Where Does Bowser Currently Stack-Up in the Metagame?

[Cronoc]

His neutral is actually good against people without a projectile, just because jab and pivot grab are hard to punish a lot of the time. Projectiles make it worse because his jab spacing becomes less effective, but at least he has the dash attack/grab 50/50 for burst.
He doesn't need consistent powershielding. He benefits more from powershielding than the other heavies because he can kill people pre100 with downb off it. Speaking of downb, perfect pivot jab is a super safe potential confirm into it.

Jab and pivot grab are so good that they're really the only things you need for bread and butter spacing. Other stuff like dashgrab, aerials etc. are just for mixups. He can actually space fairly safely whilst still posing some kind of threat. He also threatens shields with grab and sideb, both of which will lead to at least 18%, and the latter of which he can kill. The fact that he has several viable burst options that don't all lose to a single option makes him less read-dependent than you're making out because he can also function on coin-flips.

Also his damage on-hit is like the best in the game. Double-hit dtilt (low percents) is 25%. Bair is frame 9 and does 19%. Downb is frame 11 and does 24% if you land the initial pop-up. Firebreath is a free 10% or more in a lot of situations. Jab combo does 11%. A jab-grab combo can do around 25% if you pummel twice.

The fact that he doesn't have combos isn't a meaningful weakness because he does so much damage on-hit relative to his opponent's kill percent. Considering that he can kill reliably around 80-90% even Bowser's lowest-reward hits will do around 1/8th or 1/9th of the damage they need to get to kill percent. Bthrow with two pummels is almost a quarter of that.

This is not factoring in rage. He's the biggest exploiter of rage in the game because he's heavy, and he doesn't lose any of his kill options due it. It only enhances all of his already-good kill options. The fact that rage can allow you to kill someone at 60% off moves faster than frame 12 is a pretty big deal.

I don't disagree with some of the talk of Bowser's strengths here, though I think you're being optimistic. But it's still not good enough in this game. For all his kill power, Bowser needs a read to get the kill. Whether it's a klaw, Bowser bomb, fsmash or usmash, all the big moves require the opponent to make a mistake. Good players know that Bowser needs that read, and will play as safe as possible when they're at high percents. Misjudge the read and a lead can quickly be lost. Minus that big read, you're looking at a dtilt kill around 110-120%, utilt kill around 130-140%, or an ftilt kill around 130-140%. Jabs after 150%. At that point, it's not that impressive looking anymore. And remember, Bowser can't really press his advantage state without committing to something punishable, so all that damage has to be honestly gained through reads or generally 10-15% at a time in neutral. A good number of characters exist who can kill around 70-90%, with safer moves than Bowser's.

The characters Bowser faces in competitive play that don't have a projectile are far and few between. Sonic, Ike, Meta Knight, Captain Falcon, Wario... I'm already struggling to think of more off the top of my head. I'd count Luma as a projectile. I like to play Mewtwo for fun, and I've gotta say it's so much more relaxing than Bowser. Having a spam-able projectile puts everything on the opponent, it's much less mentally fatiguing to create that projectile wall than it is to successfully get through it. There's something to be said for how taxing it can be to simply get in on certain projectile users. Any mistakes are free damage, and many projectiles require me to perfect shield if I want to get the punish up close. The multi-hit projectiles are the worst. I wish there were less projectiles in Smash 4 in general, but it is what it is. The struggle is still real though.

Ignoring the projectile issue, I'm ok with Bowser's grounded neutral, besides the ridiculous endlag on his grab/pivot grab/flame breath and ftilt's dead spot. But when Bowser is at a disadvantage, he's really at a disadvantage. Many characters can cover their landing with projectiles, a quick and long lasting nair, a counter, a movement option (Wario's bike, etc). They have an airdodge that comes out faster than frame 4. They can stall, they have enough jumps or a good enough up b to and use attacks from under the ledge to clear a safe path. Bowser doesn't have any of these. When trying to land on the ground, he can try to klaw as he lands to catch a shielding opponent (if they roll this strategy is useless), or use dair (at best, dair can be used to trick and punish the opponent for shield grabbing right before landing), or use Bowser bomb. Or flame breath. Klaw loses to any hitbox, dair and Bowser bomb lose to shielding and rolling respectively. Any other aerial when landing will mean a punish. Whiffing the dair or bomb will be a punish. Flame breath had better be pointing towards the opponent when Bowser lands, or Bowser has a problem. Klaw will reset the neutral, and is basically a bluff to try to impress the opponent into letting us land. All these options are very telegraphed.

Offstage, he can Bowser bomb to the ledge when recovering high (mileage may vary depending on the matchup) and can use one aerial to defend himself, though it'll cost him his air jump to recover height. Bowser's up b leaves him incredibly vulnerable. Most opponents don't understand that a reversed up b to the ledge is a free fsmash. They don't realize what a character with a standing (not moving) counter can do to a fortress recovery. They mistime the dair spike and we get back to the stage. Most characters would never even be in that situation without having done something extremely stupid, but Bowser is always in that "don't get spiked" situation because he's Bowser. The only thing Bowser can do after using his second jump is try to time the activation of his up b so as to save himself from an edge-guard.

So yeah, on paper Bowser is fine, assuming the match never leaves the neutral or an advantage state for Bowser. But all that kill power and neutral stuff goes out the window when other characters get as much mileage as they do off of their bread and butters, and when Bowser has to land or recover. He could use some buffs. That the suggested buffs don't fix his problems landing/recovering is more because the character would have to be fundamentally reworked, and no one expects that. So in the meantime maybe they could at least fix his hitboxes and take a few endlag frames off some things...

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

You guys might disagree but I think Fire Shot is the future. While Fire Breath is arguably better in it's applications with FS you get a slow moving laser that moves across a longer distance across a stage and deals as much damage as Jab 1 regardless of where it hits. And is really great with hopping backwards. Also great if you got a dweeb camping the ledge trying to spike or doing that stupid thing G&W does with the Frying Pan. It forces a reaction and will reach which makes them stop what they are doing and allows you to possibly deal damage and get back to safety.

Also fun fact. It only takes 34 Fire Shots to take a stock at the edge with a Ftilt.

I mean I don't think they'll buff Breath even if it shouldn't push Bowser since he's like the heaviest. Yet it does. You know what version of Fire Breath doesn't push Bowser and has amazing angling? Giga Bowser version.

Fire Roar is amazingly ****ty though. The only good thing about it is the upwards angle you can shoot it out at. Otherwise the other 2 versions easily do more damage.

Course the longer the community sits in the dark without customs for petty reasons just means Bowser will have it that much harder. And having a no custom ruling is just gonna make things stagnant that much quicker. Since a no customs ruling means no unpredictability so you'll probably see the same players and the same characters over and over again. And in a sense with the lack of customs for DLC characters it just shows that even the devs of the game are in favor of that no customs ruling.

Bowser did have an amazing throw game. It was called Flying Slam and they butchered it and if they didn't butcher the move they butchered the hitbox. And even in Melee Koopa Klaw was pretty great because throwing someone out of THAT was more powerful then his regular throws.

Just found this thread and I think it is funny. IIRC when the custom project was being done for EVO there were quite a few people lemmings that were following a very prominent member of the bowser boards who thought the only custom worth using was Dash Klaw. Glad to see you like Fire Shot and while I hope customs get brought back and fixed I don't see it happening because a good majority of the community especially the top have dismissed them as jank or time consuming. One can only hope that 2311 (maybe even 2313?)becomes the savior to bring Bowser into top 10. Reaching immensely but can only hope.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I also don't get why people rave about his upb OOS. It's not good against most relevant characters because they're too safe on shield most of the time. If people are pulling this off they're either versing average characters or average players.

I'm not a fan of the move, but if you've run with a lot of the cast, you'll find some pretty garbage OoS games. Fortress is frame 6 and does not require you to face your opponent. There are faster UpBs from the likes of Mario, Little Mac, Marth, etc., but they must be reversed if you want to hit a target behind you. Knowing when your opponent's cross up did and did not put them behind you is an anxiety that you don't have to deal with when using Fortress. And with a Frame 9 shieldgrab, the added speed on an OoS option is not wasted on us.

But at the end of the day, Fortress is liable to clock a measly 7 or so %, won't ever kill, is extremely unsafe on whiff and block, and doesn't reach far even with the ability to move. It's an underwhelming attack that's so frustratingly necessary for us.

Regarding Bowser's viability, I don't think the existence of more playable heavies detracts from Bowser's character all that much. If you think DK, Ike, and Charizard are so good, I encourage you to try them on. And don't be surprised when you hit the same walls. We'll probably see Bowser Jr. and Dedede join the cast of good heavies in the future. But Bowser is still distinct from them.

 

[Dre89]

I'm not a fan of the move, but if you've run with a lot of the cast, you'll find some pretty garbage OoS games. Fortress is frame 6 and does not require you to face your opponent. There are faster UpBs from the likes of Mario, Little Mac, Marth, etc., but they must be reversed if you want to hit a target behind you. Knowing when your opponent's cross up did and did not put them behind you is an anxiety that you don't have to deal with when using Fortress. And with a Frame 9 shieldgrab, the added speed on an OoS option is not wasted on us.

But at the end of the day, Fortress is liable to clock a measly 7 or so %, won't ever kill, is extremely unsafe on whiff and block, and doesn't reach far even with the ability to move. It's an underwhelming attack that's so frustratingly necessary for us.

Regarding Bowser's viability, I don't think the existence of more playable heavies detracts from Bowser's character all that much. If you think DK, Ike, and Charizard are so good, I encourage you to try them on. And don't be surprised when you hit the same walls. We'll probably see Bowser Jr. and Dedede join the cast of good heavies in the future. But Bowser is still distinct from them.

I don't think Charizard is better than Bowser. To me he's basically just another Bowser with a slightly worse neutral who kills way later.

Ile I don't know much about but I've heard he's quite good now.

DK is only better than Bowser because of his grab and gimping. The latter is not as relevant against top and high tiers because a lot of them are ungimpable. His neutral and disadvantage are worse than Bowser's. It's just that his advantage is a lot better thanks to grab.

 

[420quickscoper]

I don't think Charizard is better than Bowser. To me he's basically just another Bowser with a slightly worse neutral who kills way later.

Ile I don't know much about but I've heard he's quite good now.

DK is only better than Bowser because of his grab and gimping. The latter is not as relevant against top and high tiers because a lot of them are ungimpable. His neutral and disadvantage are worse than Bowser's. It's just that his advantage is a lot better thanks to grab.

Personally I think that Charizard is better than Bowser.
And this is because of few reasons.

1. Charizard is actually a little bit better at killing than Bowser.
Let's be real. Bowser does not have much in terms of killing. Yeah, he kills early, but that doesn't mean he's an actual good killer. It's all based on if Bowser gets the read or not, and if you have a real safe opponent you're not going to get that read. Charizard, on the other hand, may kill later but kills more efficiently. That's kinda more important, really. Charizard's up throw is the second best in the game, or the best because it can take advantage of platforms and it kills pretty early for a kill throw. I feel like Charizard's smash attacks are better than Bowser's, except for maybe forward smash.
2. Charizard has throw combos.
Do I even need to explain this? Charizard has one of the things that is actually really important in competitive play. Bowser doesn't and he doesn't get that much reward off of a grab. He has a kill throw, but it's pretty weak and you have to be at the edge, compared to Charizard's.
I have a few other reasons but I'm gonna put that aside for now. I feel like Charizard is a mid tier character but Bowser is kinda eh to me. Maybe mid low or top of low tier. Dunno.

 

[Dre89]

Personally I think that Charizard is better than Bowser.
And this is because of few reasons.

1. Charizard is actually a little bit better at killing than Bowser.
Let's be real. Bowser does not have much in terms of killing. Yeah, he kills early, but that doesn't mean he's an actual good killer. It's all based on if Bowser gets the read or not, and if you have a real safe opponent you're not going to get that read. Charizard, on the other hand, may kill later but kills more efficiently. That's kinda more important, really. Charizard's up throw is the second best in the game, or the best because it can take advantage of platforms and it kills pretty early for a kill throw. I feel like Charizard's smash attacks are better than Bowser's, except for maybe forward smash.
2. Charizard has throw combos.
Do I even need to explain this? Charizard has one of the things that is actually really important in competitive play. Bowser doesn't and he doesn't get that much reward off of a grab. He has a kill throw, but it's pretty weak and you have to be at the edge, compared to Charizard's.
I have a few other reasons but I'm gonna put that aside for now. I feel like Charizard is a mid tier character but Bowser is kinda eh to me. Maybe mid low or top of low tier. Dunno.

Bowser kills way earlier than Zard. Down is frame 11 and kills most of the cast before 100. It can also confirm from his frame 7 jab. Bair is frame 9 and kills before 100. These don't require super hard reads to land because they're fairly fast.

Bowser's grabs a lot of damage without comboing, and he's a lot better at getting grabs thanks to his absurd dash and pivot grabs. They're more important than a good standing grab because most top tiers are safe on shield anyway. So Bowser will probably net more damage off his grabs than Charizard all things considered.

 

[S_B]

So yeah, on paper Bowser is fine, assuming the match never leaves the neutral or an advantage state for Bowser. But all that kill power and neutral stuff goes out the window when other characters get as much mileage as they do off of their bread and butters

Exactly this, and a great post preceding it.

I love Bowser. He's my favorite Nintendo character, hands down, mainly because he actually has a good deal of depth in a series where everyone else is a soulless, depthless shell.

But the ugly truth is that Bowser's killing potential means jack squat next to the ridiculously amazing kill setups of some of the other characters. Beyond that, Bowser is a character who NEEDS to get a read because he has no means of creating his own openings via projectile or some really good method of approach (I wish Sakurai had given Bowser's side-B the same treatment that Diddy's got where it can function as three different things, depending upon which buttons you press...).

Bowser needs a read in a metagame that's getting increasingly good at never giving him one, and this is against characters who are getting better and better at NOT needing said read, a growing number of which can actually kill Bowser with only ONE solid read of their own (like MK, for example).

And as Cronoc said, the projectile struggle is REAL. I'm seeing an increasing number of characters learn to take amazing advantage of their projectiles to get reads (like DHD, D3, etc.) to do things like pressure their opponent into air dodging or shielding, then punishing the hell out of them for it.

I wish fire breath ended quickly enough that he could run after the last bit of flame as it traveled forward, using it to put momentary pressure on an opponent before he ran in and did some damage (ala Luigi's fireballs, pre nerf...).

In the end, if Bowser had ONE guaranteed followup off of a throw, I think the whole thing could turn around for him. DK is as good as he is because of the ding-dong. If Bowser had something like that off a grab, he'd be AMAZING overnight...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well I kinda agree only just minutes ago I only played ZSS once and she gets so much off a throw and keep the pressure going. Bowser has none of that and once you get Bowser in the air or off the edge it's generally a battle to get back to the ground and all his air attacks are glorified "get off me" moves.


Ergo. Once in the air you are pretty much ****ed.

To do well you essentially have to read your opponent and react accordingly to counter any action they will do. While that might be possible it is really difficult.

I have a guy that plays Falcon and he's okay I guess, not top level but he's put my Bowser in scary situations meanwhile one match of ZSS play and I can floor my buddy's Falcon in no time flat and I haven't really invested much time into the character either.

 

[S_B]

I also need to stress that I don't mean to make it sound hopeless or anything. Bowser is literally one throw followup away from standing at least shoulder to shoulder with DK or possibly even better (I'd laugh like hell if Zero went back to maining him...).

Furthermore, we KNOW Sakurai knows Bowser's in a tough spot since he was one of the characters that received a buff last patch when they seemed largely intent on not touching the characters too much due to the sweeping shieldstun changes.

So yeah, I would say it's highly likely that we'll see some substantial Bowser buffs at some point soon, hopefully even for the next patch.

 

[420quickscoper]

I also need to stress that I don't mean to make it sound hopeless or anything. Bowser is literally one throw followup away from standing at least shoulder to shoulder with DK or possibly even better (I'd laugh like hell if Zero went back to maining him...).

Furthermore, we KNOW Sakurai knows Bowser's in a tough spot since he was one of the characters that received a buff last patch when they seemed largely intent on not touching the characters too much due to the sweeping shieldstun changes.

So yeah, I would say it's highly likely that we'll see some substantial Bowser buffs at some point soon, hopefully even for the next patch.

Meh. I don't really think so because they didn't buff him in a way that significantly helped him.

 

[S_B]

Meh. I don't really think so because they didn't buff him in a way that significantly helped him.

While true, he did still receive a buff, which most characters didn't get.

Again, we'll see, but I think Sak and co realize he needs a bit more help...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I also need to stress that I don't mean to make it sound hopeless or anything. Bowser is literally one throw followup away from standing at least shoulder to shoulder with DK or possibly even better (I'd laugh like hell if Zero went back to maining him...).

Furthermore, we KNOW Sakurai knows Bowser's in a tough spot since he was one of the characters that received a buff last patch when they seemed largely intent on not touching the characters too much due to the sweeping shieldstun changes.

So yeah, I would say it's highly likely that we'll see some substantial Bowser buffs at some point soon, hopefully even for the next patch.

The only buffs he got is an additional 1% per nair hit and, like many other characters, many good things for his customs.

It's practically nothing, unless customs aren't banned.

 

[420quickscoper]

While true, he did still receive a buff, which most characters didn't get.

Again, we'll see, but I think Sak and co realize he needs a bit more help...

I don't believe so, still. They haven't given him a major buff ever.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's practically nothing, unless customs aren't banned.

The Smash community really needs to lose this no customs mentality. I don't care how good or bad any player is regardless if it's some bum or if it's ZeRo or Nairo or me and I'll admit I'm not that great and I won't ever go to a tourney and wouldn't be able to if I wanted to. Restricting any character's options will only stagnate the game in the long run. Don't want to use them fine. Don't want to conform to learning how these moves work? Well that's a personal problem. But Magius some customs are broken projectile moves. Well guess what? We Bowser's aren't new to projectile jank. Why should that stop us now. And why should a character like Palutena who was built around the idea of customs be effectively neutered? Do two tourney rulesets if you have to, one omitting customs and one with. At least represent that option.

That's like going to a Pizza place and only ever getting Pepperoni. No sausage, no bacon and no supreme pizza's and no salads being offered. No delivery either. You either walk in and sit for 30 minutes or get out. In this day? Inconceivable.

Or eating meat raw and never cooked. Doesn't sound all too healthy. You want to fry or grill that slab of meat and put seasoning on it to give it flavor and that's exactly what customs does for the roster. Gives them more flavor. More options.

How are the lower tiers to ever step up to the plate if we can't optimize our skills to the best of our abilities? Do we stick with an unreliable command grab and HOPE they fix it. There was no hope back in Melee or Brawl, no patches were coming out.

Should we pity the DLC characters fate of no customs and those dregs who were too lazy(did not have the time but have the time to go to tourneys or simply don't care) to acquire customs moves for all the characters? I say neigh.

After all if this is as good as it gets competitively should I simply expect all the Sheik's, ZSS's and Diddy Kongs to be running around. Mind you the characters listed are just an example.

Sounds boring when you look at it from that perspective.

GRUMP GRUMP

Rant over.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The Smash community really needs to lose this no customs mentality. I don't care how good or bad any player is regardless if it's some bum or if it's ZeRo or Nairo or me and I'll admit I'm not that great and I won't ever go to a tourney and wouldn't be able to if I wanted to. Restricting any character's options will only stagnate the game in the long run. Don't want to use them fine. Don't want to conform to learning how these moves work? Well that's a personal problem. But Magius some customs are broken projectile moves. Well guess what? We Bowser's aren't new to projectile jank. Why should that stop us now. And why should a character like Palutena who was built around the idea of customs be effectively neutered? Do two tourney rulesets if you have to, one omitting customs and one with. At least represent that option.

That's like going to a Pizza place and only ever getting Pepperoni. No sausage, no bacon and no supreme pizza's and no salads being offered. No delivery either. You either walk in and sit for 30 minutes or get out. In this day? Inconceivable.

Or eating meat raw and never cooked. Doesn't sound all too healthy. You want to fry or grill that slab of meat and put seasoning on it to give it flavor and that's exactly what customs does for the roster. Gives them more flavor. More options.

How are the lower tiers to ever step up to the plate if we can't optimize our skills to the best of our abilities? Do we stick with an unreliable command grab and HOPE they fix it. There was no hope back in Melee or Brawl, no patches were coming out.

Should we pity the DLC characters fate of no customs and those dregs who were too lazy(did not have the time but have the time to go to tourneys or simply don't care) to acquire customs moves for all the characters? I say neigh.

After all if this is as good as it gets competitively should I simply expect all the Sheik's, ZSS's and Diddy Kongs to be running around. Mind you the characters listed are just an example.

Sounds boring when you look at it from that perspective.

GRUMP GRUMP

Rant over.

You are the most amazing guy ever

 

[S_B]

The only buffs he got is an additional 1% per nair hit and, like many other characters, many good things for his customs.

It's practically nothing, unless customs aren't banned.

Nair's landing lag was also reduced.

And the point I'm making is that Bowser got this buff during a patch when balance changes were largely being held back due to shieldstun mechanic changes.

The most major buff Bowser has probably received is the VASTLY improved control he has over flying slam now, allowing us to better steer it onto the top platform of most stages and go for Bowsercide kills when we want them a great deal more easily.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nair's landing lag was also reduced.

Oh right! I forgot that one!

And the point I'm making is that Bowser got this buff during a patch when balance changes were largely being held back due to shieldstun mechanic changes.

Doesn't prove he'll get something next patch though...

The most major buff Bowser has probably received is the VASTLY improved control he has over flying slam now, allowing us to better steer it onto the top platform of most stages and go for Bowsercide kills when we want them a great deal more easily.

That's a great buff!

Another buff I like is the utilt one where the hitboxes showed sooner to hit smaller characters.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Doesn't prove he'll get something next patch though...

We didn't have anything to prove that Flying Slam control, Utilt, Dsmash, Nair, and Fire Shot would all get buffed either. But they did. There's really no way to prove we'll get something for the fifth patch in a row, but it's not unreasonable to assume at this rate.

I feel like a throw combo is the most likely addition we would see. Months ago, I remember explicitly stating that I don't think Bowser needs a "hoo hah". His damage output off throws was already high, and if you needed a kill instead of just damage, we had flying slam for that. But since that statement, at least a dozen characters off the top of my head were given throw combos through patches. Our Uthrow just isn't good enough by comparison.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind them lowering the knockback angle of Dthrow significantly. To add to the comical sight of body slamming your target, have them be squeezed out at high velocity like in a cartoon. It would also give Bowser a horizontal launching move that he so desperately needs for setting up gimps and tech chases. All our powerful moves have high angles, and that's a huge hinderance against fast fallers which, surprise surprise, happen to make up the bulk of our difficult matchups.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

We didn't have anything to prove that Flying Slam control, Utilt, Dsmash, Nair, and Fire Shot would all get buffed either. But they did. There's really no way to prove we'll get something for the fifth patch in a row, but it's not unreasonable to assume at this rate.

Good point.

I feel like a throw combo is the most likely addition we would see. Months ago, I remember explicitly stating that I don't think Bowser needs a "hoo hah". His damage output off throws was already high, and if you needed a kill instead of just damage, we had flying slam for that. But since that statement, at least a dozen characters off the top of my head were given throw combos through patches. Our Uthrow just isn't good enough by comparison.

Also true.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind them lowering the knockback angle of Dthrow significantly. To add to the comical sight of body slamming your target, have them be squeezed out at high velocity like in a cartoon. It would also give Bowser a horizontal launching move that he so desperately needs for setting up gimps and tech chases. All our powerful moves have high angles, and that's a huge hinderance against fast fallers which, surprise surprise, happen to make up the bulk of our difficult matchups.

I never thought of that...

That one change could be more than enough to significantly improve him.

 

[S_B]

That one change could be more than enough to significantly improve him.

We were joking (maybe not joking) a while back about making his D-throw bury people, but I remember also discussing making D-throw launch at a very horizontal angle so it would be ideal grab for Bowser to use it at the edge of the stage, facing the blast zone.

That way, it wouldn't be a traditional kill throw, but it would at least give Bowser some means of putting people somewhere other than in the air. While Bowser has a lot of anti-air tools, none of them matter when no one is going to be dumb enough to land on him in the first place. :\

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

I also need to stress that I don't mean to make it sound hopeless or anything. Bowser is literally one throw followup away from standing at least shoulder to shoulder with DK or possibly even better (I'd laugh like hell if Zero went back to maining him...).

Furthermore, we KNOW Sakurai knows Bowser's in a tough spot since he was one of the characters that received a buff last patch when they seemed largely intent on not touching the characters too much due to the sweeping shieldstun changes.

So yeah, I would say it's highly likely that we'll see some substantial Bowser buffs at some point soon, hopefully even for the next patch.

I don't think Bowser warrants a throw follow up. Not everyone should have a throw followup and/or a kill throw and definitely having Dthrow as almost always the only combo throw is so boring. A lot of the suggestions have been on point with a really good one being Dthrow burying opponents. While that can lead to combos like Lucas if thy don't mash quick enough it can totally help to put on more damage or get them with a forward smash while they are popping out. This would be really cool too. Magius knows what needs to be done!

I'm more of a buff tough guy or give shellguard on all 4 of his shell attacks.
I think of all the heavies Bowser is the only heavy that has no form of super armor even with customs

The Smash community really needs to lose this no customs mentality. I don't care how good or bad any player is regardless if it's some bum or if it's ZeRo or Nairo or me and I'll admit I'm not that great and I won't ever go to a tourney and wouldn't be able to if I wanted to. Restricting any character's options will only stagnate the game in the long run. Don't want to use them fine. Don't want to conform to learning how these moves work? Well that's a personal problem. But Magius some customs are broken projectile moves. Well guess what? We Bowser's aren't new to projectile jank. Why should that stop us now. And why should a character like Palutena who was built around the idea of customs be effectively neutered? Do two tourney rulesets if you have to, one omitting customs and one with. At least represent that option.

That's like going to a Pizza place and only ever getting Pepperoni. No sausage, no bacon and no supreme pizza's and no salads being offered. No delivery either. You either walk in and sit for 30 minutes or get out. In this day? Inconceivable.

Or eating meat raw and never cooked. Doesn't sound all too healthy. You want to fry or grill that slab of meat and put seasoning on it to give it flavor and that's exactly what customs does for the roster. Gives them more flavor. More options.

How are the lower tiers to ever step up to the plate if we can't optimize our skills to the best of our abilities? Do we stick with an unreliable command grab and HOPE they fix it. There was no hope back in Melee or Brawl, no patches were coming out.

Should we pity the DLC characters fate of no customs and those dregs who were too lazy(did not have the time but have the time to go to tourneys or simply don't care) to acquire customs moves for all the characters? I say neigh.

After all if this is as good as it gets competitively should I simply expect all the Sheik's, ZSS's and Diddy Kongs to be running around. Mind you the characters listed are just an example.

Sounds boring when you look at it from that perspective.

GRUMP GRUMP

Rant over.

While I love customs and want them to be the standard, some need rebalancing and until they give them to DLC I can't fully support it. It is basically like the creators saying that customs don't matter. All those DLC characters are unfinished and now we will get more who suffer the same fate. They need to help bring customs into the light otherwise most if not all of the community will keep the same attitude.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Personally the lack of customs on dlc reeks of incompleteness. Or lack of thought.

 

[S_B]

I don't think Bowser warrants a throw follow up. Not everyone should have a throw followup and/or a kill throw and definitely having Dthrow as almost always the only combo throw is so boring. A lot of the suggestions have been on point with a really good one being Dthrow burying opponents. While that can lead to combos like Lucas if thy don't mash quick enough it can totally help to put on more damage or get them with a forward smash while they are popping out.

TBH, the only reason I suggest a throw followup is simply because it does next to nothing for casual players, and most of the SSB4 playing that happens is still done by casuals.

I mean, you could also buff Bowser by making his fsmash break shields 100% of the time, for example, but that would make him insane in casual play and Sakurai definitely doesn't want to do that.

If they could figure out some way to buff him in competitive play but NOT casual, sure, I'm behind that.

My favorite idea would be to bake some of his customs into the default moves. Like tap B for fire shot, hold for fire breath, or Toward+Tap B for klaw, Toward and hold B for dash slash, Toward and double tap B for dash klaw, or even down+B for bomb, down+hold B for trip bomb, down + double tap B for wind bomb, but this will literally NEVER happen post release of the game.

And if it sounds OP, remember that Diddy's side+B is basically three moves baked into one: it's a recovery tool, a command grab, AND an attack all in one move (and the command grab can spike and add to your recovery depending on what you press after you land it...).

It's actually funny how crappy Diddy's custom side B's are because his default is already three moves in one...

 

[Deadlyx]

While I love customs and want them to be the standard, some need rebalancing and until they give them to DLC I can't fully support it.

Too bad this is probably never going to happen.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I might not know what I'm talking about, I came back from a long Smash hiatus and only picked up Smash 4 to play with friends. My guess would be, aside from hitbox fixes, a guaranteed combo throw at low percentages would help. King Dedede can go from down throw into F-Air for a free 26%, and on heavier characters like Bowser he can do it twice. Having something similar in Bowser's U-Throw could be very helpful in getting early damage. It also would make sense if hitting the hurtbox on his shell didn't do as much damage. We already have a mechanic like that for Bowser Jr, and it would help given some characters phase in and out of his hitbox.

Edit: Regarding the projectile issue, many of Bowser's attacks can negate several projectiles, aside from Flame breath. For example, Bowser's B-Air can neutralize a fully charged Charge Shot from Samus, regardless of percentage. F-Tilt can cancel any damage from Bowser Jr's cannon, Samus's missiles, and can even match the "strength" of some Smash attacks, such that they cancel out.

 

[S_B]

Edit: Regarding the projectile issue, many of Bowser's attacks can negate several projectiles, aside from Flame breath. For example, Bowser's B-Air can neutralize a fully charged Charge Shot from Samus, regardless of percentage. F-Tilt can cancel any damage from Bowser Jr's cannon, Samus's missiles, and can even match the "strength" of some Smash attacks, such that they cancel out.

True, but generally speaking, the problem isn't that Bowser can't deal with incoming projectiles but that the pressure put upon him as a result of these projectiles keeps him constantly on guard while he has no way to pressure back and no speedy means of approach (without customs, anyway).

As a result, the opponent is constantly getting or setting up for reads on Bowser while Bowser can do jack squat back to the opponent most of the time.

The end result is that, when Bowser DOES get in, the damage he gets to do pales in comparison to the damage that gets visited back upon him throughout the course of the match. Yes, Bowser is expected to take more damage than he gives, but given that Bowser generally needs a good read to get any damage in at ALL, it's not uncommon for an enemy to deal 150% to him in the time it takes Bowser to deal 50% back.

With no safe poke, Bowser is forever looking for a read, and any decent opponent will KNOW that Bowser is looking for that read and will work to see to it that he never gets it.

A combo throw would help Bowser to ensure he gets the damage when he does manage to land that grab and would be a way to confirm KOs in the same circumstance.

 

[MagiusNecros]

K. Projectiles.

Canceling them out with our ground attacks is always a loss because of the recoil that only happens on the ground. So any momentum you would have gained is lost and by time you can act another projectile is already on the way. Fsmash can potentially negate everything on 1-3 frames but the cooldown is so long it doesn't matter.

Only way to gain ground on the ground is to literally powershield your way over there and have ungodly precision while doing so.

The only exception to this rule is SH Fair and SH Bair where you throw your attack out have no lag on land and can keep going.

Recoil does not happen in the air or on aerial attacks. And Bowser doesn't ever want to be in the air to begin with.

Bair is really strong it can say no to large projectiles as well but it is very situational in when you can use it and is unreliable.

Fire Breath can negate most small projectiles but the cooldown is long enough to where you suffer the same problem as just negating one with your standard attacks. All ground and momentum towards your opponent is lost.

You can mitigate this with both Dash Slash and Fire Shot as you can cover the whole stage in a sweeping attack and Fire Shot may not stop projectiles but it is in essence a huge laser ball and if you are in range you and the opponent will both likely take a hit.

Play without customs and we pretty much have to powershield, wait until our opponent gets tired before we do and slowly approach and force a mistake from fatigue and irritability,as well as hope latency is PERFECT, if we fail to do all these things we will take massive damage and after one mistake we will die.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Bowser doesn't ever want to be in the air to begin with.

I can understand most of your post but this in particular confuses me a little. Against fast, combo-happy characters like ZSS it sort of makes sense, but with the huge vertical range on Bowser's F-Air, wouldn't he be able to hop a little with it? Granted, not so much as to be a reliable attack strategy, but enough that it could be useful in getting brief combo, as seen in a recently posted thread.

 

[S_B]

Play without customs and we pretty much have to powershield, wait until our opponent gets tired before we do and slowly approach and force a mistake from fatigue and irritability,as well as hope latency is PERFECT, if we fail to do all these things we will take massive damage and after one mistake we will die.

This. So much this...

It's also worth noting that if Bowser had better airspeed, this hypothetically might not be as much of an issue because he could cover a lot more distance in a single jump. For example, DK can jump backwards over a projectile and cover enough distance to Bair the opponent in the face before they're done with the lag from firing the projectile, as his airspeed is just that much better. In this way, DK can still effectively get a read from halfway across the stage.

Minus this airspeed, Bowser has to approach on the ground. So yeah, we're basically playing the "godlike powershield game" (which royally sucks with any latency at all) and is still going to be annoying against any enemy with a fast projectile.

The end result is that the opponent can just wear us down over time, meaning we have to play twice as hard just for the CHANCE to do some damage.

Either we need a poke of some kind or we need to get more off a grab to compensate for how hard it is to actually get in in the first place.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I can understand most of your post but this in particular confuses me a little. Against fast, combo-happy characters like ZSS it sort of makes sense, but with the huge vertical range on Bowser's F-Air, wouldn't he be able to hop a little with it? Granted, not so much as to be a reliable attack strategy, but enough that it could be useful in getting brief combo, as seen in a recently posted thread.

Short hopping is fine but when I see Bowser's chasing in the air I scream internally.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Short hopping is fine but when I see Bowser's chasing in the air I scream internally.

Ew. Chasing in the air with Bowser. You're gonna make me cry lol

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ew. Chasing in the air with Bowser. You're gonna make me cry lol

Yeah some people who put up a few video's I see that and the only advice I ever give is pretty much "STOP JUMPING. Do not do that."

 

[S_B]

Even shorthops are best used to bait airdodges, after which you fastfall and fsmash.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If I jump anymore it's shorthop backwards and let out a Fire Shot.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser isn't a character known for exercising patience, but if you sit at the other end of the stage and calmly block projectile shots It really screws with your opponent and their will to keep up projectile spam. Your shield won't ever run out at that range until they start moving closer, and that's your way in. I also like Fire Breath for its ability to nullify many projectiles, particularly the ones that they like to follow behind - paralyzer shots, Fireballs, turnips, etc.

As for shielding and approaching, it's a drag, but there is a distinct difference between blocking projectiles and blocking a melee attack. Projectiles have the same speed. They don't slow down and purposely delay, pull up shield, grab you, or empty jump. There's definitely variance with moves that charge up like Link's arrow (god I hate that move when playing Bowser, I could write an essay on the anxiety that move brings once you have your shield up early), but if you're watching the point that its released, you can almost block shots without ever taking your eyes off the other guy. You especially want to watch Sheik since needles aren't visible. Power shielding isn't necessary, it's flashy, but the block advantage gained from perfect shielding a projectile versus a melee attack is night and day. Projectiles have you locked in a block state for 14 frames minimum (not factoring hitlag modifiers, the minimum is 5 shieldlag plus 2 shieldstun plus 7 frames to put down shield). Perfect shielding cuts the 7 frames shield drop lag, but you don't need that extra help since the "fire rate" for most weak projectiles is often a maximum of one that you need to block per second until you're in punching distance. The time between blocks easily lets your shield regenerate enough to compensate the damage sustained. They start regenerating the moment you put down shield and the rate is fairly high.

 

[FooltheFlames]

It seems all that Bowser ever needed was a half decent Projectile of his own...
I love using the KLAW, but part of me wishes it had been replaced with those Hammers he threw way back in the day~

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Bowser isn't a character known for exercising patience, but if you sit at the other end of the stage and calmly block projectile shots It really screws with your opponent and their will to keep up projectile spam.

This. I don't play competitively, but often on For Glory, when I come across higher-tier char players and I'm running Bowser, consistently perfect shielding tends to bring them to me.

 

[Metalex]

We were joking (maybe not joking) a while back about making his D-throw bury people, but I remember also discussing making D-throw launch at a very horizontal angle so it would be ideal grab for Bowser to use it at the edge of the stage, facing the blast zone.

That way, it wouldn't be a traditional kill throw, but it would at least give Bowser some means of putting people somewhere other than in the air. While Bowser has a lot of anti-air tools, none of them matter when no one is going to be dumb enough to land on him in the first place. :\

Making it hit the opponent in a horizontal angle sounds like a very good idea!

I personally thought of an idea that Bowser's Dthrow should work like Snake's in Brawl and just make the opponent stay on the ground instead of flying away so it becomes a tech chase scenario like with Ganondorfs Side special. I think it makes sense since Bowser is flattening the opponent after all Don't know how practically useful it would be though.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Making it hit the opponent in a horizontal angle sounds like a very good idea!

I personally thought of an idea that Bowser's Dthrow should work like Snake's in Brawl and just make the opponent stay on the ground instead of flying away so it becomes a tech chase scenario like with Ganondorfs Side special. I think it makes sense since Bowser is flattening the opponent after all Don't know how practically useful it would be though.

Bowser in general needs something that shoots out horizontally. I said in another thread (Maybe "Bowser's Most Needed Buff," I can't remember) that much of what Bowser struggles with is that most of his moves hit out and up. Characters like Ganondorf and Little Mac, who are known for their less than stellar recovery, can still make it back just because of how far Bowser hits them towards the upper corners. Maybe I'm playing him wrong, but whenever I get a good hit off with Bowser, if it doesn't kill on the initial blow then I can almost always count on the other player on making it back to the stage.

 

[S_B]

Bowser in general needs something that shoots out horizontally. I said in another thread (Maybe "Bowser's Most Needed Buff," I can't remember) that much of what Bowser struggles with is that most of his moves hit out and up. Characters like Ganondorf and Little Mac, who are known for their less than stellar recovery, can still make it back just because of how far Bowser hits them towards the upper corners. Maybe I'm playing him wrong, but whenever I get a good hit off with Bowser, if it doesn't kill on the initial blow then I can almost always count on the other player on making it back to the stage.

I must concur.

Was playing some today and I was just thinking about how goddamn annoying it is that so many of Bowser's moves launch for the corners where our opponent is guaranteed to survive the longest instead of straight-up horizontally or vertically. D tilt is one of our best kill moves because, lo and behold, it actually launches horizontally instead of right for the corners like every other damn move...