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Where do you think Sonic stands as of today?

-Blue-

Smash Journeyman
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just reading this im gonna say, yes, tiers exist but what does that have to do with a brawlers natural ability. and to answer the rest of the questions, sonic can be boring for most brawlers who try to main him why? bc he doesn't really have what others call good match-ups. but how wrong all that may be. sonic is very fast with little to no lag in his attacks and very hard to pick up on if noticed. i've noticed many sonic mainers try to be offensive with sonic and use his speed to overwhelm their opp. that will almost never work.
Sonic is a very light character why risk taking unwanted damage trying to kill first or even gimp. now have anyone thought to say hmm, what if i played sonic in a defensive way. you all might be thinking well his moves are very simple and straight forward. well why not stay close and avoid until spotting an oppening then exploit it fully then retreat and start over. this will leave most of you strategies hidden and keep a sonic unpredictable. by now, a spindash has become VERY predictable in the world of smash and how it can combo, why because you only have 2 to 3 options. dont worry about tiers and where sonic stand bc with all sonic mainers we progress in reading moves far more and effectively than any other character mainer. we have fast reflexes. why use it in a way that you can think sonic could overpower anyother character. sonic stands at a point that it really depends on the brawler controlling him. we must learn to readapt to diff characters every match.
if there is one thing to know about sonic that would be try to conserve as much % as possible and dont rush in thinking speed will overrun things. you will be punished for it. be wise and stop trying to use his speed to overwhelm opp. but use his speed to think 3 steps ahead of your opp. be defensive in speed to avoid and then punish those who try to attack. with sonic one other tip would be to try and play on every other characters lag and speed disability. not to outdo them but to make it known that a rush in sonic that attacks wildly hoping to make a hit wont work bc of low priorty but a sonic that becomes a threat bc one mistake on lag or a missed attack could cause much % damage or a possible kill.
 

ROOOOY!

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Sonic's not very light, he's one of the heavier middle weights. I agree with you otherwise though, I'm very campy/defensive with Sonic (on the match-ups that permit it, anyway.)
 

-Blue-

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sonic easily dies at a fair 110% higher if lucky and facing characters with limited kill moves that take much time and prep to pull off. you'll only last bc sonic can avoid most smash attacks. not even mk or ddd can kill sonic very quickly.
 

RixMaadi

Smash Cadet
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Sonic's not very light, he's one of the heavier middle weights. I agree with you otherwise though, I'm very campy/defensive with Sonic (on the match-ups that permit it, anyway.)
I thought Sonic's weight was just slightly below Mario's weight?
 

Napilopez

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I've read all the posts on this thread, and I dont mean to be arrogant or anything, but I find it extremely interesting how different my impressions have been with Sonic as opposed to many others here. I agree with R4ZE in that I don't think theres anyone out there that can claim the title of a "master" of Sonic. Not that some people aren't really good with him, just that using Sonic well has so much depth that I don't think anyone really has a grasp of the potential of all his moves. It stinks that I just moved to college because I really want to try to play some really pro people with recognizable names in the series. I've played people whove been smashing for much longer than I have(I only really became good in brawl, was purely a scrub throughout all of SSB and SSBM, didnt even know u cud short hop), and with much more general smashing skillz than I do, yet I seem to do well consistently. Heck I don't even have much probs with projectile spammers or some extremely spammy MKs(spamming tornade, glide attack etc). Spring killing glides is quite annoying to MKs hehe.

Prolly the only character thats really given me trouble as Sonic is olimar, mostly because of his absolutely ridiculous grab range with low lag. But I don't even know that matchup well.

Stinks I just moved into college, no wii to brawl until i visit home weekends and stuff =/

Also for Sonic to be mid tier doesnt necesarily mean he has to beat all the characters below him. I mean I find Sonic to have quite good matchup with many of the higher tier characters.

The following is all from opinion but here it goes.
I agree with JayBee that Falco is quite even, at worst. Dedede is a breeze(unless that Dedede is near frame perfect with chain grabs, but the slightest mistake is easy to escape). DK is not particularly troublesome. Snake is an even matchup(it was even on blueterrorists matchup guide), something you can't say with much of the rest of the brawl cast. Zelda's an easy matchup for me usually. Peach is average. Luigi can be tough(Nair is ridiculus).

While many here don't see enough t validate Sonic as a "good" character, I don't see enugh to validate him as bad. I think one of the truly special and unnapreciated things about him, is that he truly has one of the most dynamic playabiliy in the game. Of course every character can be played in different ways, but I find Sonic to have such extreme cntrasts in playstyle in higher level play that its amazing.

For example, anthinus was extremely big on ASC before. He's lessened his use of it recently, but still he used it very well. Others barely make use of it. Some sonic's have a huge gimp games. Others prefer to wait patiently on the stage and then mindgame a KO(Mr. 3000). Some stutter step, some reverse stutter step. Some spinshot often, others prefer other approaches. SideB shield/grab cancels. Spring bombing. Recovery with SideB, recvery via wall jumping. Homing attack usage. Hyphen Smashing or DAC?. I personally make use of sideB invincibility frames for mindgames alot(allow urself to be outprioritized with a low charged aurasphere, and then suddenly go right thru it with sideB invincibility, itll drive opponents crazy). Some use foxtrotted fsmashes, others prefer to screech stop fsmash, others yet prefer a dash turnaround fsmash.

And as any educated Sonic main knws, theres still alot of other options that Sonic has. I play with a large variety of characters and don't think any of them, with the exception of perhaps a couple have as many combined options for approaches, attacks, mindgames, AT usage, etc, as Sonic does. I simply think its just too much and too early for anyone to really make good use of it all. Finally, really don't underestimate the power of Sonics running speed. Combined with shield cancelled dashes, shield cancelled spindashes, and powershielding, Sonic becomes extremely versatile on the ground. If you watch mr3000s videos, I honestly think that his great use of poweshielding is one of the reasons why he succeeds as a Sonic. Powershield to grab. So simple.

But ok this was really long and im finally away from home so I can be up till whenever so yyayy im done.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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Also for Sonic to be mid tier doesnt necesarily mean he has to beat all the characters below him. I mean I find Sonic to have quite good matchup with many of the higher tier characters.

That's more important actually. Captain Falcon was high mid and he had bad matchups against a lot of the lower tier characters. Notably Pikachu and Luigi.
 

JayBee

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youre right. sonic has a lot of even matchups when you understand him well. And his greatest strength is that he can be played so many ways in every aspect. I really want him to not be low tier, at least in more smashers minds than ours. sigh.
 

R4ZE

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Ok im just gona throw out some responces to all the stuff i read on this board:
-sonic has a high learning curve even if u arent tlaking about his advanced techs, just controlling him in general is hard. how many times have u guys used ur 2nd jump and then spun to ur death? or used up b and then dair off the stage? well i know it happened a lot to me, and its a ***** to get past stuff liek that.

-it makes sense: wolf is the easiest character to pickup and play imo, which is made obvious by the fact that a week after the game came out about half players (who were noobs) played wolf, and actually didnt do that bad either.

-MK is slightly harder to elarn than wolf, but obviously a lot better once taken up to that level.

-I play better with sonic than any other character at this point, and i feel confident going into a macth against any character, i don't counter pick... because i know if i play sonic right, i CAN WIN.

-a good sonic does not die at a fair 110%, a good sonic DI's properly, and does not get hit by beastly laggy moves that kill him under 180%. The hardest moves to avoid are mk and G&Ws down smashes because they come out of nowhere, so u simply stay out of that hit box and ur fine. You have to treat a lot of other moves the same way I'm sure. and YES, my sonic actually usually survives up to about 180% each life.

-The sonic olimar matchup is won by (obviously) gimping, but u knew that... and proper use of ASC really nails olimar. (keep in mind i can admit when ASC does BAD in a match, such as vs G&W) ASC'ing into Olimar at the right angle gives olimar no options for countering, (be too high for him to grab/f smash, and too low for him to uspmash) I have no problems with that matchup.


Sonic has mad potential guys, its true, there is so much proof of it.
 

Umby

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It's true that Sonic has potential, but as of right now, that only lies within the person controlling him. When considering a generalization of how a character fits into a tier, however, you can't rely on how well a specific person is doing with that character (obviously) or any specific options a character would have in a certain tough match up. Much of the fact will based on pure statistics and movesets, and most timesmajor tournament standings.

Fact of the matter is I don't really care how Sonic is ranked among the rest of the cast, I just personally am able to come to grips with facts and accept Sonic's weaknesses. While he may have potential, it isn't really showing now, and he'll have a long way to go before he'll be able to prove otherwise (if at all).
 

JayBee

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exactly, despite how well we guys play sonic, and it sounds like most of us are real good with him, overall, people play him horribly. that's the reason why he's low.
 

ROOOOY!

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Being knowledgeable helps.
I'm not the most skilled person with Sonic. I can't pull off ASC combos consistantly, I can't gimp well, my decision making is awful, and there's other bad things too I'd imagine.
What is most important is knowing the match-up. Sonic has to adapt and change his playstyle for practically every freakin fight. Knowing the 'do's and do not do's' actually really helps.
[/being a nerd]
 

IceDX

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exactly, despite how well we guys play sonic, and it sounds like most of us are real good with him, overall, people play him horribly. that's the reason why he's low.
We really should be discussing why is Sonic low tier bc that is judged on tournament play and Sonic is an underused character bc people think hes bad bc its hard to learn to play as him... but sonic is not a bad character by any means it just all depends on matchups
 

ROOOOY!

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Sonic's not hard to use per-se, just kinda complicated. That's why people don't use him, because you have to be on the ball ALL THE TIME and you have to be concentrated and thinking clearly the whole match to win, no matter what level of opponent you're playing.
To win with Sonic you have to be smart.
To wn with Metaknight you have to 'B' smart.
And that's the difference. There's not really a way that Sonic can take the game to his opponent. It's always being played by someone else rules, so to speak.
 

aeghrur

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Sonic's not hard to use per-se, just kinda complicated. That's why people don't use him, because you have to be on the ball ALL THE TIME and you have to be concentrated and thinking clearly the whole match to win, no matter what level of opponent you're playing.
To win with Sonic you have to be smart.
To wn with Metaknight you have to 'B' smart.
And that's the difference. There's not really a way that Sonic can take the game to his opponent. It's always being played by someone else rules, so to speak.
Sigh, so true it hurts. =( The thing is, we can win under other peoples rules... hopefully. right? Dx
 

Duality

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I think Sonic is a character with tons of potential. I have no trouble fighting any match up in my experience besides MK. I can do good or decent with other characters but MK is just a bomb. When I go into matches with MK, it's rediculous how I can barely get in for a hit. The only thing that really works for me is dash combos and running up to him with sonic speed and grabbing him by surprise or mind games. But once he's in the air it's nado nado or those annoying impenetrable sword slashes.
 

ROOOOY!

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Sigh, so true it hurts. =( The thing is, we can win under other peoples rules... hopefully. right? Dx
I suppose so, there are no impossible match-ups. The problem is with Sonic though is comfortability and sustanance. Sonic can dictate the match in no way at all thanks to his priority and lack of long range options. Even if I'm doing some sort of 'combo', I always feel uncomfortable that I'm going to be hit out of it really easily. Even if on the outside I seem to have momentum building and I'm overcoming and pressuring the opponent or whatever, I always feel like I'm on the back foot.
Playing Sonic is hard work because the same thing never works twice in one match or set. People pick up on Sonic's playstyle really easily and counter it and I don't think it's an issue of predictability. I often find that after a bad start to a match (which is typical of me, I ALWAYS start a match badly) that I'll probably be a stock up when the opponent is in their final one. Then you just run out of ideas. Try and repeat an approach you used before and you're just swat straight out of it. They've grown wise to your playstyle, you can't find a reliable way to rack up damage, and before you know it they're beating you.
Does anyone know how to counter that problem at all? Or is it just typical or Sonic?
 

Super_Sonic8677

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I suppose so, there are no impossible match-ups. The problem is with Sonic though is comfortability and sustanance. Sonic can dictate the match in no way at all thanks to his priority and lack of long range options. Even if I'm doing some sort of 'combo', I always feel uncomfortable that I'm going to be hit out of it really easily. Even if on the outside I seem to have momentum building and I'm overcoming and pressuring the opponent or whatever, I always feel like I'm on the back foot.
Playing Sonic is hard work because the same thing never works twice in one match or set. People pick up on Sonic's playstyle really easily and counter it and I don't think it's an issue of predictability. I often find that after a bad start to a match (which is typical of me, I ALWAYS start a match badly) that I'll probably be a stock up when the opponent is in their final one. Then you just run out of ideas. Try and repeat an approach you used before and you're just swat straight out of it. They've grown wise to your playstyle, you can't find a reliable way to rack up damage, and before you know it they're beating you.
Does anyone know how to counter that problem at all? Or is it just typical or Sonic?
It just means you need to learn moar stuffz XD But yeah I have similar problems as you in terms of how I feel when playing Sonic and making sure to mix up my game.
 

Tenki

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Then you just run out of ideas. Try and repeat an approach you used before and you're just swat straight out of it. They've grown wise to your playstyle, you can't find a reliable way to rack up damage, and before you know it they're beating you.
Does anyone know how to counter that problem at all? Or is it just typical or Sonic?
It's a player fault.

I was playing against one ROB when in the middle of my ASC/feint-based playstyle, I randomly decided to switch to grab+chase like __X__'s match against his brother and racked up enough damage for the kill, then switched back.

`.`;
 

Camalange

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But I thought Sonic played by his own rules?
(Just joking)
But seriously, everything that's being said is one hundred percent true. And it's not like we can learn more tricks can we? Unless something mind blowing is discovered, we're going to be stuck with what we got, which isn't too bad, but it's nothing spectacular.
 

ROOOOY!

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I do switch it up a lot. It's probably because I try to many different styles at the start of the match that I'm clueless towards the end.
Though thanks for that Tenki, you highlighted the issue.
 

R4ZE

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haha... i dont mean to be rude... just put some faith in sonic... or better yet... dont play so serious.. just mess around and try **** out with sonic. u may find some new tactics that way. plus its more fun!


im just saying... when u run into a wall with anything... u should start thinking outside the box.
 
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