he'd be more immune to gaining insanity. Plus, he never showed any insanity in Pikmin 2.

Olimar starts going nutty towards the end of Pikmin 1 in his logs if he starts getting close to the 30 day limit http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Olimar's_Voyage_Log days 25 and 26.

And the best do. Seeing as how these combatants are superhuman (in terms of leg strength and other factors that lead to running), their running would logically be superhuman as well.

Sure.

Lumas can turn into a galaxy, which consists of black holes and other things. They could also turn into these individually.

Anyway, it shouldn't matter since a Luma could just place the galaxy so that the black hole is in the right place to get Kirby.

Then why did you start using it for "power levels" or whatever you were doing a while back?

Leg strength only helps jumping, running is affected by other factors like having more legs or leg length. @Dryn Could you help end this argument?

There are no Black Holes in that level (Sweet Sweet galaxy).

What makes you think Lumas have that kind of control when making Galaxies? If they can’t even get Mario’s landing point and the Power Star on the same platform what makes you think they can place Black Holes with any degree of accuracy. What makes this worst is they aren’t creating Galaxies in empty space but on the surface of a terrestrial world in this case (something they haven‘t done in the Galaxy games to my knowledge). Any objects created under these circumstances would just fall to the ground due to gravity except the Black Holes which would just tunnel through the ground.

D) Let's take Venus, a rather small planet. It has a radius of 3760 miles. The combatants in this thread have an average radii of say, 2 feet. I think you see where I'm going with this.

Kirby can’t suck up that mole with Supernova? It looks a bit weaker than I expected.

Don’t you mean Diameter?

These are much more heavy-duty and combat-ready than a chunk of metal.

It's a galaxy containing multiple black holes.

Actually, smart people might be more likely to go insane.

Robots tend to have vitals that can be broken like everything else, the Metaluns on the other hand might not have vitals as we know them which might explain their higher than average durability.

Then where are they? Did you put up the wrong link?

I'm starting to suspect that's true.



When ranking Pokemon against one another don’t forget to take their speed stats into account to see who gets 1st strike!
Base stats:
Mewtwo: 130 (140) speed.
Greninja: 122 speed.
Charizard: 100 speed.
Lucario: 90 (112) speed.
Pikachu: 90 speed.
Venusaur: 80 speed.
Blastoise: 78 speed.
Lapras: 60 speed.
Pichu: 60 speed.
Snorlax: 30 speed.
Jigglypuff: 20 speed.

Number in parenthesis is with Mega Evolution.

Notes on Greninja:

Greninja’s Protean can grant Immunities to: Normal, Fighting, Ground, Ghost, Electric and Psychic type attacks.
He can also get resistances to: everything minus Dragon type attacks.

Greninja can’t shift to Steel, Fire, Electric, Dragon or Fairy types.

 

[Munomario777]

Leg strength only helps jumping, running is affected by other factors like having more legs or leg length. @Dryn Could you help end this argument?

Running is done with the legs, so stronger legs will help running. With weak legs, you won't be going very fast anytime soon.

There are no Black Holes in that level (Sweet Sweet galaxy).

Oops, my bad. Sling Pod Galaxy contains some.

What makes you think Lumas have that kind of control when making Galaxies? If they can’t even get Mario’s landing point and the Power Star on the same platform what makes you think they can place Black Holes with any degree of accuracy.

That's due to game design. If the Lumas did that, the game would be too easy.

What makes this worst is they aren’t creating Galaxies in empty space but on the surface of a terrestrial world in this case (something they haven‘t done in the Galaxy games to my knowledge). Any objects created under these circumstances would just fall to the ground due to gravity except the Black Holes which would just tunnel through the ground.

While that could be the case, there are a few things that lead me to believe otherwise:
A) The Launch Stars that Lumas turn into hover just fine.
B) The planetoids that Lumas turn into within galaxies stay there, in spite of the galaxy's "universal gravity" (i.e. always straight down into a void rather than towards a planetoid).

Robots tend to have vitals that can be broken like everything else, the Metaluns on the other hand might not have vitals as we know them which might explain their higher than average durability.

That could be the case.

Then where are they? Did you put up the wrong link?

Yes I did.

When ranking Pokemon against one another don’t forget to take their speed stats into account to see who gets 1st strike!
Base stats:
Mewtwo: 130 (140) speed.
Greninja: 122 speed.
Charizard: 100 speed.
Lucario: 90 (112) speed.
Pikachu: 90 speed.
Venusaur: 80 speed.
Blastoise: 78 speed.
Lapras: 60 speed.
Pichu: 60 speed.
Snorlax: 30 speed.
Jigglypuff: 20 speed.

Number in parenthesis is with Mega Evolution.

Notes on Greninja:

Greninja’s Protean can grant Immunities to: Normal, Fighting, Ground, Ghost, Electric and Psychic type attacks.
He can also get resistances to: everything minus Dragon type attacks.

Greninja can’t shift to Steel, Fire, Electric, Dragon or Fairy types.

Nice. It's always good to have the specifics when dealing with this sort of thing.

 

[Crystanium]

If the game and its website make a point that the arm cannon cannot be used at the same time, we should stick to that.

Even though her arm cannon is available? The only thing we see Samus use for the scan visor is her left arm, not right. But, even if you want to work with that, I don't see it making any difference for Samus, since even using search view, she can use sense move to avoid attack. I'm also wondering what "health" would mean, since in MOM, Samus can find out how much health her opponent has.

I see. I'm wondering if Samus would be able to hack into, say, Mega Man. Does this require an access port of some kind, or no?

That's what I'm wondering. Samus doesn't need an access port. If anything, it's wireless. Anyway, I posted in the Talk section at Wikitroid a few years ago about the scan visor. It has a bioscan, scans flora and fauna, the way a creature died, or the age of an object. There's also the radscan, which allows Samus to acquire information on radioactive substances. Tactical scan informs Samus of ways to defeat her opponent(s). She can also perform structural analyses, such as the integrity of the structure and if there are microfractures present. So, the scan visor is pretty useful.

Leg strength only helps jumping, running is affected by other factors like having more legs or leg length. @Dryn Could you help end this argument?

Well, it would seem to make sense that jumping higher means running faster, simply because when you run, you kind of jump. I've read somewhere that running at supersonic speeds would result in leaping forward, rather than hitting the ground with your feet very fast. The correlation between jumping and sprinting isn't entirely certain.

Also, for anyone who is interested, according to Jason Wu, Little Mac's strongest punch produces 5,394.4076 N (1,212.71 pounds-force).

 

[Munomario777]

Even though her arm cannon is available? The only thing we see Samus use for the scan visor is her left arm, not right. But, even if you want to work with that, I don't see it making any difference for Samus, since even using search view, she can use sense move to avoid attack. I'm also wondering what "health" would mean, since in MOM, Samus can find out how much health her opponent has.

Yes, because that's how it works in-game.

Has Search View been shown to identify the sort of object that you listed for the scan visor (as in, ones not documented by the GF and all)?

As for "health", I'd imagine it's just how much durability/energy/etc. they have left, or how much longer until they're finished.

That's what I'm wondering. Samus doesn't need an access port. If anything, it's wireless. Anyway, I posted in the Talk section at Wikitroid a few years ago about the scan visor. It has a bioscan, scans flora and fauna, the way a creature died, or the age of an object. There's also the radscan, which allows Samus to acquire information on radioactive substances. Tactical scan informs Samus of ways to defeat her opponent(s). She can also perform structural analyses, such as the integrity of the structure and if there are microfractures present. So, the scan visor is pretty useful.

Interesting.

Well, it would seem to make sense that jumping higher means running faster, simply because when you run, you kind of jump. I've read somewhere that running at supersonic speeds would result in leaping forward, rather than hitting the ground with your feet very fast. The correlation between jumping and sprinting isn't entirely certain.

I see. Very interesting.

Also, for anyone who is interested, according to Jason Wu, Little Mac's strongest punch produces 5,394.4076 N (1,212.71 pounds-force).

Interesting calculations, but that's based on Smash, which is non-canon.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, because that's how it works in-game.

So does walking in the x- and y-axes while being incapable of walking in the z-axis. Not everything that occurs in-game is accurate if we are going to be using some realism. The things that are unrealistic, such as jumping hundreds of meters in the air by leg strength alone is what we call "suspension of disbelief".

Has Search View been shown to identify the sort of object that you listed for the scan visor (as in, ones not documented by the GF and all)?

It'll identify what the object is, but it won't go into detail. It's to be expected because while the inspiration was likely based off the Metroid Prime trilogy, there were limitations not just with the controls, but with the memory of the game. I recall reading that a lot of the cut-scenes that were going to be used, had to be removed because the game was just so large.

As for "health", I'd imagine it's just how much durability/energy/etc. they have left, or how much longer until they're finished.

I'm just wondering how that would behave on a HUD.

Interesting calculations, but that's based on Smash, which is non-canon.

Perhaps, but here's what's interesting about the Super Smash Bros. series. It could be used to learn more about a series. The idea that Metroids were parasites first originated from Super Smash Bros. Melee. The sex of Ridley was identified as "male" in Super Smash Bros. Melee, using male pronouns, since in no Metroid manual before that used male or female pronouns. The origin of Samus being from planet K-2L also started with Super Smash Bros. Melee. Samus' pistol was called "paralyzer" first in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

I think Little Mac's punch would be reasonable for a boxer, though. I think boxers tend to have a lower force, but I could be wrong.

 

[Munomario777]

So does walking in the x- and y-axes while being incapable of walking in the z-axis. Not everything that occurs in-game is accurate if we are going to be using some realism. The things that are unrealistic, such as jumping hundreds of meters in the air by leg strength alone is what we call "suspension of disbelief".

The z axis example is different from the scan visor case in a few ways:
A) The 2D nature of the game is constantly in play, whereas Samus isn't restricted arm cannon-wise unless she's using the visor (among some other scenarios I'd imagine).
B) The arm cannon being restricted is referenced on the game's website. You could say that this is also true for the axis example, but what's interesting is how it's said. A game with the axis restriction might be described as "a 2.5D action-adventure game" or something along those lines. However, when we take a look at the Scan Visor's description...

Samus is unable to fire any weapons while using the Scan Visor

Note how Samus is the subject here. Whereas the axis example would refer to the game, this seems to be focusing on Samus and what she can and cannot do, rather than what can be done in the game.
C) The axis example doesn't have much explanation, whereas the scan visor case could be described as the suit's processing power being focused on the scanning (I could see it being rather resource intensive), and thus unable to do much else besides basic movement.

It'll identify what the object is, but it won't go into detail. It's to be expected because while the inspiration was likely based off the Metroid Prime trilogy, there were limitations not just with the controls, but with the memory of the game. I recall reading that a lot of the cut-scenes that were going to be used, had to be removed because the game was just so large.

I see. It seems odd given that a Wii disc is more spacious than a GameCube disc (at least, I'd assume so), but it might just be because of all of the other stuff crammed into Other M.

I'm just wondering how that would behave on a HUD.

Ah. I'm imagining it taking the form of some sort of vitality analysis, perhaps showing the target's physical structure and where they're injured, as well as general vitality stuffs like pulse and whatnot. I'm not sure though, it's really up in the air. It could also be just a "vitality number" based on the above data. It is displayed as an HP bar/number/etc. in game, after all, is it not?

Perhaps, but here's what's interesting about the Super Smash Bros. series. It could be used to learn more about a series. The idea that Metroids were parasites first originated from Super Smash Bros. Melee. The sex of Ridley was identified as "male" in Super Smash Bros. Melee, using male pronouns, since in no Metroid manual before that used male or female pronouns. The origin of Samus being from planet K-2L also started with Super Smash Bros. Melee. Samus' pistol was called "paralyzer" first in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

While it can be used for that purpose, that's only when it's consistent with/fits within the main canon. Metroids look like parasites (they latch onto the victim's head). Ridley looks believably male. Samus seems rather human, so it makes sense that she's from an earth colony. Her pistol paralyzes people (and/or aliens), so the name fits.

In Punch-Out!!, Little Mac is consistently portrayed as the underdog, the weakling. He's much weaker and less durable than most other boxers, and his punches don't send people flying like they do in Smash. It's an inconsistency, so we go with the main canon.

I think Little Mac's punch would be reasonable for a boxer, though. I think boxers tend to have a lower force, but I could be wrong.

It seems that elite boxers can punch with a bit more force, but I doubt someone like Mac (who is comparatively weak as far as boxers go) could deliver that sort of force.

 

[Crystanium]

The z axis example is different from the scan visor case in a few ways:
A) The 2D nature of the game is constantly in play, whereas Samus isn't restricted arm cannon-wise unless she's using the visor (among some other scenarios I'd imagine).
B) The arm cannon being restricted is referenced on the game's website. You could say that this is also true for the axis example, but what's interesting is how it's said. A game with the axis restriction might be described as "a 2.5D action-adventure game" or something along those lines. However, when we take a look at the Scan Visor's description...

Note how Samus is the subject here. Whereas the axis example would refer to the game, this seems to be focusing on Samus and what she can and cannot do, rather than what can be done in the game.
C) The axis example doesn't have much explanation, whereas the scan visor case could be described as the suit's processing power being focused on the scanning (I could see it being rather resource intensive), and thus unable to do much else besides basic movement.

Well, that's a fair enough argument with regard to my analogical argument. That's an interesting interpretation about the scanning itself. I think it's worth noting, however, that even if this should be the case, Samus can switch out of this mode at any time and counter with an attack. The scan visor will stop where it was scanning last, meaning that if Samus was half way through with her scan, the next time she wants to scan the same target, she'll only have to finish where she left off last. This also applies in MOM.

Ah. I'm imagining it taking the form of some sort of vitality analysis, perhaps showing the target's physical structure and where they're injured, as well as general vitality stuffs like pulse and whatnot. I'm not sure though, it's really up in the air. It could also be just a "vitality number" based on the above data. It is displayed as an HP bar/number/etc. in game, after all, is it not?

Probably. In MOM, it shows up as a health bar, though, but we could interpret it that way. After all, the scan visor is able to detect if a target is injured, how it probably got injured, or if the target is dead. In Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, after defeating the Chykka, if you scan it, it'll say the likelihood of resurrecting is zero as its vitals are flatlined.

While it can be used for that purpose, that's only when it's consistent with/fits within the main canon. Metroids look like parasites (they latch onto the victim's head). Ridley looks believably male. Samus seems rather human, so it makes sense that she's from an earth colony. Her pistol paralyzes people (and/or aliens), so the name fits.

Metroids are more like predators, really, just like how Samus fits the description of a mercenary, not a bounty hunter. But yeah, I still thought it would be interesting to point out.

It seems that elite boxers can punch with a bit more force, but I doubt someone like Mac (who is comparatively weak as far as boxers go) could deliver that sort of force.

1,300 pounds-force (5,782.66 N) looks like the highest, though 1,420 pounds-force (6,316.44 N) was extrapolated, according to your source. Honestly, with those numbers, Little Mac's punch wouldn't be unusual. He has the uppercut, but the only difference is he's not causing his opponent to fly as high as he does in SSB4. If we take Donkey Kong's mass, which may be around 135 to 180 kg., then if we went with 135 kg., the gravitational force should be 1324.35 N (297.73 pounds-force).

 

[Munomario777]

Well, that's a fair enough argument with regard to my analogical argument. That's an interesting interpretation about the scanning itself. I think it's worth noting, however, that even if this should be the case, Samus can switch out of this mode at any time and counter with an attack. The scan visor will stop where it was scanning last, meaning that if Samus was half way through with her scan, the next time she wants to scan the same target, she'll only have to finish where she left off last. This also applies in MOM.

I see. About how long does the scanning process take?

Probably. In MOM, it shows up as a health bar, though, but we could interpret it that way. After all, the scan visor is able to detect if a target is injured, how it probably got injured, or if the target is dead. In Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, after defeating the Chykka, if you scan it, it'll say the likelihood of resurrecting is zero as its vitals are flatlined.

Very interesting.

Metroids are more like predators, really, just like how Samus fits the description of a mercenary, not a bounty hunter. But yeah, I still thought it would be interesting to point out.

I suppose so.

1,300 pounds-force (5,782.66 N) looks like the highest, though 1,420 pounds-force (6,316.44 N) was extrapolated, according to your source. Honestly, with those numbers, Little Mac's punch wouldn't be unusual. He has the uppercut, but the only difference is he's not causing his opponent to fly as high as he does in SSB4. If we take Donkey Kong's mass, which may be around 135 to 180 kg., then if we went with 135 kg., the gravitational force should be 1324.35 N (297.73 pounds-force).

Still, I'd prefer if we used the source material over Smash, especially when the calculations are based on a game mechanic of the series (knockback and the % meter).

 

[Crystanium]

I see. About how long does the scanning process take?

It varies. It could be very fast, or it could take a couple of seconds. That could be interpreted as how much information Samus is acquiring.

Still, I'd prefer if we used the source material over Smash, especially when the calculations are based on a game mechanic of the series (knockback and the % meter).

I was using Punch-Out!! this time.

 

[Munomario777]

It varies. It could be very fast, or it could take a couple of seconds. That could be interpreted as how much information Samus is acquiring.

Interesting. What are some high-end and low-end examples, and how much data is Samus scanning in those instances?

I was using Punch-Out!! this time.

Oh, really? May I ask what footage you're using?

 

[Crystanium]

Interesting. What are some high-end and low-end examples, and how much data is Samus scanning in those instances?

In this video, I'm finding anywhere from under to at least one second, while the Parasite Queen takes roughly three seconds.

Oh, really? May I ask what footage you're using?

 

[Munomario777]

In this video, I'm finding anywhere from under to at least one second, while the Parasite Queen takes roughly three seconds.

I see. Good to know.

I assume you mean the KO at the end, then?