Where Does Bowser Currently Stack-Up in the Metagame?

[Deadlyx]

As a new bowser main, I find it difficult to gauge where bowser is in the competetive scene. Not many people use him, there's very few informative videos about him since the Wii U version came out. I think he's currently Mid-Tier. But with nobody playing him, it's hard to tell. Anybody with more experience with bowser feel free to respond on what you think about bowser in the current patch.

 

[pitfall356]

I might not be the most qualified person to tell you, but I would definitely say that Bowser is mid-tier. It's hard to find good info on Bowser, and he doesn't tend to do well in tourneys. He has poor rep at best so most people think he's trash. He has poor landing options and basically no true combos. His frame data holds him back.

He deals massive damage per hit, and his recovery is strong enough to more or less bring him back to the stage if he doesn't die outright. Use good DI, and he can survive into extreme percents, allowing him to get massive help from rage.

Overall, he's not as bad as people think he is, but I wouldn't put him any higher than mid-tier.

 

[Snipnigth]

Ash is one of the best bowsers i have seen check him out, also, zero made a video saying that bowser in competitive smash is not good at all, because he is very easily punished and very easily comboed, also he dosent have to many followups...I personally believe, if your good at getting reads, and predicting your opponent and like to play defensive then hes a good pick, he hits really hard and can kill very early, also since he is so heavy he can take advantage of his rage longer, your gonna get owned by some characters tho.

 

[MagiusNecros]

As others have said he is mid tier. Dash Slash if mastered might place him high mid. Not sure if low high.

But definitely mid tier at the very least.

 

[Cronoc]

To win at top level Bowser has to use all his tricks and know his matchups as well as possible. It helps if his opponents don't know the matchup too well - don't know his autocancels, his pivot grab range, and how safe/unsafe certain moves are. A bad matchup turns even if the other player doesn't understand what makes it a bad matchup for Bowser and doesn't exploit it. Helps if they're afraid of his big moves too - the more undue respect his opponent gives him, the better Bowser can do.

Certain bad matchups are very rough. Playing against players experienced in the matchup is rough. But unless you go to a tournament it's absolutely possible to dominate with Bowser among a group of friends, most people in for glory, and even many people on Smash Ladder. He has a lot of bad matchups, some where Bowser simply gets destroyed when he's offstage, many where certain moves simply can't be used safely, many where he has a really tough time landing.

Despite all this, he is mid-tier. If you find any other characters fun to play, think about making the highest tier one a secondary for Bowser's bad matchups. Personally I only find Bowser and Jigglypuff fun, so I'm kind of screwed.

As others have said he is mid tier. Dash Slash if mastered might place him high mid. Not sure if low high.

But definitely mid tier at the very least.

Ha I like that you're still keeping customs alive, but unfortunately for dash slash that ship seems to have sailed. I really enjoyed it while it lasted, but I think it also led to a good amount of auto-piloting as a player - it was too good an option not to use way too often.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ha I like that you're still keeping customs alive, but unfortunately for dash slash that ship seems to have sailed. I really enjoyed it while it lasted, but I think it also led to a good amount of auto-piloting as a player - it was too good an option not to use way too often.

I try. Currently playing around with Fire Shot.

 

[Cassius.]

Mid/Low-Mid at best.

He's definitely not low tier but a lot of his MUs become exponentially worse as you go up the list. And then he randomly does okay against some characters and horribly against the top 2/3.

He has a niche against idiots/certain play styles and characters but Solo Bowser is very difficult/damn near impossible depending on your region and their character usage. For example, one of the top players here uses ZSS, so I pretty much cannot use solo Bowser anymore.

 

[Zethoro]

Mid-Low without customs, Mid/Mid-high with them. As others have said, Bowser struggles greatly against a lot of important matchups, making solo Bowser unviable if you live in a big region like SoCal.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I hate to say mid but we're talking about a game where the low tier is almost entirely indistinguishable in the non-customs setting. The bigger issue is how all the low tiers have caught up to Bowser in a way that it's a challenge to pick out what our truly advantageous matchups are. Robin, Ike, Samus, Zelda, Marth, all those guys are way more well rounded now than on release. Not better than Bowser, but they're catching up to the point where they are better picks. All Bowser has gotten is Flying Slam control, A serviceable Utilt, and slightly more rewarding Dsmash and Nair. Fire Shot is exponentially better too, but a lot of us don't play with customs these days. And we certainly don't have advantage against the highs, because if we were even half with them, we'd be there in high tier. I feel like Bowser has a reasonable time against Diddy and Rosalina, but that's the most optimistic I can get on high tiers.

I will say Bowser is easy to pick up if you've got at least the basics of Smash down. He rewards smart timing and respect of the opponent's options. On my first three weeks with Bowser I placed higher than I ever had at my local tournament, and I just made heavy use of Jab and Bowser Bomb. I didn't know about Side B tricks, when to use Fire Breath, and how to stay grounded and control the stage. I had to quit competitive soon after, but Bowser's potential was clear, so I started labbing. Read up on our threads, ask questions, and fight people with Bowser to see how well he fits.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser is basically a character that can teach you a variety of the game's core mechanics and fundamentals in order to do well.

Succeed with Bowser and you can kinda wreck face with characters that are arguably higher tier placement then he is.

Although personally Bowser is so far the only character that has a playstyle that fits me.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

Honestly, imo bowser in his current state isn't very viable at very top level play. But the way I see bowser is he is a very unstable character. What I mean by this is one buff in the correct area could send his viability skyrocketing. I haven't played smash 4 or bowser enough to say what that buff could be, but regardless with one buff I feel he could be top tier

 

[Deadlyx]

Honestly, imo bowser in his current state isn't very viable at very top level play. But the way I see bowser is he is a very unstable character. What I mean by this is one buff in the correct area could send his viability skyrocketing. I haven't played smash 4 or bowser enough to say what that buff could be, but regardless with one buff I feel he could be top tier

Imagine if Up-B out of shield could kill lol.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

Imagine if Up-B out of shield could kill lol.

LOL that would actually by insane XD

 

[pitfall356]

... Depending on your matchup, rage, and enemy percent, Fortress OoS is a viable kill move.

Against Kirby, for example, I find fortress to be my go-to kill move when we're both at 100%. It's very reliable.

 

[metroidfan987]

Honestly, imo bowser in his current state isn't very viable at very top level play. But the way I see bowser is he is a very unstable character. What I mean by this is one buff in the correct area could send his viability skyrocketing. I haven't played smash 4 or bowser enough to say what that buff could be, but regardless with one buff I feel he could be top tier

That buff would be, significantly reduced endlag to all his moves. And reduced landing lag. Altho teching might mitigate this somewhat.

 

[MagiusNecros]

That buff would be, significantly reduced endlag to all his moves. And reduced landing lag. Altho teching might mitigate this somewhat.

I'm more of a buff tough guy or give shellguard on all 4 of his shell attacks.

I think of all the heavies Bowser is the only heavy that has no form of super armor even with customs.

 

[Deadlyx]

... Depending on your matchup, rage, and enemy percent, Fortress OoS is a viable kill move.

Against Kirby, for example, I find fortress to be my go-to kill move when we're both at 100%. It's very reliable.

I was more saying if it could kill at 60-75%. If it was that powerful imagine how good bowser would be?

 

[pitfall356]

He would be way overpowered. It's his fastest move, it's an easy response OoS, and it's good for catching a dodge. We can break any character with a buff very easily. This kind of discussion seems moot in Bowser meta thread.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, all I want is for them to give Bowser a competent throw game. They gave everybody else one. I'm just afraid they'll go too far and give Bowser a hoo hah. Our Uair kills extremely early, and I don't want to feel like I'm cheesing victories. If we could just true combo more consistently at low percents, that would be nice. Because right now, Bowser's throws don't have a niche outside of "it's something to do after our amazing pivot grab connects". Dealing 10-12 % is better than most characters, sure, but we're a character that deals 10-24% damage on all our moves, so the throws feel lacking.

Other than that, the only move of Bowsers that I think still needs an upgrade is Fire Breath. Being able to stop the attack after three flames instead of four would be nice. As would be a startup reduction. It has more startup than Fsmash and isn't designed to clock more than about 5-8% worth of damage before they escape. Breath is a difficult move to use in a serious match, and the reward is paltry. If they made it more of a low risk, low reward, than a lot of us would be using it more often as a mixup.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Other than that, the only move of Bowsers that I think still needs an upgrade is Fire Breath. Being able to stop the attack after three flames instead of four would be nice. As would be a startup reduction. It has more startup than Fsmash and isn't designed to clock more than about 5-8% worth of damage before they escape. Breath is a difficult move to use in a serious match, and the reward is paltry. If they made it more of a low risk, low reward, than a lot of us would be using it more often as a mixup.

You guys might disagree but I think Fire Shot is the future. While Fire Breath is arguably better in it's applications with FS you get a slow moving laser that moves across a longer distance across a stage and deals as much damage as Jab 1 regardless of where it hits. And is really great with hopping backwards. Also great if you got a dweeb camping the ledge trying to spike or doing that stupid thing G&W does with the Frying Pan. It forces a reaction and will reach which makes them stop what they are doing and allows you to possibly deal damage and get back to safety.

Also fun fact. It only takes 34 Fire Shots to take a stock at the edge with a Ftilt.

I mean I don't think they'll buff Breath even if it shouldn't push Bowser since he's like the heaviest. Yet it does. You know what version of Fire Breath doesn't push Bowser and has amazing angling? Giga Bowser version.

Fire Roar is amazingly ****ty though. The only good thing about it is the upwards angle you can shoot it out at. Otherwise the other 2 versions easily do more damage.

Course the longer the community sits in the dark without customs for petty reasons just means Bowser will have it that much harder. And having a no custom ruling is just gonna make things stagnant that much quicker. Since a no customs ruling means no unpredictability so you'll probably see the same players and the same characters over and over again. And in a sense with the lack of customs for DLC characters it just shows that even the devs of the game are in favor of that no customs ruling.

Bowser did have an amazing throw game. It was called Flying Slam and they butchered it and if they didn't butcher the move they butchered the hitbox. And even in Melee Koopa Klaw was pretty great because throwing someone out of THAT was more powerful then his regular throws.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Oh yeah, Fire Shot is pretty clearly the better move. I just want them to improve Fire Breath so that it isn't almost comparatively as bad as Fire Roar. I just wrote about Fire Shot a bit in the Q/A thread. Fire Shot is the future, yes. But are Customs the future? That's a different question than "Should Customs be the future". A lot of us would love to whizz around with Dash Slash and negate entire zoning walls with Fire Shot at our local tournaments, but you can't change the people's interest. If I main any character that's not Bowser and I read a post about how much he's improved with Customs, I really could not give a damn. Because others like Sheik, Zero Suit, Luigi, Ness, characters that everybody cares about, they don't get anything out of it. No clear upgrades, no interesting possibilities. They're so good in non-customs that they aren't really pressured to lab up the possibilities.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It just sounds like since the top tiers don't get amazing mileage out of customs the top dogs that play those characters write off customs entirely even when a character like Palutena was built off the idea of custom moves being a thing? Sounds a bit selfish and stingy.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It just sounds like since the top tiers don't get amazing mileage out of customs the top dogs that play those characters write off customs entirely even when a character like Palutena was built off the idea of custom moves being a thing? Sounds a bit selfish and stingy.

Mmm, let's just say people that play competitive fighting games aren't exactly philosophers. Imagine if Zero said he wouldn't attend a national because customs are off, even if he doesn't play with them. That'd be pretty wild. Things like that would shake things up. Maybe some popular streamers have weekly "customs on" nights of friendly matches. A customs meta is still in the cards, it's just wildly unlikely until you have the right people on board.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

I say Mid-Tier at best. Don't agree with the other folks saying he's complete garbage. I'd recommend using him with a viable secondary like some these fine folks have said. I however, never followed that advice, and CO-Main Ganondorf. Been that way since the Melee days. I wish Boozer had his Brawl Klaw. Grabbing cats from half screen was too much fun, mang.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Man if Klaw had pivot grab range on a pivot Klaw. If only. IF ONLY.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

Man if Klaw had pivot grab range on a pivot Klaw. If only. IF ONLY.

 

[Cronoc]

It just sounds like since the top tiers don't get amazing mileage out of customs the top dogs that play those characters write off customs entirely even when a character like Palutena was built off the idea of custom moves being a thing? Sounds a bit selfish and stingy.

Have you seen the reasoning of top players for why Mii fighters should stay 1-1-1-1? It doesn't make much sense. If they have trouble coming on around on that, I wouldn't expect actual customs play to be on the table anytime soon. ESAM doesn't think Mii's should be more than 1-1-1-1, Vinnie won't go to a tournament that allows customized Mii's, and that's just what I've come across without any real investigation. It's a sad state of affairs for Mii players.

 

[pitfall356]

So let's take a Bowser with customs and toss him into the no customs meta like he always had those base attacks (Mostly Dash slash and fire shot). Where would Bowser be? High? Still mid?

Whenever people talk about the meta, I just assume no customs because nobody likes playing with customs (Which I'm starting to wonder why). Yes, some customs are just bad (Hello, Cyclone Kong), but some make huge changes for the character to make it much more viable.

 

[S_B]

It just sounds like since the top tiers don't get amazing mileage out of customs the top dogs that play those characters write off customs entirely even when a character like Palutena was built off the idea of custom moves being a thing? Sounds a bit selfish and stingy.

Pikachu becomes everyone's worst nightmare with customs, though, and Rosa gets a Luma with a Falco laser.

Mid-tier is also where I'd place Bowser, and there's only one buff he'd need to rise a tier or two and that's a guaranteed followup to a throw that can combo into a kill at reasonable percentages.

It's ironic that a character with more killing moves than non-killing moves suffers from this, but actually landing the kill confirm is sadly one of Bowser's key issues, especially against super fast characters like ZSS and Sheik.

Or maybe if they just gave him a killing throw outright like Zard has now. Either way, Bowser just needs a better way to confirm into a kill.

 

[BrandonTheBoss]

I main Bowser, and I can say that he is good in the right hands, but against some stuff like ZSS, he can fail sorta hard. But his overall power helps him a lot, and he has other good traits, like having one of the best OOS options in the game. Overall, while he certainly isn't the best character, he isn't THAT bad.

 

[Scootch]

Everyone thinks Bowser is trash and throws him to the near-bottom of the tier list. I think it is because everyone thought he was so OP in the 3DS days, and then when the Wii U version came out and he got his nerfs, everyone threw him away. Sure, it would be nice if he didn't have so much lag on a lot of his moves, but he has a lot of untapped potential, imo. Also, not many people use him in tournaments, which I think he should be played more.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Everyone thinks Bowser is trash and throws him to the near-bottom of the tier list. I think it is because everyone thought he was so OP in the 3DS days, and then when the Wii U version came out and he got his nerfs, everyone threw him away. Sure, it would be nice if he didn't have so much lag on a lot of his moves, but he has a lot of untapped potential, imo. Also, not many people use him in tournaments, which I think he should be played more.

What really screwed Bowser over was Magicant and leading to the reversal of mechanics Flying Slam had meaning Bowser lost all stage presence and intimidation in the endgame of a stock match which truly served to cover his weakness of being at the edge because that was truly a danger zone for Bowser to be in and that they really seem to like throwing wonky hitboxes on characters.

Meta Knight has been through it, Bowser goes through it, Mewtwo goes through it but characters like ZSS and Sheik have like very very minimal if any problems at all.

It's pretty clear some attention was given to other characters over others and competitively that hurts people like Bowser. Because unlike MK who can get in and do some stuff you have to play hard with Bowser to even get anywhere.

Meanwhile speedsters like ZSS/Sheik can just pressure you until you make one wrong move. Including having them make a mistake, your Flying Slam should connect, whiffs at point blank because your hitbox is 2 centimeters long and goes past their model and then they punish you for punishing them. And then they take your stock since you had accrued a lot of damage even through careful play. Meaning we pretty much just jab the whole match or Fortress punish until they make the biggest mistake of their life to get off a Bowser Bomb.

 

[Hitman JT]

Either at the bottom of mid-tier or the top of low-tier. Whichever sounds nicer.
He only loses hard to three characters but stands a chance against everyone else.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Unfortunately, I've grown very frustrated with Sakurai's refusal to buff Bowser or at least fix his most glaring weaknesses.
As it stands, Donkey Kong and Ike can do pretty much anything Bowser can, but BETTER.
DK has an even more powerful move than Bowser Bomb in his giant punch, a matching pivot grab, air mobility, faster walk speed (matters more than run speed), somewhat better dash attack, more spike options, armor on his up B, a better jab, better poke (dtilt), a better Utilt that can actually start combos, and much better Vertical kill power due to Ding Dong and his faster Uair.
Ike has better edgeguarding in his eruption, all of Bowser's strength in his attacks, safer recovery and better mixup options in general.
Both have less laggy Bairs (with considerably less landing lag in both cases on most of their aerials), throw combos, shorter jumpsquats (makes a huge difference when every frame counts), and smaller hurtboxes.

I likely sound jaded. I really wanted Bowser to be viable. And seeing all the buffs DK got, with almost nothing for Bowser makes me really sad and reluctant to either drop Bowser or stop taking him as seriously.
But that's what I'm probably going to do if he doesn't get much needed buffs next patch. D:

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

shorter jumpsquats (makes a huge difference when every frame counts)

While I don't disagree that every frame counts, Whether it's a 6, 7, or 8, you tend to do not much empty jumping. I find jumpsquat to only matter with OoS game and aerial followups. And those two have very little in the way of options. Shield jump to aerial is not at all potent for us, and it's not for them either, since their fastest aerial is frame 7 to our frame 9. Their Usmash and Up Bs are also garbage options for block punishing. With just our Fortress, we have a much easier time than they do against aggresive attackers.

But I do agree with the analysis for Ike. Since he used to be an all around worse Bowser but with a sword. A few endlag and startup reductions have really changed what he can do with Ftilt and aerials. Is he better than Bowser now? I'd say it's a matter of what priorities you care more about. Bowser has excellent grabs, including Flying Slam as a command grab kill option. Ike's weaker aerials are much more safe to land with, and he can autocancel Fair and Bair just like us. Beyond that, it's almost like playing the same character in terms of strengths and weaknesses. Both of them even become monsters in the customs setting as well.

 

[pitfall356]

I think Ike is better, but that's because every time I fight a competent Ike, they spam their safe aerials and completely wall me out from landing any hits or even punishes.

 

[420quickscoper]

I think Ike is better, but that's because every time I fight a competent Ike, they spam their safe aerials and completely wall me out from landing any hits or even punishes.

Well... I'm pretty sure Ike IS better than Bowser.

 

[Dre89]

Bowser does not need buffs. People do not realise how good this character is. I'd say he's high mid to low high. His potential with power shield punishes and stuff like perfect pivot jab is ridiculous.

I also don't get why people rave about his upb OOS. It's not good against most relevant characters because they're too safe on shield most of the time. If people are pulling this off they're either versing average characters or average players.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Bowser does not need buffs. People do not realise how good this character is. I'd say he's high mid to low high. His potential with power shield punishes and stuff like perfect pivot jab is ridiculous.

I also don't get why people rave about his upb OOS. It's not good against most relevant characters because they're too safe on shield most of the time. If people are pulling this off they're either versing average characters or average players.

He's got plenty of strengths, but his neutral is terrible and pretty much his jab, flame breath, dash/pivot grab, or autocancelled aerials.
Consistent powershielding of most attacks is not something most players can do reliably (not just the projectiles). Many characters become much better once you factor consistent powershields into the equation. I'm sure Ike, DK, Dedede, Charizard, and Ganon all become significantly better as well, but that doesn't mean their tier placing rises with it purely because it's extremely difficult to consistently pull it off.
He has virtually no combos, has slow attacks with lots of endlag/landing lag, does not do significantly more damage than other characters to make his slow attacks worthwhile, has a predictable recovery that is easily spiked, has an underwhelming projectile, and his passive armor is crap because it's unreliable for punishing opponents anyway.

He may be mid tier at best but I fail to see how he can survive in 1v1s when playing as him is almost entirely read based and so much more difficult than most other characters.

 

[Dre89]

He's got plenty of strengths, but his neutral is terrible and pretty much his jab, flame breath, dash/pivot grab, or autocancelled aerials.
Consistent powershielding of most attacks is not something most players can do reliably (not just the projectiles). Many characters become much better once you factor consistent powershields into the equation. I'm sure Ike, DK, Dedede, Charizard, and Ganon all become significantly better as well, but that doesn't mean their tier placing rises with it purely because it's extremely difficult to consistently pull it off.
He has virtually no combos, has slow attacks with lots of endlag/landing lag, does not do significantly more damage than other characters to make his slow attacks worthwhile, has a predictable recovery that is easily spiked, has an underwhelming projectile, and his passive armor is crap because it's unreliable for punishing opponents anyway.

He may be mid tier at best but I fail to see how he can survive in 1v1s when playing as him is almost entirely read based and so much more difficult than most other characters.

His neutral is actually good against people without a projectile, just because jab and pivot grab are hard to punish a lot of the time. Projectiles make it worse because his jab spacing becomes less effective, but at least he has the dash attack/grab 50/50 for burst.
He doesn't need consistent powershielding. He benefits more from powershielding than the other heavies because he can kill people pre100 with downb off it. Speaking of downb, perfect pivot jab is a super safe potential confirm into it.

Jab and pivot grab are so good that they're really the only things you need for bread and butter spacing. Other stuff like dashgrab, aerials etc. are just for mixups. He can actually space fairly safely whilst still posing some kind of threat. He also threatens shields with grab and sideb, both of which will lead to at least 18%, and the latter of which he can kill. The fact that he has several viable burst options that don't all lose to a single option makes him less read-dependent than you're making out because he can also function on coin-flips.

Also his damage on-hit is like the best in the game. Double-hit dtilt (low percents) is 25%. Bair is frame 9 and does 19%. Downb is frame 11 and does 24% if you land the initial pop-up. Firebreath is a free 10% or more in a lot of situations. Jab combo does 11%. A jab-grab combo can do around 25% if you pummel twice.

The fact that he doesn't have combos isn't a meaningful weakness because he does so much damage on-hit relative to his opponent's kill percent. Considering that he can kill reliably around 80-90% even Bowser's lowest-reward hits will do around 1/8th or 1/9th of the damage they need to get to kill percent. Bthrow with two pummels is almost a quarter of that.

This is not factoring in rage. He's the biggest exploiter of rage in the game because he's heavy, and he doesn't lose any of his kill options due it. It only enhances all of his already-good kill options. The fact that rage can allow you to kill someone at 60% off moves faster than frame 12 is a pretty big deal.