What's Your Opinion on Crouch Canceling?

[BILL?]

Would weakening ASDI down potentially interfere with DSDI survival DI and ASDI in combos? Like ASDI down with DI laterally to slightly prolong survival vs vertical KO moves?

Also, its a good thing fox has to use not Nair at low %. that move is seriously safe on so many things as it is, and I play fox fairly often and don't think he should be nerfed. It also means that characters with strong CC games like peach force fox to use Dair to approach, which is less safe and has a smaller range than Nair; she can CC or pseudo cc Nair until like 80%. and nobody wants to get Dsmashed while holding down to fast fall, so you have to adjust your play to suit that.

Also who the **** cares who is better. Just keep it to constructive discussion of CC, pseudo CC, ASDI stuff, and occasional hatred of space animals and n00bs only when absolutely necessary to advance the discussion.

 

[tauKhan]

Foxes weak nair is actually good vs crouching opponents at early percents, and this is what's the problem with crouch cancelling: Why is foxes weak nair better than strong nair against crouch, it makes no sense.

 

[DrinkingFood]

That doesn't have to do just with CCing, that also has to do with the Sakurai angle.
Moves with a knockback angle set to 361° don't send at that angle. The game is programmed to have them send at a really low angle at really low knockback and a much higher angle at anything past a certain knockback threshold. Since true CCing decreases knockback to 2/3, it will happen until even greater percent's that fox's weak Nair will have lower knockback than the required threshold for the Sakurai angle to change its angle such that it will allow Nair to lift you off the ground.
If anyone was unaware, the Cstick allows pseudo-CCing at all times by holding down on it (it will trigger a dsmash/dair when first pressed tho), freeing your left thumb for the control stick. It's an awkward position since you'd have to claw face buttons during it, and you don't always want to ASDI down, but this would enable you to pseudo-CC against something like fox's Nair without having to crouch.

 

[BILL?]

couldn't you also just watch them coming, know the spacing of fox dash>SHFFL Nair (which we all should, 20XX isn't that far off) and react to their jump (preferably to the Nair startup if you are quick, so you don't try to CC a Dair or shield a tomahawk>grab) with either CC, shield, or evasive maneuvers depending on whether you think its going to be a strong Nair or a deep/weak nair.

WD OoS is an option select for a CC tech if you get hit out of the jump, btw.

 

[tauKhan]

@ DrinkingFood Thanks, that explains everything. According to the smashwiki, sakurai angled attacks have 0º knockback angle in melee and pm when the knockback is smaller than 32. This must indeed be the reason why they can't be cc'd at low percents.

 

[Mera Mera]

tldr: (but not rly) fall speed has ecfect on things like vertical distance launched, since they have more gravity pulling them down, but this factor is not input until after hit lag ends. Weight affects base KB during hit lag and after, but is less of a factor as far as vertical KO % is concerned

I'm not sure on this, but I thought weight only affected knockback growth, not base knockback. (Does anyone know? *cough @ standardtoaster *cough)

Also, weight has an affect during hitlag??? I thought, barring SDI/ASDI, you didn't move during hitlag.

 

[Strong Badam]

Additional weight decreases the initial KB the move sends you, which means your ASDI + Falling Speed Acceleration has less to work against to cancel it in those initial frames. Additionally, more weight means attacks will take longer (more %) to put you into tumble; when you've past the tumble threshold you'll end up grounded or have to tech instead of just canceling hitstun and acting immediately.

But you are correct, the KB happens AFTER hitlag is over.

 

[standardtoaster]

nevermind lol

 

[Mera Mera]

Additional weight decreases the initial KB the move sends you, which means your ASDI + Falling Speed Acceleration has less to work against to cancel it in those initial frames. Additionally, more weight means attacks will take longer (more %) to put you into tumble; when you've past the tumble threshold you'll end up grounded or have to tech instead of just canceling hitstun and acting immediately.

But you are correct, the KB happens AFTER hitlag is over.

My question is what aspect of knockback is modified by weight?
Like is it:

(base_knockback + knockback_growth * %) / character_weight
or
(base_knockback / character_weight + knockback_growth * %)
or
(base_knockback + knockback_growth * % / character_weight)

I thought it was the last of the three simply because I didn't think weight affected the knockback on moves with only base knockback.
All three would have weight affect the initial knockback (barring moves with only base knockback or only knockback growth (ah... and only knowback growth doesn't happen?)).

Though yeah, it makes sense to me know that initial knockback would matter more than fall speed, since it's downward acceleration not some constant fall speed.

 

[Strong Badam]

Weight doesn't affect BKB.
There are no moves that are set in KB and just use BKB though. They use Weight Dependent Set KB, which is divided by weight.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Weight doesn't affect BKB.
There are no moves that are set in KB and just use BKB though. They use Weight Dependent Set KB, which is divided by weight.

Excluding throws right?
And fox's shine would be an example of something with weight dependent set KB yeah?

 

[Fortress]

Crouch cancelling is doing work against me? Better stop spamming dash attack and go for grabs then.

If crouch cancelling is absolutely ruining your game, then you've really got to examine your playstyle if that alone is losing you matches.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Crouch cancelling is doing work against me? Better stop spamming dash attack and go for grabs then.

If crouch cancelling is absolutely ruining your game, then you've really got to examine your playstyle if that alone is losing you matches.

or stop playing Squirtle

 

[BILL?]

Shine also involves traction, at least for grounded fox shine. Might be other stuff. Shine is weird tho, not too many moves like it.