Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

Because his incarnation from SSBB and SSB4 is his human form.

We're using multiple incarnations here, though.

I really wish I had my copy of Kirby Returns to Dreamland to test crash out.

I think there was a video of it posted earlier.

We wouldn't use force. We would use joules. I'm not sure how much crash does. I think instead of working with Kirby, we should move onto the next largest enemy who can be killed in one hit and try to find the amount of energy required to kill it. You and I both know that textual data doesn't always match up with visual data. In terms of hierarchy, textual evidence would be above visual evidence.

Yes, joules. That's what I meant. I agree that we should work with the enemies rather than Kirby, since they're the ones being vaporized.

 

[Crystanium]

We're using multiple incarnations here, though.

He cannot be human and beast simultaneously.

 

[Munomario777]

He cannot be human and beast simultaneously.

He can transform between human and beast forms.

 

[Crystanium]

He can transform between human and beast forms.

I'm not denying that fact.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm not denying that fact.

So what is your point, then?

 

[Crystanium]

So what is your point, then?

He's in his human incarnation.

 

[Munomario777]

He's in his human incarnation.

Which can turn into a beast form.

 

[Crystanium]

Which can turn into a beast form.

Which typically occurs after his human form has been defeated.

 

[Munomario777]

Which typically occurs after his human form has been defeated.

Why would that prevent him from accessing it here?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Well, I remember we excluded psychic attacks that don't attack the brain directly (ex: confusion) but yea

Unless used for telekinesis, I'm pretty sure Confusion does go to the brain, and cause it to be confused.

Wheel moves slowly enough for a few characters to catch Kirby. Remember, the scale is smaller since Kirby is smaller.

A few characters, but I believe Kirby can dodge most of them with ease.

Same for Super Sonic. The part after the Emeralds were extracted was Sonic turning into a Werehog, which is a result of Dark Gaia being awakened, not the machine itself. Protect's invincibility and Sonic's invincibility are similar. Since invincibility is the only relevant factor here, I see no issue.

Well, actually, as we determined earlier, psychic moves that affect the brain would work on Super Sonic. So Skill Swap could fail, but Trick would work well.

And?

Another example of things that affect Super Sonic, but not someone using Protect.

Magic is one-time-use, and only has a chance of summoning Meta Knight. And even then, he just slashes at the enemies on screen.

Kirby can stop the roulette on whatever he wants, so he could just stop it on Meta Knight. Meta Knight only slashes the enemies because that's what Kirby wants him to do. It's not like he's only able to slash enemies and nothing else.

Has he picked up something that large, spiky, quickly spinning, etc. before?

No, so he picks up Sonic when he's not in ball form.

A Super Missile explosion is larger than that.

Can I see some proof?

Until you provide an example of the Ultra Sword burrowing through concrete, we can pass this off as hyperbole.

I think chopping a volcano in half qualifies.

Has Kirby lifted an object of this size before?

That's irrelevant, seeing as throwing strength is the same strength as lifting strength.

You don't need to dodge if you're already at a decent distance. Since Kirby is vulnerable during this, it leaves him wide open for an attack.

Kirby wouldn't even use the attack if the opponent wasn't close up. Also, most of these guys can't attack while they're being hit.

Mario could likely survive this, because he can survive lava balls.

It wouldn't OHKO him, but it would still prove a decent attack.

Chopping something in half =/= burrowing through it to escape.

Kirby wouldn't be burrowing, he'd be slicing through the concrete to create holes.

He only teleported a short distance, and the Clown Car seems to be rather thick. Plus, there's a bit of a delay, and the Invincibility Candy would likely be almost out by then (so Bowser could then start attacking).

How would Bowser even attack if Kirby is under the Clown Car? And the Clown Car being thick isn't any excuse for Kirby not being able to teleport past it.

I will now bring up Digger, that can drill through crystal.

He can't turn around while inhaling.

That's more of a game mechanic.

If a Luma turns into a galaxy, however, it would just end up killing everything in the arena, including Rosalina and all the Lumas, so that would be pretty pointless.

It goes down it a bit at 18:50.

Half the stone is 29 Kirbies tall, so the whole stone is 58.

58 x 8 = 464
464 divided by 12 = 38

Dedede Stone is somewhere around 40 feet tall.

I doubt that they're the exact same.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(Canon)
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Knuckles_the_Echidna
They are both described as city level when in base form (no Super forms).

Bowser is much more powerful than Small Mario (Small Mario can jump and run; Bowser can break through an entire castle), and yet the latter defeated the former. Feel free to prove that Small Mario is stronger than Bowser in that fight.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Mario_(Composite)
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Bowser
Mario in base form (no power-ups) and Bowser in large form are both the same tier.

He doesn't have those in the battle against Bowser, though.

Mega Mushroom + Fire Orb Mario is more powerful than base form Mario, who defeated Bowser, meaning Mega Mushroom + Fire Orb Mario is more powerful than Bowser.

If your vehicle is faster in a race, you're more likely to win a race.

Though there are several factors to interfere with the race to make it an inaccurate source of who can beat who. Not to mention, the speed of the vehicles is constantly changing.

You're using circular reasoning here.

Though, seeing as Little Mac defeated those guys, that means he has superior strength, speed, reflexes, and endurance (as are the requirements for winning a boxing match). Those are the only things the opponents have for them, meaning Mac is more powerful than them.

Let's see. There's turning into a razor-sharp spinning ball and homing in on Kirby at light speed, using the Boost to bust through him, ranged wind attacks, freezing time, and teleportation, to name a few.

• Stone
• Stone
• Stone
• Super Abilities
• Teleportation

You're saying that it is impossible. If it can be done, it is not impossible. Pichus can beat Pikachus, so it is not impossible.

Then it's not impossible (in one universe only).

 

[Crystanium]

Why would that prevent him from accessing it here?

It wouldn't. Only his character would.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Could you repost?

What are each of his teammates ultimate weapon? Also, doesn't this mean he could make one of Reyn's shields and attack with the Monado, to further protect himself from projectiles?

Hmmm, good point. Can't we just call it a game mechanic that they don't bother to increase the range? I doubt they (heroes or villains) would intentionally use a weapon that covers less distance inside a castle.

True, but Link has the Nice Fire/Ice Rod, 3 Medallions, and other weapons.

I thought of why Bionis creatures can harm you with Mechon Armor: Maybe Mechon armor only negates (well, reduces to 1) all physical damage if it connects all over your body? There are still openings to the organic parts of the bodies of the playable characters.

As you requested @ ShadowLBlue !

Shulk’s capabilities:

Spoiler: Shulk’s Cutscene Feats: Heavy Spoilers for Xenoblade

Shulk vs assorted Mechon and Metal Face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmMj_A_GLcU&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=6: Homs strength and durability(Colonel Vangarre survives that explosion and being buried in debris to fight again later)=5:08-6:20, Shulk’s visions and Reflexes(both melee and projectile)=13:50-15:30, Shulk’s strength, ability to recognize weak points and skill against towering foes=22:45-23:10.

Shulk vs Arachno Queen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imKVglbON1w&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=8: Monado Shield in action (note the Arachno Queen bouncing off and being momentarily stunned)=3:43-4:17. Arachno Queen recoil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&v=imKVglbON1w#t=222

Shulk vs Mechon M71 and Xord: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18N8VjDQR8E&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=11: Shulk’s reflexes and Monado Speed in action=4:18-6:23, Shulk‘s reflexes, surefootedness and ability to sense ambushers=15:04-16:48.

Shulk vs Metal Face round 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jgp5KelTdE&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=18: Shulk’s durability=11:50-12:30, more durability and the Monado melting through Face armor=16:50-17:20 and 18:09-18:20.

Shulk vs Puera Telethia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm955w13LVw&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=25: Shulk’s durability, ability to learn new Monado Arts through observation and Monado Purge‘s crippling effect on large enemies=26:19-29:15.

Shulk vs Leone Telethia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK0GyJaD4&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=30: Monado Purge’s almost as crippling effect on very large enemies (They can still struggle a bit)=16:10-16:32

Shulk vs Metal Face round 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-5rhe7ekhA&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=40: The sheer length of Monado Buster=25:55-26:10 and 29:33-29:36

Shulk vs assorted Mechon on Fallen Arm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFRIbj0Zuv0&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=54: Shulk overcomes the effects of the Apocrypha Generator on the Monado(Arguably the first time Shulk manifest his Monado‘s power)=24:19-25:05.

Shulk vs Jade Face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-j9JSiuVA0&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=68: Shulk starts seeing the future without getting visions (another example of his own Monado‘s power)=19:25-19:57

Shulk vs Jade Face round 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...ist=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=1041: Shulk foresees another attack and deflects a projectile=17:21-17:30

Feats up to Mechonis Core: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo7bMhr2KzQ&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=82: 1:15-1:58=Shulk explains his visionless future sight+ funny example, 2:19-2:57=Shulk recovers quickly from being electrocuted.

Shulk vs Yaldabaoth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=535: 8:56-9:30=Shulk shows off insane strength, reflexes and jumping capabilities while under the effects of Monado Speed.

Shulk vs Telethia attack force: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4b9KdZ7fuU&index=86: 4:05-5:01=Shulk single handedly takes down a very large Telethia and evades and counters two smaller ones, 7:57-8:22=Shulk explains how he can see the future without the Monado, 12:05-12:11=Shulk blocks a bullet.

Shulk vs Zanza: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUs8P8PcHw&list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&index=101: 19:33-20:05=Shulk performs some impressive acrobatics on the final boss, 23:44-24:43=The Monado III’s god slaying capability in action.

Spoiler: Game Mechanics

In gameplay Shulk receives visions whenever a targeted party member’s HP is brought down to 10% or less by an enemy’s charged attack Art. Talent arts can be seen 15 seconds ahead of time while non-Talent arts will have only an 8 second timer (12 with Fight the Future). Inflicting Topple on the assailant will extend the timer. Inflicting Daze or Sleep will force it to switch attacks and reset the timer.
Characters under the effect of Topple or Daze are unable to act or defend against attacks, and the effects stack (Ex. 3 seconds of Topple+2 seconds of Daze=5 seconds of helplessness).

Normal Arts: Arts require a Cooldown period after use. Offensive arts also have a hit rate bonus of 25 over auto attacks. Stats are for Max level Arts.

Slit Edge=has a range of 4 meters, damage multiplier of 204%, Side hit inflicts Physical defense down 50%(increases physical damage received by 50%) for 9.5 Seconds. cool down: 8.2 seconds.
Back Slash=has a range of 4 meters, damage multiplier of 380%, Back hit: Damage*2(*3 with Element of Surprise). cool down: 14.6 seconds.
Shaker Edge=has a range of 4 meters damage multiplier of 246%, Topple hit: inflicts Daze for 2 Seconds. cool down: 14.8 seconds.
Air Slash=has a range of 4 meters, damage multiplier of 303%, inflicts break for 9.5 seconds, side hit inflicts slow(Auto attack speed and movement speed drop dramatically) for 9.5 seconds. cool down: 8.3 seconds.
Stream Edge=has a range of 8 meters, hits in a arc, damage multiplier of 303%, inflicts break for 12 seconds and refills talent gauge 15% per enemy hit. cool down: 21.9 seconds.
Shadow Eye=boosts physical art damage by 50% for 5 seconds. cool down: 36.9 seconds.
Light Heal=restores 1463-1763HP. cool down: 18.3 seconds.
Battle Soul=halves shulk’s current HP to refill talent gauge by 52%. cool down: 43.8 seconds.

Monado Arts: Monado Arts can be used when the Talent Gauge is full. The Talent Gauge fills 20% with each successful auto attack. Offensive Monado arts also receive the 25 point boost in accuracy. Ether based art accuracy is only affected by level disparity between user and target(-2 to +2 Levels=100% hit rate).

Monado Enchant=allows the entire party to damage Mechon for 140 seconds, and grants auto attacks 500 bonus damage per hit. Only affects Mechon and no other type of robot, so this will only be useful if stage bosses enter the discussion. Drains Talent Gauge by 50%.
Monado Buster=hits multiple targets in a straight line 10 meters out with a damage multiplier of 700%, and inflicts double the normal damage to Mechon. Drains Talent Gauge by 100%.
Monado Shield=blocks(damage is reduced to 1 per hit and blocks status ailments) all Talent arts =< shield’s level and is good for 1 enemy Talent art or 15 Seconds. The attacker also loses balance after being blocked in cutscenes. Enemy talent arts can not be evaded and can include Multi-hit single-target(Arachno queen’s Arachno Crush I)and AOE(Reckless Godwin’s Crazy Dance III)Physical attacks, long-range linear AOE Ether attacks(Jade Face’s Linear Laser IV) and even Elemental self-destruct Ether attacks(Generic Nebulas‘ Eruptions). Drains Talent Gauge by 50%.
Monado Speed=Boosts a party member’s physical evasion by 190. Maximum evade rate of 90% against physical arts and 95% for auto attacks. Drains Talent Gauge by 75%.
Monado Purge=is a ranged(20 meters) ether art that removes the target’s auras and spikes and seals them for a duration of 14.5 Seconds. It also freeze the target’s movement in cutscenes. Damage multiplier of 353%. Drains Talent Gauge by 75%.
Monado Eater=is an ether attack that removes buffs from all targets in a frontal Arc extending out 15 meters and inflicts bleed for a duration of 20 seconds. Bleed damage occurs every 2 seconds equal to 20% of the Initial Blow. Damage Multiplier of 303%(909% if one includes the bleed damage). Drains Talent Gauge by 75%.
Monado Armor=reduces all non-Talent art damage by 75% to the entire party for 15 Seconds. Drains Talent Gauge by 100%.
Monado Cyclone=is an ether attack that has an AOE radius of 20 meters around Shulk with a damage multiplier of 408%. Break hit: inflicts Topple for 3 seconds. Drains Talent Gauge by 100%.

Source: GameFAQS Xenoblade Chronicles Arts guide

Shulk’s Useful Skills: Equip Intuition skill branch for agility up 15.
Medium Equipment=Allows medium armor to be equipped.
Healing Wisdom=Healing arts restore 15% more HP.
Resilient Warrior=Physical and Ether defense up by 5%.
Equipment Master=reduces weight of armor by 5.
Element of Surprise=damage of arts with bonus effects from behind up 100%(boosts Back Slash).
Fight the Future=grants 4 extra seconds before visions becomes reality.
Immunization=grants immunity to stat-reducing debuffs.
Ultimate Defense=boosts physical and ether defense by 10% for entire party.
Glorious Future=fully refills talent gauge after a vision.

Useful Skill Links: Restricted only by Skill Link slots, as one can easily have 999 Affinity coins by the end of the 6th Playthrough.

Reyn:
Square*2: Shear Determination=increases Physical defense by 15% when HP<50.
Empty slot.
Circle: Wall of Muscle=Increases Max HP by 10%.
Star*2: Rampage=increases double attack rate by 10%.
Channeled Pain=Refills Talent gauge by 5% when damage is taken.

Sharla:
Circle*2: Ether Expansion=Ether up 25.
Always Ready=Agility up 10.
Star*2: Middleweight Expert=Physical and Ether defense of Medium armor up 10%.
Ether Explosion=Ether up 75.
Square: Ether Unleashed=Ether up 15% when HP<50%.

Dunban:
Star*2: Solid Foundation=Grants Immunity to Blow-Down(Getting thrown back through the air. Examples include Dive Impact III and Titan Stamp).
Twin Swords=increases double attack chance by 5%.
Circle*2: Critical Drain=Restores 2% of Max HP with every Critical Hit(Criticals happen pretty often with the Monado III).
Body of Steel=Reduces Physical damage taken by 15%.
Square: Reckless Abandon=agility up 15% when HP<50%.

Melia:
Star*2: Ultimate Ether=Ether up 50.
Power of the Moon=Strength up 15% during nighttime.
Circle*2: High Speed=Agility up 15.
Amplified Healing=increases healing received from healing arts 15%.
Square: Rejection of Evil=Spike damage down 50%(arguably can reduce damage from invincibility stars and candies that damage by contact).

Riki:
Star*2: Heavy Equipment=Can wear heavy armor.
Empty slot.
Hexagon: Watch Out=Agility up 20% when HP<50%.
Circle*2:
Like Sun!=Strength up 10% during Daytime.
Love Sun!=Cooldown reduced 10% during Daytime.

Seven:
Circle*2: Physical Resiliance=Reduces physical damage 10%.
Strength of Will=Reduces Ether damage 10%.
Star*2: Critical Combo=Double Attacks 100% Critical(Combos well with Critical Drain).
Explosion of Energy=Using Talent Art increases tension 1 stage(Ensures High tension state with Monado Art spam).
Square: Desperate Defense=Block rate up 15% when HP<50%.

Source: GameFAQS Skills guide

Recommended Skill Branch Bonus: Intuition(+15 Agility)

Recommended Equipment:

Monado III: ATK 999-999 Def 25 Edef 25 Crit 75% Blok 15% 3 empty slots

Armor:
Head: Lancelot helm (empty slot): 114Def 125Edef 2Wt 1slot
Torso: Lancelot armor (empty slot): 175Def 194Edef 3Wt 1slot
Arms: Glory Gauntlets: 165Def 155Edef 1Wt (Haste(Increases auto attack frequency)45%)
Legs: Lancelot leggings (empty slot): 144Def 126Edef 3Wt 1slot
Feet: Lancelot boots (empty slot): 110Def 125Edef 2Wt 1slot
Total: 708Def 725Edef 11(6 with Equipment Master)Wt

Useful Ether Gems: gems are all perfect rank 6. Ether gems stack additively with skills(EX. Rejection of Evil(+50% spike defense)+Spike Defense VI(+75% spike defense)=100% spike defense).

Weapon Gems: can only be placed in the 3 weapon slots:
Agility Down VI: auto-attack reduces target’s agility by 25%, activates 30% of the time for 20 seconds(reducing the enemy’s physical hit and evade rates).
Slow VI: auto-attack inflicts Slow 25% of the time for 20 seconds(reduces the enemy’s offense and impairs their ability to escape).
Bind VI: auto-attack inflicts Bind(cannot move or turn around) 25% of the time for 20 seconds(stops enemy from escaping and allows Shulk to use his positional Arts to the fullest).
Weapon Power VI: adds 50% to activation rates of status debuff gems and Damage Heal(Ex. Bind goes from 25% activation rate to 75%).

Armor Gems: can only be placed in the 4 armor slots.
Spike VI: enemy suffers 250 spike damage for every blow landed on shulk(Discourages one hit wonders like Mario and Sonic from attacking recklessly).
Daze Resist VI: 100% resistance to Daze(Prevents moments of weakness).
Topple Resist VI: 100% resistance to Topple(Same as Daze Resist).
Debuff Resist VI: 100% resistance to all status ailments and DOTs(Poison, Blaze, Freeze, Bleed) except Daze, Topple, Blow-Down(Trivializes Ness‘s PSI Flash and Link’s Fire and Ice arrows).
Spike Defense VI: reduces spike damage by 75% for 1 gem and 100% for 2 gems(Reduces damage from contact based attacks like Mario‘s Invincibility star).
Damage Heal VI: 30% chance to recover 200Hp(3.9% of MAX HP) when hit by enemy attacks(Useful against foes with low physical power or who inflict great damage over multiple hits).
Recovery Up VI: 50% boost to all healing received(Improves survivability).
Quick Step VI: increases movement speed by 25%(Combined with Shulk’s high running speed, this will let him better pursue enemies and close distance fast with projectile spammers).

Equipment Gems: can be placed in weapon or armor slots
Agility Up VI: raises agility by 50(You can never have enough hit and evade).

Shulk’s stats Raw Adjusted

HP 5,135 5,648
Strength 405 405 (Str. Up 10%(Day) or 30%(Night))
Wp. Attack 999-999 999-999
Physical attack 1404-1404 1404-1404
Ether 417 567 (Ether up 15% when HP<50%)
Ether Attack 1416-1416 1566-1566
Agility 117 201 (Agility up 35% when HP<50%)
P. Def 25 924 (P. Def up 15% when HP<50%)
E. Def 25 945
Critical hit rate 80% 80% ((Very)High Tension 95%(110%))
Double attack rate 0% 15%
Block Rate 15% 15% (Block rate up 15% if HP<50%)
Light Heal 1463-1763 2587-3117 (if HP<50% than 2975-3585 restored)
P. Damage down 0% 25%
E. Damage down 0% 10%

Stat Descriptions:

HP=represents how much punishment Shulk can take before being KO.
Strength=Affects Auto-attack and physical Art damage.
Wp. Attack=Affects Physical and Ether Art damage.
Physical Attack=Strength+ Weapon Attack.
Ether=Affects Ether Art damage and is the sole stat that Light Heal runs off.
Ether Attack=Ether+ Weapon Attack.
Agility=Affects Physical Accuracy and Evasion(Arguably the most important stat in Xenoblade).
P. Def=Represents Shulk’s ability to mitigate physical damage.
E. Def=Represents Shulk’s ability to mitigate Ether damage.
Critical Hit Rate=percentage of attacks that are Critical hits. Critical hits do 25% extra damage.
Double Attack Rate=percentage of auto-attacks that score 2 hits instead of 1.
Block Rate=Chance to block with weapon. A successful Block cuts physical damage received in half, ends combo attacks prematurely and unbalances the attacker for about half a second.
Light Heal=Health recovered from Light Heal, heals about 50% of Max Hp with adjusted stats.
Physical and Ether damage down=reduces end damage by that amount. Stacks multiplicatively rather than additively with Monado Armor.
Raw: Stats from leveling and Monado III.
Adjusted: Raw stats plus stats from skills, Skill branch bonus, skill links, armor, and ether gems.

Ultimate weapons for Shulk and company:
Shulk: Monado III
Reyn: Atomic Driver (the Vangarre Driver that Shulk builds for him late game is 2nd in power to this)/Machina Guarder II
Sharla: Endless Rifle/Machina Cannon
Dunban: Wyvern Cutlass/Machina Blade
Melia: Sun Staff/Machina Staff II
Riki: Comet Biter/Machina Biter III
Seven: Conviction Blades

The Monado is a two-handed weapon so he can’t use a driver and the Monado at the same time. He could plant a driver in it’s deployed state (similar to Reyn’s Guard Shift art) in the ground and hide behind it though.

Shall we use the outdoor large scale comparisons to determine the range of the weapons?

Which Link gets access to the Medallions and elemental rods? Will there be a cooldown on the Medallions?

The only part of Shulk’s body not covered by a full set of M100 series (the best Mechon styled armor) armor is the face.

And concrete has never been in its path, so we can't assume that it could destroy it.

Bowser can do this. Mario cannot.

Concrete isn’t that durable, as it gets cracked by excessive heat and ice.

Bowser was jacked up on Kamek’s magical steroids (outside assistance) and still got beat by Mario.

I could give realistic estimates. Perhaps the weapons behave differently, but it's difficult to get a grasp of the range using an overhead map like that. I would agree with you that using a castle would probably be the best way to determine the area of one block, but yeah. Overhead range like that is not easy to determine. According to this site, the range of an actual ballista "was greater than 411.5 meters (450 yards) with 2.7 to 3.6 kilogram (6 to 8 lb.) shot. The larget ballistae could hurl 27.2 kilogram (60 lb.) weights up to 457.2 meters (500 yards)."

I suppose we could assume the same for the iron ballista. Bolting is another thing of its own. It looks like the user is casting lightning. I wouldn't know how to determine this. Ike's Ragnell waves look to be about 14 feet from that video. As for the arrow, I timed it to be 2.263 seconds on my first try. The distance between the archer and the woman looks to be about 50 yards, honestly. If I assume 100 meters, then that gives a speed of 44 m/s. I suppose from a show called Weapons That Made Britain had an arrow recorded traveling up to 52 m/s, so it's a reasonable speed, I suppose.

Probably several tons in the double digits. I don't know the exact measurement and I'm not sure what to make of battles like that where the enemy can crush you without any death occurring.

It's not really about thicker skin as it is mostly about the area the blast covers.

The reason I’ve brought this up is because some of those attacks have comparable range with one another:
Attacks that have 1-2 range include Magic tombs, thrown weapons (axes, javelins and knives), Ragnell, and The Sword of Seals. All of these counter attack Bowman at range with exception of Longbow (2-3) wielders striking from 3 range.
Ballista and Siege Tome users can strike at 3-10 range with the sole exception of the Iron Ballista (3-15).

The GBA Fire Emblem Ballista seem to match up with the description of Carroballista because of their large size and mobility.
The Tellius ones are more analogous to the Scorpiones due to them being smaller and fixed in position.
I don’t think we can use the record setting ballista because I doubt anyone in Fire Emblem has been sniped with a 60 lb. bolt.
Did the show use a longbow or a more standard sized bow (I’m not sure but the bow in the cutscene didn’t look longbow sized)?
Just to let you know the structure in the cutscene video wasn’t classified as a castle but as a fort.

Well it gives a better idea of one’s durability and calls into doubt that Donkey Kong can OHKO Shulk with a stomp.

The blast still needs to penetrate said skin before it can damage anything vital (think Godzilla but on a lesser scale).

Sonic, Mario, DK, etc. can survive in space without freezing, dieing due to lack of oxygen, etc. too. Keep in mind that Kirby games aren't exactly serious and are more like a cartoon for small kids (ignoring those abominations at the end of games that really feel out-of-place, especially 02), so, f*** science and even logic.

Freezing in space isn’t the issue, it’s overheating that is the problem due to there not being enough matter around you to cool down!

See 2:58. Also, 7:30 for chopping a volcano in half.

That is a pretty small volcano but the point still stands that Kirby should be able to cut through concrete.



Fire Emblem tier list:

: Slightly better stats and skills than .
: Aversa’s Night and Limit Breaker are too much for those beneath her.
: Skills and Yune’s blessing (effectively half of Limit Breaker) are too much for and but his weak resistance stat leaves him wide open to and .
: Nearly equal abilities to but the Sword of Seals is noticeably better than the Falchion.
: The Shield of Seals (effectively 1/5 of Limit Breaker) and Falchion’s sealing of melee attacks won’t save him from his mediocre abilities.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ Munomario777
By the way, I'm backed up by that entire wiki I linked to.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Marth
Marth defeated the dragons (country level). Marth is country level.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Little_Mac
Little Mac defeated Donkey Kong (moon level). Little Mac is moon level.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Ness
Ness defeated Giygas (universe level). Ness is universe level.

Just shows that it's common knowledge that if you defeat someone, you are more powerful (or equally powerful) than them.

 

[Munomario777]

A few characters, but I believe Kirby can dodge most of them with ease.

Kirby isn't actually moving that quickly; he's only eight inches tall. There's a lot of characters that could catch him.

Well, actually, as we determined earlier, psychic moves that affect the brain would work on Super Sonic. So Skill Swap could fail, but Trick would work well.

It's different when said move has been shown to be negated by Protect.

Kirby can stop the roulette on whatever he wants, so he could just stop it on Meta Knight. Meta Knight only slashes the enemies because that's what Kirby wants him to do. It's not like he's only able to slash enemies and nothing else.

Has Kirby been shown to do anything else with Meta Knight? If it's whatever Kirby wants him to do, then why not keep him for the entire game?

No, so he picks up Sonic when he's not in ball form.

Oh right, because it's much easier to pick up a hedgehog running at the speed of sound than a spinning spiky ball.

Can I see some proof?

@Dryn posted a video a while back.

I think chopping a volcano in half qualifies.

Chopping something in half =/= burrowing through it.

That's irrelevant, seeing as throwing strength is the same strength as lifting strength.

Okay, then. Would you like to prove that Kirby could lift up Bowser and the Clown Car using math and such?

Kirby wouldn't even use the attack if the opponent wasn't close up. Also, most of these guys can't attack while they're being hit.

If Kirby has no decent offensive options in Stone form, then he has to come out eventually.

It wouldn't OHKO him, but it would still prove a decent attack.

Of course.

Kirby wouldn't be burrowing, he'd be slicing through the concrete to create holes.

I can't imagine that creating a wide enough tunnel.

How would Bowser even attack if Kirby is under the Clown Car? And the Clown Car being thick isn't any excuse for Kirby not being able to teleport past it.

He wouldn't. The point of trapping Kirby is waiting out his invincibility, remember?

Kirby hasn't teleported through solid objects before. For all we know, he could just be going invisible (which matches up with the stealthy ninja theme as well as the delay, as if he was walking over to the destination).

I will now bring up Digger, that can drill through crystal.

This only appeared in Epic Yarn, where Kirby is under a yarn curse (which came from outside help).

That's more of a game mechanic.

Then why doesn't he?

If a Luma turns into a galaxy, however, it would just end up killing everything in the arena, including Rosalina and all the Lumas, so that would be pretty pointless.

Who ever said anything about a galaxy? A black hole or two should do just fine.

View attachment 48213
Half the stone is 29 Kirbies tall, so the whole stone is 58.

58 x 8 = 464
464 divided by 12 = 38

Dedede Stone is somewhere around 40 feet tall.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(Canon)
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Knuckles_the_Echidna
They are both described as city level when in base form (no Super forms).

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Mario_(Composite)
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Bowser
Mario in base form (no power-ups) and Bowser in large form are both the same tier.

@ Munomario777
By the way, I'm backed up by that entire wiki I linked to.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Marth
Marth defeated the dragons (country level). Marth is country level.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Little_Mac
Little Mac defeated Donkey Kong (moon level). Little Mac is moon level.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Ness
Ness defeated Giygas (universe level). Ness is universe level.

Just shows that it's common knowledge that if you defeat someone, you are more powerful (or equally powerful) than them.

How exactly is this website relevant, or a reliable source of information? Also, you're using ad populum.

Though there are several factors to interfere with the race to make it an inaccurate source of who can beat who. Not to mention, the speed of the vehicles is constantly changing.

These several factors are exactly my point. Strength is not the only factor in a battle. Oftentimes, the other factors are what help a weaker character beat a stronger one. Let me show this for all of the examples I originally listed:

• Sonic can beat Knuckles and vice-versa because they don't always do that well (the player character is always spamming the homing attack/lunch, while the CPU is always saying "oh no!").
• Mario can beat Bowser because of the environment, from the platforms and coins to the ? Blocks and kill-Bowser switches.
• A bad Air Ride can defeat a good one because of the rider's skill.
• Little Mac can defeat his stronger opponents because he uses his head. He spots openings, exploits taunts, dodges with precision timing, finds patterns, and always knows exactly when to deliver that triple-star uppercut.
• And Pichus can beat Pikachus because of the trainer's skill, items, strategy, and using the right moves at the right time.

In fact, I'll throw in your examples, because why not:

• Marth defeated the dragons because of his special dragon-sealing sword that happened to be perfect for that particular fight.
• See above for Little Mac.
• Ness beat Giygas with the help of his friends.

Though, seeing as Little Mac defeated those guys, that means he has superior strength, speed, reflexes, and endurance (as are the requirements for winning a boxing match). Those are the only things the opponents have for them, meaning Mac is more powerful than them.

See above.

• Stone
• Stone
• Stone
• Super Abilities
• Teleportation

• He has to come out sometime. Also, how much has it resisted?
• See above.
• See above.
• How is this relevant exactly?
• How does this help him react to Sonic's teleportation?

Then it's not impossible (in one universe only).

And soon in all others.

It wouldn't. Only his character would.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Concrete isn’t that durable, as it gets cracked by excessive heat and ice.

It's more than an average sword can go through.

Bowser was jacked up on Kamek’s magical steroids (outside assistance) and still got beat by Mario.

My point exactly. Mario was much weaker than Bowser in that fight, yet the former still defeated the latter.

 

[Crystanium]

@ Munomario777
By the way, I'm backed up by that entire wiki I linked to.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Marth
Marth defeated the dragons (country level). Marth is country level.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Little_Mac
Little Mac defeated Donkey Kong (moon level). Little Mac is moon level.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Ness
Ness defeated Giygas (universe level). Ness is universe level.

So, if Lex Luthor defeats Superman, does that mean Lex Luthor is planetary level or whatever level Superman is categorized under? Also, the Little Mac game for the Wii was created before Donkey Kong Country Returns, so that feat doesn't count.

Just shows that it's common knowledge that if you defeat someone, you are more powerful (or equally powerful) than them.

No it doesn't. It just means you had the means necessary to defeat said opponent.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

All characters are limited by their personality. If it's not in Ganondorf's mindset to become a beast, then he won't unless he's defeated. Ganondorf does have multiple beast forms, but the kinds that are most common look like this (ALttP, OoX, LA, ALBW, LoZ, AoL if it's game over, FSA). So we'd be working with that kind of beast form. That might be similar to an ingsmasher, or it might not. I'm not sure.

 

[Munomario777]

All characters are limited by their personality. If it's not in Ganondorf's mindset to become a beast, then he won't unless he's defeated. Ganondorf does have multiple beast forms, but the kinds that are most common look like this (ALttP, OoX, LA, ALBW, LoZ, AoL if it's game over, FSA). So we'd be working with that kind of beast form. That might be similar to an ingsmasher, or it might not. I'm not sure.

I don't see why Ganon's personality would prevent him from entering his beast form at the beginning of a match. That does seem to be the most common beast form, although I do wonder if we should allow him to turn into whatever beast form he wants.

Also, I completely agree with the other points you made in the post.

 

[Crystanium]

I don't see why Ganon's personality would prevent him from entering his beast form at the beginning of a match. That does seem to be the most common beast form, although I do wonder if we should allow him to turn into whatever beast form he wants.

Also, I completely agree with the other points you made in the post.

Because that's just how it is. I'm not sure how else to explain that. If you asked me why I preferred Dr. Pepper over Coke and Pepsi, I wouldn't have an answer. It'd just be, "I like it more than those two." It's a given.

If we've been working with commonality, then we should work with that incarnation.

 

[Munomario777]

Because that's just how it is. I'm not sure how else to explain that. If you asked me why I preferred Dr. Pepper over Coke and Pepsi, I wouldn't have an answer. It'd just be, "I like it more than those two." It's a given.

Do you have examples from the games backing this up?

If we've been working with commonality, then we should work with that incarnation.

I think we should combine the best attributes of all his beast forms, in accordance to the Magic Boomerang rule.

 

[Crystanium]

Do you have examples from the games backing this up?

I can only think of OoT and TP. Otherwise, I suppose he starts out as a beast in those common forms I've presented because that's what he's become, not what he chose to transform into. I just think it's hypocritical to allow Rosalina access to Lumas because she's with them in SSB4, but then wanting Ganondorf to be in his beast form, even though he's in a human form in SSBM, SSBB, and SSB4.

I think we should combine the best attributes of all his beast forms, in accordance to the Magic Boomerang rule.

I personally think the magic boomerang combination is a stupid rule. I don't know what you mean by "best attributes". Sounds a bit subjective if you ask me.

 

[Munomario777]

I can only think of OoT and TP. Otherwise, I suppose he starts out as a beast in those common forms I've presented because that's what he's become, not what he chose to transform into.

I don't see how his personality was keeping him from transforming in those games; more like the general unspoken rule of gaming that the final boss should be harder than those before it.

I just think it's hypocritical to allow Rosalina access to Lumas because she's with them in SSB4, but then wanting Ganondorf to be in his beast form, even though he's in a human form in SSBM, SSBB, and SSB4.

In that case, should we keep Samus to only the Varia Suit?

I personally think the magic boomerang combination is a stupid rule. I don't know what you mean by "best attributes". Sounds a bit subjective if you ask me.

I was against it too, but it was voted for, so I work with it. By best attributes, I mean the most advantageous traits from each incarnation. For example, for Beast Ganon, that means:

• No hole in his chest
• The largest size he's ever been
• Miscellaneous abilities from each incarnation
• Et cetera

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Said ship took a beating from Ghor.

Yes, and it flew away all wobbly at first and was damaged pretty good. If he had kept it up it would have been barely able or unable to fly pretty soon. Certain high tier characters could do the same.

We don't know that. If it's an issue, though, she'll just need to travel at a reasonable speed that can stop with enough time to be less than ten miles.

I don't know if it will either, just pointing out if you think about it it seems like a good possibility.

But it's not harmful because there's no injury.

It is, that's why they lose HP. You only lose HP when you get injured.
I'll give you another example: in Dragonball Z, Vegeta/Goku/etc could punch the crap out of Perfect Cell and you can't debate that it hurts him but you could never punch him enough to kill him because he has to be completely vaporized down to the last cell. That's how Ganondorf works, except it's not vaporization, it's specifically holy weapons.

It should be able to, but the game isn't programmed that way. The sonic boom is programmed around the battle against Dark Samus, however, and is balanced, according to Mark Pacini. If you want me to cite this again (as I did before), I'll be more than happy to. The reality of it would be that the darkburst would have a hard time hitting Dark Samus because of speed and the darkburst is noted for its slow speed.

Not really. It would probably be too slow for Ganondorf too unless she hit him with a light beam.

You're right, it has nothing to do with what you said because what you said about Skyrim being programmed a certain way is not what I'm addressing.

You addressed that guards (or humans in general) should die from a fire arrow to the head because that's what would happen to a normal human. I said the only reason they don't is because that's the way the game is programmed, just like how you said Dark Samus was programmed to not able to be absorbed by it. How is that not relevant to what you're addressing.

Unless used for telekinesis, I'm pretty sure Confusion does go to the brain, and cause it to be confused.

Except telekinsis doesn't work on invincible foes (i.e. ones using Protect), so while there may be a slight chance of Sonic being confused, he wouldn't able to be moved by telekinesis.

Well, actually, as we determined earlier, psychic moves that affect the brain would work on Super Sonic. So Skill Swap could fail, but Trick would work well.

I agree with his.

Kirby can stop the roulette on whatever he wants, so he could just stop it on Meta Knight. Meta Knight only slashes the enemies because that's what Kirby wants him to do. It's not like he's only able to slash enemies and nothing else.

It's more likely he's created temporarily and only does that one thing. He's more like an uncontrollable summon rather than being a helper.

As you requested @ ShadowLBlue !

Shulk’s capabilities:

Thanks

The Monado is a two-handed weapon so he can’t use a driver and the Monado at the same time. He could plant a driver in it’s deployed state (similar to Reyn’s Guard Shift art) in the ground and hide behind it though.

Well then I guess he could also switch to using one Dunban's swords and guard with the Driver as another option.

Shall we use the outdoor large scale comparisons to determine the range of the weapons?

I think so.

Which Link gets access to the Medallions and elemental rods? Will there be a cooldown on the Medallions?

Composite Link and composite Young Link (doesn't include any of Toon Link's games, or Adult Link's equipment in OoT) get access to Medallions. Medallions don't have cooldown, although they do have like a 2-3 second start-up.

The only part of Shulk’s body not covered by a full set of M100 series (the best Mechon styled armor) armor is the face.

No, I'm saying maybe the entire mechon armor has to be connected and a bonus affect is it reduces damage from all physical attacks to 1, not that the organic parts would receive regular damage and the mechon armor wouldn't.

The blast still needs to penetrate said skin before it can damage anything vital (think Godzilla but on a lesser scale).

Agreed.

Fire Emblem tier list:

: Slightly better stats and skills than .
: Aversa’s Night and Limit Breaker are too much for those beneath her.
: Skills and Yune’s blessing (effectively half of Limit Breaker) are too much for and but his weak resistance stat leaves him wide open to and .
: Nearly equal abilities to but the Sword of Seals is noticeably better than the Falchion.
: The Shield of Seals (effectively 1/5 of Limit Breaker) and Falchion’s sealing of melee attacks won’t save him from his mediocre abilities.

As pointed out by @ Kirby Dragons , Marth has the darksphere which negates all enemy attacks, so he should probably be #1 on his.

@ Munomario777
By the way, I'm backed up by that entire wiki I linked to.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Marth
Marth defeated the dragons (country level). Marth is country level.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Little_Mac
Little Mac defeated Donkey Kong (moon level). Little Mac is moon level.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Ness
Ness defeated Giygas (universe level). Ness is universe level.

Just shows that it's common knowledge that if you defeat someone, you are more powerful (or equally powerful) than them.

IN addition to what Dryn and muno said, Donkey Kong was handcuffed (not literally) in this fight. In an actual fight, he'd be able to grab, jump, kick, shoot at him with his explosive peanut guns and use his sound waves to slaughter little mac.

I personally think the magic boomerang combination is a stupid rule. I don't know what you mean by "best attributes". Sounds a bit subjective if you ask me.

Well that actually wouldn't apply here since it's a different transformation. It's implied that this Beast Ganon is different from his other transformations since:

• He's specifically called Beast Ganon (at least in Smash), and not just Ganon. To any non-casual Zelda fan, Using Ganon vs Ganondorf alone differentiates between his beast and human form.
• This Ganon only attacks by ramming, acting more like a wild beast (granted, one that uses warp holes)
• This Ganon is the only one to not use any weapons
• This one appears to be noticeably larger than other Ganons, (in relation to Ganon in other games and how Ganon is usually sized compared to Link.
  • Ganon is usually around 1.5-2 times Links size, while this one is probably close to 3 times his size at minimum. Probably closer to 4.5 times Link's size!
• Has much bigger tusks and longer hair
• Implied to have the Twilight powers (that's how he makes his portals).

So for this fight, he'd have access to both forms.

The "stupid" Magic Boomerang rule is more for weapons and items that commonly appear with exact same name and usually the same or similar appearance but have minor attribute inconsistencies in each game. For example, the Varia Suit's properties vary in some games (in Metroid 1/Zero Mission it gives immunity to acid, in Metriod 2 gave her a speed boost, in Fusion it can protect from sub-zero temperatures, and it's had 4 different damage reductions), so instead of forcing her to pick just one version of the Suit, she gets best of all of them.

 

[Munomario777]

@ ShadowLBlue

Psychic stuff and Super Sonic:
Trick is negated by Protect, so Super Sonic would likely block it as well.

Marty's darksphere:
If I'm not mistaken, it protects the user by means of possessing their mind (presumably to mess with muscle movement and such), which some characters would be immune to.

Beast Ganon:
So are you saying that he should have access to both the OoT final boss form and TP's Beast Ganon, or...?

 

[Crystanium]

I don't see how his personality was keeping him from transforming in those games; more like the general unspoken rule of gaming that the final boss should be harder than those before it.

Except, it's not an unspoken rule of gaming. Galamoth is more difficult than Dracula in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Galamoth also has 12,000 HP, whereas Dracula has 600 HP in his first form and 9,999 in his second. That totaled is 10,599 HP.

In that case, should we keep Samus to only the Varia Suit?

No, because it's a false equivalence. Ganondorf as a human is a playable character. Samus can choose different colors.

I was against it too, but it was voted for, so I work with it. By best attributes, I mean the most advantageous traits from each incarnation. For example, for Beast Ganon, that means:

• No hole in his chest
• The largest size he's ever been
• Miscellaneous abilities from each incarnation
• Et cetera

Anything to make him win against Samus, it looks like. I wouldn't bother with the hole in his chest because it's not a common feature. His largest size isn't a common attribute. He already has multiple abilities to choose from, considering he's a composite form like everyone else. Otherwise, if we're going to have the TP beast form, we should have Ganondorf's weak spot.

Yes, and it flew away all wobbly at first and was damaged pretty good. If he had kept it up it would have been barely able or unable to fly pretty soon. Certain high tier characters could do the same.

Obviously that's what happened. I don't know of any character on the roster who would actually be able to damage the gunship to that extent, unless you want to start demonstrating striking strength from each character.

It is, that's why they lose HP. You only lose HP when you get injured.
I'll give you another example: in Dragonball Z, Vegeta/Goku/etc could punch the crap out of Perfect Cell and you can't debate that it hurts him but you could never punch him enough to kill him because he has to be completely vaporized down to the last cell. That's how Ganondorf works, except it's not vaporization, it's specifically holy weapons.

Dragon Ball Z is a manga/anime, not a video game. The purpose of HP for these characters who cannot die unless by a specific way is meaningless.

Not really. It would probably be too slow for Ganondorf too unless she hit him with a light beam.

Ganondorf has never been one for quickness. Regardless, when the light beam is charged, it fires five blasts capable of homing in on the target. It sets them on fire. I've yet to see Ganondorf survive 5,000 K, but yeah. I've been saying a light beam and darkburst or sonic boom should finish him off.

You addressed that guards (or humans in general) should die from a fire arrow to the head because that's what would happen to a normal human. I said the only reason they don't is because that's the way the game is programmed, just like how you said Dark Samus was programmed to not able to be absorbed by it. How is that not relevant to what you're addressing.

It's not relevant in that Link and Ganondorf are humans, which I presented three possibilities. I don't care about the Skyrim example because as I said before, I have no counter-argument to what you presented. So you only addressed the Skyrim example, but not the fact that Link and Ganondorf are regarded as humans.

Well that actually wouldn't apply here since it's a different transformation. It's implied that this Beast Ganon is different from his other transformations since:

• He's specifically called Beast Ganon (at least in Smash), and not just Ganon. To any non-casual Zelda fan, Using Ganon vs Ganondorf alone differentiates between his beast and human form.
• This Ganon only attacks by ramming, acting more like a wild beast (granted, one that uses warp holes)
• This Ganon is the only one to not use any weapons
• This one appears to be noticeably larger than other Ganons, (in relation to Ganon in other games and how Ganon is usually sized compared to Link.
  • Ganon is usually around 1.5-2 times Links size, while this one is probably close to 3 times his size at minimum. Probably closer to 4.5 times Link's size!
• Has much bigger tusks and longer hair
• Implied to have the Twilight powers (that's how he makes his portals).

So for this fight, he'd have access to both forms.

It's fine if he has access to both, but I'm still working with his human form and his common beasts forms, not the only one from TP.

The "stupid" Magic Boomerang rule is more for weapons and items that commonly appear with exact same name and usually the same or similar appearance but have minor attribute inconsistencies in each game. For example, the Varia Suit's properties vary in some games (in Metroid 1/Zero Mission it gives immunity to acid, in Metriod 2 gave her a speed boost, in Fusion it can protect from sub-zero temperatures, and it's had 4 different damage reductions), so instead of forcing her to pick just one version of the Suit, she gets best of all of them.

But the magic boomerang is different from other boomerangs. They never stacked. Samus' suits can stack, so different varia suits would be able to stack. I've only been using one varia suit, one gravity suit, and one Phazon suit, though. Not multiple suits.

 

[Munomario777]

Except, it's not an unspoken rule of gaming. Galamoth is more difficult than Dracula in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Galamoth also has 12,000 HP, whereas Dracula has 600 HP in his first form and 9,999 in his second. That totaled is 10,599 HP.

It's a common convention, though. Rules are meant to be broken.

No, because it's a false equivalence. Ganondorf as a human is a playable character. Samus can choose different colors.

She doesn't have the Phazon Suit, however. Should we deny her that?

Anything to make him win against Samus, it looks like. I wouldn't bother with the hole in his chest because it's not a common feature. His largest size isn't a common attribute. He already has multiple abilities to choose from, considering he's a composite form like everyone else. Otherwise, if we're going to have the TP beast form, we should have Ganondorf's weak spot.

I think we should at least let him enter his form from the Ocarina of Time final boss.

Obviously that's what happened. I don't know of any character on the roster who would actually be able to damage the gunship to that extent, unless you want to start demonstrating striking strength from each character.

Here's some characters that could do that off of the top of my head:
/ - They can destroy spaceships with Arwings/Landmasters if I'm not mistaken.
- See the final leg of the final boss from New Super Mario Bros. Wii.
- Great Sacred Treasure. That is all.
- Mega Laser. That is all.
- Crashing into the gunship with the Blue Falcon at high speeds.
- See the Sonic Unleashed opening.
- Beast Ganon. Also, he flattened a castle.
- He punched the moon out of its orbit.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Kirby isn't actually moving that quickly; he's only eight inches tall. There's a lot of characters that could catch him.

A ball is less than eight inches tall, yet when you roll it at a high speed, it's hard to catch by regularly sized humans.

It's different when said move has been shown to be negated by Protect.

All of his moves are negated by Protect, so it's not.

Has Kirby been shown to do anything else with Meta Knight? If it's whatever Kirby wants him to do, then why not keep him for the entire game?

Meta Knight was bound to another dimension at the time

Oh right, because it's much easier to pick up a hedgehog running at the speed of sound than a spinning spiky ball.

Sonic wouldn't be running the whole fight. When he stops, Kirby grabs him and throws him. Not to mention, Jet Kirby travels around the speed of sound, so catching Sonic wouldn't be any problem, especially if Kirby uses Jet Blow to suck him forward.

@Dryn posted a video a while back.

I'll go check that out.

Chopping something in half =/= burrowing through it.

See below.

Okay, then. Would you like to prove that Kirby could lift up Bowser and the Clown Car using math and such?

19:10. Do Bowser + Clown Car weigh more than 3.5 tons?

If Kirby has no decent offensive options in Stone form, then he has to come out eventually.

Or, he could await the opponent's death through aging. The Animal Statues also enable Kirby to move while still using invincibility. ChuChu has a high jump, so Kirby could turn into her and crash into his enemies. Not to mention, Kirby can just create a Helper to do the fighting while he's in Stone form.

I can't imagine that creating a wide enough tunnel.

I could, seeing Ultra Sword's chopping range.

He wouldn't. The point of trapping Kirby is waiting out his invincibility, remember?

Kirby could simply get out before then.

Kirby hasn't teleported through solid objects before. For all we know, he could just be going invisible (which matches up with the stealthy ninja theme as well as the delay, as if he was walking over to the destination).

No, he was teleporting. Watch the next few seconds, Benikage confirms this. It's not like solid objects would stop teleportation.

This only appeared in Epic Yarn, where Kirby is under a yarn curse (which came from outside help).

Then he teleports, lifts up the car, or chops through the ground.

Then why doesn't he?

.....Because it's a game mechanic.

Who ever said anything about a galaxy? A black hole or two should do just fine.

Kirby fought inside a black hole, so it wouldn't kill him.

How exactly is this website relevant, or a reliable source of information? Also, you're using ad populum.

I'm referring to a rule everyone follows, not an opinion everyone believes. The website is reliable seeing as it actually takes feats the character has done, and translates them into an accurate power level.

These several factors are exactly my point. Strength is not the only factor in a battle. Oftentimes, the other factors are what help a weaker character beat a stronger one. Let me show this for all of the examples I originally listed:
Sonic can beat Knuckles and vice-versa because they don't always do that well (the player character is always spamming the homing attack/lunch, while the CPU is always saying "oh no!").
Mario can beat Bowser because of the environment, from the platforms and coins to the ? Blocks and kill-Bowser switches.
A bad Air Ride can defeat a good one because of the rider's skill.
Little Mac can defeat his stronger opponents because he uses his head. He spots openings, exploits taunts, dodges with precision timing, finds patterns, and always knows exactly when to deliver that triple-star uppercut.
And Pichus can beat Pikachus because of the trainer's skill, items, strategy, and using the right moves at the right time.

I can agree with you on most of this, the things that lead to weaker characters beating the stronger ones are outside factors that come into play. However, the things you mentioned for Little Mac aren't outside factors, they are things that Little Mac does.

But yeah, in a scenario where there's nothing to interrupt the battle, the more potent character will beat the less potent one. Nightmare vs Kirby and Dedede vs Sectonia are examples of this.

• He has to come out sometime. Also, how much has it resisted?

He doesn't have to come out if there's a Helper fighting for him, or if he goes ChuChu and jumps at his opponent.

• How is this relevant exactly?

They're capable of freezing time.

• How does this help him react to Sonic's teleportation?

It helps him dodge the teleportation (plus he's intangible while teleporting, so Sonic can't attack).

And soon in all others.

Only with outside factors involved.

So, if Lex Luthor defeats Superman, does that mean Lex Luthor is planetary level or whatever level Superman is categorized under? Also, the Little Mac game for the Wii was created before Donkey Kong Country Returns, so that feat doesn't count.

It would, but does Lex Luthor even ever defeat Superman?

It's not like Donkey Kong could gain moon level strength in just one year, meaning he wasn't that far from it.

No it doesn't. It just means you had the means necessary to defeat said opponent.

Weakness exploition is a different matter. If Lex beats Superman using Kryptonite, that isn't enough to claim he's planetary, because Superman was on a lower level in the fight.

Except telekinsis doesn't work on invincible foes (i.e. ones using Protect), so while there may be a slight chance of Sonic being confused, he wouldn't able to be moved by telekinesis.

That's what I was saying. Telekinesis wouldn't work, but confusion would (provided the 10% chance actually works).

It's more likely he's created temporarily and only does that one thing. He's more like an uncontrollable summon rather than being a helper.

I don't see why Meta Knight would only be able to do that thing. Also, the reason he's temporary could be explained by the fact that he was bound to another dimension, or that he just left because his job was done.

IN addition to what Dryn and muno said, Donkey Kong was handcuffed (not literally) in this fight. In an actual fight, he'd be able to grab, jump, kick, shoot at him with his explosive peanut guns and use his sound waves to slaughter little mac.

In an actual fight, DK would win. But in a boxing match, which measures strength, Mac turned out superior, so his strength would likely be on that level.

@ ShadowLBlue
Psychic stuff and Super Sonic:
Trick is negated by Protect, so Super Sonic would likely block it as well.

Protect/Super Sonic don't block the same things. Sound can still reach Super Sonic, yet not a Pokemon using Protect (demonstrated because it blocks Sonic Boom). Mental attacks have already been determined to bypass Super Sonic's invincibility.

Marty's darksphere:
If I'm not mistaken, it protects the user by means of possessing their mind (presumably to mess with muscle movement and such), which some characters would be immune to.

How would Marth's opponent be immune to the Darksphere possessing Marth's mind?

 

[Munomario777]

A ball is less than eight inches tall, yet when you roll it at a high speed, it's hard to catch by regularly sized humans.

And this eight inch wheel doesn't seem to be moving at such high speeds in-game.

All of his moves are negated by Protect, so it's not.

The whole "Super Sonic is affected by mind control attacks" deal was meant for attacks that haven't been shown to be blocked (i.e. the mind control and all).

Meta Knight was bound to another dimension at the time

I'm sorry?

Sonic wouldn't be running the whole fight. When he stops, Kirby grabs him and throws him. Not to mention, Jet Kirby travels around the speed of sound, so catching Sonic wouldn't be any problem, especially if Kirby uses Jet Blow to suck him forward.

Why wouldn't Sonic be running? Jet moves at the speed of sound. Sonic moves at about 5.5 times the speed of sound (the low end of "hypersonic").

19:10. Do Bowser + Clown Car weigh more than 3.5 tons?

The average normal car nowadays weighs about two tons, so I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser plus a clown car weighed that much.

Or, he could await the opponent's death through aging.

Ha, that's funny.

The Animal Statues also enable Kirby to move while still using invincibility. ChuChu has a high jump, so Kirby could turn into her and crash into his enemies.

The statues are chosen randomly, so if Kirby gets the wrong one, he would have to exit Stone form, leaving him vulnerable (not to mention that these could be easily dodged).

Not to mention, Kirby can just create a Helper to do the fighting while he's in Stone form.

And the Helper could then be defeated.

I could, seeing Ultra Sword's chopping range.

That wouldn't make a wider tunnel.

Kirby could simply get out before then.

I can't imagine it would last long enough for Kirby to use the Ultra Sword (which takes a few seconds each swing) to dig out, even if it would be wide enough.

No, he was teleporting. Watch the next few seconds, Benikage confirms this. It's not like solid objects would stop teleportation.

Someone saying "He's teleporting!" isn't confirmation.

Then he teleports, lifts up the car, or chops through the ground.

See above.

.....Because it's a game mechanic.

Has Kirby been shown to turn around while inhaling? If not, then I don't see why he should here.

Kirby fought inside a black hole, so it wouldn't kill him.

Except it's not an actual black hole, for reasons mentioned in the past.

I'm referring to a rule everyone follows, not an opinion everyone believes. The website is reliable seeing as it actually takes feats the character has done, and translates them into an accurate power level.

It's the opinion of the people on that site to use the rule.

I can agree with you on most of this, the things that lead to weaker characters beating the stronger ones are outside factors that come into play. However, the things you mentioned for Little Mac aren't outside factors, they are things that Little Mac does.

My point was factors besides strength, whether that be within the characters (the Little Mac example) or outside of the characters (the Bowser VS Mario example).

But yeah, in a scenario where there's nothing to interrupt the battle, the more potent character will beat the less potent one. Nightmare vs Kirby and Dedede vs Sectonia are examples of this.

Kirby defeated Nightmare because he had the Star Rod. In both of these fights, the bosses in question don't show any sort of cosmic/planetary/whatever power.

He doesn't have to come out if there's a Helper fighting for him, or if he goes ChuChu and jumps at his opponent.

See above.

They're capable of freezing time.

Which is a game mechanic.

It helps him dodge the teleportation (plus he's intangible while teleporting, so Sonic can't attack).

Is his reaction time sufficient?

Only with outside factors involved.

Or inside ones unrelated to strength.

It would, but does Lex Luthor even ever defeat Superman?

If I'm not mistaken, he almost did using Kryptonite.

In an actual fight, DK would win. But in a boxing match, which measures strength, Mac turned out superior, so his strength would likely be on that level.

Boxing has certain rules (i.e. don't kill the opponent), and these seem to be restricting DK here.

Protect/Super Sonic don't block the same things. Sound can still reach Super Sonic, yet not a Pokemon using Protect (demonstrated because it blocks Sonic Boom). Mental attacks have already been determined to bypass Super Sonic's invincibility.

When has a sonic attack been shown to damage Super Sonic? As for mental attacks, see above.

How would Marth's opponent be immune to the Darksphere possessing Marth's mind?

The darksphere possesses the attacker's mind.

 

[Crystanium]

It's a common convention, though. Rules are meant to be broken.

You're the only one making it a rule, so . . .

She doesn't have the Phazon Suit, however. Should we deny her that?

If we let her be Dark Samus, but that's probably homage to the fact that Dark Samus takes her form from the Phazon suit itself.

I think we should at least let him enter his form from the Ocarina of Time final boss.

Whatever helps you feel better about Ganondorf winning.

/ - They can destroy spaceships with Arwings/Landmasters if I'm not mistaken.

And the gunship "is outfitted with enough firepower to survive firefights against bigger and more numerous foes". - Official Metroid Prime Web site

- See the final leg of the final boss from New Super Mario Bros. Wii.

Final leg?

- Great Sacred Treasure. That is all.

It's not fast enough.

- Mega Laser. That is all.

That doesn't have any serious damage output, so . . .

- Crashing into the gunship with the Blue Falcon at high speeds.

It's restricted to land.

- See the Sonic Unleashed opening.

The Egg Fleet is weak.

- Beast Ganon. Also, he flattened a castle.

Too slow and restricted to land.

- He punched the moon out of its orbit.

Too slow and restricted to land.

It would, but does Lex Luthor even ever defeat Superman?

Story arcs probably don't allow him, but he has the means necessary. Ignoring plot, Lex Luthor could defeat Superman. Again, it doesn't mean Lex Luthor is on par or greater than Superman.

It's not like Donkey Kong could gain moon level strength in just one year, meaning he wasn't that far from it.

This moon level strength was non-existent. Stop trying to commit an anachronism.

Weakness exploition is a different matter. If Lex beats Superman using Kryptonite, that isn't enough to claim he's planetary, because Superman was on a lower level in the fight.

Then it's not enough to claim that Marth is country level, that Little Mac moon level, and that Ness is universal level. That site honestly is misinformed. It's just like the Outskirts Battledome. Rubbish.

In an actual fight, DK would win. But in a boxing match, which measures strength, Mac turned out superior, so his strength would likely be on that level.

It wouldn't be. If I knocked out a professional boxer, it wouldn't mean my striking strength was stronger than his. It doesn't mean that I can take blows from him, either.

 

[Munomario777]

You're the only one making it a rule, so . . .

By "rule", I mean common convention. My apologies if that didn't come through right.

If we let her be Dark Samus, but that's probably homage to the fact that Dark Samus takes her form from the Phazon suit itself.

Hm, interesting.

And the gunship "is outfitted with enough firepower to survive firefights against bigger and more numerous foes". - Official Metroid Prime Web site

And what about the armor?

Final leg?

As in, the final section, where Bowser grows gigantic and destroys a majority of the castle's interior.

It's not fast enough.

It has a giant laser, which destroys half of the battle arena and instantly KOs Pit.

That doesn't have any serious damage output, so . . .

It deals heavy damage to enemies, although I'm not sure what it's done to vehicles and such.

It's restricted to land.

Wouldn't Samus's gunship be on land at the beginning of the fight?

The Egg Fleet is weak.

As proven by?

Too slow and restricted to land.

Ganon can fly, and can be rather quick in his movements.

Too slow and restricted to land.

Where the gunship would be at the beginning of the match.

Story arcs probably don't allow him, but he has the means necessary. Ignoring plot, Lex Luthor could defeat Superman. Again, it doesn't mean Lex Luthor is on par or greater than Superman.

This moon level strength was non-existent. Stop trying to commit an anachronism.

Then it's not enough to claim that Marth is country level, that Little Mac moon level, and that Ness is universal level. That site honestly is misinformed. It's just like the Outskirts Battledome. Rubbish.

It wouldn't be. If I knocked out a professional boxer, it wouldn't mean my striking strength was stronger than his. It doesn't mean that I can take blows from him, either.

Mmmhmm.

 

[Nerdicon]

Seems like everyone underestimates nowadays. Real shame.
The largest enemy crash can defeat in Kirby Triple Deluxe seems to be Mr. Frosty, Supernova takes him in one hit. More impressive though are metallic enemies such as Metaluns who die in one hit to the normal Crash. Kirby bosses do, believe it or not, have some otherworldly durability (when was the last time you saw a metal covered knight survive prolonged exposure to fire or lightning?)
Metaluns give Kirby the metal ability which can walk unharmed on boiling magma. Metal Kirby and the Metaluns seems to be made of the same material so we can find the melting temperature of the metal and compare it to other metals to find a match.
Magma ranges from 700-1300 C, though there are some outliers here and there. Given that this magma is bright orange and yellow, it would be on the high end of heat so let's just roll with 1300 C.
Whatever metal Kirby is made out of, it doesn't melt at 1300 degrees C leaving us with an incredibly broad selection of metals. We can limit this again by color, which throws some brighter metals (Titanium namely) out the window, and it doesn't seem to be magnetic (and there goes iron).
However there are still several metals to choose from, and I don't have a great way of narrowing it down, so I'll look at how Metal enemies form. Given their angular design, taken in with all the other findings, I feel that these metals most closely resemble Iridium
Being the second densest element in existence, it explains Metal Kirby's incredible weight. It's hardness also explains Metal Kirby's resistance to most enemies. Now to revise Crash's power in based on this new information (because 564 kJ·mol^-1 is a lot more than 40.65 kJ•mol^-1).
Before I get too far into this I want to clear up two mistakes I made
For one, 2,260 J/g is actually 2,260 kJ kg making my first calculation radically different than it actually is.
Two, the standard unit for heat of vaporization is kJ mol, which I learned the hard way
Well, a sphere Kirby's size made of iridium would weigh 99.11 kilograms or 99,110 grams.
Now to make our calculation correct I need to convert kJ per mole to kJ per kg. This'll get a little complicated.
There are 5.20245347706 moles in one gram of iridium, and it takes 564 kJ to vaporize one mole of iridium. By multiplying 564 kJ by 5.20245347706 gives us 2934.18376 kJ per kg.
99.11 kg • 2,934.18376 kJ per kg results in 290,806,952 J to vaporize a Kirby sized object made of Iridium. Keep in mind that Metaluns are larger than Kirby. That's about 291 megajoules or 291 sticks of dynamite! No one is just going to shrug that off, heck most of the cast would be reduced to a pile of ashes!
Again, keep in mind that metaluns are larger than this and that this is the basic level of crash.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

[quote="Munomario777, post: 19034957, member: 277104"]And this eight inch wheel doesn't seem to be moving at such high speeds in-game.[/quote]

8:30
[quote]
The whole "Super Sonic is affected by mind control attacks" deal was meant for attacks that haven't been shown to be blocked (i.e. the mind control and all).[/quote]
That's not what was decided.

I'm sorry?

Meta Knight was trapped in the Mirror Dimension, which could explain why he's only temporary.

Why wouldn't Sonic be running? Jet moves at the speed of sound. Sonic moves at about 5.5 times the speed of sound (the low end of "hypersonic").

Sonic can't be running the whole time, or he can't attack. Or if he faces Kirby while he's running to attack, he'd be getting closer, and Kirby could get in his attack.

The average normal car nowadays weighs about two tons, so I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser plus a clown car weighed that much.

Small clown car < actual car. Plus, unless Bowser weighs 1.5 tons, it's not like they'd weigh that much.

Ha, that's funny.

Good, because I meant it jokingly.

The statues are chosen randomly, so if Kirby gets the wrong one, he would have to exit Stone form, leaving him vulnerable (not to mention that these could be easily dodged).

Though, nearly all of them can fly or jump. The Helper could also send the opponent under Kirby so they can't dodge.

And the Helper could then be defeated.

Unless Kirby blocked all of the opponents' attacks.

That wouldn't make a wider tunnel.

Why not?

I can't imagine it would last long enough for Kirby to use the Ultra Sword (which takes a few seconds each swing) to dig out, even if it would be wide enough.

I imagine it taking around eight seconds, leaving another seven for Kirby to touch and defeat Bowser.

Someone saying "He's teleporting!" isn't confirmation.

So it being both said and shown isn't enough for it to be confirmed? Then for all we know, Mario with a Fire Flower could be throwing lava balls, even though they were shown and said to be fireballs.

Has Kirby been shown to turn around while inhaling? If not, then I don't see why he should here.

He hasn't done it because it's a game mechanic that he can't. I mean, how would sucking up air prevent one from moving their feet?

Except it's not an actual black hole, for reasons mentioned in the past.

It is a real black hole. Before Dark Nebula starts changing the color of things, the stage is black, just like a real black hole. As for why we can see Kirby, and why Kirby can see, this would just be something the creators did to make the game actually playable.

It's the opinion of the people on that site to use the rule.

And it's the opinion of the government to use their laws, yet it's not called ad populum if people don't agree with them.

My point was factors besides strength, whether that be within the characters (the Little Mac example) or outside of the characters (the Bowser VS Mario example).

That's what I was talking about too. However, if the factor is inside the character, that just goes toward their actual power.

Kirby defeated Nightmare because he had the Star Rod. In both of these fights, the bosses in question don't show any sort of cosmic/planetary/whatever power.

Pretty much all their attacks would be cosmic, the reason why they aren't shown so is because they are aimed at Kirby. The bosses have justified power that would apply to all their attacks.

Which is a game mechanic.

Though, if we are including the mechanic of Kirby inhaling without being able to move around...

The Invisibility Stone would counter time freezing, Sonic can't attack if he doesn't know where to attack (or if Kirby is intangible). Since time is frozen, there wouldn't be a time limit.

Is his reaction time sufficient?

He started his teleport right before his opponent stabbed him. How fast is Sonic's teleport?

Or inside ones unrelated to strength.

Why would those not go into a character's power?

If I'm not mistaken, he almost did using Kryptonite.

Kryptonite weakened Superman's power level, so Lex couldn't receive an accurate power ranking from that.

Boxing has certain rules (i.e. don't kill the opponent), and these seem to be restricting DK here.

That was my point. Donkey Kong would win against Mac in a fight, but the boxing match shows Mac's superiority in strength.

When has a sonic attack been shown to damage Super Sonic? As for mental attacks, see above.

Not actually a sound attack, just sound in general. Protect protects the user from sound, shown when against Sonic Boom/Hyper Voice.

The darksphere possesses the attacker's mind.[/quote]
Does it really? If so, then yeah, a few are immune to it.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Well then I guess he could also switch to using one Dunban's swords and guard with the Driver as another option.

I think so.

Composite Link and composite Young Link (doesn't include any of Toon Link's games, or Adult Link's equipment in OoT) get access to Medallions. Medallions don't have cooldown, although they do have like a 2-3 second start-up.

No, I'm saying maybe the entire mechon armor has to be connected and a bonus affect is it reduces damage from all physical attacks to 1, not that the organic parts would receive regular damage and the mechon armor wouldn't.

As pointed out by @ Kirby Dragons , Marth has the darksphere which negates all enemy attacks, so he should probably be #1 on his.

Putting the Monado in his inventory would rob him of his Monado Arts during that period of time and it wouldn’t be practical against people like Palutena and Ganondorf. He would still get his visions though.

I’d hate to be up against Robin and Lucina when they start their long-range Mire bombardment from Pegasus back.

That could be painful.

We should probably get second opinions on that.
The only known ways to pierce Mechon armor with physical attacks are:
Use Monado Enchant to spread special ether particles onto weapons that enable them to bite through their armor.
Topple them to presumably hit at weak points on their frames or use superior leverage to inflict damage Ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YE...list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP#t=211 at 3:31-3:44 (@Dryn can you give me your input on how those soldiers destroyed that Mechon?).
Use anti-Mechon weaponry forged from Mechon armor (like cuts like).

Wouldn’t the Lightsphere being nearby inside the Shield of Seals negate the Darksphere’s effect? The completed Shield of Seals only seems to keep the Starsphere’s effect and the other four spheres (including the Darksphere) no longer give their bonuses.

However there are still several metals to choose from, and I don't have a great way of narrowing it down, so I'll look at how Metal enemies form. Given their angular design, taken in with all the other findings, I feel that these metals most closely resemble Iridium Being the second densest element in existence, it explains Metal Kirby's incredible weight. It's hardness also explains Metal Kirby's resistance to most enemies.

Iridium!? Are you saying Metaluns are made from Meteors (the most common source of Iridium)?


Do Pokemon other than ones raised by Pokemon Trainer and Mewtwo get TM or HM moves?
How are we going to handle Greninja’s Protean ability http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Protean_(Ability)?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Story arcs probably don't allow him, but he has the means necessary. Ignoring plot, Lex Luthor could defeat Superman. Again, it doesn't mean Lex Luthor is on par or greater than Superman.

How would Lex defeat Superman then? If it was using Kryptonite or another form of weakness exploition, it just lowers Superman's power level, and that's why Lex wouldn't be considered greater than Superman.

This moon level strength was non-existent. Stop trying to commit an anachronism.

I will bring up these then.

Then it's not enough to claim that Marth is country level, that Little Mac moon level, and that Ness is universal level. That site honestly is misinformed. It's just like the Outskirts Battledome. Rubbish.

I actually see it as a reliable source.

It wouldn't be. If I knocked out a professional boxer, it wouldn't mean my striking strength was stronger than his. It doesn't mean that I can take blows from him, either.

Except Little Mac did take blows from Donkey Kong. Mac's and Kong's blows were compared because they were used simultaneously, and Mac's blows were stronger, proved by the fact that he won the match.

Wouldn’t the Lightsphere being nearby inside the Shield of Seals negate the Darksphere’s effect? The completed Shield of Seals only seems to keep the Starsphere’s effect and the other four spheres (including the Darksphere) no longer give their bonuses.

Marth wouldn't be bringing the Lightsphere with him, so no.

Do Pokemon other than ones raised by Pokemon Trainer and Mewtwo get TM or HM moves?

Yep.

 

[Nerdicon]

Iridium!? Are you saying Metaluns are made from Meteors (the most common source of Iridium)?

Yep. Keep in mind that Pop-Star is not Earth, these rare materials could be rare or more common.

 

[Munomario777]

Seems like everyone underestimates nowadays. Real shame.
The largest enemy crash can defeat in Kirby Triple Deluxe seems to be Mr. Frosty, Supernova takes him in one hit. More impressive though are metallic enemies such as Metaluns who die in one hit to the normal Crash. Kirby bosses do, believe it or not, have some otherworldly durability (when was the last time you saw a metal covered knight survive prolonged exposure to fire or lightning?)
Metaluns give Kirby the metal ability which can walk unharmed on boiling magma. Metal Kirby and the Metaluns seems to be made of the same material so we can find the melting temperature of the metal and compare it to other metals to find a match.
Magma ranges from 700-1300 C, though there are some outliers here and there. Given that this magma is bright orange and yellow, it would be on the high end of heat so let's just roll with 1300 C.
Whatever metal Kirby is made out of, it doesn't melt at 1300 degrees C leaving us with an incredibly broad selection of metals. We can limit this again by color, which throws some brighter metals (Titanium namely) out the window, and it doesn't seem to be magnetic (and there goes iron).
However there are still several metals to choose from, and I don't have a great way of narrowing it down, so I'll look at how Metal enemies form. Given their angular design, taken in with all the other findings, I feel that these metals most closely resemble Iridium
Being the second densest element in existence, it explains Metal Kirby's incredible weight. It's hardness also explains Metal Kirby's resistance to most enemies. Now to revise Crash's power in based on this new information (because 564 kJ·mol^-1 is a lot more than 40.65 kJ•mol^-1).
Before I get too far into this I want to clear up two mistakes I made
For one, 2,260 J/g is actually 2,260 kJ kg making my first calculation radically different than it actually is.
Two, the standard unit for heat of vaporization is kJ mol, which I learned the hard way
Well, a sphere Kirby's size made of iridium would weigh 99.11 kilograms or 99,110 grams.
Now to make our calculation correct I need to convert kJ per mole to kJ per kg. This'll get a little complicated.
There are 5.20245347706 moles in one gram of iridium, and it takes 564 kJ to vaporize one mole of iridium. By multiplying 564 kJ by 5.20245347706 gives us 2934.18376 kJ per kg.
99.11 kg • 2,934.18376 kJ per kg results in 290,806,952 J to vaporize a Kirby sized object made of Iridium. Keep in mind that Metaluns are larger than Kirby. That's about 291 megajoules or 291 sticks of dynamite! No one is just going to shrug that off, heck most of the cast would be reduced to a pile of ashes!
Again, keep in mind that metaluns are larger than this and that this is the basic level of crash.

A) Iron isn't always magnetic, so it shouldn't be ruled out.
B) Any enemy could be that shape.
C) Bosses/minibosses survive Crash, so it likely wouldn't work on most of the cast.
I do like the effort you put into this, though!

8:30

Time for a bit of calculation work. So first off, let's take the first scene we see Wheel Kirby zooming by. Now let's calculate how large that is. Using Kirby as a reference point, we get this:

We get about ten Kirbys in length. Since Kirby is eight inches tall, this is eighty inches. He moves eighty inches in about a second, so we get, of course, eighty inches per second. Converting this to miles per hour, we get about 4.5 mph, or 5 mph if we're rounding up. The fastest recorded footspeed is Usain Bolt's 27.28 miles per hour. Most of the combatants should be able to catch Wheel Kirby just fine.

That's not what was decided.

Shall we do a vote, then?
@ Nerdicon @ ShadowLBlue @Dryn @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 @ Dastardly Ridleylash
Should Protect be treated as the equivalent of invincibility items such as the Starman, Invincibility Candy, Super Sonic, et cetera?

Meta Knight was trapped in the Mirror Dimension, which could explain why he's only temporary.

Then how did he get there in the first place?

Sonic can't be running the whole time, or he can't attack.

Haha, that's a good one.

Or if he faces Kirby while he's running to attack, he'd be getting closer, and Kirby could get in his attack.

Yeah... no.

Small clown car < actual car. Plus, unless Bowser weighs 1.5 tons, it's not like they'd weigh that much.

The Clown Car is about two Marios tall. Mario is about five feet tall, so the Clown Car is about ten feet tall. It also seems to be the same width, and we can see from some images that it has a similar depth. So it's around 10x10x10 feet.

The standards state any vehicle that is more than 4.7 m (15.4 ft) long, 1.7 m (5.6 ft) wide, 2 m (6.6 ft) high or with engines larger than 2000cc is what is called a "passenger size vehicle". This regulation also mandates that all passenger vehicles can not exceed 5 m (16.4 ft) length or 1.8 m (5.9 ft) width.

They seem to be rather similar in size.

Though, nearly all of them can fly or jump.

And they're also extremely slow, even slower than Kirby himself.

The Helper could also send the opponent under Kirby so they can't dodge.

Unless it gets defeated.

Unless Kirby blocked all of the opponents' attacks.

How exactly would that work?

Why not?

Because the sword's blade is still rather thin.

I imagine it taking around eight seconds, leaving another seven for Kirby to touch and defeat Bowser.

During which Bowser would simply run away.

So it being both said and shown isn't enough for it to be confirmed? Then for all we know, Mario with a Fire Flower could be throwing lava balls, even though they were shown and said to be fireballs.

Ninjas are excellent at confusing people, and this is no exception. We can't take a bystander's word as canon unless that bystander has some sort of actual authority.

As for the fireball deal, I prefer solidified rocket fuel.

He hasn't done it because it's a game mechanic that he can't. I mean, how would sucking up air prevent one from moving their feet?

I'd imagine planting your feet in the ground would be essential for inhaling air effectively at those rates. Without a stable foundation, Kirby might propel himself forward like a reverse jet engine!

It is a real black hole. Before Dark Nebula starts changing the color of things, the stage is black, just like a real black hole. As for why we can see Kirby, and why Kirby can see, this would just be something the creators did to make the game actually playable.

If we can see anything, it does not behave like an actual black hole.

And it's the opinion of the government to use their laws, yet it's not called ad populum if people don't agree with them.

A) The government has actual authority over its country. That website has no authority here.
B) Ad populum is not agreeing with something. Ad populum is saying that your argument is right because more people agree with it.

That's what I was talking about too. However, if the factor is inside the character, that just goes toward their actual power.

Or their skill, or their wits, or their speed.

Pretty much all their attacks would be cosmic, the reason why they aren't shown so is because they are aimed at Kirby. The bosses have justified power that would apply to all their attacks.

How much damage do these attacks actually deal to Kirby?

Though, if we are including the mechanic of Kirby inhaling without being able to move around...

If the Ultra Sword can freeze time, then characters get to pause the game, and Link drinking Chateau Romani freezes time as well.

The Invisibility Stone would counter time freezing, Sonic can't attack if he doesn't know where to attack (or if Kirby is intangible). Since time is frozen, there wouldn't be a time limit.

Then Sonic could just unfreeze time.

He started his teleport right before his opponent stabbed him. How fast is Sonic's teleport?

We don't have footage of Sonic doing it (he did it off screen), but here's a clip of the same technique being performed by Shadow.

Why would those not go into a character's power?

Because they're not power; they're speed, smarts, etc.

Kryptonite weakened Superman's power level, so Lex couldn't receive an accurate power ranking from that.

Fair enough.

That was my point. Donkey Kong would win against Mac in a fight, but the boxing match shows Mac's superiority in strength.

If we're talking about strength, DK could kill Mac with one punch to the gut (or rather, through it). But the rules of boxing say that you can't kill your opponent, so DK is held back. It's like how Sonic has to ride in a car in Sonic and SEGA All-Stars Racing.

Not actually a sound attack, just sound in general. Protect protects the user from sound, shown when against Sonic Boom/Hyper Voice.

Are you saying that Protect negates all sound? Then how does Perish Song get through?

I actually see it as a reliable source.

On what grounds?

Except Little Mac did take blows from Donkey Kong. Mac's and Kong's blows were compared because they were used simultaneously, and Mac's blows were stronger, proved by the fact that he won the match.

DK's punch deals less more (derp) damage than Mac's punch.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Shall we do a vote, then?
@ Nerdicon @ ShadowLBlue @Dryn @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 @ Dastardly Ridleylash
Should Protect be treated as the equivalent of invincibility items such as the Starman, Invincibility Candy, Super Sonic, et cetera?

Protect does protect the user against all incoming damage, physical or not...so yeah, I'd say it's a similar idea (though if we're using PP, than it can be used at a maximum of 16 times before it runs out of uses).

 

[Crystanium]

And what about the armor?

The ship is armored, but Ghor managed to make the damage critical using his attack claws. Consider the claws and realize that sharp objects produce more pressure due to a smaller surface area, thus causing more damage. Not only that, but it looked like there was a blue aura or something around those claws when Ghor was thrusting them into the ship, so that could be another possibility for extra damage.

As in, the final section, where Bowser grows gigantic and destroys a majority of the castle's interior.

If you're talking about the one for the Wii, Kamek helped, so that's a non-issue.

It has a giant laser, which destroys half of the battle arena and instantly KOs Pit.

It deals heavy damage to enemies, although I'm not sure what it's done to vehicles and such.

That's from the GST and it's so telegraphed that the gunship would have time to avoid it.

Wouldn't Samus's gunship be on land at the beginning of the fight?

Technically, no. It would be hovering several meters.

As proven by?

Destroying doors causes the ship to also be destroyed.

Ganon can fly, and can be rather quick in his movements.

No; Ganon can levitate, and this has only been demonstrated in his human form.

Where the gunship would be at the beginning of the match.

Presumably at one end of room. I was under the impression that the opponents are going to be at a distance.

(@Dryn can you give me your input on how those soldiers destroyed that Mechon?).
Use anti-Mechon weaponry forged from Mechon armor (like cuts like).

I'm not quite sure how it was destroyed. It looks like it was shot by a sniper and then attacked by a few soldiers stabbing into it and pulling away from it.

How would Lex defeat Superman then? If it was using Kryptonite or another form of weakness exploition, it just lowers Superman's power level, and that's why Lex wouldn't be considered greater than Superman.

That's exactly how. Therefore, defeating someone stronger than you doesn't make you equal or greater than that someone.

I will bring up these then.

That's super strength, but it says nothing about that being on a moon level scale, which if we really want to talk about that, the moon in DKCR doesn't behave like the actual Moon and isn't of equal size. Furthermore, Donkey Kong was falling, meaning his acceleration played a part, not just brute strength.

I actually see it as a reliable source.

How reliable? Because they got the information about Samus wrong. I bet they got Pit's wrong, too. And Ness being at a universal level? Nah. Gigyas hates prayers and Ness had help.

Except Little Mac did take blows from Donkey Kong. Mac's and Kong's blows were compared because they were used simultaneously, and Mac's blows were stronger, proved by the fact that he won the match.

You're still working on an anachronism. Now, you might say, "Look, that's DK's strength in those two gifs." Yes they are, but none are moon level and the first one has nothing to do with striking strength. It has to do with DK's throwing ability.

@ Munomario777 , protect decays if used consecutively and protect cannot stop acupressure, aromatic mist, confide, conversion 2, curse, doom desire, feint, future sight, hold hands, imprison, perish song, phantom force, play nice, psych up, roar, role play, shadow force, sketch, transform, and whirlwind.

 

[Munomario777]

The ship is armored, but Ghor managed to make the damage critical using his attack claws. Consider the claws and realize that sharp objects produce more pressure due to a smaller surface area, thus causing more damage. Not only that, but it looked like there was a blue aura or something around those claws when Ghor was thrusting them into the ship, so that could be another possibility for extra damage.

Many other characters also have claws, and Arwings have pointed fronts, so a kamikaze-type scenario could work.

If you're talking about the one for the Wii, Kamek helped, so that's a non-issue.

He achieves a similar size in Super Mario Galaxy 2 by using Grand Stars (plus, he's pretty huge in Sunshine). He also has his own black magic, which might be able to help him here.

That's from the GST and it's so telegraphed that the gunship would have time to avoid it.

Fair enough. How long does it take for Samus to take off with the gunship?

Technically, no. It would be hovering several meters.

The Blue Falcon also hovers, and the Falcon Flyer can reach greater heights.

Destroying doors causes the ship to also be destroyed.

A) And yet the numerous explosions, gunfire, etc. don't.
B) Notice how Sonic is flying through an area filled with pipes, wiring, et cetera. If an explosion occurred there, breaking the core systems of the ship, I'd imagine something would go wrong.

No; Ganon can levitate, and this has only been demonstrated in his human form.

Levitation, flight, same difference. He could get on top of the ship and then enter beast form to tear the ship apart.

Presumably at one end of room. I was under the impression that the opponents are going to be at a distance.

I was saying that the ship would start on the ground, so DK would have no problem. Sorry if that ce out wrong.

@ Munomario777 , protect decays if used consecutively and protect cannot stop acupressure, aromatic mist, confide, conversion 2, curse, doom desire, feint, future sight, hold hands, imprison, perish song, phantom force, play nice, psych up, roar, role play, shadow force, sketch, transform, and whirlwind.

So should we use it as a comparison, or no? Of course, this would only be used when there's no equivalent to the attack in the games (i.e. Mario hasn't encountered psychic attacks before, so we use Protect to see if Confusion would work on Rainbow Mario).

 

[Nerdicon]

A) Iron isn't always magnetic, so it shouldn't be ruled out.
B) Any enemy could be that shape.
C) Bosses/minibosses survive Crash, so it likely wouldn't work on most of the cast.
I do like the effort you put into this, though!

A) Iron also rusts, yet Metal Kirby doesn't rust. Iridium is the most resistant metal when it comes to corrosion
B) I know, but the Metaluns aren't machines. It seems like a pretty neat coincidence that all metal enemies form naturally with the same angular shape
C) Kirby bosses and minibosses are tough as nails when you consider what they're up against, they can take prolonged exposure to raw lightning and freezing cold temperatures.

And thanks! This took a long time to do, it was honestly difficult to find a metal that fits all the requirements! Even harder was converting kJ mol to kJ kg as there was no established formula I could find online, I had to make my own formula. I really hope I didn't miss it somewhere because that was a major pain

 

[Crystanium]

Magma ranges from 700-1300 C, though there are some outliers here and there. Given that this magma is bright orange and yellow, it would be on the high end of heat so let's just roll with 1300 C.

It looks dark to me, putting it at least at 1,100 K (826.85°C), not 1,300°C.

Whatever metal Kirby is made out of, it doesn't melt at 1300 degrees C leaving us with an incredibly broad selection of metals. We can limit this again by color, which throws some brighter metals (Titanium namely) out the window, and it doesn't seem to be magnetic (and there goes iron).
However there are still several metals to choose from, and I don't have a great way of narrowing it down, so I'll look at how Metal enemies form. Given their angular design, taken in with all the other findings, I feel that these metals most closely resemble Iridium

Metaluns look lustrous to me. Iron is a lustrous metal. See the iron cube? That's pretty smooth and shiny. I would rule out titanium on the basis that it's light and Metal Kirby is not. As Munomario777 said, not all iron is magnetic. I'm not sure where most metaluns are found, but from the Metalun boss I saw in Kirby: Squeak Squad, it was lingering around in a region of high temperature and at the beginning of the video I saw, Kirby was falling deep.

Of the ten most common elements in the Earth's crust, iron is in fourth place, making up 56,300 ppm by weight. Aluminum is in third, but it has a lower melting point. Throwing that in magma would cause it to melt. Sodium, potassium, and magnesium wouldn't do well in magma, either. Another factor about iron is that it's heavy, so I'd say it's more reasonable to use iron, rather than iridium.

Finally, your result of crash results it in being less powerful than Dynamite Kirby.

 

[Munomario777]

A) Iron also rusts, yet Metal Kirby doesn't rust. Iridium is the most resistant metal when it comes to corrosion
B) I know, but the Metaluns aren't machines. It seems like a pretty neat coincidence that all metal enemies form naturally with the same angular shape
C) Kirby bosses and minibosses are tough as nails when you consider what they're up against, they can take prolonged exposure to raw lightning and freezing cold temperatures.

A) Kirby isn't usually in metal form for long periods of time, and rust happens over time.
B) True, but we shouldn't rule out other metals because of it.
C) They're exposed to Kirby's attacks, which are on a rather small scale. They're not being hit by full-scale lightning bolts (and even then, people have survived that).

Also, what @Dryn just said.

And thanks! This took a long time to do, it was honestly difficult to find a metal that fits all the requirements! Even harder was converting kJ mol to kJ kg as there was no established formula I could find online, I had to make my own formula. I really hope I didn't miss it somewhere because that was a major pain

No problem!