Whiffy Kong: The moves that have less range than they appear

[Man Li Gi]

After extensive playing of DK online and with friends, I'm certain that Sakurai deleted hitboxes that were extremely close to his hurttboxes. I will soon be uploading videos (red meaning there is a video) highlighting each case (maybe not Dtilt because of the wealth of replays I have already, there was precisely one game where it whiffed, and going through ALL of them to find one game shall be a pain, but that's still one to many). Here are the moves that whiff and where they whiff:

Jab: A small or ducking or someone who ADed in front of DK, but not touching the fist.

Spoiler

Ftilt: A small or ducking or someone who ADed in front of DK, touching around the shoulder area. This one is absurd as his entire arm should be a hitbox. There's no point of having a long range tilt that also can't hit up close.

Spoiler

Utilt: This one takes a little more finesse to dodge, but it's possible. A low opponent has to be real close and low to DK's shoulder.

Spoiler

Dtilt: Right on DK or right in front of him.

Spoiler

Fsmash: We all know this one, but IT'S WHEN THEY ARE TOUCHING DK or HIS SHOULDER! Sakurai, why?

Giant Punch: Low and in the shoulder of DK.

Spoiler

Uair: This may be me grasping at straws, but the butt hitbox is not there anymore.

Spoiler

I just wanted this thread to exist so people know how Sakurai messed with DK. If there are more, please tell me and I'll add them to the list. If you can provide a video showing this, that would be fine too.

The more and more I play, the more I realize that some characters were lackadaisically put together in this game and how great the DK Brawl hitboxes/damage/speed/power were. *sniffles*

This credit goes to Lavani explaining exactly why this happens:
Plausibly, but not necessarily. Anything that whiffs against G&W for Z-axis reasons would either whiff against everyone, or whiff because he's thin. But that isn't what The Flat Zone Effect™ is about.

So, using DK's ftilt as an example. Parts of Robin's body are further in the foreground during her idle animation (facing left), and DK's ftilt comes from the background (facing right). As a result, you can get this at certain positions:

On flat stages, you have no Z axis (all characters are 2D, like G&W). DK being flattened means his arm is hitting straight forward, and Robin being flattened means she isn't in the foreground, so you get a clean hit always:

It's also worth noting that, since DK's arm into the background/foreground, ftilt probably keeps more active frames in front of him on flat stages than usual, unless the active frames end before the arm sweep (I'm not well-versed in this character, sorry!

Fsmash's blindspot is clearly intentional though; its hitboxes aren't tied to bones, have no Z-axis displacement, and are all distanced from DK's body noticeably. I think the intent is that the clap does the damage and nothing else.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

I'll never understand was Sakurai made these changes. Especially the Fsmash one.

 

[Metalbro]

IIRC, In one of the pictures of the day. He mentioned that he had to nerf DK because he felt that he was too strong.

 

[Big O]

Yeah a lot of the random hitbox changes have been nerfs overall. The only ones that really bother me are Fsmash, Dsmash, Uair, and Punch.

Fsmash gap is silly and it also lost some reach.

Dsmash can't hit people above you anymore due to the startup nerf.

Uair used to be really good at hitting people in front of you and protecting you vs PKT from a slight angle below you. Now it hits higher instead, so you can't really cover yourself from that angle anymore. The new animation is harder to trade with too.

Punch sourspot happens way more often now too for w/e reason which is extremely annoying.

 

[Man Li Gi]

As much as I love DK, Sakurai is making me hate him. I respected/loved DK for his power (which is nerfed in this game big time), range (gaps in hitboxes?) and mobility. The only thing that seems reminiscent of that is his mobility. Otherwise, Sakurai is testing my patience.

 

[meleebrawler]

As much as I love DK, Sakurai is making me hate him. I respected/loved DK for his power (which is nerfed in this game big time), range (gaps in hitboxes?) and mobility. The only thing that seems reminiscent of that is his mobility. Otherwise, Sakurai is testing my patience.

He's still not as weak as Melee DK.

The reason his power is not as high as other heavies
is precisely because of his mobility and moves
that are not as sluggish as other heavies.
Can anyone name a move from a heavy that's as fast
as DK's Dtilt that isn't a jab?

All of these "blind spots" seem to be in very
close to DK, a situation you don't want to be in.
Answer? Grab, use Spinning Kong or just get away.

 

[Man Li Gi]

He's still not as weak as Melee DK.

The reason his power is not as high as other heavies
is precisely because of his mobility and moves
that are not as sluggish as other heavies.
Can anyone name a move from a heavy that's as fast
as DK's Dtilt that isn't a jab?

All of these "blind spots" seem to be in very
close to DK, a situation you don't want to be in.
Answer? Grab, use Spinning Kong or just get away.

Considering that spacing is in element DK mains keep in mind, but can ultimately be trumped by top players, those answers are beyond foolish (not trying to be rude about it). DK's grab is horrendously slow, and shallow ranged while Spinning Kong is unsafe, slow, and not that great knockback and damage. While I do use those tools (grab) to alleviate the problem, it's unnecessary thing that needs to go. Even grab has the same problem. Also when I was referring to power, I was talking about his smashes, uair, bair. Those were his killing tools in previous iterations and now even harder reads are needed just for a kill since the nerf in power was atrocious. His mobility is a trade off for the lack of projectile and large hurtbox and easy to juggle and in general, struggles against people with disjoints/better range. In fact, he still gets bopped by KD3.

Anyway, I believe Ganon's usmash (factoring the IASA) is almost as fast.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

After finally receiving my own gamecube adapter, I've finally started playing smash for wii U as much as I could. I have found all of these issues myself after EXTENSIVE use of DK, my favorite player since smash 64 (of which I was probably the most adept DK user of all time, I wish I had just kept playing the 64 version so I could give Isai a run for his money!! You guys should see the play history on the stats page, it is quite large, having played smash 64 24/7 until SSBM came out, but I'm digressing). Of course I ignored DK in Melee because of how bad he was there, but when brawl came out DK was actually a usable character and I thought myself as one of the best DK users although I did not participate in tournaments (I watched Will a lot, and no offense to him but I thought I was better). The WII U version simply does not compare, these sorts of issues seem like ones you can avoid by changing what it is one does, but when you hit those higher tier characters or characters DK simply sucks against (like ZSS) it becomes very difficult to continue using him all the time as a viable character. Even in brawl I thought I could fight against some of the best metaknights and at least make it a close match; in sm4sh I have become increasingly disillusioned vs many different characters due to the lack of range in his smash moves, as a limited example. The only good thing to counteract this is that other characters' moves have also been nerfed somewhat. However, I think unlike in brawl or melee, slower characters or characters with movesets that are weaker than your average character still have a chance of winning vs. the faster characters as long as you use the full range of their moves. In past games it was impossible to do a lot of the spikes, and in sm4sh I think they have become easier to use. Ganondorf for example I find much more viable than he was in Brawl, probably on par with where he was in Melee, maybe better. Of course he wasn't slow per say in Melee, just slow compared to OP characters.

The only thing I can offer to DK users is that they use another character or two to round out a list capable of taking on anyone. DK simply wasn't made to fight everyone. If there is one thing I will blame Sakurai for, it's for focusing too much on characters from previous smash games and doing whatever he could to nerf them. He nerfed DK from 64 (even if he buffed up uair) into melee, buffed him again in brawl, and now nerfed him inexplicably. Did the same thing to my other main, Ganondorf, who he EXTENSIVELY nerfed from Melee to Brawl, and while his moves seem the same in sm4sh, he is actually better given the new ledge mechanics and other small things he's done that has in general made slower characters more viable, even if you don't see them use in tournaments yet). The biggest thing that I must say I dislike, despite the issues outlined here, is the fact that it takes forever to charge your punch up if you keep stopping the charge. It actually takes away one charge every time you stop the charge before completion, which is why one must charge it up in 2 or 3 charges to even be able to use it in battle.

 

[Man Li Gi]

After finally receiving my own gamecube adapter, I've finally started playing smash for wii U as much as I could. I have found all of these issues myself after EXTENSIVE use of DK, my favorite player since smash 64 (of which I was probably the most adept DK user of all time, I wish I had just kept playing the 64 version so I could give Isai a run for his money!! You guys should see the play history on the stats page, it is quite large, having played smash 64 24/7 until SSBM came out, but I'm digressing). Of course I ignored DK in Melee because of how bad he was there, but when brawl came out DK was actually a usable character and I thought myself as one of the best DK users although I did not participate in tournaments (I watched Will a lot, and no offense to him but I thought I was better). The WII U version simply does not compare, these sorts of issues seem like ones you can avoid by changing what it is one does, but when you hit those higher tier characters or characters DK simply sucks against (like ZSS) it becomes very difficult to continue using him all the time as a viable character. Even in brawl I thought I could fight against some of the best metaknights and at least make it a close match; in sm4sh I have become increasingly disillusioned vs many different characters due to the lack of range in his smash moves, as a limited example. The only good thing to counteract this is that other characters' moves have also been nerfed somewhat. However, I think unlike in brawl or melee, slower characters or characters with movesets that are weaker than your average character still have a chance of winning vs. the faster characters as long as you use the full range of their moves. In past games it was impossible to do a lot of the spikes, and in sm4sh I think they have become easier to use. Ganondorf for example I find much more viable than he was in Brawl, probably on par with where he was in Melee, maybe better. Of course he wasn't slow per say in Melee, just slow compared to OP characters.

The only thing I can offer to DK users is that they use another character or two to round out a list capable of taking on anyone. DK simply wasn't made to fight everyone. If there is one thing I will blame Sakurai for, it's for focusing too much on characters from previous smash games and doing whatever he could to nerf them. He nerfed DK from 64 (even if he buffed up uair) into melee, buffed him again in brawl, and now nerfed him inexplicably. Did the same thing to my other main, Ganondorf, who he EXTENSIVELY nerfed from Melee to Brawl, and while his moves seem the same in sm4sh, he is actually better given the new ledge mechanics and other small things he's done that has in general made slower characters more viable, even if you don't see them use in tournaments yet). The biggest thing that I must say I dislike, despite the issues outlined here, is the fact that it takes forever to charge your punch up if you keep stopping the charge. It actually takes away one charge every time you stop the charge before completion, which is why one must charge it up in 2 or 3 charges to even be able to use it in battle.

I have a vid of me fully charging the punch and even smoke indicating that it charged to completion to then turn around and become no charge and the punch sour spot is laughably stupid no as well as having a smaller if not gone shoulder hitbox. I think I'll make separate thread for it.

 

[meleebrawler]

You made a thread about weird hitbox whiffs and
then want to make another separate thread for one particular example?

 

[Man Li Gi]

You made a thread about weird hitbox whiffs and
then want to make another separate thread for one particular example?

No, but make a thread of the silliness of Giant Punch in this game. I can provide a couple examples, but as the meta develops, there will be more things discovered. There are more things weird about the Punch in this game. Even if it's one particular example, that's one too many. Be happy you (Mega Man) now have a new tech in Jump Cancel Glide Toss bro.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I just don't bother with the giant punch. I occasionally wind it up when I have the chance, but I feel it has the most use when recovering. I find it's too easy to read and the threat of the giant punch is better than the giant punch.

Is it still possible to combo into it from a side b?

 

[Man Li Gi]

I just don't bother with the giant punch. I occasionally wind it up when I have the chance, but I feel it has the most use when recovering. I find it's too easy to read and the threat of the giant punch is better than the giant punch.

Is it still possible to combo into it from a side b?

The fear is a real factor I use against people. I decided to not make a separate thread on it, but just to add it here. Also, there will be a vid soon showing a missed Dtilt as I faced it about a week ago....

I want to upload it when it happens in a match not in training as many things can get exposed in training.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Added uair and dtilt.

 

[Lavani]

Hello DK mains, quoting myself from a different thread with some information that may be relevant to your issues:

I think a lot of these (not fsmash) are due to Z-axis shenanigans, which also screw over a lot of other characters. Like with Greninja, I noticed several of his attacks (mainly fsmash/fair) whiffing when he was facing right, mostly against opponents facing left. Eventually I had the idea to pause and turn the camera and noticed this:

Spoiler

Greninja's arm goes behind Robin facing right, and through her facing left.

Playing on stages such as Flat Zone Ω makes the characters flat and fixes this issue. Trying DK there, I hit 35 out of 35 ftilts pointblank after I'd whiffed a bunch against Robin from both sides on Battlefield.

It applies to more characters too, I recall mentions of Shulk's ftilt whiffing Sheik for similar reasons. Keeping omega versions of "2D" stages in mind would be beneficial for characters affected by this.

 

[TastyCarcass]

Interesting, I might start counter picking flat zone omega!

 

[Diddy Kong]

As much as I love DK, Sakurai is making me hate him. I respected/loved DK for his power (which is nerfed in this game big time), range (gaps in hitboxes?) and mobility. The only thing that seems reminiscent of that is his mobility. Otherwise, Sakurai is testing my patience.

I loved Brawl DK a great deal man, played him as much as Diddy cause his POWER was just so awesome. Nobody could finish a stock as fast as DK. Real beastly. But after playing DK in this game... I felt so dissapointed. Everything seems less powerful, except Headbut. I miss his Brawl F Air to. What the hell did they do to that move? Also D Smash... f Smash... All rather unsafe moves now.

 

[etecoon]

Smashes were always unsafe, but yeah Sakurai pretty much just nerfed things at random for this game, even abysmally unusable characters like Ganondorf got notable nerfs. Power changes are one thing but the hitboxes are just dumb, I don't want to watch my arm physically go through Jigglypuff and she doesn't get hit, this isn't Morrowind.

 

[meleebrawler]

Interesting, I might start counter picking flat zone omega!

Does this mean Game & Watch gets hit by "blind spots" at all times?

 

[TastyCarcass]

Does this mean Game & Watch gets hit by "blind spots" at all times?

No. From what I understand, it's that the hitboxes on the attack are all put onto the same value of the z axis, making them more likely to hit. Despite being a 2D game, the hitboxes and hurtboxes are 3D

 

[dbwithlemon]

That's a fantastic find, and a terrible issue, what's the point of them being 3D?

 

[Brickbox]

We need to make enough of a ruckus so that this gets updated. This is stupid and needs fixed, but great find with flat-zone, I always liked that stage. I guess if you ever are going to go FD, always go flat zone.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I think Duck Hunt is a really good stage for DK anyway. Easy to land because of the trees and the dog can ruin your opponent's combos.

 

[Dsull]

EDIT:
ok...it totally put my post in a different thread wth...

 

[Lavani]

Week-late reply:

Does this mean Game & Watch gets hit by "blind spots" at all times?

Plausibly, but not necessarily. Anything that whiffs against G&W for Z-axis reasons would either whiff against everyone, or whiff because he's thin. But that isn't what The Flat Zone Effect™ is about.

So, using DK's ftilt as an example. Parts of Robin's body are further in the foreground during her idle animation (facing left), and DK's ftilt comes from the background (facing right). As a result, you can get this at certain positions:

On flat stages, you have no Z axis (all characters are 2D, like G&W). DK being flattened means his arm is hitting straight forward, and Robin being flattened means she isn't in the foreground, so you get a clean hit always:

It's also worth noting that, since DK's arm sweeps into the background/foreground, ftilt probably keeps more active frames in front of him on flat stages than usual, unless the active frames end before the arm sweep (I'm not well-versed in this character, sorry!)

Fsmash's blindspot is clearly intentional though; its hitboxes aren't tied to bones, have no Z-axis displacement, and are all distanced from DK's body noticeably. I think the intent is that the clap does the damage and nothing else.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Week-late reply:


Plausibly, but not necessarily. Anything that whiffs against G&W for Z-axis reasons would either whiff against everyone, or whiff because he's thin. But that isn't what The Flat Zone Effect™ is about.

So, using DK's ftilt as an example. Parts of Robin's body are further in the foreground during her idle animation (facing left), and DK's ftilt comes from the background (facing right). As a result, you can get this at certain positions:

On flat stages, you have no Z axis (all characters are 2D, like G&W). DK being flattened means his arm is hitting straight forward, and Robin being flattened means she isn't in the foreground, so you get a clean hit always:

It's also worth noting that, since DK's arm sweeps into the background/foreground, ftilt probably keeps more active frames in front of him on flat stages than usual, unless the active frames end before the arm sweep (I'm not well-versed in this character, sorry!

Fsmash's blindspot is clearly intentional though; its hitboxes aren't tied to bones, have no Z-axis displacement, and are all distanced from DK's body noticeably. I think the intent is that the clap does the damage and nothing else.

Imma add your stuff to the front post. Thanks Lavani.

 

[dahuterschuter]

I'm just most annoyed about arms not having hitboxes. It makes spacing for each DK move ridiculously precise when there is very limited spacing options. Like the hitboxes on Usmash or Dsmash, the entire motion of the arms should hit or scoop, and the Ftilt should at least hit to the elbow.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm just most annoyed about arms not having hitboxes. It makes spacing for each DK move ridiculously precise when there is very limited spacing options. Like the hitboxes on Usmash or Dsmash, the entire motion of the arms should hit or scoop, and the Ftilt should at least hit to the elbow.

If Usmash hit with the whole arc it would eclipse Dsmash and Utilt. And it's always been like that.

Side note I think Pac-Land and Duck Hunt stages also give 2d sprites.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'm just most annoyed about arms not having hitboxes. It makes spacing for each DK move ridiculously precise when there is very limited spacing options. Like the hitboxes on Usmash or Dsmash, the entire motion of the arms should hit or scoop, and the Ftilt should at least hit to the elbow.

I wish Dsmash had the range it once did (no longer hits above DK, hits around 75% the range it did). I want that Usmash buff, but with all these non DK mains thinking DK has been buffed (DK mains know otherwise), that isn't happen until the meta has staled.

If Usmash hit with the whole arc it would eclipse Dsmash and Utilt. And it's always been like that.

Side note I think Pac-Land and Duck Hunt stages also give 2d sprites.

Considering that Dsmash hits notably later and not with the precise hit boxes present in the game currently (had some generous leeway in hit box placement). I do sort of agree with your assessment with eclipsing the Utilt , but considering Utilt has horrendous front range, Usamsh is sufficient, but notably slower option. In the end, Utilt would still have more utilities than Usmash.

 

[itsaxelol]

Can we give this some more attention please? This is a huge issue and no one knows about it. Im tired of losing from missing people at pivotal times. This will never be fixed with this current level of awareness

 

[Man Li Gi]

Can we give this some more attention please? This is a huge issue and no one knows about it. Im tired of losing from missing people at pivotal times. This will never be fixed with this current level of awareness

I was thinking the same thing. Should I just link it to whatever general competitive thread I see/participate in? Since DK isn't a popular character, we have to bring it up ourselves.

 

[itsaxelol]

yea, this needs to be on other non character specific forums. make it a competitive thread and ask if any other characters have this. someone said greninja has some issues too, right?

in theory, every character will have this problem, no?

 

[Man Li Gi]

yea, this needs to be on other non character specific forums. make it a competitive thread and ask if any other characters have this. someone said greninja has some issues too, right?

in theory, every character will have this problem, no?

Sure, when I'm not in class or doing homework or working, I could simply move it or just copy it. Robin, Greninja , Bowser Jr are a few who have this problem.

 

[itsaxelol]

dont want to steal your thunder and move it myself so ill patiently wait

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yeah this needs more attention, if there is to be any hope for a patch. I used DK as a secondary in brawl and I notice all these whiffs when I play him now - the f-tilt most of all, insane. I wonder hoe many DKs have died as a result...

 

[Man Li Gi]

Yeah this needs more attention, if there is to be any hope for a patch. I used DK as a secondary in brawl and I notice all these whiffs when I play him now - the f-tilt most of all, insane. I wonder hoe many DKs have died as a result...

*Almost every DK main collectively raises hand*

 

[RomanceDawn]

We all have Wii U's and 3DS's. We need to take pictures of exactly the problem and just Yeah each other's posts. I think that's the first step.

Didn't MetaKnight have the same issue but after one of the patches they just made his animation slashes shorter to match with the actual hit box?

 

[itsaxelol]

did you post this anywhere TC?

 

[Man Li Gi]

We all have Wii U's and 3DS's. We need to take pictures of exactly the problem and just Yeah each other's posts. I think that's the first step.

Didn't MetaKnight have the same issue but after one of the patches they just made his animation slashes shorter to match with the actual hit box?

did you post this anywhere TC?

Sorry guys for the late response. I posted this in the Competitive discussion as "Too close for (Dis)Comfort). Find the thread and possibly bump it to get back on top. I don't wanna double post. The pic idea is pretty good, just that my wii u is at home and no else cares about DK enough to post it. When I get back, I'm gonna post and I want yall to yeah, or you guys could do it yourself.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Added Giant Punch.