Meta_Sonic64
Smash Master
No exceptions!
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
what's wrong with cloned movesets?
- Thread starter Chiastic
- Start date
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
I guess. Maybe we can consider the clone idea as a worse case scenario.
SamusLord
Smash Cadet
imagine this scenario:
You're playing SSE in brawl... omg! you meet up with your favorite character EVER! omg he's in brawl! you fight... and you win, "yay"! a message appears...
"'so and so' has been unlocked, and is playable from the character selection screen!"
" hooray"! now, you go back and check him/her out. wait a minute...
examples:
geno: b- throws a bouncing blue magic ball w/ little knock back.... seems similar to someone...
forward b- magically turns foes around and deflects projectiles
down b- pushes foes away, but does no damage
up b- rises up in a very straight line and inflicts damage.... "wth? this is mario dressed as a puppet!"
dark samus: b- charges up, then releases a ball of energy to shock foes
forward b- launches a missile
down b- turns into a ball and lays a bomb
up b- rises up in a sphere of energy
ganon: b-breaths a horizontal pillar of flame
forward b-slashes w/ claws, may grab foe
down b-leaps up and pounds the ground
up b-spins wildly around
"wow... why'd i work so hard if i could just play as mario, samus, and bowser respectively?!?!"
yeah, waist of a character space, and a COMPLETE let down when they are unlocked. thus there will be NO cloned characters in brawl, and the above characters, if they get a spot in brawl will have original move sets.
You're playing SSE in brawl... omg! you meet up with your favorite character EVER! omg he's in brawl! you fight... and you win, "yay"! a message appears...
"'so and so' has been unlocked, and is playable from the character selection screen!"
" hooray"! now, you go back and check him/her out. wait a minute...
examples:
geno: b- throws a bouncing blue magic ball w/ little knock back.... seems similar to someone...
forward b- magically turns foes around and deflects projectiles
down b- pushes foes away, but does no damage
up b- rises up in a very straight line and inflicts damage.... "wth? this is mario dressed as a puppet!"
dark samus: b- charges up, then releases a ball of energy to shock foes
forward b- launches a missile
down b- turns into a ball and lays a bomb
up b- rises up in a sphere of energy
ganon: b-breaths a horizontal pillar of flame
forward b-slashes w/ claws, may grab foe
down b-leaps up and pounds the ground
up b-spins wildly around
"wow... why'd i work so hard if i could just play as mario, samus, and bowser respectively?!?!"
yeah, waist of a character space, and a COMPLETE let down when they are unlocked. thus there will be NO cloned characters in brawl, and the above characters, if they get a spot in brawl will have original move sets.
notftomearth7
Smash Lord
Nothing really. It's just a big disappointment when you go through all that work to unlock a character, only to find that they have the same moveset as another character.
Meta_Sonic64
Smash Master
My point, why have clone, when you can make a character unique.
Zoo-bellocks
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 119
Imagine this scenario:
You're playing all through SSBB. You do EVERYTHING there is to do until you've unlocked a whole bunch of characters. But what's this? No Dark Samus/Wolf/Whoever? You go on the internet to look up cheats to see if you've missed anyone. Nope. You've unlocked all characters.
"Wow. Character X would have easily worked as a clone and would have taken Sakurai only a little bit of time to model. Why, Sakurai? Why?"
Learn what a waist is. It's part of the anatomy. Also learn what a waste is. Putting characters who NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN IN OTHERWISE AND TAKE NO SPACE AWAY FROM CHARACTERS WITH ORIGINAL MOVE SETS is not a waste. Prepare to eat your words about there not being any cloned characters in Brawl. There will be. You don't need a time machine or be working on the game to deduce such.
vesperview
Smash Hero
There's absolutely no way someone like Pichu or Dr. Mario could have a unique moveset, all of the others could have gotten unique movesets, specially Ganondorf, such a waste.
Zoo-bellocks
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 119
My god. Some people just don't understand game development. Sakurai can't snap his fingers and magically produce a totally original character.
Meta_Sonic64
Smash Master
I still don't get your point. Sakurai has had more than enough time to develop this game and is still doing so. Why the **** would he add clones when he has no time constraints and has been on this game for years?
When you've had this long to make this game, I find it rather easy to have made a unique moveset for characters by Feb 10th or Mar. 28th
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2007
- Messages
- 5,164
This man said it best.
Sakurai should certainly take as much time as he can making original movesets. But when it's crunch time, you better believe I want him to start cramming in clones.
Meta_Sonic64
Smash Master
But this isn't the case with Brawl, although it's almost release time, they've had more than enough time to make unique movesets.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2007
- Messages
- 5,164
Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of unique characters in Brawl, but honestly, if there's time to make a clone character but not enough time to make another unique one (or simply out of ideas) better to give us that character for all the fans who wanted him or her than leaving him or her out completely.
I'm not saying Sakurai will put clones in, but I think it'd be nice if he did because that just means more characters. There is no downside to clones (as long as there isn't enough time to include a whole new character).
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
I think Pichu could have a unique moveset with stuff like Sweet Kiss, Charm, Thunder wave, and more. A moves and his/her final smash may require creativity.
Ryudo_Sama
Smash Ace
There were cloned characters because Sakurai didn't have enough development time, Melee was rushed. But now, Brawl is delayed and has more than two years of development, so there should be no clones, unless there are more than 45 characters.
Heck, even that many fighters wouldn't be that much trouble, I've come up with 27 unconfermed posibitys each with at least 1 move different from another, even falco
i´m pretty sure we´ll see clones in brawl and more than enough movesets in the game with the rest of the toons.
you guys think that adding a clone will remove a spot for an original moveset. stop thinking sakurai says "we´ve got space for 30 characters, and we´ve got 29 chars so far, should i put in a clone or an original?". its more like "we´ve got 30 original characters, lets add 5 more cloned characters to make it feel even more populated and tweak the movesets around"
bai
you guys think that adding a clone will remove a spot for an original moveset. stop thinking sakurai says "we´ve got space for 30 characters, and we´ve got 29 chars so far, should i put in a clone or an original?". its more like "we´ve got 30 original characters, lets add 5 more cloned characters to make it feel even more populated and tweak the movesets around"
bai
DynamiteSpoony
Smash Journeyman
^QFT.
With at least two years of develoment (not even counting any amount of time they spent working on it before it was announced), there's really no excuse for clones this time around. And there's also the possibility for another delay if they need it.
I, and many other people, would much rather have more original characters and variety, and clones should be kept to a strict minimum, if any at all. This is why I support Claus over Ness, Ridley over Dark Samus (Before you kill me for this, I'm not saying DS would be a clone. I'm just saying that Ridley is more unique), and Geno over Bowser Jr. (see my comment on Dark Samus)
Clones are a waste of time for both the staff making the game and the fans to wait on them. Clones have unimaginative movesets....being the exact same as another character. There's little to NO point in having cloned characters. When it came to Captain Falcon and Ganondorf some people prefered one of the other because of differences in weight, strength, and speed. But thats just totally unnecessary. We dont need multiple characters of different weights and strengths. How about some creative movesets so we dont see the same stupid attacks everytime from different characters.
Thedude3445
Smash Apprentice
It'd be nice if he had clones for characters that could have absolutely no chance of having an original moveset, like Pichu and Dr. Mario, but they could have some original moves, like Pichu having some move like sweet kiss, where Pichu could stun enemies by controlling that little angel thingie from the move's animation on Pokemon Diamond & Pearl. Clones will only be necessary if they release updates like on Guitar Hero 3.
Ryudo_Sama
Smash Ace
So what would you people rather have? 30 characters with original movesets, or 55 characters, which of course half of them are clones. I pick quality over quantity.
Ghost07
Smash Journeyman
Some of you are very simple minded.
How could you know how long it takes to make a new character.
One problem with adding new characters is balance. For instance meta Knight.
Clones are alot easier to balance than original chars. because their moves are copied.
Clones also add to the roster , they don't take it.
Clones are gonna be be in brawl . If you don't believe read this.
In every mario game is luigi not a clone of mario. Same for fox and falco.
For you people who hate clones, show me a balanced original moveset for falco or other char.
who are clones in their own series.
How could you know how long it takes to make a new character.
One problem with adding new characters is balance. For instance meta Knight.
Clones are alot easier to balance than original chars. because their moves are copied.
Clones also add to the roster , they don't take it.
Clones are gonna be be in brawl . If you don't believe read this.
In every mario game is luigi not a clone of mario. Same for fox and falco.
For you people who hate clones, show me a balanced original moveset for falco or other char.
who are clones in their own series.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Actually, Mario, Luigi, Fox, and Falco all have different stats in their series.
Ghost07
Smash Journeyman
I was talking move wise.
Over course they have different stats.
luigi jumps higher than maro.
falco jumps higher than fox but fox is faster.
If brawl has 25 original characters and they could add 2 more original
characters or 8 clones what would you choose. Don't forget that these
2 original character might suck.
Over course they have different stats.
luigi jumps higher than maro.
falco jumps higher than fox but fox is faster.
If brawl has 25 original characters and they could add 2 more original
characters or 8 clones what would you choose. Don't forget that these
2 original character might suck.
Ryudo_Sama
Smash Ace
The 2 originals.
Machspeed
Smash Lord
Alot of people want more different playing styles, so that every way people wish to play can be accommodated.
Chepe
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 1, 2006
- Messages
- 1,146
Going easy on clones and having only very few of them as different from their counterpart as Falco or Ganondorf in Melee wouldnt be too bad I suppose. But stuff like Pichu, Young Link, and Dr. Mario, NO! These are filler characters that dont deserve to have their face on the roster screen or a Final Smash or a place in Subspace Emissary.
In fact, I think thats one of the main reasons why Sakurai is removing some characters. Final Smashes are supposed to be distinctive and personal, to have two with the same animation is a big no no. But, clone characters are supposed to have the same animations with different effects, and having a totally unique final smash would defeat the purpose and look inconsistent. So, just cut the filler characters out and only keep those worthy enough to be distinguished enough from their counterpart...
In fact, I think thats one of the main reasons why Sakurai is removing some characters. Final Smashes are supposed to be distinctive and personal, to have two with the same animation is a big no no. But, clone characters are supposed to have the same animations with different effects, and having a totally unique final smash would defeat the purpose and look inconsistent. So, just cut the filler characters out and only keep those worthy enough to be distinguished enough from their counterpart...
Ghost07
Smash Journeyman
Clones are gonna be in brawl because they add more
appeal to the game. They don't take up space on the roster
so whats the problem.
appeal to the game. They don't take up space on the roster
so whats the problem.
El_Duderino
Smash Apprentice
The game got delayed three months. That is a rather clear indicator that regardless of how much time the team had to work on Brawl, it was not enough.
The only reason, the only one, mind you, that Ganondorf made it into the Melee roster was because Sakurai noticed at the last minute that his character model had the same body proportions as Captain Falcon. That's it. And the roster would have been worse without him, clone or no. That's why I want clones in. For all the Young Links and Dr. Marios, there is going to be at least one Ganondorf, and that alone will be worth it.
The only reason, the only one, mind you, that Ganondorf made it into the Melee roster was because Sakurai noticed at the last minute that his character model had the same body proportions as Captain Falcon. That's it. And the roster would have been worse without him, clone or no. That's why I want clones in. For all the Young Links and Dr. Marios, there is going to be at least one Ganondorf, and that alone will be worth it.
DynamiteSpoony
Smash Journeyman
Wow...
We're simple-minded because we want to play with original characters rather than mere rehashes of people we already have? ELL. OH. ELL.
The Melee clones were added in because of time constraints. By delaying the game, Sakurai's made it VERY obvious that he'll take all the time he needs to make Brawl the best of the series. You know that this means? No Dr. Marios. No Pichus. No Roys. All the copypasta-moveset clones will be gone. There still will be Luigi-like characters (it'll probably just be Luigi and Wolf/Falco, though), but overall we'll have unique characters.
Ghost07
Smash Journeyman
WTF! Why do you people think the game was delayed for character reasons.
Do you people forget that they're probably working on the w-fi, or maybe
they delayed the game for sales reasons.
You're simple minded because you don't realize there was not enough time
to add more original characters. It was either clones or nothing at all.
Time equals money , and sakurai is not made out of money. Sakurai can't delay a
game just becuase he wants to add more chars....He has bosses you know.
Do you people forget that they're probably working on the w-fi, or maybe
they delayed the game for sales reasons.
You're simple minded because you don't realize there was not enough time
to add more original characters. It was either clones or nothing at all.
Time equals money , and sakurai is not made out of money. Sakurai can't delay a
game just becuase he wants to add more chars....He has bosses you know.
DynamiteSpoony
Smash Journeyman
I really doubt it was delayed for sales reasons. Or for hype. The line of crappy updates on the Dojo to stall for time is plenty proof for that, as well as the fact that they passed up THE FRIGGIN' CHRISTMAS SEASON. It's gotta be for gameplay polishing, character additions, or something like that.
And even if it's for reasons like perfecting Wi-Fi, SSE, or whatever, it still proves they're not willing to rush this game out the door like they did with Melee. And if they're putting that effort into the gameplay aspect, why the hell would they shortchange us on characters?
Of course there is, and of course he can. This game has already been in development for over two years, and if he needs to, Sakurai can always delay the game again. Besides, it's not all coming out of Sakurai's pocket. The game is funded primarily by NINTENDO, and unless they add fifteen third-party characters, they'll be able to develop all the original characters they want.
El_Duderino
Smash Apprentice
I'm more concerned about the number of people who assume you can slap together a new original character in a day or two. Sure, you can write up a half-***ed moveset for whatever character you want in a few hours, but that doesn't even begin to think about scratching the surface of what the development of a Brawl character actually entails. It's just an abysmal lack of understanding about game and software development on display here. Just because they had more time than Melee does not change the fact that they cannot cram every character that they want into the game and have them be completely original. There will be characters that they have to decide whether to scrap or clone. What's on debate here is whether people would rather see them scrapped, or cloned. There is no middle ground.
Ghost07
Smash Journeyman
Wow give yourself a cookie..........
Sakurai is a busy man. I doubt he's coming on these forums and reading our topics.
Sakurai wants to please everyone, but he can't delay a game for more original characters.
Do you know how long it takes to add a new character to a game. ....It's alot of work and a two month delay not enough time for original characters.
also I truly doubt he's even the one who does the Dojo updates.
DynamiteSpoony
Smash Journeyman
Of course not every character they want will be made playable. That's what ATs are for.
You know what? With ATs, there really isn't an excuse for clones anymore. After all, giving a character just one, automated attack is far easier than even copypasta-ing a moveset onto another character.
I'd rather have 35 original characters than a 50-character roster where 15 are clones.
Right, because Sakurai's working on this game completely on his own. There is totally NOT a development team.
Ghost07
Smash Journeyman
Sakurai DOES NOT OWN NINTENDO! Nintento is a business. He can't delay a game just because he wants too. Every character cost money and Nintendo not gonna give him
an endless supply of money.
El_Duderino
Smash Apprentice
So, had ATs been in Melee, you would have been perfectly OK with Ganondorf and Falco being ATs?
Also, all of the statements about characters taking a while to produce apply to development teams. If Sakurai were all by his lonesome, I'd expect the game to have a 2050 release date.
DynamiteSpoony
Smash Journeyman
Ganondorf? No. Falco? Yes. With all that time they spend not working on Falco, they could give Ganondorf an awesome moveset with his sword.
Did I say own? No. I said FUNDED. The better funded this game is, the better it'll turn out. The better it turns out, the better it'll sell. The better it sells, the more money Nintendo will get. They have absolutely no reason to shortchange Sakurai and his team in its development.
Chepe
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 1, 2006
- Messages
- 1,146
This was an ignorant statement and you know it. While clones dont take as much TIME to create as an original character, they do in fact take as much space and room in the game to implement. And the only things that dont take as much time to implement for them are move animations. With Subspace Emissary and such, any character implemented needs to have their own path or involvement with the story etc...
And Im sure I wasnt the only one who didnt like seeing Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Young Link on Melee's roster. It just looked messy.
Ghost07
Smash Journeyman
Did I say own? No. I said FUNDED. The better funded this game is, the better it'll turn out. The better it turns out, the better it'll sell. The better it sells, the more money Nintendo will get. They have absolutely no reason to shortchange Sakurai and his team in its development.[/QUOTE]
Sorry Funds don't make a good game.
Clones are for the people who like that certain character.
Who cares if they are just copy of someone else. If they can get
into the game rather than being a AT then put them in.
Look at ken and ryu in Street Fighter, I promise you no one complains.
Again Clones add to the roster they don't take up spots.
Sorry Funds don't make a good game.
Clones are for the people who like that certain character.
Who cares if they are just copy of someone else. If they can get
into the game rather than being a AT then put them in.
Look at ken and ryu in Street Fighter, I promise you no one complains.
Again Clones add to the roster they don't take up spots.