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Who else is nervous about Brawl potentially sucking?

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Zephyr

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Wiseguy, I just got back from 2 weeks of vacation and I'm really tired, but I'd just like to prove you wrong before I go watch fireworks and eat food.

I've had experience against DK's in tournaments, and in case you couldn't tell from my sig, I'm a Fox main. The match I had was in the second round, I had won the first. Vietgamer1021 pulled out his secret weapon, DK, and counter-picked FD. We were about evenly matched back then skill-wise, but I'm a little better than him nowadays. My response when he counter-picked?

"**** ** ** * *** ******* * ****************!!!!! ****!!!"

The match was pretty dang close, but he won that won. As a counter pick weapon, DK is deadly stuff against fast fallers. I have to go, but I'll chat more on this later if you want to.


On other matters...what's been happening, people? I've missed this thread.
 

Johnknight1

Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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Wiseguy, I just got back from 2 weeks of vacation and I'm really tired, but I'd just like to prove you wrong before I go watch fireworks and eat food.

I've had experience against DK's in tournaments, and in case you couldn't tell from my sig, I'm a Fox main. The match I had was in the second round, I had won the first. Vietgamer1021 pulled out his secret weapon, DK, and counter-picked FD. We were about evenly matched back then skill-wise, but I'm a little better than him nowadays. My response when he counter-picked?

"**** ** ** * *** ******* * ****************!!!!! ****!!!"

The match was pretty dang close, but he won that won. As a counter pick weapon, DK is deadly stuff against fast fallers. I have to go, but I'll chat more on this later if you want to.


On other matters...what's been happening, people? I've missed this thread.
Nothing Much, just Wiseguy has joined us on the Dark Side of the Brawl discussion! *evil laugh* Also, you missed Dylan pwning n00bs, n00bs flamming, and n00bs almost taking over this thread, but fortunately they are gone (or at least for the moment).

LOL, good thing I know that=I pull out my Link (me 2nd best) over my Fox (my main) vs. my friend's main=DK. Always good to know how to stop counter-picks.
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
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bum ****** with DK only proves one thing...




he would **** NYC even more if he played Fox lol
Posting in my thread and NOT GOING to the bi-weekly EHHH rick

*incredibly accusing glare* (which of course does 9999 dmg)

Seriously though man todays bi-weeklies were sad, we finally took my friends little sis and there were all these new guys there, one or two with slight skill but lacking experience and in-depth knowledge, but mostly crap...

No bam, no Joel, no Vwin, no rick, no Dmax, NOBODY!!! not even that asian kid who plays link and looks like a tourist..

boo and I couldnt score any mary jane today :(

oh well. online ssb64 here I come.
 

Johnknight1

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Apparently not. : )


The only thing that sucks right now is the fact that Brawl will not be playable at E3 this year.Nintendo really loves their hype machine.

Why don't people sacrifice children more often?
Maybe at E4 in October it will be, and if I was to go I'd tell all you my thoughts on it thus far.

HEHE, somehow I escaped without a referal, that is pretty lucky considering all the things I say, lol! NES n00b got a referal....now that is retarted!
 

Dylan_Tnga

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I made an epic post about ''balancing'' SSBB

enjoy!

____________________________________________________________________________

You should have to practice no matter what character you're using,
Ok. Well then I guess I can get my friend whos never played ssbm before, make him pick shiek and tell him to ftilt and then jump and forward air and he will get out of pools in a tournament, right?

Dude, you DO have to practice smash no matter what character you do not only to gain skills but to keep in shape. Do you have any idea how easy it is to get rusty at smash? I start to lose touch after a few days and I -always- need a 1 to 2 hour warmup before I am playing anywhere near 90 percent of my full skill and like 3 to 4 hours of playing before I am at my max.

but they need to eliminate those top/high tiers and those bottom/low tier
They. Who the heck is they? I know YOU might know this, but the way people talk about tiers around here I think a lot of people don't know this, and it shocks me.

Nintendo (le gasp) doesn't make the friggin' tiers. They make the characters, the stages, the game. Its up to them to be creative with the characters and its up to US to learn how to use them.

Famous example is the iceclimbers, no one thought they were really THAT great before. Then chudat comes along, mains them for awhile and figures out all these desynching techniques and wins tournaments.

Nintendo doesn't give a rats *** about how bowser will fare against fox in a 1v1 setting with no items. ITS OBVIOUS THAT FOX HAS THE ADVANTAGE. No matter WHAT they do, bowser is a huge friggin' target where as fox is small and fast. In a 1v1 setting, a character like fox, speedy but hard to hit is obviously top tier material.

Simultaneously, fox is among the fastest fallers. making him easy to combo which means...

You should have to practice no matter what character you're using
if you don't practice with fox, vs a good bowser, kirby, luigi, mario, ness, and ESPECIALLY donkeykong, you will get *****. GG no re, *****.

Fox is a great character but it takes a LOT of skill to sepperate yourself from the herd of fox players and trust me if you have skill then its not hard to take down a fox player.

Remember that this game should always function by malva's law. ''Don't get hit'' smash is an intellectual game about noticing the patterns in your opponents playstyle and improvising a new one based on an instintual mastery of your main characters moveset that will counter the one he is doing. It is up to YOU to create various playstyles and to master the various movesets of the characters you choose to play.

On an equal skill level, yes, fox falco marth shiek peach and falcon dominate and the higher tier has a better chance of winning, but it is not garunteed. Realize that skill level is the real factor and that like I said before in another thread, counterpicks play a WAYYY bigger role than tiers at the highest and even medium levels of competitive play. Counterpick characters and stages are what you should be worrying about, not tier lists.

P.S: I have also seen alot of balance whining out there, and quite frankly, it's starting to get irritating.
VERY irritating. This game doesn't need to be balanced and Nintendo never had the tier list in mind in the first place when they made the game.

sakurai said:
To be honest, there are a LOT of characters that offer a slightly different flavor this time around. If you think they’re all going to be the same as they have been, it’ll be rough for you.
That should be enough for you. The characters are going to change, the game is going to be different.

Nintendo has NO idea what the tier standings are going to be. They have NO idea which techniques are going to be abused and why at the top levels of play.

Sakurai's sole duty in making these GREAT games is to bring a bunch of loved characters together to clash and to make the experience fun with incredible graphics, gameplay, and awesome movesets for each character, and he includes enough techniques in both of the first two games to make them competitive at a VERY high level.

Since the game at the highest level requires you to know how to use or at least counter the advanced techniques, but that is JUST the beginning of one's journey to the top in smash. Techniques must be learned but it is the intellectual game that takes a lifetime, and there's no tier list holding you back from developing that.

The problem is that half of you dont look at smash with any ****ing respect. (not pointing any fingers, you know who Im talking about) and think that this game is about lives, damage, percentage, and tiers.

It is NOT about that. Smash is an intellectual game, it is like chess mixed with starcraft in hyperspeed. If you don't see the underlying intellectual game in smash. THIS IS WHY YOU ARE LOSING NOT BECAUSE Fox Iz Br0ken

So to recap...

Tiers exist, but they barely apply to you anyway unless you're top level. but hmmm I don't see many of the top players whining about the balance thing.

Skill is and always will be the deciding factor in a smash match.

Smash is far more intricate and complicated than you've summed it up in your mind. it is an intellectual game of massive proportions and infinate potential always ready to offer us more, if we the players seek it out.

Fox's upsmash isn't why you lose to fox. the reason you lose is because you SUCK and you should train harder and get the heck off smashboards and start practicing. No matter WHAT character you play.
 

Sandy

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I love it when people claim to use advanced techs when they're clearly bull****ting.
It can be fun for you and numerous others, but there are also many who find it more fun without those techniques, myself included. I can base my opinion on the fact that I too have spent many an hour playing with "advanced" techniques, and to me, it's just not as good. Good job we have friend lists, as unfortunately, I predict that ranked matches will involve a large amount of advanced techniques. Myself? I think I'll stick to four player, items, and using Falco, not Fox.

EDIT: I think I might take you more seriously if you'd grow up and stop whining about wavedashing and other such mindless, childish drivel.
 

Wii4Mii 99

Smash Lord
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^Well said.
Fox's upsmash isn't why you lose to fox. the reason you lose is because you SUCK and you should train harder and get the heck off smashboards and start practicing. No matter WHAT character you play.
True. lol a Pichu pro 4 stocking Ken.

The bold part was kinda harsh, though...
 

Banks

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lol u guys should stop saying you've played advanced games. it's pretty obvious you don't know how to play the game at tournament level, and have no friends to play with that are good. no one's faulting you for liking four player, but stop lying and saying "i've played with advanced tactics butpokeballz and mewtwo be betta". That's such a load.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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I love it when people claim to use advanced techs when they're clearly bull****ting.
??? huh? If you're talking about me then that makes no sense and Im not gonna argue with you.

It can be fun for you and numerous others, but there are also many who find it more fun without those techniques, myself included. I can base my opinion on the fact that I too have spent many an hour playing with "advanced" techniques, and to me, it's just not as good.
Then play how you want to. No one's going to stop you. The only thing thats gonna happen is a player like myself will probably 2 to 4 stock you. Not because of the techniques my friend but because I play the game more seriously and understand not just the techniques of the game, but the incredibly deep intellectual game behind it all in smash.

Now, Im not saying that as an insult but rather as a fact. Is this what makes you bitter? You prefer a certain style of smash but when you have to fight someone of my calibur you get totally owned? Im just curious.

Good job we have friend lists, as unfortunately, I predict that ranked matches will involve a large amount of advanced techniques. Myself? I think I'll stick to four player, items, and using Falco, not Fox.
Ok.. Then do that. Like I said who's going to stop you? and who the hell cares about online rankings, they dont mean anything. If I play brawl online Im not going to change my style just for a ranking battle, I will do the most effective strategy to win in every round based on the patterns I observe in my opponent. Plain and simple, I play to win and I do whatever it takes, be it a wavedash edgehog (OMG advanced) or a simple raptor boost to knee with falcon.

And if you think playing falco over fox makes you unique or something... LOL. :laugh:

EDIT: I think I might take you more seriously if you'd grow up and stop whining about wavedashing and other such mindless, childish drivel.
Whining? Did you even read my last post... specifically this?

Remember that this game should always function by malva's law. ''Don't get hit'' smash is an intellectual game about noticing the patterns in your opponents playstyle and improvising a new one based on an instinctual mastery of your main characters moveset that will counter the one he is doing. It is up to YOU to create various playstyles and to master the various movesets of the characters you choose to play.

Since the game at the highest level requires you to know how to use or at least counter the advanced techniques, but that is JUST the beginning of one's journey to the top in smash. Techniques must be learned but it is the intellectual game that takes a lifetime, and there's no tier list holding you back from developing that.

I'm just discussing smash on a forum as best I can. Please stop with the insults because it only makes you look like a carbon copy of all the bitter melee noobs lurking in this brawl section hoping that they'll nerf or remove everything they hold responsible for losing such as the wavedash, ''ADVANNNNCCCCEEEEDDDD'' techniques and fox, rather than blaming themselves which they should because they're pathetic scrub filth and are the scum of the earth.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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How can one tech change the outcome of a match?
I don't know, you tell me because all I said this :


I cant believe im posting this for the 3rd time in 3 posts said:
Since the game at the highest level requires you to know how to use or at least counter the advanced techniques, but that is JUST the beginning of one's journey to the top in smash. Techniques must be learned but it is the intellectual game that takes a lifetime, and there's no tier list holding you back from developing that.

I really wish you could read / understand text yourself but I dont mind explaining it to you.

This implies that the journey of a competitive smasher starts with learning to seamlessly execute techniques and continues for a lifetime of developing mindgames, and what I call the ''smash eye'' which means watching your opponent, and finding his patterns.

Yet, in higher level smash the other guy will notice the patterns you noticed and break them randomly to confuse you, otherwise known as ''mindgames, son'' and then you have to adjust to the patterns that he has just broken and find his new ones and he must do the same for you, and so on and so on and this can happen sometimes over 20 times in a single 4 stock match. No one except a smasher with experience can see this.

So one technique could never change the outcome of a match more than slightly. Personally however I need the wavedash as a part of my spacing game in melee and without it my entire playstyle that I have developed over 3 years or so falls apart. Screw that.

Edit : post 1600 w00t
 

Shai Hulud

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SandTiger

Try playing ICs without advanced techniques--i.e., wavedashing, waveshielding, wavelanding, IASA jabs, desynching, SHFFLing, chaingrabs...

Oh ****, there went their entire game. Good luck walking up to someone and fsmashing them though.
 

Red Exodus

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Nice post last page Dylan, it reminds me of a post I made a while ago. People like to hide behind tiers but that's bull****. A new Fox player won't own an experienced Bowser player [experienced enough to beat level 9s], people just need to stop looking at the tier list as a way to john their way out of everything.

I even picked up Yoshi and bowser because I don't believe a tier list is enough to limit me from being successful [I won't reach Gimpy's level, hell I won't even make the average Fox player's level [for reasons like: I don't have a gamecube]] but I plan to get to the point where I can beat my friends with him.
 

Red Exodus

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As opposed to a pro Bowser. Which wouldn't be called an experienced Bowser, he'd be a pro. On the other end of the spectrum there'd be the new Bowser player who can't own ****.
 

Evil E.

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Well umm back ontopic Brawl will suck if it doesnt have wavedashing in it..
^Point Blank Period
 

Osi

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I am a little worried it will not have the replay value that melee did. Some of the interview bits have little things like a game that is easier to play than melee, and that the speed may be slowed down (most expect due to more intense air fights).

I love how complex melee is, but some of it is due to bugs that can be used to cancel moves. These were likely left in on purpose, but that doesn't mean they will return. I am a little afraid these small jewels that gave a simple game so much complexity will not be in brawl.

The game will never suck though. It's still smash after all. A game only half as good as melee will still be a big hit.
 

HideousBeing

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Nintendo (le gasp) doesn't make the friggin' tiers. They make the characters, the stages, the game. Its up to them to be creative with the characters and its up to US to learn how to use them.

Famous example is the iceclimbers, no one thought they were really THAT great before. Then chudat comes along, mains them for awhile and figures out all these desynching techniques and wins tournaments.

Nintendo doesn't give a rats *** about how bowser will fare against fox in a 1v1 setting with no items. ITS OBVIOUS THAT FOX HAS THE ADVANTAGE. No matter WHAT they do, bowser is a huge friggin' target where as fox is small and fast. In a 1v1 setting, a character like fox, speedy but hard to hit is obviously top tier material.

VERY irritating. This game doesn't need to be balanced and Nintendo never had the tier list in mind in the first place when they made the game.

Nintendo has NO idea what the tier standings are going to be. They have NO idea which techniques are going to be abused and why at the top levels of play.

Sakurai's sole duty in making these GREAT games is to bring a bunch of loved characters together to clash and to make the experience fun with incredible graphics, gameplay, and awesome movesets for each character, and he includes enough techniques in both of the first two games to make them competitive at a VERY high level.
So true. Sakurai and his development team can't even hope to comprehend the extent to which the players of their games will explore the possibilities. Similarly to how Trojan had no intent on making ultimate water baloons when they put their famous assemly line into production.

Counterpick characters and stages are what you should be worrying about, not tier lists.
I agree.

It is NOT about that. Smash is an intellectual game, it is like chess mixed with starcraft in hyperspeed. If you don't see the underlying intellectual game in smash. THIS IS WHY YOU ARE LOSING NOT BECAUSE Fox Iz Br0ken.
Bolded is sig material FTW.
Fox's upsmash isn't why you lose to fox. the reason you lose is because you SUCK and you should train harder and get the heck off smashboards and start practicing. No matter WHAT character you play.
More sig material!

Thanks for a good read Dylan! This should be published.

Does everyone realize how much WIN there is in Dylan's little rant?
 

Dylan_Tnga

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Thanks man

btw everyone I got kicked outta pp-s.

Then I angrily went online and played a pubbie and 4 stocked him with efficiency. Im kind of pissed off about this though. And kind of humbled again, perhaps its time to just shut up and practice.
 

xeno

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Dude, I've been saying "Don't miss, don't get hit" for all my videogames for years.. FTW.
And to quote Marathon: "Never stop firing, never stop running" -- never stop attacking, never stop evading!

"The art of war is simple -- know where you enemy is".
BTW I played Ken in a tourney a few weeks ago.. he was incredible. Ironically, he didn't tech much, but I don't think he has much practice :D. Anyways, I'm not here just to brag about playing a good player. What was interesting about playing him is, at its high(er) levels of play, smash is very offensive.. and escape and recovery are illusions.

True tier lists are made of players (skill), not characters. ;)
 

Linari Sabre

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I agree^

There is no such thing as a tier list it directly takes practice and skill of becoming the best

But what I dont get is how in the world that being the best is playing 1 vs 1 at tournies why do tournies neglect FFAs with items on tell me why oh wait because its cheap *whines* if you cant beat a noob in that how are you the best if you can beat at theyre own game cmon tell me why
 

Rash

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Im kind of pissed off about this though. And kind of humbled again, perhaps its time to just shut up and practice.
What I think you should do is start practicing not using the wavedash. I know it's very important to your spacing and all, but what do you have to lose by improving your non-wavedash game? Not only will you be able to improve yourself beyond the point of relying on the WD for your A-game, but you'll also be setting yourself up just in case Brawl throws you a curveball.

Right now you're worried about Brawl not including the WD, because that technique is so important. Yet, I don't see a reason not to try to work out of it a little bit so that when the new Smash comes out you'll be prepared for whatever adjustments you have to make.

Honestly, I will never think it to be logical to remove WD from the game, because I can't really see there not being an exploit of airdodging to the ground. But, a little preparation couldn't hurt, right?
 

Linari Sabre

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UGH why not compete this means that another player going down the drain for me to lose to and learn from them and try again

I dont see that why would someone stop competing because of this
 

Red Exodus

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Well it's possible he could change his mind but I don't think the odds are very high. Personally I'm a little pissed that I found this site so late. I never got time to perfect any of these techniques but I can imagine how it feels to learn and integrate something into your game only to have it taken out when a sequel comes along.
 

xeno

Smash Ace
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A lot of our knowledge (skill) won't carry over to Brawl.
Even IF Wavedashing is in the game, all you'll know when you first turn it on is that it can be used for spacing. But character vs character spacing is going to be different.. moves will be different, combos won't be the same etc. So, WD or not, it's a new game with the same basic mechanics but different dynamics (:0)

I'd like to add of course, that wavedashing is completely, totally awesome.

Also, I think FFA tourneys is a brilliant idea. I've been met with a few "yeah, that'd be cool but we all play 1v1"s here in Sydney.. ffa in any "deathmatch" games is great.

Stance on items: They are cool. They are unpredictable in a bad way -- pure chance can give a player a significant advantage (unless each item has a disadvantage.. but pokeballs? ray guns? nope..). I wouldn't mind if the items changed the character to be better, but it wasn't a large modification. Invincibility, mushrooms.. it's really "cool" but it's lame if you're on the other end. Sort of like those unstoppable combos in other fighting games..
 

Adi

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Items don't help anyone except for the player who would have normally lost the match, that is why they reduce the amount of skill needed in a match.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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What I think you should do is start practicing not using the wavedash. I know it's very important to your spacing and all, but what do you have to lose by improving your non-wavedash game? Not only will you be able to improve yourself beyond the point of relying on the WD for your A-game, but you'll also be setting yourself up just in case Brawl throws you a curveball.
Dude I was talking about ssb64. .. I .. uh don't wavedash in ssb64.

As for your idea relevant to ssbm?

I mean no offense to you man but that is the -dumbest- suggestion I've ever gotten on this forum.

Right now you're worried about Brawl not including the WD, because that technique is so important. Yet, I don't see a reason not to try to work out of it a little bit so that when the new Smash comes out you'll be prepared for whatever adjustments you have to make.
Or I could just play capt falcon. Yeah that sounds like a plan. Dude if theres no wavedashing in brawl, im not playing it. Case closed. theres a slight chance Ill just play captain falcon but I highly doubt it.

Honestly, I will never think it to be logical to remove WD from the game, because I can't really see there not being an exploit of airdodging to the ground. But, a little preparation couldn't hurt, right?
Right. But I can't not wavedash in ssbm. It's a habit. If I conciously stop doing it, my spacing falls apart and I get 4 stocked

Theres nothing I hate more than losing by more than 2 stocks. So I really doubt Ill be taking your suggestion anytime soon.

Dont want to sound rude, just honnest. Peace :)
 

Rash

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It's not a dumb suggestion at all, in my mind. If anything, it's just a matter of you being the most interesting exception to the rules that form my logical structure. You're an enigma, to me.
 

Darc

Smash Rookie
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Oct 1, 2006
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i just don't want them taking out the playability of the c-stick. Without the c-stick imma have to learn to shfflc up-airs with the control stick ;_;
 

psicicle

Smash Ace
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heh, I do both methods anyway, but Im sure you can use c-stick for that kind of stuff because you can map the buttons
 

Adi

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Hopefully they let you do it for 1P mode (espicially training!) too, that way it'll also encourage new players to use the C-stick in Vs. mode.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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Meh im gonna put some vids up, youll see that I talk about the WD here but its not the only thing I do. Id say its 1 percent of my total metagame so far. I just use it when needed. Thats it. Ok? Without it there are certain things I cant do IE grab out of a shine, edgehog quickily, recover with wavedash to an offensive move... the list goes on. I use it for what its good for, Im an experienced player, drop it.
 
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