Who needs help with Combos, Damages, Advanced Tactics for Falco, etc.

[DaShizWiz]

MasterGary, what you do vs Marths is you want to spam Nairs, never do a dair unless your comboing. Do nairs to shines, because when you do a dair it pushes marth back so he's able to grab you much easier. When you do a nair, your whole body is next to marth so you can get the shine on. With the dair you might miss the shine because of how marths shield knocks you back. Also, against shield grabbing marths, do a Nair to shine, and after the shine, if the shine didn't hitting the marth and knock him into the air, do a jump canceled grab out of the shine. It works really good on all people that love shielding and grabbing.

 

[MasterGary]

thanks alot. but do u just stay on smash boards all day? i just posted that a couple minutes ago and u alredy had a reply O_O ur quik.

 

[DaShizWiz]

Nah, its just I check Smashboards regularly. I check it every now and then.

 

[terr13]

DaShizWiz, do you have any advice on how to practice tech skill by yourself?

 

[DaShizWiz]

I used to just put a level 1 Fox on, at Final D, and practice my comboing there so I can do it consistently. Practice many combos, but you have to make sure they work even if a real person DI's.

 

[Kumori]

Thanks a lot, that really helped!

 

[Averance]

Hi Shiz,

I have a couple questions (sorry if they were asked already). My friend plays a float-cancel happy peach and i have a lotta trouble against it with falco. Do you have any general strategies against peach?
1) What distance game can i play? (I'm do laser camping but she flies high enough so that it can't be hit by SHL and low enough so that a full jump laser can't hit her either. )
2) When she is comign down with an aerial beside me(most likely a fair) is there anything I can do other than run away and leave it unpunished? Shielding usually results in shield grab/dsmash and intercepting it results in a fair to the face.
3) When I get a shine on the peach on the ground, are there any combo's that I can follow it up with? I'm doing shine --> uair because i found that shine to dair gets me hit after i land (my friend pulls off a nair after). Also when I grab a peach, where do i throw her?
4) I have a big problem with pillaring. I'm sure that I'm getting l-canceling right and doing the dair before I fastfall, but I get grabbed even before I land on the ground. So basically I can't do mcuh when she puts up her shield. Is falco's pillaring 100% grab proof (as in dealing w/ stun frames and start up times)?

Lastly, I saw some of your videos and you seem to jump out of shine really fast. Do you use y for that or press up on the controller? Heck, do you even hold the controller the normal way (i'm wondering how you pull off SHDL w/ fox so often).

Thanks .

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

I could attempt a crack at this.

1) You may be able to SH a laser, but not fast fall it, so it comes out at the peak of the jump. If he's still higher than that, full jump the lasers, and just delay the second shot so it goes lower than usual. I had a lot of trouble with a Peach player for the longest time. My strategy eventually boiled down to a controlled laser approach and then working up damage with small combos. This was because eventually after going combo crazy he'd be able to DI away and nail me in the face and kill me. I just started to work him over with quick damage, retreat to a laser approach again, and usually finished with a d-tilt from a throw or wave dash. Also, I found u-tilts to be pretty nice in this match-up, as well as the age old classic: "get of me! shine."

EDIT: When recovering, I only usually laser spam when they still can't be seen. After that, some Peaches do really dumb mind game stuff to get back on the ledge, namely fast fall past or some such nonesense. I prefer to edge hop Bairs, or just do an empty leap out, and the jump back onto the stage and waveland the edgehog.

 

[Pye]

(I'm do laser camping but she flies high enough so that it can't be hit by SHL and low enough so that a full jump laser can't hit her either. )

Thats a clever Peach. What I find sometimes works against Peaches with good control over their altitude (lol, Peach = fighter jet) is to acualy longjump as high as you can go, then double jump and laser on your way down. Instead of 2 lasers up high and one low, leaving a large gap in the middle, theres a laser on 3 different levels. You could compare it to a wall of sorts. There are, of course, gaps in it, but I think between a high SHL, longjumped lasers and Dj'ed lasers, you can cover enough that Peach will waste too much time deciding where to start her float.

Just cycle between your different laser methods while she tries to approach. Falco's lasers have infinite versitility when it comes to altitude you can hit Peach in one way or another.

 

[doob10163]

Hi shiz, sorry if its been asked. How do I continue to combo from a shine (wavedash, full jump, short jump, double jump?) Does it matter on % and weight very drastically? And what if there is a platform there? What's a good way to follow an opponet's DI when they get hit by shine?

 

[DaShizWiz]

You can continue to Combo from all of those ways, I'd say. Against Fox, for the first shine which should be at low damage from 10 and under, double jump after you get that shine. For the next shines, you short hops to dair shines, but make sure you wavedash out of your shine every time you hit them with it.

I'll continue helping you out later, currently I'm at one of my friends SmashFests, which is almost done. So I will record some new matches and be sure to try to put them up as soon as I can, and to the person that needed help vs Peach, I'll put up some matches of me vs my friends peach, he's best peach in Florida.

 

[kidprecision]

Why do you double jump when they are under 10, and shorthop dair after the first shine>dair?

 

[Pye]

Why do you double jump when they are under 10, and shorthop dair after the first shine>dair?

I think what he's telling you to try is exacly what BS does in this video at 1:49, immediately after the first shine of the combo. I believe that combo is a pretty accurate show of what a "perfect" combo vs Fox would look like.

Check out right afterwords too for a flashy shine -> shine -> dair. Pretty neat

EDIT: BS does the same shine -> doublejump -> dair combo again at 2:24, in case you want to see it done in the reverse direction...

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

There's an explanation for that. Shiz is the american BombSoldier; play-style wise.

 

[marthsword]

For edgeguarding against fox, have you ever shined them out of their up b, immediately jump canceled, and hit them with a bair or nair? I did that a few times, it worked pretty well.

 

[kidprecision]

I dont really want a "BS does it so I have to do it" explanation.

 

[Pye]

Wtf kidprecision, did I ever tell you to do it because BS did it? No, I just gave an example of what Shiz was telling you to do. The fact that BS was the one doing it is completely irrelevent.

Every time BS is mentioned, everyone goes all defensive, as if playing like him is the end of the world. Well, last time I checked, there weren't too many ways of playing Falco. Had it been PC in that video, I'll bet you would never have posted anything like that, kid.

EDIT: TheKneeOfJustice has a good point too. Shiz has openly said that he tries to imitate BS's playstyle. By asking him for help, you're likely to get something that will resemble BS. If, for whatever reason, you "don't want to do it because BS does it", Shiz is the wrong Falco to be asking advice from.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Well said Pye.

@Shiz: About how long did it take to train shuffling into your hands, and how much longer did it take to be fully implemented into your play?

Also, I've probably watched Soldier of Fortune more than anyone on the planet, and I've got one question. On many short-hopped aerials, it appears as though BombSoldier isn't fastfalling, are my eyes decieving me? or is Falco's already fast falling speed enough for him to keep his pace while comboing?

 

[Pye]

Knee, I had to watch Soldier of Fortune again to see what you're talking about. Thats very observant, I hadn't noticed that before. He deffinitly isn't fastfalling sometimes; your eyes are fine, lol. I think he omits the fastfall in some of his shffls when he expects them to get shielded. That way, he flies through his opponents shield and lands behind them, preventing a shieldgrab (against most characters, anyway. I'm sure Marth or Peach could grab him anyway. If you watch, he does it to Fox though, and Fox's grab range isn't broken enough to grab behind him).

After that, he can simply shine while safely out of any tricky shield maneuvers' range. Shield hit stun from his aerial would prevent an opponent's bair or nair out of shield, since it would be belayed just enough to get zapped by BS's shine if it was attempted.

I'm not 100% sure, but it seems logical, no?

 

[Averance]

No i think the main reason why bombsoldier and they pull it off is that if the shind DOESNT work, they must continue pillaring (double shining/dair's)etc. For that, you need to SH. So the double jump is more of a "reaction" type of move, in that you short hop, see he got hit, then quickly change your game to double jump and come down.

After all, at that percetnage the normal shine --> wave dash --> dair works too.

 

[MasterGary]

i want to achive bombsoldier lvl of playing. as soon as i got imspired in playing smash competitivly with falco. sumwun told me about bombsoldier and i tried to study the way he plays and try to use sum of his combos and manuvers. while still using my own combos. but i stil have problem playing peach and mario/doc. anywun got strategies for those 3 characters?

 

[BKrkr]

Hey man, thanks for making this help thread. Guides are nice but most times you need someone to walk you through it.

I'm a pretty good falco since 01 and I've wanted to get into professional play for a while. I'ma be trying to get a spot on mlg tourneys in 07 with help from my boys (djnintendo for one). Anyway, I wanted to ask you about how to REALLY implement the wavedash in starting combos on low damage.

ex: Fight starts, and X comes in for quick attack. I shield, then shine. Now what? I wd towards their landing spot and shine pillar? I also saw in a video a falco using nair while flying at his opponent, on the ground a fair distance away. He pretty much sh'ed straight up and naired the guy while doing some Jet Li ish lol. Yea, so, I wanna do that

Thanks.

 

[MasterGary]

Hey man, thanks for making this help thread. Guides are nice but most times you need someone to walk you through it.

I'm a pretty good falco since 01 and I've wanted to get into professional play for a while. I'ma be trying to get a spot on mlg tourneys in 07 with help from my boys (djnintendo for one). Anyway, I wanted to ask you about how to REALLY implement the wavedash in starting combos on low damage.

ex: Fight starts, and X comes in for quick attack. I shield, then shine. Now what? I wd towards their landing spot and shine pillar? I also saw in a video a falco using nair while flying at his opponent, on the ground a fair distance away. He pretty much sh'ed straight up and naired the guy while doing some Jet Li ish lol. Yea, so, I wanna do that

Thanks.

u shud b a lil more specific. what kinda jet li stuff?

 

[kidprecision]

Wtf kidprecision, did I ever tell you to do it because BS did it? No, I just gave an example of what Shiz was telling you to do. The fact that BS was the one doing it is completely irrelevent.

Every time BS is mentioned, everyone goes all defensive, as if playing like him is the end of the world. Well, last time I checked, there weren't too many ways of playing Falco. Had it been PC in that video, I'll bet you would never have posted anything like that, kid.

EDIT: TheKneeOfJustice has a good point too. Shiz has openly said that he tries to imitate BS's playstyle. By asking him for help, you're likely to get something that will resemble BS. If, for whatever reason, you "don't want to do it because BS does it", Shiz is the wrong Falco to be asking advice from.

i was simply asking for an better explanation. not an explanation that says "BS does it"

edit: let me clear myself up a bit.
okif you opponent doesnt DI away from you why would you double jump to dair> waveshine instead of just double jump to dair> shine> double jump dair?

 

[Pye]

@MasterGary: There are some vs. Peach tactics on the previous page, if you haven't read them yet. In general, against a peach, what you should remember is two things: she's floaty, so if you can, KO her up (dtilt, if you can). If that becomes predicatable, she dosn't recover very well from your spike, so put her off the stage and see if you can get an early kill by throwing her too low for her whimpy vertical recovery (get into an edgehog ASAP after the spike. She'll try and grab the edge with her parasol).

Secondly, your lasers pull her out of her float. She will probably start beeing very carful about how high she floats to avoid them. Be creative with your lasers, spreading them as erratically as you can at different heights to make her approach really difficult. It helps immensly to be able to do this while retreating. Make sure you can not only RSHL, but reverse lasers at relativly any height you want. Such mastery of lasers takes practice, for sure, but can save you against peach.

When you shine Peach (or start pop her up into the air with any method), she's floaty enough that she can escape at mid percents. Don't go for fancy combos. The fanciest I'd attempt is shine -> dair -> utilt. After one of those, just go for shine -> uair to build some damage, then go for the KO with one of the methods in the first paragraph.

As for Mario/Doc...well, I honestly don't have experience with them. I'm guessing you can out-spam their projectiles, right? Falco is a lot more mobile with his lasers then Doc with his pills, I'm guessing. As for comboing them, they are semi-floaties, so you can go for some complex chains if you want to try. You won't be able to tack on as much as you can against a fastfaller, but you can give them enough that your traditional KO moves should work (fsmash, bair and nair).

Like I said, thats all speculation. You should wait for a more experienced player answers. Where's Shiz?

EDIT: @kidprecision: Like I said before, BS just happens to be the Falco I remembered doing it. I was just showing you what it looked like.

In theory, you could just shine -> Dj dair repeatedly, but I think the reason for waveshining on the second one is it's much easier to chase DI with waveshines. If your opponent dosn't DI away, then by all means continue the double jump method.

I apologize for redirecting you to that same BS vs Jing video on the previous page, but after the first shine -> Dj dair, you can see that Jing's DI to the right is extrememly noticable, and has a significant impact on how far over he goes. If you DJed out of your second shine, theres no way you could follow that. However, waveshines (as shown) allow for a pretty simple and effective DI chase. Since you are standing, lagless, after a waveshine, you can chase in ether direction and reach your opponent before the shine's hitstun ends.

 

[MasterGary]

@MasterGary: There are some vs. Peach tactics on the previous page, if you haven't read them yet. In general, against a peach, what you should remember is two things: she's floaty, so if you can, KO her up (dtilt, if you can). If that becomes predicatable, she dosn't recover very well from your spike, so put her off the stage and see if you can get an early kill by throwing her too low for her whimpy vertical recovery (get into an edgehog ASAP after the spike. She'll try and grab the edge with her parasol).

Secondly, your lasers pull her out of her float. She will probably start beeing very carful about how high she floats to avoid them. Be creative with your lasers, spreading them as erratically as you can at different heights to make her approach really difficult. It helps immensly to be able to do this while retreating. Make sure you can not only RSHL, but reverse lasers at relativly any height you want. Such mastery of lasers takes practice, for sure, but can save you against peach.

When you shine Peach (or start pop her up into the air with any method), she's floaty enough that she can escape at mid percents. Don't go for fancy combos. The fanciest I'd attempt is shine -> dair -> utilt. After one of those, just go for shine -> uair to build some damage, then go for the KO with one of the methods in the first paragraph.

As for Mario/Doc...well, I honestly don't have experience with them. I'm guessing you can out-spam their projectiles, right? Falco is a lot more mobile with his lasers then Doc with his pills, I'm guessing. As for comboing them, they are semi-floaties, so you can go for some complex chains if you want to try. You won't be able to tack on as much as you can against a fastfaller, but you can give them enough that your traditional KO moves should work (fsmash, bair and nair).

Like I said, thats all speculation. You should wait for a more experienced player answers. Where's Shiz?

this seems like good advice but against mario all he has to do is get me off the stage when i try using fire bird to come back he will jump and shoot a fire bal i will fall lower. so my only option is another firebird and then i will get caped and fall to my doom.

 

[Pye]

this seems like good advice but against mario all he has to do is get me off the stage when i try using fire bird to come back he will jump and shoot a fire bal i will fall lower. so my only option is another firebird and then i will get caped and fall to my doom.

Oh, I see. You're having problems with the cape. While I've never had it done to me in combat, I've heard how much of a serious pain in the *** the cape is to Falco (and even moreso to Fox).

I would tell you to play a more laser based game, but I know that sitting there and spamming the cape can reflect 2 of every 3 lasers from Falco. You could try an improvised laser approach to exploit the cape's lag (like, fire a few standing SHLs, preferably as low as you can get them, to make him cape, then approach such that you can SH over any reflected lasers and go for a grab). Mario and Doc like to put you off with an early bthrow, right? That means he has to grab you. Use your WD to space and stay out of his grab range.

Acualy, they can both chaingrab you, so you should be avoiding a grab anyway. If he does try a bthrow -> cape, do your best to DI the throw up and towards the stage so that you are high enough to shine and stop your momentum early, then phantasm over his head, out of the cape's range.

This matchup seems tougher and tougher the more I think about it

EDIT: After watching some Falco vs Mario/Doc matches, I've noticed that even some very good Falcos get fthrow/bthrow -> caped off the edge at low percents (one here where Falco loses a stock at 29% to a Doc's cape). Falco looks like he can combo Doc pretty well though, so I think you need to have solid and varied approach techniques. Once you get him in a combo, thats at least 40% on him.

Also, I was wrong about the cape reflecting lasers beeing a problem. Very often, it looks like if Doc tries to cape a laser from an approaching Falco, it usualy results in him getting ***** in the lag, even if the Falco gets hit by the laser. Use sudden SHL approaches from close up (like 1 or 2 SHLs away).

 

[MasterGary]

Oh, I see. You're having problems with the cape. While I've never had it done to me in combat, I've heard how much of a serious pain in the *** the cape is to Falco (and even moreso to Fox).

I would tell you to play a more laser based game, but I know that sitting there and spamming the cape can reflect 2 of every 3 lasers from Falco. You could try an improvised laser approach to exploit the cape's lag (like, fire a few standing SHLs, preferably as low as you can get them, to make him cape, then approach such that you can SH over any reflected lasers and go for a grab). Mario and Doc like to put you off with an early bthrow, right? That means he has to grab you. Use your WD to space and stay out of his grab range.

Acualy, they can both chaingrab you, so you should be avoiding a grab anyway. If he does try a bthrow -> cape, do your best to DI the throw up and towards the stage so that you are high enough to shine and stop your momentum early, then phantasm over his head, out of the cape's range.

This matchup seems tougher and tougher the more I think about it

it realy is a tough and anoying match up. but so far peach and mario/doc are the only people i hav problems with. and marh a little but i can beat him and the way i play now i can beat him 75% of the time.

 

[kidprecision]

Im trying a new method to follow the DI. DJ> fastfall>waveland>shorthop dair shine. this is known as the precision chase.

 

[Pye]

@kidprecision: Does that get you far enough, fast enough? If so, then use it by all means . Waveshine -> WD is a tried and true method of chasing a fastfaller's DI after a shine, thats all. Thats why Shiz was telling you to Dj on your first one, then waveshine the second; because by the second shine, they know it's comming and WILL DI it if they know to do so. If you can chase the DI with a method involving Djing out of your second shine, then go for it.

One thing you should remember is that with the waveshine -> wavedash DI chase method, you can acualy chase the wrong way on the wave shine and still use WDs to catch your opponent. Quite handy.

@MasterGary: I've acualy never fought any of those characters before (Peach, Doc or Mario. At least not with Falco), so I'm not 100% sure how a fight against them works. What I was giving you were small facts I happen to know that could be helpful, but I can't provide a complete character matchup without making the whole thing up based on what I deduce (and of course, 90% of it will be wrong if I do that, so I don't want to ).

I'm not very helpful for most character specific matchups, I know . Like I said, wait for Shiz or Mathos to give you an answer. They have the experience to give you all the info you need.

 

[BKrkr]

By jet li stuff I mean using the nair while going towards the foe at a pretty decent speed. Also wave dashing into the opponent for a shine (is this a no-no?) and then wd'ing under wherever they go for a shinecombo is essential,so when exactly do I judge when the perfect opening takes place? Let's say I start shl'ing, and when say doc is caping I go short hopping (over lasers) in and start shiny pillaring him? I'm basically asking for your advice on beginning low and medium % combos bud. Thanks.

 

[Pye]

By jet li stuff I mean using the nair while going towards the foe at a pretty decent speed. Also wave dashing into the opponent for a shine (is this a no-no?) and then wd'ing under wherever they go for a shinecombo is essential,so when exactly do I judge when the perfect opening takes place? Let's say I start shl'ing, and when say doc is caping I go short hopping (over lasers) in and start shiny pillaring him? I'm basically asking for your advice on beginning low and medium % combos bud. Thanks.

I think what you're seeing by "Jet Li stuff" is just a shffled nair, possibly without a fastfall. Falco's 6-frame jump acualy allows him to gain a bit more momentum on his shffls then other characters. To gain maximum horizontal distance with a shffled nair, I would foxtrot -> SH -> nair -> l-cancel. No fastfall. This is untested though, so I'm not sure how easily you could get shieldgrabbed out of it. If you do, just start fastfalling, and use the shine to prevent shieldgrabs

WDing into an opponent for a shine isn't nessissarily a bad idea, but I wouldn't abuse it. It's almost always a better idea to lead in with lasers and an aerial. Wavelanding into a shine maybe isn't a bad idea ether. Do some circle jumping and see if you can get your opponent intimidated. If they get defensive, suddenly waveland towards them instead of away on a circle jump and shine. If they get behind you, follow them with WDs.

An opening for Falco is basically any time you can slip in a shine to hit your opponent. It's hard to describe exacly what you're looking for. It's just a feeling you get with experience. Lasers on approach are to force your opponent to do something you can follow easily: if they shield, you grab in the shield hit stun. If they jump, you jump into a nair. If they just take the lasers...then their idiots and you start a combo. Again, the more you play, the more instinct your approach will become, and eventually, you'll just kind of...know...when it's time to shine (pun intended).

I hope I was helpful

 

[BKrkr]

Definately thanks Pye. BTW is montreal a big smash community, or do you come down to the states once in a while to smash?

 

[Pye]

It's pretty big, acualy. I'm acualy not a big enough smash player to travel very much for it (not to mention that I'm too young to drive XD), so I do almost no traveling to play. Most of my games are with friends, and I'm trying to get involved with the smash community around here.

 

[Tipo mastr]

Hey shiz. What's a good way to practice pillaring? Also, what buttons do you personally use to do it? I use B, Y, and down+A. Do you do it any differently that might help improve the speed of it? Lastly, how can I practice JC'd shines so i can do many in a row reliably? In case if you're confused, im talking about the jump-shine-jump-shine-jump-shine etc where you don't leave the ground.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

which attack do u shffl with the most?

 

[Kashakunaki]

What should my following distance in general be with Falco?

Do I want to stay far away, do I want to be up in their face at all times, or about a medium distance? I'm thinking up in their face unless you go to defense, but I was unsure. Knowing my spacing would really help my game. Help?

 

[MasterGary]

this might seem like a realy nooby question. but what egzactly is pilaring. b4 i used to think it wus when u shine-> jump-> shine->jump->shine. but it seems like they have a difrent meaning to it than what i thot it wus.

 

[DaShizWiz]

Sorry I havn't been able to answer everyones questions guys. I've been gone from my house since Saturday. But I hear some people saying stuff like they need help vs Peach, Mario, Doc and possibly Falco dittos.

Right now on my new thread of fights, I have falco dittos and one match vs Peach. Be sure to check it out, and if you guys have any questions just ask me.


Here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2020631#post2020631

 

[0ChibiCloud]

Hm ive seen a lot of falcos do the up-b ledge stall without shining before it, and i can't get it right...any tips on how to perfect this?