Where is Lucina on the Tier List, Relative to Marth?

[TheGoodGuava]

Of the 13 moves False landed that first game, 5 were tippers. I'm confident that Lucina would have been at at least the same percent. I would do the math to figure out what percent fox would be at if he were fighting Lucina, but I have to leave for work in like 10 minutes lol, maybe later today. Lucina defenitely would've killed with that fsmash.

but would Lucina even be in the same situation to get that fsmash? Yes, she would have killed with it if she were in the same exact situation, but would Dugen even be where he was on the stage to get Fsmashed in the first place or would he hitting Lucinas shield with tilts center stage at 50%

 

[Jenna Zant]

I'd put her right below Roy, who's slightly below Marth.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'd put her right below Roy, who's slightly below Marth.

Roy is like 4 tiers below Marth, aka bottom tier. Lucina is 2 tiers below him at most, personally I put her somewhere between 26 - 30 considering I put Marth at 23 on my own tier list

 

[Airpoizon]

Roy is like 4 tiers below Marth, aka bottom tier. Lucina is 2 tiers below him at most, personally I put her somewhere between 26 - 30 considering I put Marth at 23 on my own tier list

Marth hoestly is as overrated as Link at this point, he is no where close to 23rd. Maybe around mid 30s. Also people under estimate Roy and Lucina just because of Marth being overrated.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Marth hoestly is as overrated as Link at this point, he is no where close to 23rd. Maybe around mid 30s. Also people under estimate Roy and Lucina just because of Marth being overrated.

I would like to remind you Marth results are that of a top 15 character and his theory is absolutely amazing. This means Lucinas is close, but as Shaya said Marth nearly invalidates her as a character. Roy is just bad, trying to defend a character with one of the worst disadvantage states in the game AND a horrible neutral is silly. Hes bottom tier just like he was in Melee

 

[Jenna Zant]

I would like to remind you Marth results are that of a top 15 character and his theory is absolutely amazing. This means Lucinas is close, but as Shaya said Marth nearly invalidates her as a character. Roy is just bad, trying to defend a character with one of the worst disadvantage states in the game AND a horrible neutral is silly. Hes bottom tier just like he was in Melee

Roy isn't bad. You've clearly got no clue what you're talking about. He's fast, he's got good combos, he's strong, he has kill confirms. He's got moves that are safe on shield (despite popular belief that he doesn't.) and he's got a decent neutral game. His only two downsides are that his reach isn't as large as Marth's and his recovery isn't the best. Sounds like a mid tier character to me, much like Marth and Lucina. The only thing Roy is missing which is making him "bottom tier" is his lack of results.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

"Shaya says this, Shaya says that"

I don't wanna be that guy, but come on, one person can't know everything about smash.

It's possible for someone like him to be wrong, so let's prove him wrong. I don't think Lucina gets invalidated because of Marth.

 

[Airpoizon]

Roy isn't bad. You've clearly got no clue what you're talking about. He's fast, he's got good combos, he's strong, he has kill confirms. He's got moves that are safe on shield (despite popular belief that he doesn't.) and he's got a decent neutral game. His only two downsides are that his reach isn't as large as Marth's and his recovery isn't the best. Sounds like a mid tier character to me, much like Marth and Lucina. The only thing Roy is missing which is making him "bottom tier" is his lack of results.

Don't forget the fact that about his "poor punish game" despite a ton of his attacks being super strong and f-tilt and u-tilt being both fast and killing at a reasonable percent.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

His only two downsides are that his reach isn't as large as Marth's and his recovery isn't the best. Sounds like a mid tier character to me, much like Marth and Lucina.

Im sorry i stopped reading after this

Lets see why Roy is bad
-nothing of his autocancels
-poor cqc
-**** tier recovery
-easily outspaced despite being a sword user
-lack of effective options in the neutral make him predictable and easy to beat
-one of the absolute worse disadvantage states in the game, almost as bad as Little Mac
-combo food
-easily walled out
-easily camped
-easily juggled

Now what does Roy actually have going for him?
-half decent punish game if he can actually get in
-low landing lag
-low startup
-good overall mobility

Roy does NOT have the makings of a mid tier. He has garbage results, horrible theory, no notable mains mains and MAYBE one good top/high tier matchup.

"Shaya says this, Shaya says that"

I don't wanna be that guy, but come on, one person can't know everything about smash.

It's possible for someone like him to be wrong, so let's prove him wrong. I don't think Lucina gets invalidated because of Marth.

Sorry that I agreed with one thing he said? Marth would invalidate Lucina to me if it weren't for 3 matchups that I prefer her in, that doesn't mean shes significantly worse than Marth like Esam has her on his list, it just means that Marth generally does better than her. They both clearly outclass Roy

Don't forget the fact that about his "poor punish game" despite a ton of his attacks being super strong and f-tilt and u-tilt being both fast and killing at a reasonable percent.

Nobody even brought up Roy's punish game until you just now, and either way this topic doesn't really involve him so I would rather just drop the subject all together. Also, I have no idea where the hell you got the idea that Link is over rated, everyone puts him as bottom 20.

 

[Dozr]

According to Kuroganehammer's website (frame data for smash 4) I see a consistent trend. Lucina's aerials have at most 1.6% less damage than Marth's tippers. Fair and Bair have either 1% or .7% less respectively. UpAir has 1.6% less, and Dair has 1.7% less. Nair1 has .8% less, and Nair2 has 1% less.

The most commonly used aerials? Fair and Bair for myself, with Upair being next, and I personally rarely use Dair in a serious match.

Ground moves?

Marth advantages in % with a tipper:
Jab1: 1.615%
Jab 2: 1.25%
Dash atk: 1.015%
Ftilt: 1.075%
etc
Lucina damage advantage compared to non tippers:
Jab1: +.325%
Jab2: +.75%
Dash atk: +.975%
Ftilt: +1.925%
etc you can look these up yourselves.


When you look at the numbers Kurogane has recorded, it's hard to make a case that tippers matter over the course of a match. When not hitting the tip, Marth is outdamaged by lucina 100% of the time in every case I've seen listed here, even if only by a little. The damge the two characters deal when played properly would seem to be about equal if marth can land about 50% tippers. I personally think that Marth and Lucina are far too similar to be put anywhere on a tierlist besides side-by-side. They are practically equal in all aspects except damage at different ranges, and even with this difference, Lucina will outdamage marth unless he can land at least 50% of tippered moves to approximately equate Lucina's damage. Marth kills earlier with tippers, he struggles to kill late because of his soft hits. Lucina can't kill with fmash before ~70%, but her Fsmash is still absurdly powerful as-is, and is not made less amazing by the potential of a tippered one on marth. These characters seem to me to be as close in power as Pit/Dark pit, who are nearly universally regarded as the same character. With only a few differences in terms of nuanced effects, Marth and Lucina are two sides of the same coin.

If I had to rank their standing on a tier list, I'd put them at outside of the top 20, but at least higher than the bottom 26. Essentially, dead middle of the pack. I'd say they are only clearly outclassed by Cloud, Sheik, Rosa, Fox, Ryu, Mario, Diddy, Sonic, Bayonetta, Corrin, ZSS, Villager, Pikachu, Mewtwo, and Meta Knight. After those, I'd say they are on par with Mega Man, Yoshi, Cap Falcon, Ness, Wario, Toon Link, ROB, Pit/Dark Pit, Greninja, Shulk, Link, and Luigi.

This is from my personal experience in the matchup between Marth/Lucina and the characters mentioned. I believe that any character I haven't mentioned is a weaker character than Marth/Lucina, or that the matchup of Marth/Lucina is favored when against said characters.

What do you guys think? Does that sound about right? Or do Marth and Lucina somehow have less usability and worse matchups than the likes of WiiFit and Lucas?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

According to Kuroganehammer's website (frame data for smash 4) I see a consistent trend. Lucina's aerials have at most 1.6% less damage than Marth's tippers. Fair and Bair have either 1% or .7% less respectively. UpAir has 1.6% less, and Dair has 1.7% less. Nair1 has .8% less, and Nair2 has 1% less.

The most commonly used aerials? Fair and Bair for myself, with Upair being next, and I personally rarely use Dair in a serious match.

Ground moves?

Marth advantages in % with a tipper:
Jab1: 1.615%
Jab 2: 1.25%
Dash atk: 1.015%
Ftilt: 1.075%
etc
Lucina damage advantage compared to non tippers:
Jab1: +.325%
Jab2: +.75%
Dash atk: +.975%
Ftilt: +1.925%
etc you can look these up yourselves.


When you look at the numbers Kurogane has recorded, it's hard to make a case that tippers matter over the course of a match. When not hitting the tip, Marth is outdamaged by lucina 100% of the time in every case I've seen listed here, even if only by a little. The damge the two characters deal when played properly would seem to be about equal if marth can land about 50% tippers. I personally think that Marth and Lucina are far too similar to be put anywhere on a tierlist besides side-by-side. They are practically equal in all aspects except damage at different ranges, and even with this difference, Lucina will outdamage marth unless he can land at least 50% of tippered moves to approximately equate Lucina's damage. Marth kills earlier with tippers, he struggles to kill late because of his soft hits. Lucina can't kill with fmash before ~70%, but her Fsmash is still absurdly powerful as-is, and is not made less amazing by the potential of a tippered one on marth. These characters seem to me to be as close in power as Pit/Dark pit, who are nearly universally regarded as the same character. With only a few differences in terms of nuanced effects, Marth and Lucina are two sides of the same coin.

If I had to rank their standing on a tier list, I'd put them at outside of the top 20, but at least higher than the bottom 26. Essentially, dead middle of the pack. I'd say they are only clearly outclassed by Cloud, Sheik, Rosa, Fox, Ryu, Mario, Diddy, Sonic, Bayonetta, Corrin, ZSS, Villager, Pikachu, Mewtwo, and Meta Knight. After those, I'd say they are on par with Mega Man, Yoshi, Cap Falcon, Ness, Wario, Toon Link, ROB, Pit/Dark Pit, Greninja, Shulk, Link, and Luigi.

This is from my personal experience in the matchup between Marth/Lucina and the characters mentioned. I believe that any character I haven't mentioned is a weaker character than Marth/Lucina, or that the matchup of Marth/Lucina is favored when against said characters.

What do you guys think? Does that sound about right? Or do Marth and Lucina somehow have less usability and worse matchups than the likes of WiiFit and Lucas?

They clearly outclass characters like WiiFit and Lucas, they do well against Rosa, Fox, Bayo, Corrin, and Mario while also beating or going even with everyone that you put in the same group as them aside from TL and MM imo

The three best Marth mains at the moment have MU spreads all out, and while yes there are some inconsistencies between the three he does have the spread of a high tier character who is clearly a cut above the characters you grouped them with

Mr. E

Spoiler

Pugwest

Spoiler

False

Spoiler

According to False's chart (what the official tier list thread generally thought was the best of the three), he only has 2 40:60 MUs and 5 45:55s

 

[ShadowKing]

I would put her higher then Lucas and wiifit and lower then Roy and Marth because Lucina does have the ability to kill early and great options to combo, not to mention that the u-smash has a hitbox outside of the blade.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I would put her higher then Lucas and wiifit and lower then Roy and Marth because Lucina does have the ability to kill early and great options to combo, not to mention that the u-smash has a hitbox outside of the blade.

The only strength Roy has over EITHER of them is his combo game, Lucina/Marth both win at literally everything else. Roy is a flawed character who ends up as bottom/low tier almost every tier list except Eventhubs bull**** while Lucina and Marth who have potential for high tier

I have no idea where you people get the idea that Roy is mid tier

 

[Jaypen7]

I would put her higher then Lucas and wiifit and lower then Roy and Marth because Lucina does have the ability to kill early and great options to combo, not to mention that the u-smash has a hitbox outside of the blade.

How is Roy better than Lucina when we out-do you at everything but combos at low percents. But anyways we should all agree that Lucina should be lower by no more than two tiers simply because she has no results to backup her theory unlike Marth who has False, Mr. E, and Pugwest

 

[Cardboardtubeknight]

Top tier players fear vaginas

 

[Dozr]

They clearly outclass characters like WiiFit and Lucas, they do well against Rosa, Fox, Bayo, Corrin, and Mario while also beating or going even with everyone that you put in the same group as them aside from TL and MM imo

The three best Marth mains at the moment have MU spreads all out, and while yes there are some inconsistencies between the three he does have the spread of a high tier character who is clearly a cut above the characters you grouped them with

Mr. E

Spoiler

View attachment 109602

Pugwest

Spoiler

View attachment 109603

False

Spoiler

View attachment 109604

According to False's chart (what the official tier list thread generally thought was the best of the three), he only has 2 40:60 MUs and 5 45:55s

I agree with this way of looking at things. By looking at matchups it's easy to see that Marth and Lucina are solid characters. They have tools, and can hold their own in many matchups. They can struggle with the Top-Tiers because that is what made the top-tiers into the top-tiers in the first place. The mere fact that they have tools that can handle top-tier characters helps add them to the realm of "if played perfectly, can handle most any matchup", which is pretty good if you ask me.

 

[Floor]

Marth has more KO potential half the time, but that's all im giving him when we compare apples and female apples and fire apples.

As many have posted, most hits in a match aren't tippers and to say "you need to space properly" doesn't really work as an argument. You can be the best spacer in the world, but you could go up against the best person in the world at preventing you from spacing. You can "git gud" but so can you're opponent.

For me, Marth pays off best when you are fighting someone you know you can beat but Lucina is safer against people you know are great and unsure you can beat.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

As someone who has recently started attending tourneys, I can say that Lucina is around mid-tier, and this is just personal experience but, Lucina and Roy overall do more wonders for me than Marth, maybe due to the fact that a lot of players around here are so good at closing the gap, and while I have faced my fair share of Marth players around here, only a very handful knew how to space properly, and even then, I don't give them much of a chance, since I like to play rushdown quite I bit.

 

[Nika]

Just thought I'd throw in that I actually think Lucina has a decent number of positive or even matchups with top and high tiers.

Strong advantage: Ness, Luigi
Slight advantage: Ryu, Pikachu, Yoshi
Even: Rosalina, Bayo, ZSS, Captain Falcon, Mewtwo, Mario
Slight disadvantage: Cloud, MK, Corrin, Sonic
Strong disadvantage: Sheik, Fox, Villager, Toon Link, Diddy, Bowser (who I think is high tier)

So there are more negative than positive matchups, but she holds up pretty well against quite a few of the top 20.

 

[Jaypen7]

Just thought I'd throw in that I actually think Lucina has a decent number of positive or even matchups with top and high tiers.

Strong advantage: Ness, Luigi
Slight advantage: Ryu, Pikachu, Yoshi
Even: Rosalina, Bayo, ZSS, Captain Falcon, Mewtwo, Mario
Slight disadvantage: Cloud, MK, Corrin, Sonic
Strong disadvantage: Sheik, Fox, Villager, Toon Link, Diddy, Bowser (who I think is high tier)

So there are more negative than positive matchups, but she holds up pretty well against quite a few of the top 20.

What makes you think we have a slight advantage over Pikachu and lose to Bowser badly?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Just thought I'd throw in that I actually think Lucina has a decent number of positive or even matchups with top and high tiers.

Strong advantage: Ness, Luigi
Slight advantage: Ryu, Pikachu, Yoshi
Even: Rosalina, Bayo, ZSS, Captain Falcon, Mewtwo, Mario
Slight disadvantage: Cloud, MK, Corrin, Sonic
Strong disadvantage: Sheik, Fox, Villager, Toon Link, Diddy, Bowser (who I think is high tier)

So there are more negative than positive matchups, but she holds up pretty well against quite a few of the top 20.

I wouldn't say she beats Pikachu, or even go even with him. I personally think its a bit of a hard matchup for her because of how good Pikachu's mobility is. Shes a character that wants to keep people out and at a mid range which in theory should counter Pikachu pretty well because of his lack of range but since Pikachu has a projectile he can just camp and play long range and then Quick Attack in to punish most mistakes making it even harder. He out-combos her, has better mobility, and can basically ignore her amazing walling/footsies game (which is what most of her neutral is made up of) then gimp her extremely well. Personally I think its a slight disadvantage

 

[Nika]

Yeah, that's just based on my personal experience. I haven't played a ton of great Pikachus but I rarely lose to one.

Bowser on the other hand... it feels like a matchup Lucina SHOULD win, but whenever I play a good Bowser I get completely destroyed. His run speed is fast enough that he can catch up to her on the ground, and her air speed is bad enough that she can get punished if you stick to aerials. And his punish game is apocalyptic. The only hope is getting him off stage and edge guarding, but good Bowsers can mix up their recovery enough to get back eventually.

 

[Uncle Tonkle]

Obviously Lucina is better. She can change her hair color on the fly, something fabulous like this any Marth main would only dream of. On top of that, her outfit is infinitely more stylish (have you seen those sleeves) and she'll never have to put up with people telling her she's not the gender she's portrayed as. She may have a slightly shorter sword, but that's just because Marth is compensating.

With all these things kept in mind, I think nobody can honestly argue that Lucina deserves at least a few spots above Marth in the tier list.




All jokes aside, another tool that we should keep in mind is PP jab and uptilt. Lucina actually continues to slide while performing these attacks, while Marth suddenly stops and stands in place. I'm not that used to doing it yet, but it seems to be a nice option for stuffing approaches. Marth can probably just run back and turnaround ftilt for the same effect, but the angle is harder to follow up from at lower percents. This is actually quite a bit of a difference for damage output and stage positioning for something so seemingly small. It overall makes it easier to wall out a bunch of characters and PP uptilt is actually a very good tool in covering more space on an opponent's landing when they don't have amazing airspeed. It can also be done out of a dash dance, which is a nice way to cover yourself if they try to approach on your backdash. You can also turnaround dancing blade though, which works for both characters but I feel like Lucina has a more reliable DB anyways.

Also, Lucina is slightly better at crossing up shields in tricky ways because of the shieldstun.

I don't know exactly how important these are when compared to early kills and added shieldstun from tippers yet, but I feel like they should at least be considered. Overall I'd put Marth and Lucina at about the same spot right now, but we definitely don't know enough to say for sure yet.

 

[Jaypen7]

All jokes aside, another tool that we should keep in mind is PP jab and uptilt. Lucina actually continues to slide while performing these attacks, while Marth suddenly stops and stands in place. I'm not that used to doing it yet, but it seems to be a nice option for stuffing approaches. Marth can probably just run back and turnaround ftilt for the same effect, but the angle is harder to follow up from at lower percents. This is actually quite a bit of a difference for damage output and stage positioning for something so seemingly small. It overall makes it easier to wall out a bunch of characters and PP uptilt is actually a very good tool in covering more space on an opponent's landing when they don't have amazing airspeed. It can also be done out of a dash dance, which is a nice way to cover yourself if they try to approach on your backdash. You can also turnaround dancing blade though, which works for both characters but I feel like Lucina has a more reliable DB anyways.

Also, Lucina is slightly better at crossing up shields in tricky ways because of the shieldstun.

I don't know exactly how important these are when compared to early kills and added shieldstun from tippers yet, but I feel like they should at least be considered. Overall I'd put Marth and Lucina at about the same spot right now, but we definitely don't know enough to say for sure yet.

I actually forgot about this, shame on me. But the problem is no one mains Lucina therefore we don't really know the true potential to Lucina's sliding jab or U tilt

 

[FamilyTeam]

Just passing by to post this:

I see some people sometimes posting stuff like "Marth has more range than Lucina" and "Marth hits people on plaftorms, Lucina doesn't."
I'm not gonna deny that is the truth. I also can't really say those two really make a difference considering how minuscule those differences are.

 

[Kopaka355]

Personally I think she is right next to marth, because she pretty much has the same damage output and combo potential. I like using her more because I can push easier and at times be aggressive

 

[Flowen231]

Well OP (if you're still here). The reason Marth is always placed much higher than Lucina is because optimal play for both of them relies on the same exact playstyle and tricks, and Marth by nature gets more damage, kill power, and safety out of his tippers even though Lucina likes to keep opponents at her tip as well. It's not much on paper when you consider that it's humanly impossible to tipper every single hit, but really the only notable tools that Lucina has that are superior to Marth are up smash from the ground for nice read kills, and her jab>Fsmash setup since a non tip won't have enough hitstun to work at low percents for Marth, and they can smash DI away from a tipper jab. Those two things alone don't make up for the added damage and kill power on almost everything else the characters can do.

The biggest reason, however as to why Marth is better is because most top tiers like to space close to or out of tipper range for safety (Mario is a character that likes to space at just about tipper range too) which just makes getting those tipper rewards easier and more consistent. Even though it's marginal in most cases, Marth has a better matchup spread versus more characters than Lucina. I'm not gonna say that Luci is totally worse though, some characters are difficult to space around, and landing crucial tippers against them is not always feasible without a risky read. In those matchups Lucina is definitely better; Which is why I use them both as one character rather than focusing on one or the other.

EDIT: I saw someone mention this before but you really do see alot of "why is lucina worse than marth" topics in the lucina forum XD