Where is Lucina on the Tier List, Relative to Marth?

[Nika]

If this were the case (balancing out), people would be playing Lucina more. But in reality it's Lucina's forward smash vs Marth's Ftilt, Nair, Bair, Uair, Fair.
Who has more options to kill? Marth
Varied options are what scale at higher levels of play.
If I just have to avoid forward smash to survive vs having 5+ stronger raw/neutral strong KO tools, what's going to be easier for you to achieve?

Fair points. This is probably the best argument for Marth's superiority I've seen.

And before we go there, nair1 is not a set up that works offline (it's a telegraphed motion ; 30 frame start up), aerial DB1 doesn't combo into nair1 until very high percent as well. Jab into fsmash is something that rarely if ever works offline. There are no set ups into forward smash that consistently work. Meanwhile our sour jab strings or traps into tipper aerials at kill percent. A jab which stops working for you earlier than ours, with follow ups that won't kill while it does.

Very true. A lot of people on the forums bring these up, but you're right: they're not guaranteed or even reliable. Sourspot jab into tipper fair sounds cool and reasonable but I'm not sure I've ever seen it.

Also "better neutral" because of more reliable damage and combos? Remember: we have sour moves that allow those 'reliable combos' to last noticeably longer on Marth.
The thing about Lucina, is that she has no reason not to space at her tip, and unlike Marth that positioning would result in more consistent follow ups/damage at early to mid windows.

You see the contradiction here, right? You're usually going for tippers as either character. As Lucina, not having a sweet spot means that her tipper moves have less knockback, so she can simultaneously maintain optimal spacing AND get combos. Marth has to give up one or the other - have riskier spacing with sourspots, or fail to combo due to tippers. This is something I've experienced firsthand the many times I've tried switching to Marth.

Also, I believe Marth's sourspots also have less hitstun, meaning you don't just get free combos out of them because the opponent can often react faster out of them. (Pretty sure hitstun scales with knockback, and this also matches up with my own anecdotal experience.)

If people switched off of Lucina and were not getting the same or more success with the new character, why wouldn't they go back to her?
If high level players mained her, she would be getting similar results to Marth, I can accept that as valid (this is a well balanced game after all, and player skill means a lot more than character choice a lot of the time). But at what stage is ignoring the option spread difference between the two just plain ignorance? Why are people's results with Marth getting better after the buffs significantly while Lucina falls further into non-existence?
Is it a groupthink conspiracy? Or are people able to comprehend the differences and the risks/rewards themselves?
It all comes down to the diversity in options.

Has any high-level player switched FROM Lucina TO Marth and seen an improvement in results (at least within the past six months)? Has anyone?

For my part, I tried playing only Marth once at Xanadu and did noticeably worse. Obviously there's some amount of necessary adjustment, but it's not a free upgrade.

That said - I agree Marth has more kill options and that's a good enough reason to place him above her. But they are fundamentally the same character and the idea that Marth is a high tier while Lucina is a low tier is pretty dumb. I'd argue they're both pretty mid tier.

Your analogy actually demonstrates the difference in potential. Yes while one is easier to use, it has less potential and is a worse option than the direct hit IF you can use the weapon efficiently. The same thing goes for Marth and Lucina, while Lucina is much easier to use she has a lot less potential than Marth and is therefore less viable than him.

Sure, so the question is how viable it is to play the character to their fullest potential. For spacing aerials, perfect spacing is viable because you're usually doing that anyway, since it's easier to maneuver in the air than on the ground. For ground moves, it is very difficult to space perfectly because their moves are slow. You would probably need to master perfect pivoting to use Marth as effectively as Lucina on the ground.

Couldn't Lucina be used as an in-your-face fighter like Roy? She may not have a tipper, but that also means that she doesn't have to space her attacks.

So the problem is her frame data. Her fastest attack is Dolphin Slash (up B) which has invincibility on frame 4, then hits on frame 5. Of course, randomly throwing out Dolphin Slash in neutral is... not a great idea, at least not very often. Her jab is about the same speed, at frame 5.

These are slow for your fastest options. Any rushdown character like Fox or Captain Falcon is guaranteed to have a significantly faster jab (often frame 1, 2, or 3), which means that if they get inside your guard they just get a free hit. Lucina's moves are also pretty laggy, so they're unsafe to just throw out. That's why you need to maintain your spacing, though it is true that you have a little more leeway than Marth. As long as you're outside your opponent's jab range you're probably fine, whereas Marth really wants that precise tipper spacing.

Looking at Roy's data now - he has the same problem (frame 5 jab, nothing faster). That's a big part of why Roy is bad - he's clearly built as a rushdown character, but he doesn't have the super-fast options a rushdown character needs.

 

[Strong-Arm]

 

[wingedwill]

Outright, Marth beats Lucina. However, not in literally everything imaginable. That's an exaggeration. Inherently, Marth beats Lucina in a number of ways while Lucina also has her advantages over Marth, abiet slightly less.

On a fundamental scale, Marth holds a general advantage over Lucina. His tipper simply lets him kill earlier and untippered attacks have less knock back, excellent for setups. Because of their identical move set MOSTLY considered for spacing out the opponent, Marth's tippered attacks hold out in the end as a better wall since the tipper literally pushes the opponent out to his preferred sword range. However, Lucina objectively does better up close over Marth. Avoiding grabs (since they are the same besides Marth's slight upthrow advantage), dancing blade is a better move for Lucina, along with her Upsmash, none relying on the tipper. This up close advantage is something that Marth does not have. In addition, Lucina has slight perfect pivot advantages over Marth, making her better at footsies but Marth more focused on positioning.

The main issue is that Lucina shares Marth's moveset. The majority of Marth's moves center around spacing, and with spacing comes the advantage of tipper attacks. Again, to reiterate, Marth does better objectively due to his spacing prowess while Lucina does better up close.

Not every player is perfect, however, which is where the tipper debate breaks down to. Of course we all know that Marth cannot land a tippered attack 100% of the time. It just gives Marth a factor that makes him better at spacing, and with their moveset, objectively acts more effectively and gives more reason to work within that tipper range. This also breaks down to matchups between other characters, where Lucina can have a slight advantage because of a lack of a tipper, in which this isn't always a clear cut case. Because of said moveset and kit that both share that can work in different situations, and the recent addition of patches, the gap forces the debate of Lucina's placement in the tier list to enclose closer and closer to Marth.

Overall, opinion wise, I'd say that Lucina is just about one place behind Marth. That is, the dead middle of the cast.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Hi all. Until I came across this thread, I was hardcore on the "Marth is overall better than Lucina" train. Now after reading these really solid points (coming from both sides), I think I'm going to say that Lucina is a lot closer to Marth than I originally thought.

I've always prefered Lucina over Marth, however I've always mained Marth in tournament because I believed he was strictly the better character, therefore I will get better results. I've always been more comfortable with Lucina for whatever reason. As a primarily melee player who mains Marth in that game, I legitimately think it's odd.

Anyways, here's 2 videos I had the time to sit through. They're PugWest videos, who is arguably the best Marth in the world.

In this set, he got bodied. He also landed a total of 3 tippered moves. Yea, three, throughout the 2 game set. That's not a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEQn4gTl880

Granted, this set is almost a year old now, and he's improved considerably since then.

This next one is the first video I got when I searched "Pugwest" in YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEQn4gTl880

In this set, he landed about 15 tippers in total. None of them helped extend his combos or put his opponent in a bad position, and there was 1 or 2 in there where Lucina could have gotten a combo off of it. For example, Pugwest landed a tipper jab in game 2 that Lucina could have gotten a decent combo off of, and a Forward Air that lucina could have followed through with a second one.

Surprisingly to me, of the 3 stocks Pugwest took in total, one actually was a tipper kill, it was a tipper fair.

What I'm getting at here is that at high level play, Marth tippers don't really happen that often, and it seems that they rarely lead to kills.

While playing Lucina, I used to be constantly thinking: "Damn, that would have killed as Marth"

Lately, I noticed it's been the exact opposite when I'm playing Marth: "Damn, that would have killed as Lucina."

And it seems to happen significantly more often as well.

I only looked for Kills in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4f8odqJL-s

Kill 1 was a non tipper up air, Kill 2 was Marss going too deep, Kill 3 was the tipper of the upwards variation of the last hit of dancing blade, Kill 4 was an non tipper up smash, Kill 5 was a tipper back air (that might have actually killed as Lucina, not sure), Kill 6 was another non tipper up smash, Kill 7 was non tipper fsmash, Kill 8 was technically an SD by Marss.

Of his 8 kills, 2 were tippers. One of the kills (tipper back air) I think would have killed when you consider than Luci has a higher average damage output. Even without that, I think it had the possibility of killing as Lucina.

The other tipper kill I have no idea if Luci would have killed or not, but I'm inclined to believe no. It is possible if you consider the high percent Marss would have been at, and the strength of Lucina's blade, but I still doubt it.

I'm not sure what to think, honestly. I really think Lucina has the potential to be more consistent in a competitive setting, and could possibly be more viable.

I personally am a dual Marth-Lucina main (and Roy sprinkled in for matches like Fox), so I switch depending on the matchup. For example, I believe Lucina generally does better against Rob compared to Marth. I have a lot of experience in the Rob MU (I almost beat 8BitMan in bracket at StR 2015 I'll have you know), and I'm confident that Lucina does better. She doesn't have to think about spacing, so you can focus entirely on not letting Rob zone you out. Roy also does pretty OK against Rob. I think Marth is the worst of the 3 for that MU.

The following are my opinions and shouldn't be taken as fact, it's simply what I've observed:

Lucina does better against characters like Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosa (yes, even Rosa, her height makes it hard to land tippers), DK, Falcon, Link, Gannon, Samus, and some others. In my experience, marth does a lot better against shorter characters such as Kirby, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Pac Man, Yoshi, among many others.

Literally the only matchup I can think of where Marth has a very distinct advantage over Lucina is in the Yoshi matchup.

Well, I just kind of rambled for a long time didn't I. Hopefully it's coherent. Good points so far everyone.

TL;DR: Lucina is better than I thought she was, and there are plenty of matchups Lucina can be more comfortable in. Tippers aren't as common as you'd think, and people should totally dual-main Marth and Lucina.

 

[Floor]

This

Hi all. Until I came across this thread, I was hardcore on the "Marth is overall better than Lucina" train. Now after reading these really solid points (coming from both sides), I think I'm going to say that Lucina is a lot closer to Marth than I originally thought.

I've always prefered Lucina over Marth, however I've always mained Marth in tournament because I believed he was strictly the better character, therefore I will get better results. I've always been more comfortable with Lucina for whatever reason. As a primarily melee player who mains Marth in that game, I legitimately think it's odd.

Anyways, here's 2 videos I had the time to sit through. They're PugWest videos, who is arguably the best Marth in the world.

In this set, he got bodied. He also landed a total of 3 tippered moves. Yea, three, throughout the 2 game set. That's not a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEQn4gTl880

Granted, this set is almost a year old now, and he's improved considerably since then.

This next one is the first video I got when I searched "Pugwest" in YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEQn4gTl880

In this set, he landed about 15 tippers in total. None of them helped extend his combos or put his opponent in a bad position, and there was 1 or 2 in there where Lucina could have gotten a combo off of it. For example, Pugwest landed a tipper jab in game 2 that Lucina could have gotten a decent combo off of, and a Forward Air that lucina could have followed through with a second one.

Surprisingly to me, of the 3 stocks Pugwest took in total, one actually was a tipper kill, it was a tipper fair.

What I'm getting at here is that at high level play, Marth tippers don't really happen that often, and it seems that they rarely lead to kills.

While playing Lucina, I used to be constantly thinking: "Damn, that would have killed as Marth"

Lately, I noticed it's been the exact opposite when I'm playing Marth: "Damn, that would have killed as Lucina."

And it seems to happen significantly more often as well.

I only looked for Kills in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4f8odqJL-s

Kill 1 was a non tipper up air, Kill 2 was Marss going too deep, Kill 3 was the tipper of the upwards variation of the last hit of dancing blade, Kill 4 was an non tipper up smash, Kill 5 was a tipper back air (that might have actually killed as Lucina, not sure), Kill 6 was another non tipper up smash, Kill 7 was non tipper fsmash, Kill 8 was technically an SD by Marss.

Of his 8 kills, 2 were tippers. One of the kills (tipper back air) I think would have killed when you consider than Luci has a higher average damage output. Even without that, I think it had the possibility of killing as Lucina.

The other tipper kill I have no idea if Luci would have killed or not, but I'm inclined to believe no. It is possible if you consider the high percent Marss would have been at, and the strength of Lucina's blade, but I still doubt it.

I'm not sure what to think, honestly. I really think Lucina has the potential to be more consistent in a competitive setting, and could possibly be more viable.

I personally am a dual Marth-Lucina main (and Roy sprinkled in for matches like Fox), so I switch depending on the matchup. For example, I believe Lucina generally does better against Rob compared to Marth. I have a lot of experience in the Rob MU (I almost beat 8BitMan in bracket at StR 2015 I'll have you know), and I'm confident that Lucina does better. She doesn't have to think about spacing, so you can focus entirely on not letting Rob zone you out. Roy also does pretty OK against Rob. I think Marth is the worst of the 3 for that MU.

The following are my opinions and shouldn't be taken as fact, it's simply what I've observed:

Lucina does better against characters like Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosa (yes, even Rosa, her height makes it hard to land tippers), DK, Falcon, Link, Gannon, Samus, and some others. In my experience, marth does a lot better against shorter characters such as Kirby, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Pac Man, Yoshi, among many others.

Literally the only matchup I can think of where Marth has a very distinct advantage over Lucina is in the Yoshi matchup.

Well, I just kind of rambled for a long time didn't I. Hopefully it's coherent. Good points so far everyone.

TL;DR: Lucina is better than I thought she was, and there are plenty of matchups Lucina can be more comfortable in. Tippers aren't as common as you'd think, and people should totally dual-main Marth and Lucina.

Everyone on smashboards needs to read this and like this. Expecially that point you made that I've been telling my friends forever now "Damn, that would have killed as Lucina".

 

[Strong-Arm]

Hi all. Until I came across this thread, I was hardcore on the "Marth is overall better than Lucina" train. Now after reading these really solid points (coming from both sides), I think I'm going to say that Lucina is a lot closer to Marth than I originally thought.

I've always prefered Lucina over Marth, however I've always mained Marth in tournament because I believed he was strictly the better character, therefore I will get better results. I've always been more comfortable with Lucina for whatever reason. As a primarily melee player who mains Marth in that game, I legitimately think it's odd.

Anyways, here's 2 videos I had the time to sit through. They're PugWest videos, who is arguably the best Marth in the world.

In this set, he got bodied. He also landed a total of 3 tippered moves. Yea, three, throughout the 2 game set. That's not a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEQn4gTl880

Granted, this set is almost a year old now, and he's improved considerably since then.

This next one is the first video I got when I searched "Pugwest" in YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEQn4gTl880

In this set, he landed about 15 tippers in total. None of them helped extend his combos or put his opponent in a bad position, and there was 1 or 2 in there where Lucina could have gotten a combo off of it. For example, Pugwest landed a tipper jab in game 2 that Lucina could have gotten a decent combo off of, and a Forward Air that lucina could have followed through with a second one.

Surprisingly to me, of the 3 stocks Pugwest took in total, one actually was a tipper kill, it was a tipper fair.

What I'm getting at here is that at high level play, Marth tippers don't really happen that often, and it seems that they rarely lead to kills.

While playing Lucina, I used to be constantly thinking: "Damn, that would have killed as Marth"

Lately, I noticed it's been the exact opposite when I'm playing Marth: "Damn, that would have killed as Lucina."

And it seems to happen significantly more often as well.

I only looked for Kills in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4f8odqJL-s

Kill 1 was a non tipper up air, Kill 2 was Marss going too deep, Kill 3 was the tipper of the upwards variation of the last hit of dancing blade, Kill 4 was an non tipper up smash, Kill 5 was a tipper back air (that might have actually killed as Lucina, not sure), Kill 6 was another non tipper up smash, Kill 7 was non tipper fsmash, Kill 8 was technically an SD by Marss.

Of his 8 kills, 2 were tippers. One of the kills (tipper back air) I think would have killed when you consider than Luci has a higher average damage output. Even without that, I think it had the possibility of killing as Lucina.

The other tipper kill I have no idea if Luci would have killed or not, but I'm inclined to believe no. It is possible if you consider the high percent Marss would have been at, and the strength of Lucina's blade, but I still doubt it.

I'm not sure what to think, honestly. I really think Lucina has the potential to be more consistent in a competitive setting, and could possibly be more viable.

I personally am a dual Marth-Lucina main (and Roy sprinkled in for matches like Fox), so I switch depending on the matchup. For example, I believe Lucina generally does better against Rob compared to Marth. I have a lot of experience in the Rob MU (I almost beat 8BitMan in bracket at StR 2015 I'll have you know), and I'm confident that Lucina does better. She doesn't have to think about spacing, so you can focus entirely on not letting Rob zone you out. Roy also does pretty OK against Rob. I think Marth is the worst of the 3 for that MU.

The following are my opinions and shouldn't be taken as fact, it's simply what I've observed:

Lucina does better against characters like Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosa (yes, even Rosa, her height makes it hard to land tippers), DK, Falcon, Link, Gannon, Samus, and some others. In my experience, marth does a lot better against shorter characters such as Kirby, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Pac Man, Yoshi, among many others.

Literally the only matchup I can think of where Marth has a very distinct advantage over Lucina is in the Yoshi matchup.

Well, I just kind of rambled for a long time didn't I. Hopefully it's coherent. Good points so far everyone.

TL;DR: Lucina is better than I thought she was, and there are plenty of matchups Lucina can be more comfortable in. Tippers aren't as common as you'd think, and people should totally dual-main Marth and Lucina.

This. Thank you.

 

[Rewrite]

The only thing I have to add on top of the wonderful things that Shaya has said relates to the notion of "Oh, that would have killed if I was playing as x instead of y."

Whenever I play Lucina and strike an attack with the tip that would have killed as Marth, I will always think "Shoot, that would have K.O'd as Marth."

However, when I play Marth and miss the tipper, my mentality isn't "Shoot, that would have killed as Lucina." my thought is "Shoot, I failed to space that properly."

Mr. Potatobadger You're look at Pugwest's games is a good one, but I feel it's also a little invalidated when looking at it through the lens of "He failed to space the tipper" instead of "he would have received the better reward as Lucina".

 

[Jaypen7]

B

The only thing I have to add on top of the wonderful things that Shaya has said relates to the notion of "Oh, that would have killed if I was playing as x instead of y."

Whenever I play Lucina and strike an attack with the tip that would have killed as Marth, I will always think "Shoot, that would have K.O'd as Marth."

However, when I play Marth and miss the tipper, my mentality isn't "Shoot, that would have killed as Lucina." my thought is "Shoot, I failed to space that properly."

Mr. Potatobadger You're look at Pugwest's games is a good one, but I feel it's also a little invalidated when looking at it through the lens of "He failed to space the tipper" instead of "he would have received the better reward as Lucina".

It depends on how you look at it really. Us Lucina mains would've said "Oh we would've killed with that" since we're used to it. Marth mains would've said "Damn he missed the tipper."

 

[Nika]

The only thing I have to add on top of the wonderful things that Shaya has said relates to the notion of "Oh, that would have killed if I was playing as x instead of y."

Whenever I play Lucina and strike an attack with the tip that would have killed as Marth, I will always think "Shoot, that would have K.O'd as Marth."

However, when I play Marth and miss the tipper, my mentality isn't "Shoot, that would have killed as Lucina." my thought is "Shoot, I failed to space that properly."

Mr. Potatobadger You're look at Pugwest's games is a good one, but I feel it's also a little invalidated when looking at it through the lens of "He failed to space the tipper" instead of "he would have received the better reward as Lucina".

What he said was relevant because Pugwest is probably one of the top 3 Marth mains in the world. The point is that it's literally impossible to space tippers perfectly in many situations. For one thing, it's a fast game and human reflexes and coordination have limitations. For another, most of the time you only have a few frames to get a punish - not enough time to adjust your positioning, just enough to throw out the hardest attack you can. This is especially true on the ground where much mobility is more limited than it is in the air.

That's why in my opinion Lucina's fsmash is better than Marth's. Yes, Marth's can kill stupidly early which has a cool intimidation factor, but Lucina's actually DOES kill much more often (and is still very strong and fast). Conversely, that's why Marth has a superior air game: it's pretty easy to space aerials at the tip.

 

[Shaya]

I think every Marth would trade their fsmash for Lucina's in a heart beat. This has been stated countless times too. It's just plainly a better move, tipper fsmash's hitbox is comparebly 'small' in contrast to the rest and there aren't real set ups which allow consistent control for Marth to [eventually] allow tippers. Tilt stick is generally seen as superior to smash-stick too, and stutter step fsmashes - which is the main dynamic way to space fsmashes is mighty difficult / "forgotten tech" because of said tilt stick reliance.


While these match analyses (which I'd prefer not to also do myself to see if they hold to the same standard I would hope for) are painting a picture that points pro-Lucina, it isn't just on hit that matters. Fighting games are inherently defensive, and spacing against defensive options are essential - Marth spacing properly is safer completely (more shield push back, more shield stun), and poor spacing is reliably punished by most of the cast no matter the numbers (unless they're at the -5 or less on shield range, which unfortunately isn't something we're lucky enough to have).

How people play the match up against one or the other is generally always different too. I play all the swordies, among other swordies, pretty often - and my mental space is entirely different as Roy vs Lucina than it is vs Marth. To be fair, Roy's greatest weakness are those who are heavily rewarded at ranges that competes with him so it may just be this particular match up that is that skewed, but the difference between my Roy who has lost to Marth in tournament but has never lost to Lucina is sizable. It all comes down to how devastating every tipper is for roy to deal with, as his reward for trading vs Marth is completely one sided against him while the same scenario with Lucina is always significantly better - when I trade with her she's in a worse position as Roy has the mobility to retake control faster. Obviously as well the difference between avoiding Lucina Fsmash as Roy (which gives me a free KO punish of choice) vs avoiding 5+ different KO moves from Marth (which are just staple neutral/zoning tools, Roy won't be finding smash attack punishes or blazer against these things unless very poorly executed).

I honestly cannot envisage high/top level play not having these factors / interactions be just as paramount and influential in almost every match up, perhaps not as much as against Roy (I consider Marth likely his hardest match up, in contrast to Lucina who I believe is even, maybe 55:45 on either side), but to a level where nearly every match up is better for Marth and scarier for the opponent against Marth.

People who place Lucina in bottom tier are delusional, but I do genuinely believe the difference in capabilities is significant enough.

 

[Jaypen7]

How people play the match up against one or the other is generally always different too. I play all the swordies, among other swordies, pretty often - and my mental space is entirely different as Roy vs Lucina than it is vs Marth. To be fair, Roy's greatest weakness are those who are heavily rewarded at ranges that competes with him so it may just be this particular match up that is that skewed, but the difference between my Roy who has lost to Marth in tournament but has never lost to Lucina is sizable. It all comes down to how devastating every tipper is for roy to deal with, as his reward for trading vs Marth is completely one sided against him while the same scenario with Lucina is always significantly better - when I trade with her she's in a worse position as Roy has the mobility to retake control faster. Obviously as well the difference between avoiding Lucina Fsmash as Roy (which gives me a free KO punish of choice) vs avoiding 5+ different KO moves from Marth (which are just staple neutral/zoning tools, Roy won't be finding smash attack punishes or blazer against these things unless very poorly executed)..

But is the overall skill of the Lucina players just as good as the Marth players? You almost had me on this one, but how would a trade with put Lucina in a worse position unless the player decided to trade at Roy's sweet-spot range which would be weird? You'd be hitting with a sour-spot while Lucina has that consistent damage so generally more damage, hit-stun, and knock-back.

 

[Shaya]

But is the overall skill of the Lucina players just as good as the Marth players? You almost had me on this one, but how would a trade with put Lucina in a worse position unless the player decided to trade at Roy's sweet-spot range which would be weird? You'd be hitting with a sour-spot while Lucina has that consistent damage so generally more damage, hit-stun, and knock-back.

This is a non-PR'd Marth vs PR'd Lucinas (as their secondary). I wouldn't opt for the Marth match up in any situation I wasn't going Roy-only, it truly is a one-sided match up.

Roy's tipper aerials are good for follow ups and putting opponents into poor positions at the very least. If I'm able to trade with sweet spots that's awesome (against Lucina), but not necessary. It's the knockback differences, one's likely putting me a lot higher off the ground or off stage where Marth maintains control while Lucina doesn't do the same until much later percent.

 

[Rewrite]

B

It depends on how you look at it really. Us Lucina mains would've said "Oh we would've killed with that" since we're used to it. Marth mains would've said "Damn he missed the tipper."

The problem with that mentality is that you're wishing you'd opted for the consistent "easier" option rather than thinking you could have personally performed better.

 

[Shaya]

The problem with that mentality is that you're wishing you'd opted for the consistent "easier" option rather than thinking you could have personally performed better.

You're arguing "when I miss-pace it is more obvious hence it rates my performance/helps me improve", which does not really apply in this topic when the argument is (primarily) about the two's relative tier placement.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you / them.

 

[Nika]

Oh, Lucina destroys Roy. But I can imagine Marth destroying him even harder, haha.

Marth also beats Lucina because the match tends to be fought at tipper range.

The problem with that mentality is that you're wishing you'd opted for the consistent "easier" option rather than thinking you could have personally performed better.

Did you see my post? It's often either humanly or literally impossible to space perfectly, whether in neutral or when punishing. So Lucina is objectively better in many real-life situations.

 

[Floor]

Oh, Lucina destroys Roy. But I can imagine Marth destroying him even harder, haha.

Marth also beats Lucina because the match tends to be fought at tipper range.



Did you see my post? It's often either humanly or literally impossible to space perfectly, whether in neutral or when punishing. So Lucina is objectively better in many real-life situations.

Yeah, Martg v Lucina is definitely in Marth's favor... but where would you put that in a matchup chart? I think it's close enough to be counted as even given their similarities.

In other words, he wins, but not by enough to show on a matchup chart

 

[Jaypen7]

This is a non-PR'd Marth vs PR'd Lucinas (as their secondary). I wouldn't opt for the Marth match up in any situation I wasn't going Roy-only, it truly is a one-sided match up.

Roy's tipper aerials are good for follow ups and putting opponents into poor positions at the very least. If I'm able to trade with sweet spots that's awesome (against Lucina), but not necessary. It's the knockback differences, one's likely putting me a lot higher off the ground or off stage where Marth maintains control while Lucina doesn't do the same until much later percent.

This could just be me being biased but I'd expect someone who uses Lucina as a secondary to lose against a dedicated Roy main. They're not a dedicated Lucina main, which would mean they wouldn't have practiced with Lucina as much as someone who mains Lucina would. Again, I could just be biased.

The problem with that mentality is that you're wishing you'd opted for the consistent "easier" option rather than thinking you could have personally performed better.

Actually its not a problem at all because the Lucina main (not the one playing Marth) would be the one observing the happening and would be saying, "That would've killed with Lucina." A Marth main who wishes they opted for the consistency in Lucina's F Smash shouldn't even be playing Marth in the first place.

 

[Jaypen7]

Oh, Lucina destroys Roy. But I can imagine Marth destroying him even harder, haha.

Marth also beats Lucina because the match tends to be fought at tipper range.



Did you see my post? It's often either humanly or literally impossible to space perfectly, whether in neutral or when punishing. So Lucina is objectively better in many real-life situations.

I wouldn't say either of them destroy Roy, but they both for sure win the matchup

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

I always thought Lucina beat Marth. Every time I've ever had to fight a Marth, I lose as Marth but win as Luci.

I've felt like Lucina would do better generally against Marth because Marth would be trying to space his attacks, and Luci wouldn't have to worry about it, she can ignore his spacing. Marth dittos are always weird for me because it's this awkward battle of trying to land the most tippered attacks, both of you trying to keep at the same distance from each other.

Off topic, but I've been incorporating bidou into my gameplay, I'm at the point where I actually think it's improved me. Marth and Lucina are perfect candidates for Bidou, but Roy isn't. I switch between between Bidou and Non-Bidou on the fly, it's easier than you'd think. (I've got videos if you'd like me to share.)

 

[Nika]

I always thought Lucina beat Marth. Every time I've ever had to fight a Marth, I lose as Marth but win as Luci.

I've felt like Lucina would do better generally against Marth because Marth would be trying to space his attacks, and Luci wouldn't have to worry about it, she can ignore his spacing. Marth dittos are always weird for me because it's this awkward battle of trying to land the most tippered attacks, both of you trying to keep at the same distance from each other.

Off topic, but I've been incorporating bidou into my gameplay, I'm at the point where I actually think it's improved me. Marth and Lucina are perfect candidates for Bidou, but Roy isn't. I switch between between Bidou and Non-Bidou on the fly, it's easier than you'd think. (I've got videos if you'd like me to share.)

Interesting that it doesn't fit with your experience. The problem is that in order to literally hit at all, Lucina has to pass through Marth's tipper range. The matchup resets to neutral a lot because neither character has a lot of combos, so it's not like Fox or something where once you get in you can start racking up damage.

I actually find the ditto and Lucina vs. Marth to be extremely uncomfortable, weird matchups. My game plan is generally built around throwing out moves at a safe distance, but playing against yourself makes that impossible unless they whiff something first. I think at the end of the day it comes down to which player is better at controlling the stage.

 

[Ryusuta]

It's actually my experience that Lucina does better 1 on 1 with Marth, but until we see this matchup more than a couple of times on the top level of play, it's one of those things that's going to come down to subjective, anecdotal situations and perspectives. Honestly: Lucina vs. Marth is 100% legitimately my favorite matchup to play in all of Smash 4's pairings. There's a lot of finesse and style to it, win or lose. Same with Luci vs. Roy, but Roy is a lot more clearly disadvantaged in those cases, sadly.

 

[DarkK]

On the topic of Roy, what is it that his PM incarnation have that Smash 4's is lacking? Would you say that removing the weakest part of his blade (not making the blade shorter, but make the tip just as strong as the middle part of the blade, as his power is divided into 3 parts) would allow him to be a better character?

Regarding the MUs of vs and vs , I would say that Lucina totally beats Roy but I'm not sure what goes on between Marth and Lucina. I wanna say even, with both of them having clear advantages one over the other, but I'm not sure.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

On the topic of Roy, what is it that his PM incarnation have that Smash 4's is lacking? Would you say that removing the weakest part of his blade (not making the blade shorter, but make the tip just as strong as the middle part of the blade, as his power is divided into 3 parts) would allow him to be a better character?

Regarding the MUs of vs and vs , I would say that Lucina totally beats Roy but I'm not sure what goes on between Marth and Lucina. I wanna say even, with both of them having clear advantages one over the other, but I'm not sure.

Imo its a clear advantage for Marth. Much like the Roy MU, its played mostly at tipper range and because of his amazing reward at tipper range in comparison to Lucina it ends up just hurting more and more and more for her

 

[Ryusuta]

Imo its a clear advantage for Marth. Much like the Roy MU, its played mostly at tipper range and because of his amazing reward at tipper range in comparison to Lucina it ends up just hurting more and more and more for her

This issue is, there's a LOT more area in the swords that isn't tipper, and Marth is significantly disadvantaged there. Either way, it's a fairly even matchup, but I'd still give the edge to Lucina. Marth sure as hell isn't a specific counterpick for her, I can tell you that much one way or another (though FG players never seem to learn that XD).

 

[Dozr]

I always thought Lucina beat Marth. Every time I've ever had to fight a Marth, I lose as Marth but win as Luci.

I've felt like Lucina would do better generally against Marth because Marth would be trying to space his attacks, and Luci wouldn't have to worry about it, she can ignore his spacing. Marth dittos are always weird for me because it's this awkward battle of trying to land the most tippered attacks, both of you trying to keep at the same distance from each other.

Off topic, but I've been incorporating bidou into my gameplay, I'm at the point where I actually think it's improved me. Marth and Lucina are perfect candidates for Bidou, but Roy isn't. I switch between between Bidou and Non-Bidou on the fly, it's easier than you'd think. (I've got videos if you'd like me to share.)

ME TOO! I've been labbing bidou Lucina hardcore since I heard about it. It's not tournament-ready yet, but it's so refreshing to see others see the potential in using it on a spacing character like Lucina/Marth.


On a more related note, I tried to think of a way to buff lucina without making her super powerful, I couldn't. She's a very honest character with some surprises up her sleeve. By applying Bidou, she gains much-needed mobility options and spacing tools. Additoinally, Fsmash is a fantastic move which has combos that link into it. Lucina has a solid set of tools, and has a lot of potential that is overlooked. Many advanced techs are unique to her or a very small portion of the cast. Lagless get-ups, SHAD into anything (like a 1st hit Nair into Fsmash), as well as a very solid extended dash dance and highly useful perfect pivot. C-bouncing is also incredibly useful with shieldbreaker.

Add all of that to a combo breaker like Dolphin Slash and a defensive move like Counter, Lucina can hang with the top characters so long as she is played intelligently. The only reason she isn't higher in peoples' minds is that she's too honest right now. While Lucina has great matchups vs the likes of Sheik, Sonic, Cloud, Fox, and Rosaluma with the implementation of optimized movement and SHAD to break through projectile walls/punish laggy moves (like on Cloud), her metagame isn't developed enough yet. Until Bidou and her kill-setups are universally used, her potential can't compete with the blatantly strong aspects of top tiers. Using her 100% honestly will only leave her mains high and dry when they find a top-tier played at equal skill in bracket.

 

[Jaypen7]

Imo its a clear advantage for Marth. Much like the Roy MU, its played mostly at tipper range and because of his amazing reward at tipper range in comparison to Lucina it ends up just hurting more and more and more for her

In my opinion the advantage is probably less than you think. The match up is literally seeing who messes up first.

 

[Jaypen7]

ME TOO! I've been labbing bidou Lucina hardcore since I heard about it. It's not tournament-ready yet, but it's so refreshing to see others see the potential in using it on a spacing character like Lucina/Marth.


On a more related note, I tried to think of a way to buff lucina without making her super powerful, I couldn't. She's a very honest character with some surprises up her sleeve. By applying Bidou, she gains much-needed mobility options and spacing tools. Additoinally, Fsmash is a fantastic move which has combos that link into it. Lucina has a solid set of tools, and has a lot of potential that is overlooked. Many advanced techs are unique to her or a very small portion of the cast. Lagless get-ups, SHAD into anything (like a 1st hit Nair into Fsmash), as well as a very solid extended dash dance and highly useful perfect pivot. C-bouncing is also incredibly useful with shieldbreaker.

Add all of that to a combo breaker like Dolphin Slash and a defensive move like Counter, Lucina can hang with the top characters so long as she is played intelligently. The only reason she isn't higher in peoples' minds is that she's too honest right now. While Lucina has great matchups vs the likes of Sheik, Sonic, Cloud, Fox, and Rosaluma with the implementation of optimized movement and SHAD to break through projectile walls/punish laggy moves (like on Cloud), her metagame isn't developed enough yet. Until Bidou and her kill-setups are universally used, her potential can't compete with the blatantly strong aspects of top tiers. Using her 100% honestly will only leave her mains high and dry when they find a top-tier played at equal skill in bracket.

I'm a dedicated Lucina main, but I'm pretty sure you're over-estimating her

 

[Dozr]

I'm a dedicated Lucina main, but I'm pretty sure you're over-estimating her

In terms of national-level play, I agree. At the local level I do think Lucina has potential to beat a lot of people, and has a lot of room to grow.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

In my opinion the advantage is probably less than you think. The match up is literally seeing who messes up first.

But then Marth has the potential to get more reward off of everything Lucina messes up on and pressures harder with tippers. Yes Lucina has consistent damage on single hits but Marth has a better overall combo game and can consistently get more damage out of his hits

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

But then Marth has the potential to get more reward off of everything Lucina messes up on and pressures harder with tippers. Yes Lucina has consistent damage on single hits but Marth has a better overall combo game and can consistently get more damage out of his hits

Not entirely true. I'd argue that Marth has a better combo game in a general sense, (basically falling uair -> followup and fair -> followup) but Lucina's is better where it counts.

What I mean is, Lucina's First-Hit Nair to Fsmash is guaranteed at percents where it will kill, whereas with Marth, not only is it a lot less likely to be a true combo, it's even less likely to kill unless you get super lucky and land a tipper. Lucina can kill with falling uair to bair, Marth cannot unless he somehow manages to land a tipper.

-------------------------------------------

The more I play, the more convinced I am that Lucina is the better character in an over all, general sense. I honestly can't believe I'm saying those words, I thought I never would. I honestly hoped I never would.

Edit: Check out this video I uploaded yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odSJ8zjHJFQ

In this game where I played Marth, I landed a total of 3 tippers. All of them were within like 15 seconds of each other, and none of them helped me in any significant way, except arguably the f-air.

At 1:18 ish, that side b -> first hit nair -> fsmash would have killed as lucina, if you account for the extra damage Lucina deals.

I dunno man, I just feel Lucina would have done better if I played her the same exact way. The tippers didn't help at all, the extra damage they do did not make up for all the tippers I missed. And I'd argue I'm pretty good at spacing.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Not entirely true. I'd argue that Marth has a better combo game in a general sense, (basically falling uair -> followup and fair -> followup) but Lucina's is better where it counts.

What I mean is, Lucina's First-Hit Nair to Fsmash is guaranteed at percents where it will kill, whereas with Marth, not only is it a lot less likely to be a true combo, it's even less likely to kill unless you get super lucky and land a tipper. Lucina can kill with falling uair to bair, Marth cannot unless he somehow manages to land a tipper.

-------------------------------------------

The more I play, the more convinced I am that Lucina is the better character in an over all, general sense. I honestly can't believe I'm saying those words, I thought I never would. I honestly hoped I never would.

I have to disagree with you on that, Lucina has easier kill combos but she has a lot less

just to name a few:
Falling up air to tipper up smash > falling nair to fsmash imo
reversed hitbox of up tilt -> tipper bair
falling up air -> any tipper aerial
tipper jab 1 -> tipper fair
dthrow 50/50 on fastfallers
fallling up air -> tipper fsmash

and I'm sure someone like Shaya could name off a dozen more

Spacing tipper aerials isn't that hard, at least not for me. If you're having trouble just remember practice makes perfect

The more I play Lucina the more I realize her limitations and the lower I think she should be.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

I have to disagree with you on that, Lucina has easier kill combos but she has a lot less

just to name a few:
Falling up air to tipper up smash > falling nair to fsmash imo
reversed hitbox of up tilt -> tipper bair
falling up air -> any tipper aerial
tipper jab 1 -> tipper fair
dthrow 50/50 on fastfallers
fallling up air -> tipper fsmash

and I'm sure someone like Shaya could name off a dozen more

Spacing tipper aerials isn't that hard, at least not for me. If you're having trouble just remember practice makes perfect

The more I play Lucina the more I realize her limitations and the lower I think she should be.

I have no problem spacing, I'm pretty good at it.

If you could show me some examples of those combos getting kills at high level play, I'd love to see them.

Also, just to be clear, I don't think Lucina is significantly better than Marth. And I don't think Marth is significantly better than Lucina. I personally think it's ridiculous to place them any more than 2 to 3 spots apart on a tier list. For example, on Esam's list, Lucina is like 4 tiers below Marth, which I think is stupid. Marth and Lucina should inherently be close to each other on the tier list. What I'm getting at is this: I think Lucina has the possibility to be better than Marth in a general sense, or at least a lot closer than I originally thought.

 

[Jaypen7]

I have to disagree with you on that, Lucina has easier kill combos but she has a lot less.

Easier, or more consistent? I personally think more consistent.Also, provide a link showing where any of those combos actually worked at a high level

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Easier, or more consistent? I personally think more consistent.Also, provide a link showing where any of those combos actually worked at a high level

If i were to show you a game, it wouldn't prove anything. It would only show that it is a viable mixup so instead I'll just link you to the Marth boards, a place full of these wonderful kill confirms that have been tested and shown to be true

http://smashboards.com/forums/marth.416/

Also, I would call a single kill confirm easier instead of more consistent. When its one of her few actual kill confirms it gets predictable unlike Marth who has more options in almost every situation.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

If i were to show you a game, it wouldn't prove anything. It would only show that it is a viable mixup so instead I'll just link you to the Marth boards, a place full of these wonderful kill confirms that have been tested and shown to be true

http://smashboards.com/forums/marth.416/

Also, I would call a single kill confirm easier instead of more consistent. When its one of her few actual kill confirms it gets predictable unlike Marth who has more options in almost every situation.

I absolutely think showing a game would prove something. All of these things don't meaning jack if they can't be done regularly at the highest level of play.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I absolutely think showing a game would prove something. All of these things don't meaning jack if they can't be done regularly at the highest level of play.

Tipper jab -> tipper fair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b03a7geD7xY

theres for tipper jab setups, and since were on the topic of results, Lucinas are bottom of the barrel even for a character as underrepped as her

 

[Dozr]

Tipper jab -> tipper fair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b03a7geD7xY

theres for tipper jab setups, and since were on the topic of results, Lucinas are bottom of the barrel even for a character as underrepped as her

View attachment 109454

I don't quite understand what you're implying by putting weighted tournament data with your comment. This whole debate is theoretical, as there is not enough representation of either Marth or Lucina in high-level play. All we have is the argument of consistency vs precision. If you can land 100% tippers on command then great, you win the award for predicting the future. However, in practice the vast majority of players cannot guarantee landing a tiny hitbox on a moving target, especially when their opponents are actively avoiding this tipper hitbox. It is far easier to graze an enemy with Lucina's consistent damage than to chance upon catching a wary enemy with a Marth tipper (especially in neutral).

The question is not whether or not Marth is better than Lucina in a perfect world, it's whether Marth's tippers in a game with vastly inferior movement options to games like Melee hurt Marth's ability to succeed when played at a high level.

If you're playing vs a weaker opponent, you will get farther by using Marth because they won't be actively avoiding your tippers. However, the argument breaks down when you consider that when you look at the aggressive, top-tier characters (diddy, sheik, fox, pika, sonic, cloud) being able to get in close faster than marth can space. Marth doesn't have the mobility options to get around these characters, and so the landing of tippers is less of a matter of "skill" and is more a matter of the "skill gap" between the players.

Comparing Marth's results to Lucina's isn't productive. Marth stomps weaker players harder, and Lucina is objectively weaker than the top-tier characters that competitive players would gravitate towards, especially in the current metagame (not to mention the nerf to shieldbreaker).

At the end of the day, Marth and Lucina are different characters with nuanced differences in goals and playstyle. If I were to fight a Cloud as Lucina or Marth, I'd probably pick Marth. Vs a Diddy? Lucina. The two characters belong side-by-side on any tierlist, and only differ in the matchups they have advantages in, while allowing a Marcina main to switch on the fly, and gaining more depth to the character/playstyle they prefer and love.

but i dunno, just my 2 cents

 

[Jaypen7]

If i were to show you a game, it wouldn't prove anything. It would only show that it is a viable mixup so instead I'll just link you to the Marth boards, a place full of these wonderful kill confirms that have been tested and shown to be true

http://smashboards.com/forums/marth.416/

Also, I would call a single kill confirm easier instead of more consistent. When its one of her few actual kill confirms it gets predictable unlike Marth who has more options in almost every situation.

I'll stop this debate/borderline-argument for a sec to appreciate that last kill False had on Game 3. Ok, so moving on. Some of the stocks I saw I'm a little iffy on whether Lucina would've killed as well but I'll assume no. The jab tipper fair I saw in Game 3 Lucina definitely would've killed as well because Fox was at around 130, is a very light character, and Marth had some rage. I forgot exactly where but False missed the tipper on an f smash, Lucina definitely would've killed. Even when False landed the tippers I'm positive Lucina still would've had stage control so not THAT much of a big deal.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'll stop this debate/borderline-argument for a sec to appreciate that last kill False had on Game 3. Ok, so moving on. Some of the stocks I saw I'm a little iffy on whether Lucina would've killed as well but I'll assume no. The jab tipper fair I saw in Game 3 Lucina definitely would've killed as well because Fox was at around 130, is a very light character, and Marth had some rage. I forgot exactly where but False missed the tipper on an f smash, Lucina definitely would've killed. Even when False landed the tippers I'm positive Lucina still would've had stage control so not THAT much of a big deal.

Comparing Marth vs Lucina in a match that has already happened is not the best idea

Theres more or less knockback and damage per hit which translates to different levels of stage control and different percents which means different situations and then it just gets worse because then you have to figure out what would happen in that situation and then you have to do it again and again and again and again and its not even worth it
Where False missed the tipper fsmash in game 1, Lucina might have not even gotten him to the same percent before that happened or been in the same situation at all

Personally there are only 2, maybe 3 matches I will actually use Lucina over Marth in. Sonic because spacing against him is annoying and Lucario because he either dies at 60 or at 170 and that is stressful as hell. I might try Lucina over Marth with the Peach MU because float is wonky to hit tippers with for me

Other than that I see no reason to play Lucina over Marth and I see no reason why she should be as high as him

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Comparing Marth vs Lucina in a match that has already happened is not the best idea

Theres more or less knockback and damage per hit which translates to different levels of stage control and different percents which means different situations and then it just gets worse because then you have to figure out what would happen in that situation and then you have to do it again and again and again and again and its not even worth it
Where False missed the tipper fsmash in game 1, Lucina might have not even gotten him to the same percent before that happened or been in the same situation at all

Personally there are only 2, maybe 3 matches I will actually use Lucina over Marth in. Sonic because spacing against him is annoying and Lucario because he either dies at 60 or at 170 and that is stressful as hell. I might try Lucina over Marth with the Peach MU because float is wonky to hit tippers with for me

Other than that I see no reason to play Lucina over Marth and I see no reason why she should be as high as him

Of the 13 moves False landed that first game, 5 were tippers. I'm confident that Lucina would have been at at least the same percent. I would do the math to figure out what percent fox would be at if he were fighting Lucina, but I have to leave for work in like 10 minutes lol, maybe later today. Lucina defenitely would've killed with that fsmash.