Which is snake´s fastest aerial??

[killbull]

It´s just to improve my DI with snake

If someone could help me with DI snake´s videos I would love that!!


THX!!!!!!

 

[napZzz]

I think its bair, followed by air dodge, then uair when it comes to momentum canceling in terms of speed or something

*waits for susa*

 

[SuSa]

Snake is "weird" in that his aerials altar his hitbox, so seemingly "better" options aren't always better. (An argument I get with many people)

Vertically you want to use bair. Fastfall ONLY if you feel you will die otherwise. (Rich taught me the oh-so- important factor of saving that fastfall) and ONLY if you can safely end the bair without getting hit by your opponent again. (Sometimes doing nothing or air dodging is best) - the only time you really need to use bair is pretty rare actually. I just do it out of habit but I don't think it's actually... "needed".

Horizontally I find up air works better due to how it alters your hurtboxes. Airdodge is technically the better choice.... but I find I live more using up air. Fast falling will only make you more likely to die (from my experiences) or at least set you up in a worse position to recover.

I also thought we had a frame data thread.

 

[phi1ny3]

iirc the technical "best" horizontally for snake is air dodge. Michael Hey did a good bit on momentum canceling for every character.

 

[SuSa]

And from over a year of playing I'm either DI'ing improperly or up air is ever-so-slightly better.

 

[phi1ny3]

it's easier b/c you get an easier range of motion, like if you need to FF (not good in all/most horizontal scenarios, mind you), FF an aerial esp. when using the cstick is much easier than inputting a FF AD when you need it.

That and I'm a shameless fan of Michael because he's awesome and pretty much did the work of half the smash lab by himself (even figured out the specific and most detailed formula for aura).

 

[Kuro~]

so uh in conculsion uair horizontal bair vertical? why ally use to do different ****....

 

[phi1ny3]

Michael's collection of collaboration of him + innocentroads and some others
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=34746

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=4377
Momentum cancel info

list of moves for each character in ending duration from hitstun:
http://www.geocities.jp/kuso_dwi_lovers/list.html

mind you most of this stuff is translated so there's going to be some differences in terminology lol.

Edit: swordgard's thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969

lots of people are fairly misinformed about momentum canceling, but at the same time it's understandable, there's a loooooot of elements to it.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

SuSa, if you are not going to fastfall a bair for vertical momentum cancel it would be better to not do anything, as you will not stop any momentum just by using a move. I could be wrong though, as fair *may* give a little forward momentum.

 

[SuSa]

Bair changes your hitbox, aligning it with the blast zone.

I think it's something stupid like an extra 2% of survival from my testing.

Momentum cancelling is stupid and complicated and there is like 5 different ways to do it for Snake. =P

 

[napZzz]

I'm lazy and I just dair most of the time for the auto fastfall when i'm unsure of living

otherwise I use bair vertically and air dodge horizontally

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah there's pretty much practical momentum canceling and pro momentum canceling

 

[napZzz]

I dont even know when to fastfall during DI without just using dair on the c stick to auto matically do it, never asked/read how

 

[etecoon]

uair actually makes you live a little longer than bair vs vertical KB for some reason

it makes no ****ing sense

but that's what I got from testing it

 

[JRC LSS]

Airdodge is the best for horizontal momentum cancelling because you can airdodge sooner than you can use an aerial. It also is shorter in duration than any of his aerials so you can jump the soonest using an airdodge.
As for vertical momentum cancelling, from what I've tested, it doesn't matter what aerial you use. Theoretically bair would be the best because it would flatten his hurtbox, but again, I didn't notice any change when I tested. I use dair because it's the easiest.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I dont even know when to fastfall during DI without just using dair on the c stick to auto matically do it, never asked/read how

Not to mention you sometimes get hilarious KOs because the opponent tries to jump up to hit you, and ends up running into the last hit of Dair

 

[phi1ny3]

I've had that happen in friendlies before.

My least favorite about DIing with bair is how some throws turn you around so you accidentally fair instead, which frankly sucks

 

[napZzz]

Not to mention you sometimes get hilarious KOs because the opponent tries to jump up to hit you, and ends up running into the last hit of Dair

I've won tourny sets because of this, no joke

mk's who were already up there trying to chase me have felt the wrath of my foot and its deceptively large hitbox...sort of

 

[Reyney]

^
aww and ive died multiple times because of this..
using dair for momentum canceling is just a BAD habit, which gets punished by good mk's a lot.
uair for vertical and airdodge for horizontal ftw.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Has anyone tested fair? It seems that fair could boost you forward a little bit which may help horizontal di if it does.

 

[MoNrA.1]

Actually i use Bair, Dair and Uair

Fox's Upsmash : use Bair
MK's Dsmash : use Uair
C4 explote: Dair or Bair
Snake's Uptilt: Bair not Dair

i love Dair cuz is more easy, but i hate wait for the four atacks.
On Pika's MU use Uair as momentum canceliing always because the Pika's Thunder could kill you while you re doing ur momentum canceling

 

[SuSa]

In Pika matchup never MC unless you know for certain you'd die without it.

Because Pika's Thunder should always kill you if you don't.

It's the ONE matchup where you have to forget everything you know about proper DI.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Uair seems to work better for horizontal survival because Snake's body turns clockwise making his hurtbox go along with it.

Actually sensible when you get right down to it.

Just look at the GIFS and think about the fact that if a character's hurtbox touches a lateral blast zone, it means death.

Pity Uair doesn't have usable IASA frames though.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I still never understood IASA frames. If it is the first frame another move can cancel the move into, why not simple call the IASA frame the point where lag ends for the move since you can technically do something else by then. Anything after that point is not really 'lag', it would merely be an animation that has no purpose.

If Snake's Dtilt has IASA on 35, why not just say it lasts for a total of 34 frames. The remainig frames up until frame 43 are counted as part of the animation, but those frame are useless to know about.

 

[SuSa]

Because frame data deals with animations. IASA cuts the animation short.

 

[phi1ny3]

Not to mention that performing a move on IASA can give notable difference (such as how Marth/MK creep along the ground with dtilt, or how some moves won't go towards move decay if you use the second bit in IASA), not to mention some IASA is messed up, such as Snake bair iirc.

 

[JRC LSS]

Uair seems to work better for horizontal survival because Snake's body turns clockwise making his hurtbox go along with it.

Actually sensible when you get right down to it.

Just look at the GIFS and think about the fact that if a character's hurtbox touches a lateral blast zone, it means death.

Pity Uair doesn't have usable IASA frames though.

Snake's hurtbox alignment is irrelevant when it comes to horizontal momentum cancelling because the move needs to end before you can start cancelling your momentum. What you said might make sense if the aerial was what was actually stopping your momentum, but it's not, it's the jump that does it. Airdodge is faster than any aerial (and you can do it sooner than any aerial), so it allows you to jump the soonest and cancel your momentum. I don't understand why not everyone does this because using airdodge instead of bair can let you live up to about five percent longer. Also, fair does nothing special to let you stop your momentum. It's worse than bair and uair.

 

[Attila_]

if you're di-ing most things up like you're supposed to, bair/uair are almost always better than airdodge, due to intra-fastfalling.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Snake's hurtbox alignment is irrelevant when it comes to horizontal momentum cancelling because the move needs to end before you can start cancelling your momentum. What you said might make sense if the aerial was what was actually stopping your momentum, but it's not, it's the jump that does it. Airdodge is faster than any aerial (and you can do it sooner than any aerial), so it allows you to jump the soonest and cancel your momentum. I don't understand why not everyone does this because using airdodge instead of bair can let you live up to about five percent longer. Also, fair does nothing special to let you stop your momentum. It's worse than bair and uair.

From what I know, this post is wrong with some bits of truth.

The main thing about using an aerial is that you are able to fast fall it. For some reason, if you fast fall an aerial, even with horizontal momentum, you live longer. Since fast falling will happen the moment you can do an aerial, it does not really matter which aerial you use. The idea is that fastest aerial will end faster allowing you to use the 2nd jump, and it allows you to react faster from say being chased like what happens a lot when snake and his opponent both explode. Also, airdodge ends only 3 frames faster than bair, and 8 frames faster than Uair. With the logic behind fast falling, how soon a move ends, and alignment of hitbox, it seems there is minimal difference between using airdodge -> 2nd jump, compared to aerial -> fastfall -> 2nd jump.

I cite frame data and SuSa's words on this.

 

[JRC LSS]

From what I know, this post is wrong with some bits of truth.

The main thing about using an aerial is that you are able to fast fall it. For some reason, if you fast fall an aerial, even with horizontal momentum, you live longer. Since fast falling will happen the moment you can do an aerial, it does not really matter which aerial you use. The idea is that fastest aerial will end faster allowing you to use the 2nd jump, and it allows you to react faster from say being chased like what happens a lot when snake and his opponent both explode. Also, airdodge ends only 3 frames faster than bair, and 8 frames faster than Uair. With the logic behind fast falling, how soon a move ends, and alignment of hitbox, it seems there is minimal difference between using airdodge -> 2nd jump, compared to aerial -> fastfall -> 2nd jump.

I cite frame data and SuSa's words on this.

From what I've noticed experimentally, fastfalling is helpful only for vertical momentum cancelling. While airdodge is only 3 frames shorter in duration than bair, you didn't take into account that you can airdodge sooner than bair after being hit. I just did some testing for horizontal momentum cancelling in training mode at 1/4 speed. The numbers are the highest percentages that Snake survived at. I didn't DI for any of these tests.

Fox dsmash at the left edge of FD, hitting Snake right (low trajectory, long distance)
Holding left, mashing jump: 201
Bair: 208
Bair fastfall: 208
Uair: 206
Uair fastfall: 206
Airdodge: 213

Fox dsmash on left edge of FD, hitting Snake left (low trajectory, short distance)
Holding right, mashing jump: 108
Bair: 104
Bair fastfall: 104
Uair: 104
Uair fastfall: 104
Airdodge: 112

DK fsmash on left edge of FD, hitting Snake right (higher trajectory, long distance)
Holding left, mashing jump: 101
Bair: 106
Bair fastfall: 106
Uair: 105
Uair fastfall: 105
Airdodge: 108

DK fsmash on left edge of FD, hitting Snake left (higher trajectory, short distance)
Holding right, mashing jump: 55
Bair: 53
Bair fastfall: 53
Uair: 52
Uair fastfall: 52
Airdodge: 58

Using airdodge instead of bair or uair allows Snake to live significantly longer. When you are hit while close to the blast zone, using an aerial is actually worse than just jumping toward the stage, while airdodge is better. Also, as you can see, fastfalling does nothing to help you live longer. All it does is put you in a worse position to recover.

EDIT: forgot to mention all of these smashes are uncharged, in case you were looking to replicate my experiments.