Who is a good Secondary if I main Charizard?

[spacefish3]

My current secondary is Ness. I feel like I want to change who my secondary is, so who is a good secondary to Charizard? (Preferably one that helps Charizard's bad matchups)

 

[JJBro1]

whoever you have the most fun with. Why would there need to be a specific character as a secondary?

 

[spacefish3]

whoever you have the most fun with. Why would there need to be a specific character as a secondary?

I don't know, I would just prefer a character that helps Charizard's bad matchups.

 

[JJBro1]

For what it's worth my secondary is sonic.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Perhaps Sheik or Robin?

 

[spacefish3]

Perhaps Sheik or Robin?

Thanks for the suggestion! I think I will try out Sheik because she has seemed interesting to me for a while.

 

[Davregis]

Thanks for the suggestion! I think I will try out Sheik because she has seemed interesting to me for a while.

I think I may just try out Sheik as well.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

You can probably guess from my avi, but I use Bowser Jr Roy as my secondary

 

[Leety]

My two mains are Rosaluma and Zard

What got me to decide was due to my playstyle of how I enjoy playing 'somewhat' defensively while applying pressure and play mind games with my opponents. Rosaluma is great against the MUs I need to play more patiently on like Villager and Zard works great for MUs I need to apply more pressure to my foes like Pika.

But if you're looking to specifically counter bad MUs for Zard. Maybe somebody that's a bit of a fastfaller like Fox? The answer might just be to explore Zard a bit more then find out a secondary somewhere down the road.

 

[Braydon]

There's no reason you need to limit yourself to two chars, I'd say pick up bowser as a third as he should be easy to learn for a zard main. Also if you just want one char who can handle anything go with captain falcon.

 

[-LzR-]

If you use a secondary you defeat the whole purpose of playing Charizard and soon you will realize your secondary handles every matchup better.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Use a secondary custom set.

 

[vegeta18]

If you use a secondary you defeat the whole purpose of playing Charizard and soon you will realize your secondary handles every matchup better.

yeah this is what usually happens, you`ll start playing a secondary that has way better match ups than charizard, and you`ll pretty much just turn zard into your secondary or drop him all together. What are some specific charizard match ups that you are having trouble with? maybe just pick 2 or 3 characters you have the MOST troubles with against with zard, and pick a secondary who has good mu`s against them.

Its important if you wanna be a charizard main, to really focus and learn all of his bad match ups anyways though even if you do decide on a secondary.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Playing a secondary doesn't defeat the whole purpose of playing zard. It depends on what you use the secondary for.

It can be easy to get set in your ways when you adamantly stick to just one character. Charizard isn't as binary as people make him out to be, but it's easy to develop a one-demensional playstyle with the character due to how few options charizard has compared to the rest of the cast.

When you play a character with a playstyle vastly different than your main, one side effect you might notice is that, when you try to use your main again, you subconsciously try to use strategies from the other character an apply it to your main character. Sometimes the strategies wont work, but other times you'll realize that you just might be onto something.

Playing Junior gets me used to doing a bunch of things, handling items, using clever mind games and mixups, using what movement options you have to fake out your opponents. For any other zard mains out there. Look at your secondary. Then look at your playstyle with zard. Notice any similarities? That's probably why



In my opinion there's almost no reason not to have a secondary with zard. His moves themselves are simple enough that you don't need to practice him for hours to get him down, so you aren't sacrificing skill with the character by picking someone else up.

You'll have someone to cover the matchups with zard that you don't like.

You won't get bored as quickly. It's a game! Have fun with it!

And, most importaltly, you might acutally improve faster because playing other characters helps you add different elements to your playstyle that you might not have thought about before.

 

[Knee Smasher]

I am not sure if this is the optimal character for this purpose, but I believe that with a combination of Charizard and Captain Falcon, the only characters one will consistently have less than a 50-50 matchup against are Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus and Robin.

 

[Braydon]

I am not sure if this is the optimal character for this purpose, but I believe that with a combination of Charizard and Captain Falcon, the only characters one will consistently have less than a 50-50 matchup against are Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus and Robin.

Isn't Charizard good on Rosalina? It seems to me like charizard should make easy work of the luma with rocksmash and flamethrower.

 

[16bit]

Just use different custom sets each match. Each one could handle a different matchup better.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Isn't Charizard good on Rosalina? It seems to me like charizard should make easy work of the luma with rocksmash and flamethrower.

Assuming custom moves are allowed then yes, Charizard does do well against Rosalina thanks to Dragon Rush. I am certain that this matchup is in Rosalina's favor if custom moves are not allowed though.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Isn't Charizard good on Rosalina? It seems to me like charizard should make easy work of the luma with rocksmash and flamethrower.

Rosalina boards would tell you differently.

Then again, they love their character too much....

 

[Davregis]

Rosalina boards would tell you differently.

Then again, they love their character too much....

So do we

 

[Grizzlpaw]

This man speaks the Truf

 

[Mightyno.M]

I know it's a bit early and sure having secondaries has its pros and cons but Roy seems to be a good partner for Charizard now

He has nearly the opposite of what we have

He can combo well but has bad recovery while Charizard kills floaties extremely early and doesn't get gimped as easily

I think they cover their strengths amd weaknesses well and the both use fire

Just my one cent

Edit: to add another two cents Roy seems to have trouble dealing with luma as it keeps getting in the way. Charizard on the other hand doesn't

 

[dangeraaron10]

For what it's worth, I play Charizard and Pikachu almost equally and I want to master the two characters. Pikachu and Charizard are my favorite Nintendo characters, and the two of them have very different strengths and weaknesses. Charizard might not be all that great (though he got some amazing buffs recently!) and Pikachu is actually undervalued as one of the best fighters, even if he's not Hoo Hah or ZeroShiek worthy. I tend to stick with Charizard, but if I GOTTA GO FAST, I pick up the adorable yellow mouse. If Zero Samus is threatneing me I pick Pika instantly. He can crouch under her tether grab you know?

Otherwise I tough it out with the Zard. He might not have a lot of amazing matchups, but tasting victory with Charizard is always sweeter.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Well, let's look at the Zard's weaknesses.
-Projectiles
-Getting combo'd
-Getting juggled

So we need someone who escapes from combos well enough and can deal with projectiles. Pikachu sounds like the best option to me. T-jolt and QA give him a great neutral game, and his small body is difficult to combo. On top of that, QA can help him escape juggles. Meanwhile, Pikachu's only one serious weakness is kill power, which Charizard's new U-throw covers up nicely.

Jeeze, the more I think about it, the more it feels like Zard and the yellow rat are exact opposites of each other.

 

[dangeraaron10]

Well, let's look at the Zard's weaknesses.
-Projectiles
-Getting combo'd
-Getting juggled

So we need someone who escapes from combos well enough and can deal with projectiles. Pikachu sounds like the best option to me. T-jolt and QA give him a great neutral game, and his small body is difficult to combo. On top of that, QA can help him escape juggles. Meanwhile, Pikachu's only one serious weakness is kill power, which Charizard's new U-throw covers up nicely.

Jeeze, the more I think about it, the more it feels like Zard and the yellow rat are exact opposites of each other.

They're perfect for each other!

But seriously though, I run Pika/Zard and by doing so I keep options open.

 

[SirJuicius]

I think it's always good to have your options. Don't just add one character, add a few because more options gives you more ways to counter your opponent's character.

Lets say for example you're Zard and someone else is Sonic. You're getting overwhelmed with the speed factor and wind up losing. Wario is a pretty good counter to Sonic, because his bite move will make Sonic think twice about using his speed so recklessly. Spin dashes and homing attacks are also something Wario can take a bite out of. Now lets say this opponent counter picks with... Sheik. Someone who has a projectile that can't really be negated with the bite attack, has good speed and can land easy hits. Obviously Charizard wouldn't really work, but neither will Wario. Who do you go to then? That's when you need to have another option at your disposal. Someone like Luigi would be a good option to go to.

So to give a blunt answer... look at multiple characters to add on, and stretch your options across the tier list.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Playing multiple characters with diff playstyles is great <3 100% agree

Playing 3 Super Heavy characters along with 1 Really beautiful light character is also fun <3

4 life

(Pocket: )

 

[Z1GMA]

Be confident in your Charizard and don't use a secondary. After the patch, Zard is capable of winning even his worse MUs if he's having a good day.

 

[Dsull]

Charizard isnt as pathetic as people think he is, hes just insanely difficult to use since his attacks seem to have different effects on just about anyone. I can perma combo Falco until i reach the edge of the map with tripjab + nair + tripjab + etcetc but then other oddballs like Dedede for some reason can recover fast enough to hit me before i even get out of the spin from nair, let alone hit the ground for jabs. You'd think that would be the other way around....lol...
That being said, when he faces a bad matchup (least far as ive noticed) it isnt as severe as other bad matchups thanks to Strength (DownB) and his Nair having such a huge hitbox. When i play other characters like DK, sometimes i just cannot ever beat a Shiek or ZSS if theyre half competent but i can still do it as Charizard if i dont get cocky/brave.

And i agree with the others, Pikachu is pretty much a polar opposite to Zard so he'd be a good alt. Though personally i find him difficult to use sometimes, but that could be just me since im used to heavier characters.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

They're perfect for each other!

But seriously though, I run Pika/Zard and by doing so I keep options open.

This is so completely true! I don't know how to play pikachu, but my friend does, and by far our best team combination online is charizard and pikachu, which we call the Pokémon dream team! Between the two of them, you cover all options, as pikachu is amazing at racking up percent on opponents, and winning neutral, while charizard is great at punishing, killing, and can get some deadly combos off pikachu's throws!

 

[AustarusIV]

Yoshi's my best character, and I think he forms a nice contrast with Charizard's read-heavy, punishing playstyle in this game. I think it would be worth the effort into seeing if he's your kind of guy.

Robin's another good character to use if you want someone else who's read-heavy.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I like bowser since he's basically a free character

It sounds wierd, but bowser is such a fundamental character that most skills you pick up with him can be applied directly to char~

All about the PH1R3~!

 

[Jmacz]

For what it's worth, I play Charizard and Pikachu almost equally and I want to master the two characters. Pikachu and Charizard are my favorite Nintendo characters, and the two of them have very different strengths and weaknesses. Charizard might not be all that great (though he got some amazing buffs recently!) and Pikachu is actually undervalued as one of the best fighters, even if he's not Hoo Hah or ZeroShiek worthy. I tend to stick with Charizard, but if I GOTTA GO FAST, I pick up the adorable yellow mouse. If Zero Samus is threatneing me I pick Pika instantly. He can crouch under her tether grab you know?

Otherwise I tough it out with the Zard. He might not have a lot of amazing matchups, but tasting victory with Charizard is always sweeter.

This is what I have started running with recently, but I still had a lot of trouble with the Luigi MU which is why I would also suggest Roy. Pikachu and Charizard both have trouble with Luigi, at least in my experience. Roy may be the best Luigi counter in the game, at least in my opinion so if you struggle with that MU I suggest him.

 

[Dre89]

I like bowser since he's basically a free character

It sounds wierd, but bowser is such a fundamental character that most skills you pick up with him can be applied directly to char~

All about the PH1R3~!

Bowser is just a straight up better version of Zard. They're movesets and playstyles are incredibly similar, but Bowser has better options in neutral and for killing.

 

[Steeler]

Bowser is much, much worse in disadvantage. In juggle and landing situations, he has one less jump and no armored moves the opponent has to respect. His recovery is also a lot worse. Zard is now one of the 3 best characters at killing off grabs, plus literally every other move of his can kill (most of Bowser's moves kill too, but not, say, a grab mid stage at 130). His neutral may be slightly better, but I don't think it's enough to make up for the downsides. I feel like he has less tricks up his proverbial sleeve than Zard, which makes him less unpredictable.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Actually, Bowser's neutral game is worse than Charizard's for a very simple and fundamental reason: The outer portion of Bowser's Fire Breath does not flinch, whereas the entire length of Charizard's Flamethrower flinches. Here is why that is such a big deal:

First of all, I am sure that any competent Charizard player would agree with me that if Charizard did not have Flamethrower, his neutral game would be far worse. And the same thing applies to the case with any competent Bowser player, Bowser, and Fire Breath.

In the neutral game/when approaching another character, Charizard would want to space his jumping Flamethrowers in such a way that he hits the opponent with the very tip of his flames, for a very simple reason: So that if the opponent decides to dash or roll forward, they cannot end up behind Charizard and then punish him from behind while he is using Flamethrower (I believe Mewtwo is the only character with a roll long enough such that he can be out of Flamethrower's range and roll behind Charizard). However, since the tip of Bowser's Fire Breath does not flinch, then he has to choose between either not flinching the opponent with his flames (and thus allowing them to either roll behind or jump over the inner flinching portion of Fire Breath and then punish Bowser), or spacing himself such that he is closer to the opponent so his flames can flinch them, and risk the opponent rolling behind him and punishing him.

Of course, I am aware that both characters' neutral games are far more complex than simply approaching by jumping and then breathing fire, but I believe that what I mentioned in this post is important enough to be a deal-breaker when talking about which character has the superior neutral game.

 

[Dre89]

Fire breath effectiveness is nowhere near relevant enough because it's a super rare option. You do SH fire twice and they'll just jump over it the third time.

Bowser is much, much worse in disadvantage. In juggle and landing situations, he has one less jump and no armored moves the opponent has to respect. His recovery is also a lot worse. Zard is now one of the 3 best characters at killing off grabs, plus literally every other move of his can kill (most of Bowser's moves kill too, but not, say, a grab mid stage at 130). His neutral may be slightly better, but I don't think it's enough to make up for the downsides. I feel like he has less tricks up his proverbial sleeve than Zard, which makes him less unpredictable.

Why do you think Zard has more tricks up his sleeve? I'm curious, because they seem to both be pretty linear characters.

You might be right about disadvantage, but it's not as bad as you think because dair is a very effective landing mix-up. It sounds scrubby, but the slight stall before he descends often messes up people's timing when they're trying punish your landing with a dash attack or a pivot grab. It also has a huge landing windbox which makes it safer than it looks. At higher percents he can also bomb to the ledge. His disadvantage is still bad and these are just mix-ups, but he has more options than he did in Brawl.

Even with the grab, Bowser still kills reliably way earlier than Zard. The only reliable way Zard can kill someone under 100% is offstage fair, which Bowser has too. Bowser bomb can kill a lot of the cast at around 80. Remember, grounded bomb is legit this game because it has decently fast start up, the pop-up combos into the bomb, and can be easily set up with jab. You don't even need jab most of the time because of the speed of the pop-up. Outside of that, I still think Bowser has more effective ways to kill. His fsmash is better (not really relevant because it's not a reliable kill move) and his usmash is better. All of is aerials except nair can kill too.

The only moveslot where Zard has a kill option that Bowser doesn't is grab. That's pretty good, but Bowser has bomb which kills a lot earlier, and is almost as easy to land as a grab.

 

[Steeler]

I'm mainly referring to Zard having more tricks in disadvantage, neutral is basically the same. Having an extra jump helps a lot, side B gives him a way to reposition if given the space to do so, and he has multiple armored moves. Zard nair is also probably the best landing aerial either character has because of the autocancel being so close to the last hitbox frame. Still not Mario dair level or anything but decent in multiple scenarios. It's too bad Bowser doesn't have any armor, I could see him having heavy armor on his up B or something.

On a side note, I'd have to give the fsmash nod to Zard because he is invincible during the hitbox frames. The moves are fairly similar otherwise.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Actually, Bowser's neutral game is worse than Charizard's for a very simple and fundamental reason: The outer portion of Bowser's Fire Breath does not flinch, whereas the entire length of Charizard's Flamethrower flinches. Here is why that is such a big deal:

First of all, I am sure that any competent Charizard player would agree with me that if Charizard did not have Flamethrower, his neutral game would be far worse. And the same thing applies to the case with any competent Bowser player, Bowser, and Fire Breath.

In the neutral game/when approaching another character, Charizard would want to space his jumping Flamethrowers in such a way that he hits the opponent with the very tip of his flames, for a very simple reason: So that if the opponent decides to dash or roll forward, they cannot end up behind Charizard and then punish him from behind while he is using Flamethrower (I believe Mewtwo is the only character with a roll long enough such that he can be out of Flamethrower's range and roll behind Charizard). However, since the tip of Bowser's Fire Breath does not flinch, then he has to choose between either not flinching the opponent with his flames (and thus allowing them to either roll behind or jump over the inner flinching portion of Fire Breath and then punish Bowser), or spacing himself such that he is closer to the opponent so his flames can flinch them, and risk the opponent rolling behind him and punishing him.

Of course, I am aware that both characters' neutral games are far more complex than simply approaching by jumping and then breathing fire, but I believe that what I mentioned in this post is important enough to be a deal-breaker when talking about which character has the superior neutral game.

Bowser's Fire Breath sucks and isn't much of a factor in his neutral. He's got much better spacing tools anyways. The fact that you evaluate Bowser's neutral based off of Fire Breath of all things suggests that you don't know much about Bowser. Bowser's dash grab is much better than Charizard's, his tilts are better, his aerials are better in neutral except for Nair, and his OOS game is (very slightly, because Zard's is also good) better. Zard's got a vastly superior advantaged state over Bowser, but Bowser's decidedly better in neutral and doesn't use Fire Breath as a poke in neutral, mostly to rack damage on opponents offstage/near the ledge.

 

[Knee Smasher]

I have been playing Bowser since Brawl launch, and Charizard since Smash 3DS launch. I am very good with both characters, and I can tell you that some of the things you said are wrong. I agree that Bowser has superior tilts, aerial attacks except for Nair and Uair, and a better dash grab. However, Bowser, just like Charizard, is very reliant on the Neutral B in the neutral game/approaching, especially against extremely projectile-reliant characters, due to the fact that this move is safe on both shield and spot-dodge, unlike most of the other moves of these two characters. Also, while you said that Bowser's out-of-shield game is only very slightly better than Charizard's, I disagree with this, and believe that the out-of-shield game is one of Bowser's most notable and significant advantages over Charizard, not because Charizard's out-of-shield game isn't very good, but because Bowser's Whirling Fortress out of shield is simply a god-like option.

While Bowser undeniably has many advantages over Charizard every here and there, I believe that at the end of the day, the following advantages of Charizard's outweighs all of Bowser's advantages (in descending order of importance):

1. The fact that the entire length of Flamethrower flinches, unlike the case with Fire Breath. This is the most important reason not only because of the reasons outlined in my previous post, but also because it makes Charizard far better at edgeguarding than Bowser. The details of why are outlined here.
2. Charizard's jab is faster, and since it consists of three hits, has the option of possessing a longer-lasting set of hitboxes, which is better for frame-trapping/"counter-punishing" purposes, as outlined in this post.
3. Charizard has a much better and less situational kill throw.
4. Bowser does not have a move whose function (in terms of the combination of its damage, knockback, hitbox size and situation in which it would be used) is anywhere close to equivalent to that of Charizard's Dsmash - a very important and useful move in Charizard's arsenal.
5. Flare Blitz
6. Charizard's standing grab is faster and has more range.
7. Charizard has three jumps, making his movements through the air more flexible and his landing less predictable.
8. Charizard has a higher dashing speed, which not only further contributes to the superiority of his neutral game, but also his punish game as well.