What's Your Opinion on Crouch Canceling?

[Chesstiger2612]

Just one idea about it:
How much a character can crouch-cancel gets affected by a new variable individually set for every character: So Melee characters could still be at the same rate, characters that really need CC (like ROB, but don't put in too many) get a higher value and so on...
Crouch-cancel now requires a real SDI down input so you have to work for it (now I do it not on purpose even sometimes and as nice as it is for me I wouldn't have deserved getting the CC punish).

 

[DrinkingFood]

SDI goes further than ASDI and can be done for multiple frames on many attacks instead of just one like ASDI.
There's a reason you can't SDI into the ground, and it's because it would enable CCing from even like 2 feet off the ground

 

[DrinkingFood]

****ing smashboards

 

[Giygacoal]

I'd be okay with CC if it did not make 35 characters basically not have jabs.

Same here... somewhat. I'd just like to have more encouragement for grounded attacking.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Jabs still have plenty of use as a safe poke on shield, and opponents coming from the air
Really the best option to deal with CCing would be to enable more characters to abuse opponents using it, make it a bad option under certain circumstances, like peach can

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There's an important distinction to be made: There are characters that usually CC because they want to, and there are characters that usually CC because they -have- to.

The former use it in tandem with both offensive and defensive potential and don't need to be reactionary; it's another mix-up in their toolset that is often useful without relying on poor timing or spacing from an opponent because they control the pace of the match. The latter generally do it as the safest option because they're often placed in positions where they don't have much else available, and in that case it doesn't limit opponents nearly as much when you consider every option they have in neutral.

Regardless of its effect on balance overall, does that idea seem reasonable enough? Are there characters that cleanly fit into one category or the other, or is there much more to it in some cases?

 

[1MachGO]

Could someone explain how separate crouch cancelling and land cancelling hitstun is? If crouch cancelling were "removed" would stuff like fox's nair>shine continue to work into percents where nair hits you off the ground?

 

[Oracle]

Idk reflex that seems like a broad generalization. I mean, yeah, characters use ccing to different levels of effectiveness, but thats true with every technique or option in any fighter. Sometimes characters have better cc/backdash/roll/burst moves, thats just how it is if you want diversity. And slow characters having a predisposition towards defensive options is also not a new concept of fighters. Slower characters usually cant just run in so they tend to rely on better defensive options and better punishes to compensate (generally speaking), which happens to be ccing in this game.

I disagree that the more mobile characters use crouch canceling in the same way you describe, as a sort of extra "icing on the cake" option. Generally mobile characters tend to be, well, moving around a lot, which means its gonna be difficult to find time to stop moving and hold down, unless some mean prediction happens, whoch is obviously something that should be encouraged. If a character is so succeptible to ccing that a mobile character can run away and react to them getting close every time by holding down, then its probably more of a problem with that character than the mechanic.

Unrelated te: its interesting to see that one of the main reasons shines are broken moves is that theyre quick and safe in block, like a jab, but also cannot be cced

 

[Strong Badam]

if ccing actually required you to not be moving i'd agree but what most people refer to as "CCing" is ASDI down which can be done at any time anywhere as long as you aren't high off the ground.

 

[TreK]

speaking of which, do you do the true CC while crawling, or it it just ASDI down ?

 

[Strong Badam]

true CC only while crouching, nothing else.

 

[FireBall Stars]

I'm okay with CC, but if it was possible to make ASDI down unavaible during other ground actions I believe it would improve the mechanic. In other words, CC+ASDI down in neutral is nice and adds depth to the game and ASDI down while being punished isn't very good due to diminish the punishing potential for some characters.

Still, being knocked down or forced to tech is a disavantageous position so the mechanic doesn't break the game. Also there is counter play with grabs and meteor smashes so a game can sustain itself just fine with CC and ASDI as they are now. Meteor Smashes are specially good at high percents on someone using true CC due to allowing follow ups you don't normally get at that percentage level.

They might limit some design decisions but they have their place in the metagame and a game can be healthy with it, even with more heavy weight and super heavy weight characters viable.

 

[Guel]

. And slow characters having a predisposition towards defensive options is also not a new concept of fighters. Slower characters usually cant just run in so they tend to rely on better defensive options and better punishes to compensate (generally speaking), which happens to be ccing in this game.

Werent these characters given super armor to make up for their lack of speed? CCing is just so braindead to me.

" Hmm reading the opponent is too much work so ill just CC and punish harder than what im getting punished for."

Imo the tradeoff isnt balanced.

 

[Mera Mera]

Werent these characters given super armor to make up for their lack of speed? CCing is just so braindead to me.

" Hmm reading the opponent is too much work so ill just CC and punish harder than what im getting punished for."

Imo the tradeoff isnt balanced.

I'm not sure if anyone has super armor, but only Bowser, Squirtle, DK's dash attack, DK's fully charged punch, Ike's neutral B have heavy armor iirc (maybe some of those are super?). Yoshi has medium armor on his second jump so there's that too (I've heard it called medium armor... not sure if that's the right name but heavy armor + subtractive knockback when armor breaks).

Regardless, if you're talking about true CC (where the person is actually crouching), then I'd have to disagree. You can't crouch during a dash, so in order go from movement to a crouch cancel you have to be in a run or do a wavedash first (which has jumpsquat for start lag and 10 frame air dodge landing lag for end lag).

If someone could just crouch and wait for an extended period of time and still expect to succeed at a crouch cancel -> counter attack, then that's an issue (assuming this works against competent players). But as far as I know, no character can do that.

 

[Oracle]

Well you would have to know your opponent is going to do something you can cc so you can stop moving and wait for him to hit you and not grab or something.

 

[BILL?]

If you stand in place crouching in this game, you're gonna get ****ed up.

I'm pretty sure you can crouch out of a dash, think it's called dash canceling.

The big characters get comboed so hard off of one good hit, CC gives them a chance to turn that hit into an opening if the player knows what move is coming and if it can be cc'd.

If every weak hit that I landed at low % led into a safe followup, the heavies would lose out even more to characters with a decent approach. (If there was no ccing, an unshielded Dtilt etc or even jab into a tilt would almost always lead into a massive combo, especially since big characters are so easy to hit)

Heavies have enough BS and cheese to put up with already, and it's not like PM is dominated by big characters.
Just learn your matchups and %'s, and abuse it yourself.
Losing CC seems like a cruel and unusual punishment for those players who chose to main heavy characters.

Also, it provides an additional advantage to a player who can stay at low% longer, (yet it also adds damage as the tradeoff so they can't just cc everything forever

 

[BILL?]

Also I'll admit a certain degree of bias in favor of CC'ing.
•because it is a basic mechanic which adds complexity to matchups
•because being able to CC a dumb approach is useful.
Because getting my dumb approaches CC'd encourages mixups and attempts at further understanding follow-ups, safety of moves, and % awareness.
•it does have issues but removing it might not be the way to go, maybe a different scaling of the effect is better.

 

[Brim]

Dude. This is a silly topic - like Vigilante said it's basically a trade off just involving cancelling (as long as the other attack even hits you).
I really don't see a problem with it. So many characters need the tactic, and used properly it is kind of a "get out of jail card" I don't see why removing a mechanic, that's not only fair but can require skill to implement effectively should be removed. I mean, even dash crouch cancelling is weird to do but oh so rewarding.

 

[TreK]

Btw, footstooling technically is a counterplay to CC. That's so 20XX.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Too bad you can't (properly) footstool attacking opponents

 

[1FD]

There's an important distinction to be made: There are characters that usually CC because they want to, and there are characters that usually CC because they -have- to.

The former use it in tandem with both offensive and defensive potential and don't need to be reactionary; it's another mix-up in their toolset that is often useful without relying on poor timing or spacing from an opponent because they control the pace of the match. The latter generally do it as the safest option because they're often placed in positions where they don't have much else available, and in that case it doesn't limit opponents nearly as much when you consider every option they have in neutral.

Regardless of its effect on balance overall, does that idea seem reasonable enough? Are there characters that cleanly fit into one category or the other, or is there much more to it in some cases?

TOTALLY THIS YOU ROCK

 

[Spiffykins]

It matches Melee 100% exactly. Please offer counter examples of moves that haven't changed at all from Melee that are affected more by CCing than in Melee. If you can't find any, please cease in spreading misinformation.

The problem here is that most viable Melee characters aren't very heavy. Falcon, Dr Mario, Peach, and Ganon if you want to stretch, are the heaviest. Peach is arguably the best out of that bunch and is also the lightest out of that bunch.

Now we have, as you already mentioned, heavy characters that were buffed, new heavy characters, characters with increased weight, and Bowser with his armor on top of CC.

The simplest solution I can see is to change how CC scales with weight so that it has a minimal impact on low/mid weight characters and a slightly more noticeable effect on heavier characters. This makes the math a bit trickier than just a simple ratio of the original KB, but it should work.

 

[DrinkingFood]

"Let's make it so the heaviest characters, for whom crouch canceling makes the most sense, can't do it any better then light characters!"
Because this idea makes any kind of sense

 

[Scuba Steve]

Sometimes, I feel like people think that heavy characters are obligated to suck.

 

[NisforSmash]

Crouch canceling is cool but there some nuances to it. A lot of characters that don't need it for their play style can use it as a big f u to characters who actually must incorporate it in their game play. It kinda seems too lenient. I've played a couple of matches where whoever i was fighting would just hold down and mash the A button and would stuff whatever i was trying to do. I probably could have rethought my approach in those matches but it still didn't seem right that they could just break out as easy as they did. It's not a big deal honestly but sometimes i wonder why approach with nair when i can just go in and shield grab.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think that FBS's idea sounds like a nice compromise, honestly. It's much less of an option select that way, which makes all of its uses limited to committing yourself to it entirely.

 

[Mera Mera]

If you stand in place crouching in this game, you're gonna get ****ed up.

I'm pretty sure you can crouch out of a dash, think it's called dash canceling.

The big characters get comboed so hard off of one good hit, CC gives them a chance to turn that hit into an opening if the player knows what move is coming and if it can be cc'd.

If every weak hit that I landed at low % led into a safe followup, the heavies would lose out even more to characters with a decent approach. (If there was no ccing, an unshielded Dtilt etc or even jab into a tilt would almost always lead into a massive combo, especially since big characters are so easy to hit)

Heavies have enough BS and cheese to put up with already, and it's not like PM is dominated by big characters.
Just learn your matchups and %'s, and abuse it yourself.
Losing CC seems like a cruel and unusual punishment for those players who chose to main heavy characters.

Also, it provides an additional advantage to a player who can stay at low% longer, (yet it also adds damage as the tradeoff so they can't just cc everything forever

You can crouch out of run, not your dash. Your dash being the set distance you move when you attempt to start a run and within that period you can dash backwards without doing a slow turn around (aka dash dance). You can't crouch until your dash ends.

Also, fastfallers have pretty solid true crouch cancels iirc. For true ccing, I think having faster fall speed might actually matter more than weight (though both matter).

Weakening ASDI down sounds pretty reasonable actually. I could agree to that compromise.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Also, fastfallers have pretty solid true crouch cancels iirc. For true ccing, I think having faster fall speed might actually matter more than weight (though both matter).

The opposite is true actually. Not sure if this is the case for Melee/PM, but iirc it's actually supposed to be the same for Melee as it is brawl (with the exception of hitstun canceling ofc). The higher a character's gravity, the more their vertical knockback is scaled up to compensate. So they effectively get sent at a slightly higher angle with more knockback. Hitstun increases with knockback so this doesn't artificially make them harder to combo than a fast faller should be, but it does mean that at any percent they are taking more knockback than floaty characters their weight, meaning true CCs (and pseudo-CCs) are less effective.

This knockback adjustment only appears to take place in brawl, so disregard this post.
This doesn't mean fast fallers DO have an easier time CCing tho, i'll address that in a later post

 

[Mera Mera]

The opposite is true actually. Not sure if this is the case for Melee/PM, but iirc it's actually supposed to be the same for Melee as it is brawl (with the exception of hitstun canceling ofc). The higher a character's gravity, the more their vertical knockback is scaled up to compensate. So they effectively get sent at a slightly higher angle with more knockback. Hitstun increases with knockback so this doesn't artificially make them harder to combo than a fast faller should be, but it does mean that at any percent they are taking more knockback than floaty characters their weight, meaning true CCs (and pseudo-CCs) are less effective.

Huh. The more you know.

My impression of how crouch canceling worked was that the vertical component of knockback had to be greater than their fall speed (but this was just a guess). I know crouching reduces the knockback by *2/3, but what knockback does it have to breach to get them to lift off the ground? Is there some set number for everyone?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Huh. The more you know.

My impression of how crouch canceling worked was that the vertical component of knockback had to be greater than their fall speed (but this was just a guess). I know crouching reduces the knockback by *2/3, but what knockback does it have to breach to get them to lift off the ground? Is there some set number for everyone?

To lift someone off the ground I'm pretty sure it just has to have some component of vertical knockback.
Then, if you're CCing (or pseudo-ccing which usually accompanies true CCing) you'll ASDI down in the same frame you get lifted, making you land again. Even jabs usually lift you off the ground, unless you're CCing in which case you land instantly. So if you're referring to ASDI down, the move has to have enough vertical knockback that they travel farther upward in the first frame after hitlag than they can ASDI down in that same frame.
Most attacks have a threshold where they won't lift the opponent that far, but they'll still cause knockdown-strength knockback, which why CCing leads to a knockdown/techchase situation if you try to CCing a move that strong.

 

[Mera Mera]

To lift someone off the ground I'm pretty sure it just has to have some component of vertical knockback.
Then, if you're CCing (or pseudo-ccing which usually accompanies true CCing) you'll ASDI down in the same frame you get lifted, making you land again. Even jabs usually lift you off the ground, unless you're CCing in which case you land instantly. So if you're referring to ASDI down, the move has to have enough vertical knockback that they travel farther upward in the first frame after hitlag than they can ASDI down in that same frame.
Most attacks have a threshold where they won't lift the opponent that far, but they'll still cause knockdown-strength knockback, which why CCing leads to a knockdown/techchase situation if you try to CCing a move that strong.

But from that description doesn't that mean that crouch canceling would be better for fastfallers? You are falling during knockback, so any given move they are hit with should lift them vertically less than floaties. I suppose this is before the knockback adjustment you talked about, so it might depend on how severe the knockback adjustment is...

 

[DrinkingFood]

But from that description doesn't that mean that crouch canceling would be better for fastfallers? You are falling during knockback, so any given move they are hit with should lift them vertically less than floaties. I suppose this is before the knockback adjustment you talked about, so it might depend on how severe the knockback adjustment is...

This is a misunderstanding of how falling speed works with knockback. It doesn't directly change your knockback, as knockback is a unitless value that determines your launch velocity and hitstun. You are falling during aerial hitstun, sure, but it takes time to reach any appreciable downward falling speed. How fast a character reaches their maximum falling speed is determined by their gravity. Outside of brawl, gravity doesn't affect the amount of knockback you receive. Launch velocity determines how far you travel in the first frame of knockback, and then decays by a certain amount every frame, making you travel less distance per frame. It's counteracted by falling speed in that as your falling speed approaches its maximum value at the rate of *gravity* every frame, the amount you fall per frame increases and your upward knockback velocity decays until fall speed is greater than upward knockback velocity, which begins the downward portion of the launch arc. Fast fallers tend to have the highest gravities, but that doesn't matter; ASDI only only occurs on the FIRST frame after hiltag, during which I believe your fall speed is 0 regardless of character, which means the number of units downward you travel due to falling speed would be 0 for Fox or Jigglypuff. It's possible that the first frame of gravity might take effect on your fall speed on the first frame which might take effect on your position change the first frame; I'm not entirely sure on that one. But if it does, the difference between characters would be very small as it takes even the highest gravity characters several frames to achieve their maximum falling speed.

 

[BILL?]

tldr: (but not rly) fall speed has ecfect on things like vertical distance launched, since they have more gravity pulling them down, but this factor is not input until after hit lag ends. Weight affects base KB during hit lag and after, but is less of a factor as far as vertical KO % is concerned

Basic 2D vector addition would explain why the small vertical KB component on things like jabs matter, and also why the small positional change resulting from ASDI down can cancel that; i do not know enough about the actual threshold but if the vertical KB during hit lag is less than the downward distance covered by ASDI down on first frame after hitlag, you hit ground on frame after hitlag and thus have reduced hit stun etc. if the attack KB is slightly higher, you get knockdown B/c you landed while in hit stun after the end of hitlag and this get knockdown and cc Teching. Failed cc is when angle is not vertical up, so things like dsmash can't be cc'd successfully b/c you actually DI with the hit and perpendicular against the hits that would send you outward a, making you take 9001% b/c wtf made you cc in peach dsmash range.


Did I get it? Lol
Also my grammar is amazing and I can't see my screen so sorry if this has ridicule dos typos

EDIT: thanks to DrinkingFood for the table thingy, just read the post under this to get a quick explanation of different situations and how CC/pseudo-CC interacts with attacks)

 

[DrinkingFood]

Didn't quite get it. ASDI occurs on the first frame of hitstun, which is the frame after the last frame of hitlag. It's also not an angular change but a positional one. Only regular DI affects the angle. Pseudo-CCing works by the mechanic that simply cancels hitstun upon landing, and puts you In a regular empty landing state, with the exception of moves that send at any horizontal-or-lower angle (although that exception may not apply to semi-spikes hitting already-airborne characters). Hitstun is even canceled if you get knocked down, but obviously puts you into either a tech situation or a laggy knockdown animation. The knockdown threshold is 80 knockback iirc.
So here's a little table or what-have-you of different situations:

For moves that send above horizontal angle-
If ASDI-down distance > vertical launch distance on first frame, and knockback value < 80,
you CC with 4-6 frames of landing lag depending on character.
If ASDI-down distance > vertical launch distance on first frame, and knockback value > 80,
you CC into getting knockdown, which you can tech with godly timing of pressing shield before you get hit.
If ASDI-down distance > vertical launch distance on first frame, and knockback value < 80,
you would get launched without going into a tumble animation, meaning no knockdown if you let yourself land (idk if this situation can even happen).
If ASDI-down distance < vertical launch distance on first frame, and knockback value > 80,
you get launched, and are past knockdown threshold, so you'll go into tumble, then knockdown if you let yourself land.

For moves that send below a horizontal angle-
You never leave the ground, so you can't ASDI-downward to land to go into the landing animation. You also can't ASDI/SDI this angle upward, something intentionally programmed in so you can't make yourself go airborne then land again to cancel hitstun. The only results are
You get sent sliding without being knocked down (semi-spike under 80 knockback)
You get sent sliding knocked down (semi-spike over 80 knockback)
You get crumpled over, which is the low-knockback hitstun animation for spikes/meteor that don't lift you off the ground
You get spike-bounced, which has 80% of the launch speed but 100% of the hitstun (easy to combo out of), if the spike/meteor hits hard enough to knock you down

I'm not sure if sufficiently strong semi-spikes can lift you off the ground given sufficient knockback.
So if anyone has more details on that (or corrections/details on anything) I'd love to know more.

 

[Guel]

Came back from a PM session not too long ago. Was running Tink one match (I think) and an Ike player CC my jabs at 111~116 %. Dont remember exactly info from that moment but I do remember the bull**** that went down lol. Now im not saying to remove CC but to tweak it because for it to work at that % thats some ****.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Jabs have low base knockback and next to no knockback growth, of course that can happen to them at high percents
Question is, why were you jabbing instead of running away and pulling a bomb
But seriously if he's DIing down the whole time (he probably was, jabs are too quick for that to have been reaction based CCs) you can abuse that fact with any quick strong outward sending for terrible survival DI
Seriously x2 you're ****ing toon link bombs combo into kill moves why were you not pulling a bomb

 

[Guel]

Jabs have low base knockback and next to no knockback growth, of course that can happen to them at high percents
Question is, why were you jabbing instead of running away and pulling a bomb
But seriously if he's DIing down the whole time (he probably was, jabs are too quick for that to have been reaction based CCs) you can abuse that fact with any quick strong outward sending for terrible survival DI
Seriously x2 you're ****ing toon link bombs combo into kill moves why were you not pulling a bomb

Ok now im starting to question you being an actual good smasher. Jabs are good regardless of character. Did you ever figure I already used my bomb and the space between us was closed too quickly to pull out another?Or maybe the bomb was blocked and I wanted to keep pressure? Toon Link is also a very mobile character with alot of combo potential. Heres just something of MANY to give you an idea of just one scenario(Pull Bomb->Open with Boomerang->Jump->Arrow while moving forward->Land->Bomb->Short hop->Nair->Lcancel->Tilt/Jab) Why would I limit myself to the campy bomb strat? ESPECIALLY with toonlinks remade normals that are just gorgeous and amazing. Everyone has their own playstyle. Thats what makes games unique. Do not try to say one style is superior to another as you never know a player till youve played them.

Off Topic: Ive been a breakdancer for 6 years aka a BBoy and we have terms for people like you. Theyre called EBoys in other words. Electronic boys. You type of dancers/players look good on paper/online as you know the foundations/mechanics of the dance/game from the videos youve watched or what youve read/learned. But when it comes to actually proving yourself? You guys fail in comparison to the real ones. After your comment I now consider you an EBoy.

Back on topic: You say "jabs are too quick for that to have been reaction based CCs" this is the exact reason CC needs fixing. Just as Reflex mentioned earlier when someones first reaction is to CC to get that option select to cover the majority of their problems thats not skill thats just them taking an easy way out which you just admitted to. The way you play it sounds like you lack footsy game so you rely on CC. A good player knows how to combat both. Stop trying to back up something broken and step your **** up. x2 #EBoy

 

[DrinkingFood]

So basically what I read there was "I'm too cool to have to prove myself because IRL I'm a breakdancer, so if somebody calls me out on not knowing how to respond to CCing I'm just going to tell them they have no credibility instead of proving that I have any credibility."
You're already operating on the premise that you know godly amounts about PM when you don't seem to have been playing it for long, so there's no convincing you.
You're actually right that I rely on CC a lot. But you don't seem to know why. I play ROB. He's got a terrible shield, terrible rolls, below average DD, an enormous blindspot on the ground right where most characters come in from the air for a SHFFL approach, and a fair number of other shortcomings. But he's heavy, so he's got a lost lasting CC, and he's got a dsmash that hits frame 5 and sets up for combos. I CC a lot because it's ROBs best and only really effective way to deal with grounded opponents.
Sounds to be like you're just ******** about CC because you play a light character with weak attacks that loses a lot to CC and gains little from it.
You got dolphin netplay? Get it. We should play.

Inb4 toilethumor comes in and tells the great tale of how he 4 stocked me 100 games in a row with nothing but an arcade stick on the first day he played PM even though I've been playing PM for 5 years and he hasn't played smash since brawl 9 years ago

 

[Guel]

So basically what I read there was "I'm too cool to have to prove myself because IRL I'm a breakdancer, so if somebody calls me out on not knowing how to respond to CCing I'm just going to tell them they have no credibility instead of proving that I have any credibility."

That was just childish...Theres a difference from knowing how to respond to something and knowing when something is broken. My guess is you havent played melee long enough to know how CCing should work.

I've been playing PM for 5 years

You're already operating on the premise that you know godly amounts about PM when you don't seem to have been playing it for long, so there's no convincing you.

Seems my 14 years of melee experience has no influence on my PM turnout? Not to mention my N64/Brawl play AND fyi ive playedPM back when it first dropped but it was just too clunky. Made my return 2.6 and have been playing ever since. Im operating on experience buddy. Dont think I could say the same for you as you seem to haved played PM and PM only.Do not forget the meaning behind the "M" in ProjectM. How it was born/founded. How all of this came to be The original goal in mind ->Melee.

You're actually right that I rely on CC a lot. But you don't seem to know why. I play ROB. He's got a terrible shield, terrible rolls, below average DD, an enormous blindspot on the ground right where most characters come in from the air for a SHFFL approach, and a fair number of other shortcomings. But he's heavy, so he's got a lost lasting CC, and he's got a dsmash that hits frame 5 and sets up for combos. I CC a lot because it's ROBs best and only really effective way to deal with grounded opponents.

Sounds to me like youre looking for ROB solutions in CCing when you should be taking this up with PMBR about fixing "said" problems.

Sounds to be like you're just *****ing about CC because you play a light character with weak attacks that loses a lot to CC and gains little from it.

I also play Cap, DK, Fox, Ike , Samus(floaty but still heavy) and more but these are just my heavy ones.

You got dolphin netplay? Get it. We should play.

If you check im the one who actually created the wifi thread for wii for when im not playing in person which is almost every other day.. So no I dont have dolphin.Not because I dont want to but because my PC is bad and I actually own a wii which i got day 1 specifically for smash. Brawl ended up being garbage luckily PM gave me a reason to use my wii again and lucky you because I would have loved to body your ****.

Anyway I will not be responding to you if you reply again as we are coming off topic from the thread and ruining it in the endless argument of who is better which cannott be decided as we play on two different systems.

 

[tauKhan]

I'm not sure if sufficiently strong semi-spikes can lift you off the ground given sufficient knockback.
So if anyone has more details on that (or corrections/details on anything) I'd love to know more.

No, if you don't get knocked down. Even many moves with above horizontal trajectory won't lift you off the ground if the knockback is too low. Fox's strong nair doesn't lift another crouching fox off the ground at 0%, leading to nair -> shine being combo on 0% crouching fox, but standing fox that is asdi's down will land cancel the stun and can counter the nair. This is one reason why I would like land canceling hitstun being removed from pm.