Who is a good Secondary if I main Charizard?

[Dre89]

I'm mainly referring to Zard having more tricks in disadvantage, neutral is basically the same. Having an extra jump helps a lot, side B gives him a way to reposition if given the space to do so, and he has multiple armored moves. Zard nair is also probably the best landing aerial either character has because of the autocancel being so close to the last hitbox frame. Still not Mario dair level or anything but decent in multiple scenarios. It's too bad Bowser doesn't have any armor, I could see him having heavy armor on his up B or something.

On a side note, I'd have to give the fsmash nod to Zard because he is invincible during the hitbox frames. The moves are fairly similar otherwise.

I'll give you that, so who do you think is better?

I have been playing Bowser since Brawl launch, and Charizard since Smash 3DS launch. I am very good with both characters, and I can tell you that some of the things you said are wrong. I agree that Bowser has superior tilts, aerial attacks except for Nair and Uair, and a better dash grab. However, Bowser, just like Charizard, is very reliant on the Neutral B in the neutral game/approaching, especially against extremely projectile-reliant characters, due to the fact that this move is safe on both shield and spot-dodge, unlike most of the other moves of these two characters. Also, while you said that Bowser's out-of-shield game is only very slightly better than Charizard's, I disagree with this, and believe that the out-of-shield game is one of Bowser's most notable and significant advantages over Charizard, not because Charizard's out-of-shield game isn't very good, but because Bowser's Whirling Fortress out of shield is simply a god-like option.

While Bowser undeniably has many advantages over Charizard every here and there, I believe that at the end of the day, the following advantages of Charizard's outweighs all of Bowser's advantages (in descending order of importance):

1. The fact that the entire length of Flamethrower flinches, unlike the case with Fire Breath. This is the most important reason not only because of the reasons outlined in my previous post, but also because it makes Charizard far better at edgeguarding than Bowser. The details of why are outlined here.
2. Charizard's jab is faster, and since it consists of three hits, has the option of possessing a longer-lasting set of hitboxes, which is better for frame-trapping/"counter-punishing" purposes, as outlined in this post.
3. Charizard has a much better and less situational kill throw.
4. Bowser does not have a move whose function (in terms of the combination of its damage, knockback, hitbox size and situation in which it would be used) is anywhere close to equivalent to that of Charizard's Dsmash - a very important and useful move in Charizard's arsenal.
5. Flare Blitz
6. Charizard's standing grab is faster and has more range.
7. Charizard has three jumps, making his movements through the air more flexible and his landing less predictable.
8. Charizard has a higher dashing speed, which not only further contributes to the superiority of his neutral game, but also his punish game as well.

1. Neither character is reliant on fire, especially in neutral. That is so unsafe, if you verse good players you'll get punished really hard for that. If you're getting projectile camped you just walk and powershield their projectiles until you get close enough that using another projectile could get punished by a dash grab or something. Most players will perform a different action when you get that close anyway. Fire is pointless against projectiles because even if it beats them out no projectile camper is going to feel forced to approach against it lol.

2. Bowser's jab combos into grabs and dowb very easily, which KOs a lot of the cast around 80%

3. True, but Bowser has downb which kills a lot earlier and isn't that hard to land.

4. Bowser's upb is better because it's faster, can be done OOS without shield-dropping and lowers his hurtbox. It's a better move because it gets used more, meaning it's useful in more situations.

5. Bowser bomb does the same thing but kills earlier and is way safer

6. Dash and pivot grabs are way more important

7. I'll give you that

8. The dash speed is a pretty big deal, but I'm not sure he actually punishes harder than Bowser though

 

[Steeler]

I think Bowser punishes more reliably in some common situations but Zard finds more opportunities to punish.

If we want to consider "this is free as ****" punishes, Rock Smash has a lot of damage potential. It can deal 30% max and can actually combo afterward. Bowser Bomb deals 24% and doesn't need to be sweetspotted to do that damage though. It also kills earlier. In terms of fully charged smashes, Bowser fsmash kills earlier than Zard and does more damage.

If we want to talk about quicker punishes that are more important at high level play, both characters have good out of shield options. Fortress is pretty fast at 6 frames and can be maneuvered horizontally, making it incredibly difficult to cross up. It is also very safe for an up b out of shield. Can he snag the ledge when falling from on stage? I don't think he's ever been able, but it would make it amazing if he could. Fly is also a great up b out of shield but this is mainly due to its insane KO power, especially at rage percents. It also hits on frame 9, which is not ridiculously fast but very good for such a powerful move. Seriously, at max rage I have KO'd a Sheik around 70% with this move - it does wonders for Zard's ability to abuse rage and make comebacks. It has less horizontal range than Fortress though. Zard grab is 1 frame faster and has perhaps the most range for a normal standing grab. Zard damage potential from throws is 18-22% guaranteed at low to mid percents now, which is pretty ridiculous. And of course, he has a top 3 kill throw, aided immensely by platforms. Charizard also has the fastest hitbox on an up smash out of any character at 6 frames, which makes it a potent option out of shield. The hitboxes on it aren't all that great horizontally, especially since it won't link to the second hit when it hits from behind.

I want to talk about Zard jab for a bit, which is an incredible move and possibly the best jab in the game. It's frame 4 and has ridiculous range. This combined with his dash speed really affect the safe zone projectile users have by dashing in and powershielding their stuff. It also deals 12% with all three hits, which makes it one of the most damaging jabs in the game. And finally, it has had its knockback buffed. For reference, it can straight up kill lightweights like Fox when both characters are around 130%. It can also be jab canceled into grabs or even up smash and Fly, which makes for great frame traps/mixups. Having access to such a fast, large, rewarding move is really something else. Dropping shield and jabbing will only take 11 frames so it's usable as a longer ranged punish out of shield as well. Bowser has a decent jab and deals 11% but it is on the slower side of jabs. Good range though, not sure how his jab 1 compares to Charizard's. But again, the speed difference does make it slightly less usable if you have a tight window for catching the opponent.

Anyway, my final point is the fact that Charizard can punish stuff that should hit him by just armoring through it. You can think of it as a type of counter, but the difference is that the attack will always come out unless Zard is grabbed beforehand. Flare Blitz is good at hitting people who are about to land on the ground, as it will beat aerials and is active enough to beat air dodges into the ground. Rock Smash is just a great move that does a lot of damage and makes fishing for airdodges a very risky decision against Charizard. Fly also has super armor, which is fantastic at beating the falling nairs and such that some characters like to use to protect themselves. It also makes Zard's recovery pretty difficult to successfully edgeguard. All of these moves have very good reward - Blitz deals 19%, Fly deals a max of 17%, Rock Smash deals at least 14% with the main hit, up to 30%. All of these moves can KO. However, these moves are naturally unsafe on shield and pretty punishable so they must be used intelligently.

These facets of Charizard's punish game, plus great advantage, okay disadvantage (especially in comparison to other heavyweights), and good-to-great recovery are why I think Charizard is better than Bowser and a pretty decent character now after getting almost exclusively buffed since release. Definitely not an easy character to play because nothing he does is "spammable" due to his long cooldowns contributing to a general weakness of being unsafe on shield. But he has VERY good reward in a lot of advantaged and disadvantaged states by making correct decisions.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Charizard generally has worse options out of dash in neutral, so I don't feel his dash speed is that much of an asset over Bowser in neutral. It is a big deal when it comes to advantaged state though. I don't think there's all that much disagreement over their relative strengths in neutral, but it feels easier to play footsies as Bowser. I think Charizard is slightly better overall due to his superior punish game mostly, but he doesn't strictly outclass Bowser.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

It should be worth noting that charizard's advantaged stage is much more threatening than bowser's is. Both characters are certainly capable of reading their opponents and punishing if they manage to gain and advantage, but charizard has a greater number of combo strings and frame traps in his arsenal.

Bowser, unfortunately, doesn't have any significant combos outside of Jab into "X" past the very low percents.

This should be taken into consideration when comparing the character's movesets move for move.

Bowser's dash grab might be better than charizards in both speed and range, for example, but landing a grab with charizard is more rewarding.

Bowser's areals might cover more space than zard's, but zard can set up combos off of both his nair and fair.


In short,

Bowser has a stronger Neutral

Charizard has a stronger advantaged stage

(As Knee Smasher pointed out) Charizard has a better disadvantaged stage

And Charizard has arguably a better edgeguard phase as well. Both when recovering and when punishing recoveries.

 

[Lyserdon]

Charizard generally has worse options out of dash in neutral, so I don't feel his dash speed is that much of an asset over Bowser in neutral. It is a big deal when it comes to advantaged state though. I don't think there's all that much disagreement over their relative strengths in neutral, but it feels easier to play footsies as Bowser. I think Charizard is slightly better overall due to his superior punish game mostly, but he doesn't strictly outclass Bowser.

If we're comparing options out of dash, it's worth noting that Charizard's dash skid animation is so short, we've had (disconfirmed) reports of him being able to do a running fsmash.

 

[Dre89]

I agree with most of what has been said, but I'm just wondering how early can Zard kill reliably. Unlike someone like Ganondorf, Bowser doesn't need super hard reads to kill under 100. That's the main thing that makes Bowser better for me. Zard is probably better in every other aspect, but I'm not sure it makes up for the deficit in killing.

 

[Steeler]

Idk, I feel like Ganondorf kills very reliably with how strong and safe his dtilt and ftilt can be, especially with rage. That's the thing, all of the heavyweights can easily make up for percent disadvantages with rage. Charizard also does this very well with Fly being a very strong punisher (again, it will easily kill under 100 with rage). utilt and ftilt can both also kill under 100% (no rage ftilt sweetspot kills Sheik at 96% near the ledge). Bair sweetspot is strong but still not as strong as Bowser bair. Bowser seems to have more raw power but Zard has more damage potential at low to mid percents and has some survivability advantages in his armor and recovery.

 

[Davregis]

If it means anything, ZeRo has stated he thinks Charizard is mid and Bowser is bottom-tier