Where is Lucina on the Tier List, Relative to Marth?

[Floor]

I've looked around at a lot of tier lists around and almost all of them put Lucina at bottom tier. Okay, so people want to discredit my main, big deal; I can take it. But what gets to me is those same tier lists usually put Marth way above Lucina, regardless of their similarities and they're official clone status.

So i turn to the community, why is Lucina more than one character below Marth on most tier lists? If they want to put Marth above Lucina on the basis of a tipper, that's fine; some people perfer tippers, but they are the second most identical characters on the roster text to the Pits, so why the big gap?

 

[Ryusuta]

She's generally considered one step lower across the board, but others like myself consider her at absolute parity with him. In spite of the impression you might be given by many people, her matchup ratio is almost always going to be virtually identical, as their differences aren't that huge. Marth's forward tilt gives him a TINY edge in many cases (with notable exceptions such as Pikachu, which Lucina is slightly better against), but generally speaking, if you see 60:40 Marth, it's going to be 60:40 Lucina. If someone tries to tell you otherwise, they probably don't know the two that well.

 

[DarkAuraful]

At worst, I think Lucina should be around low-mid tier. I personally think she's barley a solid mid-tier right now. 1.1.4 did grant her justice in making her work after all. She's at that point in which the gap between her and Marth shouldn't be that big anymore.

I've seen people put Marth in high tier and while I disagree myself, I get where they're coming from since Marth's proving himself in the big tourneys recently. Though they could be separated by two or three spots, I'd say Lucina is right around the same tier Marth is in.

By all means, she is no where close to being low tier or bottom tier anymore.

 

[DarkK]

In my eyes, they can be a few spots apart, but they should always be on the same tier.

 

[Jaypen7]

At the worst she's at the top of low tier. At best, somewhere around Marth usually below. But I have heard people say that Lucina may have the potential to be better competitively than Marth

 

[Ryusuta]

At the worst she's at the top of low tier. At best, somewhere around Marth usually below. But I have heard people say that Lucina may have the potential to be better competitively than Marth

I'm absolutely of that camp. I genuinely think that post-1.1.4, Lucina absolutely has the tools to stand toe-to-toe with Marth at minimum, and potentially outshine him straight-up. And there are actually several reasons why.

The truth is, Marth's biggest advantage over Lucina isn't even his tippered smashes, because while yes, they are DEVASTATINGLY powerful, even the absolute best Marth players in Smash 4 don't hit those every time. (And below the top level, the VAST majority of Marth players I see don't even hit it most of the time, meaning they're better of just being Lucina by default.) Surprisingly, the biggest advantage he has over Lucina is his tippered forward tilt, which is extremely fast and has a kill potential that is disproportionate from most of his tippered attacks vs. Lucina's blade. Marth's forward tilt can kill moderate-weight characters at 80-90% at the end of the stage, but Lucina's will almost never kill. This is the ACTUAL point of contention that might put Marth in a better category.

So, why do I disagree? Well, several reasons, actually. The fact of the matter is that 1.1.4 was a huge game-changer for the two of them in so many ways. Prior to 1.1.4, their hitboxes were very small and broken, which made spacing a nightmare. They also had TERRIBLE frame data on a lot of their attacks. So the fact was, Marth NEEDED that extra kill option and Lucina flat-out never even HAD it. So yes, prior to 1.1.4, I would say Marth was just better.

One of the most incredibly huge buffs they got was surprsingly to their jab, which was a frame faster (that's a BIG difference for jabs), and combined with the VASTLY improved hitboxes on a lot of attacks, they now have so many, many MANY more combo options than they used to have. As a result, the admittedly still-useful forward tilt can now often be supplanted by setups such as jab -> forward smash, which kills better and is safer because it's dead easy to hit-confirm.

Lucina and Marth's forward aerial is another MASSIVE factor in this, because prior to 1.1.4, it used to have an almost nonexistent disjoint. Now it's a fairly respectable forward air, beating out Sheik's in range and priority. Because of this, Marth and Lucina have AMAZING edge-guarding tools that have to be respected, making immediate kill options less important still. They simply dominate when edge guarding, so for many characters, just getting them off-stage is often enough.

Lucina is basically always going to rack up damage better than Marth, just due to the nature of the game. Even if the Marth player can hit all of his tippers, it's not always the best move because sometimes hitting the tip will ruin potential combo options such as Dancing Blade setups. Dancing Blade in and of itself will almost always do more damage when performed by Lucina. Again, this difference is often mitigated by a well-placed tippered kill move, but it is by NO means a factor that should be overlooked.

After the shield nerfing update, Lucina's attacks on shield have become slightly more safe than Marth's due to increased shield stun. While Lucina should always be spacing the same way Marth does, this means that she's less harmed by an attack that is slightly inside of where she expected.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying "Lucina is always better end of discussion." I am saying that there's a definite discussion to be had, with points on either side. I personally think that Lucina's consistency and damage potential make her the stronger character, but I won't deny that a well-spaced Marth can easily blow her out of the water with his insane killing power.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I'm absolutely of that camp. I genuinely think that post-1.1.4, Lucina absolutely has the tools to stand toe-to-toe with Marth at minimum, and potentially outshine him straight-up. And there are actually several reasons why.

The truth is, Marth's biggest advantage over Lucina isn't even his tippered smashes, because while yes, they are DEVASTATINGLY powerful, even the absolute best Marth players in Smash 4 don't hit those every time. (And below the top level, the VAST majority of Marth players I see don't even hit it most of the time, meaning they're better of just being Lucina by default.) Surprisingly, the biggest advantage he has over Lucina is his tippered forward tilt, which is extremely fast and has a kill potential that is disproportionate from most of his tippered attacks vs. Lucina's blade. Marth's forward tilt can kill moderate-weight characters at 80-90% at the end of the stage, but Lucina's will almost never kill. This is the ACTUAL point of contention that might put Marth in a better category.

So, why do I disagree? Well, several reasons, actually. The fact of the matter is that 1.1.4 was a huge game-changer for the two of them in so many ways. Prior to 1.1.4, their hitboxes were very small and broken, which made spacing a nightmare. They also had TERRIBLE frame data on a lot of their attacks. So the fact was, Marth NEEDED that extra kill option and Lucina flat-out never even HAD it. So yes, prior to 1.1.4, I would say Marth was just better.

One of the most incredibly huge buffs they got was surprsingly to their jab, which was a frame faster (that's a BIG difference for jabs), and combined with the VASTLY improved hitboxes on a lot of attacks, they now have so many, many MANY more combo options than they used to have. As a result, the admittedly still-useful forward tilt can now often be supplanted by setups such as jab -> forward smash, which kills better and is safer because it's dead easy to hit-confirm.

Lucina and Marth's forward aerial is another MASSIVE factor in this, because prior to 1.1.4, it used to have an almost nonexistent disjoint. Now it's a fairly respectable forward air, beating out Sheik's in range and priority. Because of this, Marth and Lucina have AMAZING edge-guarding tools that have to be respected, making immediate kill options less important still. They simply dominate when edge guarding, so for many characters, just getting them off-stage is often enough.

Lucina is basically always going to rack up damage better than Marth, just due to the nature of the game. Even if the Marth player can hit all of his tippers, it's not always the best move because sometimes hitting the tip will ruin potential combo options such as Dancing Blade setups. Dancing Blade in and of itself will almost always do more damage when performed by Lucina. Again, this difference is often mitigated by a well-placed tippered kill move, but it is by NO means a factor that should be overlooked.

After the shield nerfing update, Lucina's attacks on shield have become slightly more safe than Marth's due to increased shield stun. While Lucina should always be spacing the same way Marth does, this means that she's less harmed by an attack that is slightly inside of where she expected.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying "Lucina is always better end of discussion." I am saying that there's a definite discussion to be had, with points on either side. I personally think that Lucina's consistency and damage potential make her the stronger character, but I won't deny that a well-spaced Marth can easily blow her out of the water with his insane killing power.

alright I'm just going to come right out and say it, this is wrong
Marth's biggest advantage over Lucina is overall kill power, not just kill power on ftilt. All of his aerials have the ability to kill, his ftilt AND utilt both have the ability to kill, really the only of Marth's that wont kill when tipped is jab and dtilt, and even then dtilt will kill at the ledge around 160

Another huge thing is that Marth gets more reward for doing exactly the same thing Lucina is doing. Just because she lacks the hitbox placement doesn't mean she doesn't need to space, this ends up making Marth safer on shield and resulting in a much stronger neutral and advantage state.
Take falling up air -> up smash for example
On Marth you can opt for a falling tipper up air to tipper up smash for ~30% at low percents, and then later you can get falling sour up air -> upsmash for a kill at around 70 (Marth's tipper up smash is 3rd strongest last I checked)
Meanwhile Lucina is only going to get around 20 for the same thing and its never going to work at kill percent

Now I do realize there are some thing Lucina can do that Marth can't because of the way her hitboxes work but everything she can do pales in comparison to what Marth is able to do. I do realize there are some matches where Lucina can be less stressful to play but that doesn't mean they're better for her. Overall Lucina is easier to play consistently but doesn't get the same reward as Marth. He is always going to be a cut above her as long as patches don't do something.

Now, that doesn't mean I think Lucina is a low tier. She has way to many strengths to be grouped in with characters like Bowser Jr or DDD. I feel like shes a well balanced mid tier character, Marth on the other hand I feel like is between 19 - 23. His results have been amazing lately

 

[Ryusuta]

alright I'm just going to come right out and say it, this is wrong

I would greatly appreciate it if you maybe didn't open with "Nope, you're just wrong," to start things. This might seem like a nitpick, but it's actually a legitimate roadblock to productive discussion.

I get that you disagree with me on the numbers and the conclusion. Smash is a very complex game like that. But the way you opened this conversation impresses upon me that you cannot and will not accept another point of view. It's very disheartening and it is definitely a factor in discussions like this.

I will respect your perspective on things and what you take away from your experience and study. I would like you to do the same or we'll likely get absolutely nowhere.

Having said that, let's address some things.

Marth's biggest advantage over Lucina is overall kill power, not just kill power on ftilt. All of his aerials have the ability to kill, his ftilt AND utilt both have the ability to kill, really the only of Marth's that wont kill when tipped is jab and dtilt, and even then dtilt will kill at the ledge around 160

Yes, his tippers have kill power. But the issue is, not every hit can be a tipper. Given the extra damage output and the fact that there is virtually no difference in off-stage aerials killing regardless of tip, sour spot, or Lucina's standard blade. Offstage, it's negligible whether Marth tippers or Lucina simply hits. I singled forward tilt out because it is one of his quicker kill moves and I explained why I don't think sudden kills are as much of an issue due to much more easy kill setups in general for both of them after 1.1.4.

Another huge thing is that Marth gets more reward for doing exactly the same thing Lucina is doing. Just because she lacks the hitbox placement doesn't mean she doesn't need to space, this ends up making Marth safer on shield and resulting in a much stronger neutral and advantage state.

I already said that Lucina has to space, did you not see? I was very clear on this. Marth isn't safer on shield on the majority of his sword because his blade has very little shield stun. Granted, if you hit the shield with a tipper you have more shield stun, but that's a moot point because it's harder to punish at that distance anyway.

To say Lucina gets less reward for the same actions is again something that I addressed. Lucina is generally better at dealing damage because hitting tippers reduces Marth's combo options while sour spotting directly does less damage per hit. Dancing Blade will almost always do more damage with Lucina because you simply can't tipper every single hit of the move. Lucina is capable of outputting a fair bit more damage than Marth in a lot of combo situations. Not all, but a lot.

Take falling up air -> up smash for example
On Marth you can opt for a falling tipper up air to tipper up smash for ~30% at low percents, and then later you can get falling sour up air -> upsmash for a kill at around 70 (Marth's tipper up smash is 3rd strongest last I checked)
Meanwhile Lucina is only going to get around 20 for the same thing and its never going to work at kill percent

I'll grant that if you manage to get the tip on combos such as that, they can be devastating. Marth's tippers in general are exceedingly powerful, and they have some great setups if you can land them. But even on a high tournament level, I've seen whole matches go by without a tippered kill. Are you going to honestly tell me otherwise? And yes, I would say there have been multiple times I've watched a comp Marth and said "That would have killed as Lucina." That doesn't mean Lucina would absolutely have been the correct choice, but it means that she can be.

Now I do realize there are some thing Lucina can do that Marth can't because of the way her hitboxes work but everything she can do pales in comparison to what Marth is able to do. I do realize there are some matches where Lucina can be less stressful to play but that doesn't mean they're better for her. Overall Lucina is easier to play consistently but doesn't get the same reward as Marth. He is always going to be a cut above her as long as patches don't do something.

Neither of them need a patch. They've both seen plenty of buffs and other characters are far more in need of updates than these two. Now again, Marth has early KO potential. But to say that that alone is what makes him better in any way is incredibly disingenuous. Consistency is a legitimate advantage in a game where smash DI plays such a huge part. Marth has better KO potential on paper, but we've seen that not play out time and again.

Now, that doesn't mean I think Lucina is a low tier. She has way to many strengths to be grouped in with characters like Bowser Jr or DDD. I feel like shes a well balanced mid tier character, Marth on the other hand I feel like is between 19 - 23. His results have been amazing lately

I hate to go down this rabbit hole, but the fact is that Marth gets more results because he's used more.

***BEFORE YOU SAY ANYTHING!*** I get the chicken-and-egg thing. "Is Marth used more because he gets more results, or does he get more results because he's used more?" I get it. What I'm saying is, Lucina is a question mark in that regard. People who currently play Marth have almost unilaterally done so since pre-1.1.4, so it's likely there was never much imperative to switch. That doesn't mean I'm right. It means I don't think anyone really knows. That's why I've said more than once that the above post were simply my opinions based on my own experience and observations.

I understand that you disagree out of hand. I also understand that you think I'm categorically wrong. I respect that. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. I don't believe that I am. And I feel I gave some very valid points and that there is a lot more to this discussion than "Lucina is simply bad Marth, move along."

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ryusuta
A lot of what you said seems like it implies incorrect spacing and one thing in particular kinda made me mad

For one, a well practiced Marth will consistently be hitting with the tip, correct spacing is one of the biggest things Marth players strive for.

Also, offstage spacing definitely matter and saying that it doesn't is a bit dumb. Hitting a Sheik offstage with Lucinas isn't going to kill her at 50 OR gimp her, Marth however will most likely close a stock at an extremely early percent if he gets the tip

 

[Floor]

Ryusuta
A lot of what you said seems like it implies incorrect spacing and one thing in particular kinda made me mad

For one, a well practiced Marth will consistently be hitting with the tip, correct spacing is one of the biggest things Marth players strive for.

Also, offstage spacing definitely matter and saying that it doesn't is a bit dumb. Hitting a Sheik offstage with Lucinas isn't going to kill her at 50 OR gimp her, Marth however will most likely close a stock at an extremely early percent if he gets the tip

I actually agree with Ryusuta on Marth and spacing. A good Math can space, but a good opponent can keep Marth from tipping. As for edge guarding, Lucina can always come back for more. If Sheik survives the first hit, Lucina can easily grab the ledge and start over. A tip for edge guarding really only benefits Marth for KOing a Pit or villager who don't need to worry about jumps to recover. I'd argue Lucina and Marth can edge guard just about equally for most characters, at least the top tiers. While a tip helps, the main focus for Marcina edge guarding is rinsing and repeating until the opponent can't make it back.

 

[Ryusuta]

Ryusuta
A lot of what you said seems like it implies incorrect spacing and one thing in particular kinda made me mad

For one, a well practiced Marth will consistently be hitting with the tip, correct spacing is one of the biggest things Marth players strive for.

Also, offstage spacing definitely matter and saying that it doesn't is a bit dumb. Hitting a Sheik offstage with Lucinas isn't going to kill her at 50 OR gimp her, Marth however will most likely close a stock at an extremely early percent if he gets the tip

SerPete addressed the bulk of this quite admirably, but I'd also like to add a couple of quick thoughts.

First, you seem to imply that only Marths aim for spacing and that is incorrect. Lucina and Marth play an almost identical spacing game to one another. Marth is rewarded more for spacing kill moves, while Lucina is punished less for closer attacks and deals more overall damage in the majority of cases.

The intent of a well-practiced Marth is indeed to hit with the tip a lot of the time (but sometimes deliberately NOT hit the tip in order to extend certain combos), but anyone who's ever watched a high-level Marth knows that sometimes it just doesn't happen. Now, you can say that in those cases you still would like Marth more on principle. That's perfectly fine and valid, and I have no qualms with that. But the idea that a high-level Marth is always going to be hitting those tippers in key moments is just absolutely fallacious, and any tournament Marth worth their salt on Smash 4 would tell you the same. Playing Marth isn't about hitting 100% tippers. It's about having options to select from regardless of which part of the blade hits and kicking ass off-stage.

And on the subject of offstage it honestly, truly means virtually nothing whether you're using Marth or Lucina, and I'll controversially argue that it might actually favor Lucina because there's a lot more DI and aerial spacing shenanigans going on during recovery than on-stage, and Marth's blade attacks for forward air aren't fantastic. But that's not even an important point to me. Marth and Lucina are almost always going to be dead even off-stage, where they arguably are both at their strongest because the knockback difference in relation to both good and bad recoveries is often insubstantial.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ryusuta
I never said that Lucina doesn't have to space, just that Marth does it better. Sorry for the confusion
I also never said a Marth is going to have perfect spacing every time, but more often than not they will space correctly

As for the offstage thing, lets look at an example vs a character with a long horizontal recovery, like DK
You most likely aren't going to gimp a DK horizontally, and spiking him is rather risky with a 1 frame spike window that could cost you 30% for missing, so this leaves you with dtilt, bair, fair, and counter

You drop off fair him with lucina at 80, he makes it back because he doesn't die
You drop off fair him with Marth, you get the sourspot and can then combo into the tip for a guaranteed kill at 80 or even lower

You dtilt him with Lucina and steal his jump, his only option is to use his recovery so try and counter but he makes it back before you can
You tipper dtilt him with Marth and steal his jump, this time you have enough time to go off and counter because he gets sent much further

Maybe its personal bias but I cant see any situations where Lucina would have the advantage over Marth offstage

 

[Ryusuta]

TheGoodGuava

I would say that it is indeed personal bias. You say that Marth always spaces better, but that makes zero sense whatsoever because Lucina and Marth have the absolute EXACT same frame data. Unless you're talking about the sub-pixel difference in their reach, which would be a bit silly. That would be like saying Lucina's better at evading because she's three pixels shorter.

The advantages are fairly clear-cut: she usually does more damage in combos and she is hindered significantly less when she spaces incorrectly and/or the opponent is too good at avoiding tippers. Those situations are by no means uncommon. And finally, she has the advantage of knowing FOR SURE when a kill option will actually net a kill if it hits. You might not think it's a big deal, but it really is. Whether it's enough to mitigate the advantages Marth has (and there's no mistaking he has some decent ones) is up for discussion, but those times are definitely legitimate.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ryusuta
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. Marth spaces "better" in the sense that he gets more reward out of doing so and is generally safer because of the extra 1 - 2 frames of shieldstun at the tip which may seem like something you don't need to worry about at first but ends up being a big thing.

Yes, the disadvantages/advantages are clear it and depends on how you weight them. Do you want to strive for extremely precise spacing and kill at 60 or do you want to be more consistent and kill at 110. Do you want to straight up kill people off stage or do you want to hit someone far enough that they can't make it back (which I would argue is less important in a game where the top tiers almost all have extremely strong recoveries).

Since I value Marth's advantages over Lucina I choose to both play Marth and place him higher on my personal tier list because he has had stronger results since the beginning, arguably better theory, and more effective tools

 

[Jaypen7]

Ok, so just remember with Marth you're not guaranteed to hit tippers all the time. So I'm gonna twist Guavo's question: Do you want to strive for extremely precise spacing and HOPEFULLY kill at 40-60 or be more consistent and kill at 80-100? But no, Marth is better than Lucina of course, but in the same way 1.1>1.0. He's not THAT much better

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Honestly, it's hard to decide. She used to be always one step below Marth, but recent buffs have been shorting the gap and Lucina fares better in some matchups. She will be like 3 places below him in the future IMO

 

[Caryslan]

Just curious, how many people think Lucina is better then Roy?

If we take the two characters based on Marth's gameplay and compare them.

Lucina is just an underrated character in my opinion. So many people refuse to see her as anything more the "Training Wheels Marth"

The lack of a sweet-spot in the tip or the center of the blade can often save her hide in matchups that Marth or Roy would struggle with. Hell, she has won matches that I lost playing as Roy, simply because I did not have to worry about an opponent dodging the center of my blade.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Just curious, how many people think Lucina is better then Roy?

If we take the two characters based on Marth's gameplay and compare them.

Lucina is just an underrated character in my opinion. So many people refuse to see her as anything more the "Training Wheels Marth"

The lack of a sweet-spot in the tip or the center of the blade can often save her hide in matchups that Marth or Roy would struggle with. Hell, she has won matches that I lost playing as Roy, simply because I did not have to worry about an opponent dodging the center of my blade.

Roy is commonly thought to be a bottom tier and I can sort of see why, his neutral is bad and his disadvantage is one of the worst in the game, most of the time beating him boils down to winning the neutral literally once and then gimping him

 

[Floor]

Roy is commonly thought to be a bottom tier and I can sort of see why, his neutral is bad and his disadvantage is one of the worst in the game, most of the time beating him boils down to winning the neutral literally once and then gimping him

I've seen some pretty nice Roy's, but I agree. He has more differences then Marcina and a totally different feel. He's deadly at a frame advantage, but that's about it. At a farame disadvantage, he's almost combo meat. All one needs to do is wait patiently for Roy to overextend himself before going for the gimp. Ive gotten way to aggressive against Roy as Lucina and have paid the price for it

 

[Ryusuta]

The problem with Roy is that the idea behind him has always been fundamentally flawed. For most sword users, the sword is a valuable tool because it allows for spacing and applying safe damage. But because Roy's sweet spot is on the handle, he can't really use the sword as a... well... a sword, because his tip attacks are incredibly weak. He has to fight up close and personal, where he can't take as much advantage of the disjointed hitbox.

On paper, an "opposite" of Marth makes perfect sense. The problem is, it just doesn't work for that style. He's not fast enough to match hits up close and his tippers are incredibly weak.

He's better than his Melee incarnation (aka Crouch Cancel McGee), but that's not saying much because the premise behind him just simply doesn't work. Roy isn't helpless, but he will always be in Marth and Lucina's shadow.

 

[Locuan]

In the past, I have locked threads similar to this that have devolved into flame wars. This is not the case here at all but I'm stating this as a warning.

First of all, before comparing Marth and Lucina, it's good to get familiar with their differences:
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

http://kuroganehammer.com/smash4/lucina
http://kuroganehammer.com/smash4/marth

A major thing about tipper that has not been mentioned is not just kill potential, it's the safety on shield that tippers give Marth. Hitting an opponents shield with Marth's tipper moves will guarantee more safety to him in comparison to Lucina. On the flipside, his sourspots would leave him more open than his descendant.

Anyways everyone, remember the warning and keep things healthy.

 

[Floor]

In the past, I have locked threads similar to this that have devolved into flame wars. This is not the case here at all but I'm stating this as a warning.

First of all, before comparing Marth and Lucina, it's good to get familiar with their differences:
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

http://kuroganehammer.com/smash4/lucina
http://kuroganehammer.com/smash4/marth

A major thing about tipper that has not been mentioned is not just kill potential, it's the safety on shield that tippers give Marth. Hitting an opponents shield with Marth's tipper moves will guarantee more safety to him in comparison to Lucina. On the flipside, his sourspots would leave him more open than his descendant.

Anyways everyone, remember the warning and keep things healthy.

My apologies. I was trying to start discussion of why there's usually a gap in between the two, but i suppose any sentence with "Marth" and "Lucina" in it leads to these kinds of discussions. But thanks for the warning

Anyway, it now comes to mind that i should have included Roy with it.

 

[Ryusuta]

In the past, I have locked threads similar to this that have devolved into flame wars. This is not the case here at all but I'm stating this as a warning.

First of all, before comparing Marth and Lucina, it's good to get familiar with their differences:
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

To be fair, that is really outdated. It still mentions hitlag modifiers, which haven't existed for quite awhile now. But I get what you're saying.

 

[Locuan]

To be fair, that is really outdated. It still mentions hitlag modifiers, which haven't existed for quite awhile now. But I get what you're saying.

Hitlag modifiers have always been in the game.

 

[Floor]

Hitlag modifiers have always been in the game.

I mainly focus on Lucina and haven't followed Marth much, but i think he had hit lag modifers that got taken away. I think Ryusuta was referring to that. Anyway, that's just one more thing to bridge the gap between the two, making it more reasonable to put them side by side on the tier list

 

[Shaya]

Hit lag doesn't effect shield stun anymore.
This ultimately makes Marth rewarded more for spacing tippers on shields then he did before. While his flubbed hits will not be safer.

"Marth won't always tip", well the only moves that Lucina disproportionately deals more damage is forward tilt, forward air and forward smash.
Difference is, Marth tippering with any move, including aerials, is killing a lot earlier.

Aerials are not that hard to tipper.
I shouldn't have to explain geometry to you, nor should I have to remind you the free movement factor of the air allows reliable spacing.

Marth got a significant quality of life / "ease to play" buff that you either ignore because it's extremely critical or are blissfully unaware of.
All those hitbox placement increases that they received, which is on the outer hitboxes for both characters - doubled in relative size after that patch (the overlap which prioritizes the centre blade hitbox reduced significantly). The "ease" of getting tippers on most of Marth's moveset mathematically doubled, from less than a 1/5th of his sword to closing in on a third. The argument that Marth won't always get tippers (which is true, but is completely blown out of proportion by casual players) to bolster Lucina's relevance is a figment of the imagination. Maybe there are some match ups where it'll still be a factor, but I kinda doubt it (Lucina's forward smash and how one applies it in a MU is the ONLY relevant factor she has over him).

I do respect the DB argument though.
Anyway I've done this conversation a gazillion times.
If you have strong fundamentals, control and execution, Marth will always be considerably better.
I wouldn't say opposite ends of the tier list better, but bar the Fsmash she is invalidated by his existence. Likely a "tier" weaker than he is overall (assuming many tiers in and around mid/high)

Furthermore, Marth is rewarded for spacing closer as well, with lower knockback - which is giving him longer lasting follow ups. This contrast between having sour spots and not having them is also (and always will be) critical. Marth effectively has twice the options Lucina does, there will always be a lot more room to grow and develop with him over her.

And that's fine, you're playing Lucina until you're confident enough to move onto Marth. Or you're a character loyalist who doesn't mind being cut short slightly.

 

[Ryusuta]

Hitlag modifiers have always been in the game.

I meant with regard to shield stun.

 

[Jaypen7]

Ok so there's two ways you can look at this: "Oh, Lucina is just training-wheels Marth" and "Oh, Lucina is just a slightly shorter Marth with consistent damage throughout her blade." If you picked the first choice, play with Marth. If you picked the second choice, play Lucina. Worry about the details once you've gotten the fundamentals down. Either way, neither are really that safe on shield unless you retreat on Fair and whatever kills you don't get with Marth's tilts before around 140 you can get with Lucina's smash attacks. I'm pretty sure you can avoid most of the jab setups so it really comes down to you predicting on what the opponent would do. Also Lucina generally kills offstage at 110-120. But yes Marth is better (in my opinion not by much but enough to note that he is), but whether it's enough to negate Lucina's existence/make you switch to Marth is completely up to you. Leave it at that please because there's really no need to keep arguing about this. Like c'mon, are some of you guys really coming onto the Lucina boards to tell us that Marth nearly negates our main's existence? and to switch to Marth as well? Not cool

 

[Nah]

The main problem I think with trying to determine how far apart apart Marth and Lucina are on a tier list, or where she should be in general, or who's better, is that Lucina's a very rare character in tournaments, particularly at anything beyond a local level. There's little footage to use for analysis and comparison, which usually just leaves us with theorycraft, which ultimately leads nowhere and you just seeing the same tired arguments over and over again (usually boiling down to "can Marf tipper consistently/when he needs to?"). If we had more high level Lucina sets to watch (and watch them along with high level Marth sets) we could try and see if her blade is actually more often a boon or a hindrance to her.

Their shield safety is actually pretty similar though. Both tipper and sourspot hits for Marth are rarely more than a couple of frames different from Lucina's hits. Like for example:

Spoiler: Dtilt

Marth: -3 (sour), -2 (tip)
Lucina: -3

Spoiler: Fair

Marth: -3 (sour) -1 (tip)
Lucina: -1

From here btw: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet..._g0KWgl4IOjXQ/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=101616164

I'll say though that Marth scares me more than Lucina does for the most part.

 

[Shaya]

Ok so there's two ways you can look at this: "Oh, Lucina is just training-wheels Marth" and "Oh, Lucina is just a slightly shorter Marth with consistent damage throughout her blade." If you picked the first choice, play with Marth. If you picked the second choice, play Lucina. Worry about the details once you've gotten the fundamentals down. Either way, neither are really that safe on shield unless you retreat on Fair and whatever kills you don't get with Marth's tilts before around 140 you can get with Lucina's smash attacks. I'm pretty sure you can avoid most of the jab setups so it really comes down to you predicting on what the opponent would do. Also Lucina generally kills offstage at 110-120. But yes Marth is better (in my opinion not by much but enough to note that he is), but whether it's enough to negate Lucina's existence/make you switch to Marth is completely up to you. Leave it at that please because there's really no need to keep arguing about this. Like c'mon, are some of you guys really coming onto the Lucina boards to tell us that Marth nearly negates our main's existence? and to switch to Marth as well? Not cool

Competitively negates.
Both theoretically (subjective) and in practice.
I know it's basically impossible to say something like that without the emotions flying. But it seems like a straight forward logical conclusion to ... a lot of people?

An extreme example of what I mean by "negates": let's pretend that there's a Mario clone that is exactly the same as Mario except he does 0.25% less per hit (maybe slight extra damage elsewhere). Their differences would be so minimal that in a tier list they'd probably be next to each other, but the original Mario himself invalidates this clone. This Mario clone has a fancy set of skins, unique voices and effects, but competitively, it's still a strictly worse [albeit only slightly] Mario, but people still play Oiram because he's available and they have their personal reasons. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong for playing Oiram for their personal reasons, but if they attended a tournament and barely lost with Oiram I'd be sure to remind them they could have used the same set of skills and potentially done better.

If you are not a competitive player, it doesn't matter.
If you are competitive then you it's your choice and you should be fully aware of what that choice means.

I didn't say to switch to Marth willy nilly though, who you ultimately use is up to you (although I'm the type to tell our local Jiggs main that you could do so much better, he acknowledges what he's doing, is it that hard for some? "playing to win" is inherent to competitive play after all). If you've reached a wall with Lucina (or mastered her) and want to go further with essentially the exact same character, Marth is there; that's the crux of my argument. Before you get there, there isn't really a huge reason to play one over another.

Esteem is something important to a player for their continual development, I'm not trying to disavow your pride in playing Lucina. But there are dangers (see: Pikachu players) when they so strongly believe something that disconnects them from the rest of the metagame.

 

[Nika]

To answer the original question, I'd say she's exactly one place below Marth. At this point I think their main practical differences are that Marth's aerials kill more reliably and Lucina's neutral game is slightly better (more reliable damage and combos). The aerials are important enough to put him above her, but they have nearly identical matchup spreads, play styles, and advantages/disadvantages. Sometimes Marth gets kills Lucina doesn't, and sometimes Lucina gets kills Marth doesn't, but they basically balance out.

Honestly I believe there has been some groupthink where early on, competitive players dismissed Lucina as an inferior clone (like Shaya is doing here) and just took that as established truth forever. That means you hear the same arguments over and over, and it also means there are no high-level Lucina mains because they switched away from her. It's hard to prove this but I think if high-level players mained her, she'd be seeing the same results as Marth. (I'm hoping to do it myself.)

I agree with a lot of Ryusuta's points about some of her advantages - they're small, but they pretty much offset Marth's in my opinion.

PS: Roy is pretty bad, and is also a different enough character that he doesn't necessarily fit into this discussion.

 

[Shaya]

Sometimes Marth gets kills Lucina doesn't, and sometimes Lucina gets kills Marth doesn't, but they basically balance out.

If this were the case (balancing out), people would be playing Lucina more. But in reality it's Lucina's forward smash vs Marth's Ftilt, Nair, Bair, Uair, Fair.
Who has more options to kill? Marth
Varied options are what scale at higher levels of play.
If I just have to avoid forward smash to survive vs having 5+ stronger raw/neutral strong KO tools, what's going to be easier for you to achieve?

And before we go there, nair1 is not a set up that works offline (it's a telegraphed motion ; 30 frame start up), aerial DB1 doesn't combo into nair1 until very high percent as well. Jab into fsmash is something that rarely if ever works offline. There are no set ups into forward smash that consistently work. Meanwhile our sour jab strings or traps into tipper aerials at kill percent. A jab which stops working for you earlier than ours, with follow ups that won't kill while it does.

Also "better neutral" because of more reliable damage and combos? Remember: we have sour moves that allow those 'reliable combos' to last noticeably longer on Marth.
The thing about Lucina, is that she has no reason not to space at her tip, and unlike Marth that positioning would result in more consistent follow ups/damage at early to mid windows.

Honestly I believe there has been some groupthink where early on, competitive players dismissed Lucina as an inferior clone (like Shaya is doing here) and just took that as established truth forever. That means you hear the same arguments over and over, and it also means there are no high-level Lucina mains because they switched away from her. It's hard to prove this but I think if high-level players mained her, she'd be seeing the same results as Marth. (I'm hoping to do it myself.)

It's unfortunate that Lucina has always had a mechanical short-selling. To me the main thing that separates them now is the fact that marth's tippers on a wide array of KO moves are a lot easier to space for than before. There's a logical reason why the balance team made her forward tilt and forward air essentially the same safety and damage as Marths (and they could continue to buff her like this because it would be justified, it wouldn't be if she was as strong overall), because spacing those two moves for tippers is very easy, and so are several other tools.
And this one major point is one which is relatively new, prior to fully understanding the impact of this I was publicly saying Marth and Lucina are the closest in strength they've ever been, that was assuming Marth was as hard to space as well with as before.

If people switched off of Lucina and were not getting the same or more success with the new character, why wouldn't they go back to her?
If high level players mained her, she would be getting similar results to Marth, I can accept that as valid (this is a well balanced game after all, and player skill means a lot more than character choice a lot of the time). But at what stage is ignoring the option spread difference between the two just plain ignorance? Why are people's results with Marth getting better after the buffs significantly while Lucina falls further into non-existence?
Is it a groupthink conspiracy? Or are people able to comprehend the differences and the risks/rewards themselves?
It all comes down to the diversity in options.

 

[Ryusuta]

Shaya, I genuinely think that your view on this might be a little skewed. There are a TON of factors that can go into why a character isn't represented more. Yoshi has relatively terrible tournament results and yet Japan still considers him one of the best characters in the game. Are they wrong?

Your Mario analogy was a little inaccurate because I can point out specific examples of high-level tournament Marth players that failed to hit ANY meaningful tippers whatsoever in their matches and indeed would have benefited from the balanced blade. I don't mean specific points in time, I mean whole matches, 2 out of 3. There is this perception that the best Marth players are constantly hitting tippers when that is just not the case, no matter what level you play on.

Let me see if I can come up with an analogy that explains competitive margin of error. This isn't a perfect comparison, but work with me on this one.

In Team Fortress 2, the Soldier class uses a rocket launcher as his primary weapon. He has an alternative weapon called the Direct Hit. The damage output of the Direct Hit is significantly higher than that of the Rocket Launcher, the projectiles fire MUCH faster, and it mini-crits (1.35x damage) on targets sent flying by explosions. This comes at the cost of a much tighter explosion radius. Now in a 1v1 environment (MGE is what the mode is called), you would think that the best Soldiers would always use the Direct Hit. After all, they're better at leading targets and aiming, and you don't need the extra blast radius for crowd control or Kritzkrieg. You can 2-shot a Soldier more easily with the Direct hit, too. If these guys are the best of the best, why NOT deal as much damage as possible?

The answer is because the extra margin of error makes a real difference. They don't have to be 100% precise and can control space and do damage more easily because of it.

Yes, there are other factors and it's not a fantastic analogy, but the more widespread damage/knockback is a completely valid reason to favor Lucina.

And if you don't favor Lucina? Not a problem! Marth's tippers his non-tip combos are WORTH using him over Lucina for. I'm not anti-Marth. If Marth feels like the better choice, then by all means use him. He might be the better choice when all is said and done. But the topic is a lot more complex than you're trying to make it.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

One large advantage that I feel Lucina has over Marth is that her landing options are much better than his due to the base hitbox being much safer on shield. This is really helpful against a lot of characters whom Marth has a very difficult time escaping juggles from, such as Mario and Captain Falcon.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I see Lucina as right below Marth. I dont understand why you would ever put her in her own tier at this point or separate them THAT much. While yes Marth is overall better, some people do indeed prefer the more consistent options that Lucina has. Shes right below Marth.

 

[Floor]

I think it's worth noting that Lucina's tournament representation isn't quite nonexistent. I mean, of course Sheik Diddy Cloud Bayo and other high/top tiers have much more tournament representation, but I've found about as much Lucina in tournaments as Marth. A bit less, but in the ball park. Not to mention, both Marth and Lucina are really using their buffs to actually win.

I admit that Marth is used more and might be inherently "better" but only by a small margin that puts him one slot above Lucina on the tier list. Both are viable options, at least for smaller scale tournaments. It all comes down to skill level and i think a lot of high level players use top tiers almost blindly. Nothing against players like ZeRo here, but there's more to smash and tier lists then maining only top tiers.

The reason Marth and Lucina have such little representation is because a tier list creates a compounding snowball effect, or something like that. People want to main top tier characters so they consult the tier list. The tier list reflects characters who are played a lot thus having more tournament success, which makes even more people flock to top tiers.

Point is, if more people would use Marcina, id predict 3/5 would use marth, 2/5 would use Lucina

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Shaya, I genuinely think that your view on this might be a little skewed. There are a TON of factors that can go into why a character isn't represented more. Yoshi has relatively terrible tournament results and yet Japan still considers him one of the best characters in the game. Are they wrong?

Your Mario analogy was a little inaccurate because I can point out specific examples of high-level tournament Marth players that failed to hit ANY meaningful tippers whatsoever in their matches and indeed would have benefited from the balanced blade. I don't mean specific points in time, I mean whole matches, 2 out of 3. There is this perception that the best Marth players are constantly hitting tippers when that is just not the case, no matter what level you play on.

Let me see if I can come up with an analogy that explains competitive margin of error. This isn't a perfect comparison, but work with me on this one.

In Team Fortress 2, the Soldier class uses a rocket launcher as his primary weapon. He has an alternative weapon called the Direct Hit. The damage output of the Direct Hit is significantly higher than that of the Rocket Launcher, the projectiles fire MUCH faster, and it mini-crits (1.35x damage) on targets sent flying by explosions. This comes at the cost of a much tighter explosion radius. Now in a 1v1 environment (MGE is what the mode is called), you would think that the best Soldiers would always use the Direct Hit. After all, they're better at leading targets and aiming, and you don't need the extra blast radius for crowd control or Kritzkrieg. You can 2-shot a Soldier more easily with the Direct hit, too. If these guys are the best of the best, why NOT deal as much damage as possible?

The answer is because the extra margin of error makes a real difference. They don't have to be 100% precise and can control space and do damage more easily because of it.

Yes, there are other factors and it's not a fantastic analogy, but the more widespread damage/knockback is a completely valid reason to favor Lucina.

And if you don't favor Lucina? Not a problem! Marth's tippers his non-tip combos are WORTH using him over Lucina for. I'm not anti-Marth. If Marth feels like the better choice, then by all means use him. He might be the better choice when all is said and done. But the topic is a lot more complex than you're trying to make it.

Your analogy actually demonstrates the difference in potential. Yes while one is easier to use, it has less potential and is a worse option than the direct hit IF you can use the weapon efficiently. The same thing goes for Marth and Lucina, while Lucina is much easier to use she has a lot less potential than Marth and is therefore less viable than him.

 

[Elray]

Couldn't Lucina be used as an in-your-face fighter like Roy? She may not have a tipper, but that also means that she doesn't have to space her attacks.

 

[Floor]

Lucina is much easier to use she has a lot less potential than Marth and is therefore less viable than him.

I wouldn't say a lot less. Less? ..... okay maybe, but not by much.

Couldn't Lucina be used as an in-your-face fighter like Roy? She may not have a tipper, but that also means that she doesn't have to space her attacks.

She needs to space if you're going to play her effectively. No tipper means that there's no detriment when the opponent closes in or doesn't let you space, but you still need to maximize your range, as does any character (except Roy)

 

[Ryusuta]

Couldn't Lucina be used as an in-your-face fighter like Roy? She may not have a tipper, but that also means that she doesn't have to space her attacks.

The problem with that is that Roy is a worse character than BOTH of them because his gameplay style is inherently contradictory and his fast falling ends up being a massive liability./