What's with the pros?

[Luigi Ka-master]

Alright, first off, I'm not talking about all pros, only a good number of them. I seek the answer as to why they have their certain attitude toward the game. The attitude that I'm talking about is where the pros sandbag even in tourneys.

Why do they do it? Is it because they feel the prize for winning isn't worth the effort they have to put forth to do their best, or even just because they don't care about winning at all? Or is it simply because they're bored of the game? Are they trying to give others a chance at winning?

These things lead me to another question: If any of these are the reason why they don't play their best, do they do these things because they're tired of competetive play? Which unfortunately leads me to another almost sub-topic type of question: Why is losing the fun of competetive smash such a common thing for these pros?

Some enlightenment would be nice, thanks.

 

[controlfreak7]

Well I'm thinking maybe some pros (keyword some) like to showoff by sandbagging in a weird kind of way. This showing off is shown to the people they know are sandbagging. They can showoff by doing this whole well I don't have to play to my fullest to beat you.

The pros that lose because of sandbagging (if there are any), for all I know do it to boost ppl's confidence. My little cousin got 2 stock off DSF because he wasn't trying at first, then after a little into the match he kept dash attacking my cousin (cause he didn't know how to tech). And after the match DSF complimented him telling him that he was pretty good and to not give up and learn how to get better. I think he was trying to boost his confidence. I don't think that it has anything to do with getting bored of the game. It might have something to do with not revealing their style too much when it isn't neccessary.

If any of this is because of the loss of fun in competitive play, if any reason it would be, that when they started to play the game and were fast to learn new techs and mindgames to use. That was an enjoyable part of playing the game. They started off their careers having fun, but when it starts to slow down and they get good enough, it starts to become more about the money. I don't think any pro's original motive was to play for money, but if it was Halo would be a much better choice.

 

[JFox]

Most pros don't sandbag when something is on the line. Most of them do it in friendlies. There are very few that will sandbag when they feel threatened by the opponent. For those, I guess they just aren't playing to win, they are just there to enjoy the people not the game.(I'm thinking about Isai mostly)

When pros sandbag in friendlies, its because beating the crap out of people is boring. So at least sandbagging keeps it close. And if they lose, they don't care because they were just sandbagging. Also, people sometimes just get bored in between real competitive play and so while they are playing scrubs, they just put little attention into the game because its just passing the time before the most important stuff comes.

 

[Junpappy]

Do any pros sandbag even if their opponent asks them to go serious on them? If so, those are the sandbaggers you should be criticizing.

 

[usea]

I'm honestly surprised that smash tournaments still don't have rules against sandbagging. Evo2k has the following rule from here:

Collaboration of any kind with your competitors is considered cheating. If the Tournament Director determines that any competitor is collaborating or intentionally underperforming, the collaborating player (or players) may be immediately disqualified. How will they be able to *prove* that you threw a match or collaborated? Proving that you threw a match would require the judges to read your mind, wouldn't it? Yes it would, and since they can't read your mind, they can't prove that you threw the match. Fortunately for them (and the fans, and everyone else) this rule is included to state that they don't have to *prove* anything. If, after conference and possibly a review of the match, the Tournament Director determines that opponents are collaborating or that any competitor has thrown their match, those players may be disqualified from receiving any prizes and be ejected from the tournament. This determination is to be made at the sole discretion of the Tournament Director. No one who isn't planning on cheating has anything to worry about--this is a simply a safety rule included to prevent shameful displays. Anyone intentionally performing at less than their best disgraces not only themselves, but the competitive enterprise and the tournament as well. EVO2K doesn't want you.

Basically, if you're not interested in playing competitively then don't come to a competitive tournament. It seriously goes against the entire purpose and spirit of a competitive tournament.

MLG has a good rule that states:

Any intentional forfeiting or conspiring to manipulate the rankings/brackets will result in ejection and possible suspension from future tournaments.

It at least disallows throwing the match, but doesn't go as far as to regulate sandbagging.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

I do it in friendlies all the time. The thing I do to take my playing down a notch is stop using shine, but use only reflector.

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

I'm honestly surprised that smash tournaments still don't have rules against sandbagging. Evo2k has the following rule from here:

Basically, if you're not interested in playing competitively then don't come to a competitive tournament. It seriously goes against the entire purpose and spirit of a competitive tournament.

MLG has a good rule that states:

It at least disallows throwing the match, but doesn't go as far as to regulate sandbagging.

Wow, that's pretty crazy. I've never seen that before.

And RagingAsian, I'm not criticizing the pros for sandbagging, I'm just trying to figure out why they do it. (In matches that have things at stake, that is) I already can figure why they would do it in friendlies, sometimes even if the person asks them to play serious.

Hmm...you have some interesting points there, control freak. I guess the pros all have their specific reasons why they would sandbag in tourneys and such.

 

[Link-NY]

=x why do pros sandbag? where my personal opinion is because there all just nice guys... say a pro just goes all out on a random person... then that person is gonna feel so bad of himself that he migth just quit smash... ive seen ppl that felt like this and had gone thru the same thing so they just dont wana **** u that hard =x

 

[Megachuk]

They don't sandbag, they just goof off. Trying to keep the game fun, instead of always competative.

 

[tofucake]

Nope. They sandbag. M2K sandbagged me in a friendly, and I still only lasted 1:36 :\

 

[loungeact404]

Well I'm thinking maybe some pros (keyword some) like to showoff by sandbagging in a weird kind of way. This showing off is shown to the people they know are sandbagging. They can showoff by doing this whole well I don't have to play to my fullest to beat you.

The pros that lose because of sandbagging (if there are any), for all I know do it to boost ppl's confidence. My little cousin got 2 stock off DSF because he wasn't trying at first, then after a little into the match he kept dash attacking my cousin (cause he didn't know how to tech). And after the match DSF complimented him telling him that he was pretty good and to not give up and learn how to get better. I think he was trying to boost his confidence. I don't think that it has anything to do with getting bored of the game. It might have something to do with not revealing their style too much when it isn't neccessary.

If any of this is because of the loss of fun in competitive play, if any reason it would be, that when they started to play the game and were fast to learn new techs and mindgames to use. That was an enjoyable part of playing the game. They started off their careers having fun, but when it starts to slow down and they get good enough, it starts to become more about the money. I don't think any pro's original motive was to play for money, but if it was Halo would be a much better choice.

Wow, this was a good read for me. You had a lot of good points and said things that just made sense.

 

[nublet06]

Nope. They sandbag. M2K sandbagged me in a friendly, and I still only lasted 1:36 :\

this doesnt really count as sand bagging tho. he is simply just not going to blow a fuse beating someone he will have an easy time with.

sand bagging is more along the lines of not playing to your full potential when things dont matter, so that when you play in tournament the opponent is suprised and off gaurd.

i think of it as the match would have to be close or mew2king would of had to lose in order for him to sandbag you.

its like when i play my friends next door neighbor. i prolly am not gonna play my main......and im prolly not gonna try my hardest. if i 4 stock him every game its just not going to be fun and hes not going to want to play. so if i pick a funny character like donkey kong he has more of a chance and things are just more fun overall.

as far as pros sand bagging. i think they do it for a competative reason......and then sometimes they are just bored. especially someone like mew2king. you cant possibly keep that super fast level of fox play going all day long. you have to cool off sooner or later. stamina is pretty important for those faster paying characters.

 

[Samochan]

Is there a specific explanation to the term Sandbagging? Can it be called sandbagging when someone pro player plays kinda badly, but not intentionally, just not 100% of his capacity for some reasons that vary, like hasn't warmed up yet, has not eaten well, feeling empty headed and tired ect. Could that kind of situation be classified as sandbagging or is sandbagging intentionally getting beat up and not playing 100% of one's capacity?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Just flexing their Smash-*****, is all.

If they can pull off a win haphazardly, they feel superior.

 

[Cra$hman]

Is there a specific explanation to the term Sandbagging? Can it be called sandbagging when someone pro player plays kinda badly, but not intentionally, just not 100% of his capacity for some reasons that vary, like hasn't warmed up yet, has not eaten well, feeling empty headed and tired ect. Could that kind of situation be classified as sandbagging or is sandbagging intentionally getting beat up and not playing 100% of one's capacity?

thats called johns

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I'm no pro at SSBM, but I am pro-level in other games (Descent 3, CS: Source) and I sandbag. I think a "pro" sandbags for a few reasons:

1. Not to show off everything to potential competitors.
2. Always doing what works won't help very much. There may be an aspect of the game that can be found when sandbagging.
3. Going all out just achieves the same result (win), which bores the pro and the competitor.
4. Playing with other characters than the main(s) helps the pro become a well-rounded player.
5. Achieving victory no matter what scenario is the mark of a true pro. It gives more satisfaction than winning the same way every time.

 

[REØ]

thats called johns

I have a friend who would always beat me at smash and was simply better than me than he broke his thumb(really bad almost snapped the **** thing off, eww) and I played him in a match, 3 stocked him, and he was like "my thumb is really messed up I have to wait a while for it to heal or else I would have beaten you."

Wh@t a n00b who maks johnz anywayz!!!11!11

True story though.

Edit:What I was trying to say is some johns can be accepted, these are only EXTREMELY rare johns that almost never happen.

 

[TomH]

I have a friend who would always beat me at smash and was simply better than me than he broke his thumb(really bad almost snapped the **** thing off, eww) and I played him in a match, 3 stocked him, and he was like "my thumb is really messed up I have to wait a while for it to heal or else I would have beaten you."

Wh@t a n00b who maks johnz anywayz!!!11!11

LOL

anyway...I got no problem with sandbagging, but i dont think its good to sandbag by not trying your hardest. The best ways to sandbag is to play a character you totally arent used to, or to do things like "not using shine" and things like that. When i played my friend who hadnt ever played smash before, i played as Mewtwo, and the only way that i would attack him is with the Cstick on the ground (so i was limited to Fsmash, Usmash and Dsmash for damage moves)...almost beat him >.> it was fun.

 

[Ceriph]

It is my opinion that to become a true pro of any game is break the barrier between seriousness and fun. Until you can lose the attitude that you always have to win you can't be pro. Your anger will cloud your play and you won't play to your potential.

You think they're sandbagging but they're playing for the fun. They're relaxing and letting the game unfold. I watch a guy at my school play and he's good, no great. However, he plays with ease. No tension, no urge to win.

Now sure he always wins except when we gang up, but theres no fun in the anger. Now these smash pros may not share this philosophy but it's something I've seen among pros of every game I've met. What is a game without fun?

 

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

Can you sand bag for the first or second stock, then play fully? Or is that not allowed either.

 

[usea]

Can you sand bag for the first or second stock, then play fully? Or is that not allowed either.

"Sandbagging" isn't disallowed in any form at any smash tournament that I'm aware of. Most tournaments are only concerned with friends artificially boosting eachother's placing by throwing matches and generally circumventing competition to win.

 

[froz3ntear]

I don't really mind if people go easy on me... It just annoys me when I beat them and they still don't try their hardest... but I've played against like lunin and SS 2 weeks ago and they went really easy on me, I could tell, but I didn't mind at all.

I feel like if I'm not at a high enough level to compete, I don't see why they should have to go all out if they don't need too. They practiced more, are more talented than I am, so I don't expect them to go all out. I kind of dislike it when people just start playing the game and go to pros expecting them to go all out, I mean, I see why you want to experience getting killed by a pro, but losing is losing, you probably learn more when you lose by simplier tactics, after you adapt, it will force the pro to actually try harder.

The only real problem I have with people sandbagging is in tournements, like manipulating the pools and the seeds by not winning all the rounds they could and letting others make the brackets who shouldn't have and causing the lower seeded/non seeded players to have inaccurate ranking by being placed with players who are better than their seed because they decided to lose a few rounds.

So i thought bout it for a few minutes, I can't convince them to try their hardest... one solution, get better than them so it won't matter. Its basically the solution for every person/obstacle in smash. Get...Better. Win.

 

[froz3ntear]

It is my opinion that to become a true pro of any game is break the barrier between seriousness and fun. Until you can lose the attitude that you always have to win you can't be pro. Your anger will cloud your play and you won't play to your potential.

Hmm I see your point with the anger clouding your play... but I think its anger with ignorance, because I try not to overcomplicate things when I play so I just do the minimum of what it takes to win, I win by as much as I can but I keep it simple because the more risks you take, the more chance you have of suiciding, Do the safest thing that works is how I play

In pools at nct2, I had to play against 3 Marths. I was playing pretty simple, slow, I remember not L canceling. When I got to the 3rd marth, I was very relaxed even though it was my first big tournement match, I just went at him with my normal pace because the last 2 marths were easy, and the first thing he does is chain throw me 50 percent (im fox btw) and smashes, I shrug it off, become more alert, He grabs me again and chain throws me, now its 2 vs 4 stock, him at like 30 percent.

I got pretty mad, it didn't help either that the 3 other guys near me were cheering for him saying "come on, you got this", and because I got mad. I started dash dancing into him, moving twice as fast as I was moving, if I got a grab on him, it was a 0 to death. First stock, grab, uair uair uair, dead. 2nd stock, grab, uair uair, fake jump, cause he loves to counter, then uair again, dead. 3rd stock, sex kick to 70 percent drill shine usmash dead.

So yeah, anger isn't always a bad thing, and I think the anger and will to get better can always be your drive to be a pro, but your point is valid also

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

it was funny, m2k sanbagged me by using game and watch and i won a match at smashtality 2, ROFL

Though yea, there are pros who sandbag who i have seen

And if their are rules against sandbagging, how does this apply to guys like Azen and such who don't have a specific character but they can use everybody well?

 

[Grey Fox]

If a pro does not have to play his best to beat you, why should he?

m2k is 2 good

 

[t0m0]

In a friendly game, sandbagging is ok IMO. But taken to the competitive scene (MLG, and anyother big tourneys) Sandbagging is wrong, people pay money to play in a competitive atmosphere, and against challenging opponents. So sandbagging completely takes away from the experience. Its not a appropriate thing to do at high levels of play, its wrong; kissing your sister wrong.

 

[xelad1]

In a friendly game, sandbagging is ok IMO. But taken to the competitive scene (MLG, and anyother big tourneys) Sandbagging is wrong, people pay money to play in a competitive atmosphere, and against challenging opponents. So sandbagging completely takes away from the experience. Its not a appropriate thing to do at high levels of play, its wrong; kissing your sister wrong.

I agree with this. I mean really we should ask ourselves why do we sandbag? Do you never sandbag against your friends or in random friendly matches? Sometimes I go all out and choose my best characters. Sometimes I sandbag with characters that I want to play competitively to get them used to playing a real match (I don't know if this is sandbagging since I'm actually trying with them). But dammit sometimes being competitive gets things too heated and serious and I want to lay back and play a character just for fun and do silly stuff.... though usually since these are friendlies my friends sandbag with me.

I think sandbagging against people (as a pro) who really want to play against you and are trying their best is wrong though. Some people go to tournaments knowing they will get their butts whooped but they go expecting to be able to play some of the best smashers in the country, and when that smasher sandbags even in friendlies its like a slap in the face.

 

[CWolf20]

Is it sandbagging if I use characters I'm not good with against players worse than me? I try my hardest to win with those characters, but it's just something I do to make the game more competitive for me. If I play Fox against my roommates, they just quit.

 

[pdk]

1) give wannabes at the prelim your best effort then be too burnt out to offer anything by the semifinals
2) blast right through said wannabes and still be pumped for the later rounds

take your pick

 

[AlphaZealot]

Pros don't sandbag in actual tournament matches. The instances where such an event happens are few an far between, which is curious because so few people seemed to make a note of that in this topic.

As for friendlies...there friendlies, why not mess around with off characters or try things out that may not always work?

 

[Omni]

i can assure you most pros don't sandbag for sandbagging sake
they just get lazy. trying to do your full potential every match can become weary.

 

[Binx]

It might just be me but I almost never sandbag, if I pick a lower tier character I dont consider it sandbagging because I do try my hardest to win still. I dont claim to be pro, or to have ever played a pro, but I have played some people who sandbag me and still win barely(friendlies only) and I just strait up ask them hey man stop sandbagging please and own my face, I want to improve, this is not helping me. Usually they will oblige and 3 stock me and I will play harder and harder until they really HAVE to try to win.

 

[Stryk9]

ill only sandbag agaisnt complete newbs in cases where otherwise they would not be having any fun playing,(ie friends that really dont play smash seriously). Otherwise i think you should always try your best

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Is it sandbagging if I use characters I'm not good with against players worse than me? I try my hardest to win with those characters, but it's just something I do to make the game more competitive for me. If I play Fox against my roommates, they just quit.

I do the same type of thing. Play characters i'm not as good with vs. people that suck, or if it's not a tournament match and I'm bored... Otherwise, I'd just be peeing on them with my mains, and that's not fun for many noobs. Of course, if they want to learn and get better, by all means I'd play a character I'm good with against them..

 

[Artistry]

If you want to talk about sandbagging, take a look at doubles with Isai and Ken. They joke around and mock-ledgeguard each other and Isai knees Ken sometimes. Sometimes it seems like a rivalry, like Ken will knock Isai away so he can get at the opponent, and you can tell it's on purpose, but they still **** the opposing team.

 

[TheManaLord]

Boredom .

 

[Mosk]

I'm no pro but when I'm playing a real novice I can't help but sandbag, probably 'cause they give so many options I take the opportunity to look for all the possibilities and what could work well against someone who's really good. In short I still make it a goal to learn new things even from a scrub, half playing to win & half sparring you know. Besides it takes a lot of excitement to get full focus out of me, can't see why it'd be any different for pro competitors.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Its just natural to sandbang, im no pro either, Im good enough to make the power rankings in eastern canada next tournament though because some people ranked around 12-13th are 2-3 stock material for me...

anyhow back on topic when I play people much worse than me or even a little I cant help but sandbag sometimes. When someones about equal to me or just a little worse with a good chance to win I go all out.... but not ALL out if its friendlies.

In a tournament or vs someone better than me (even in friendlies) I will do WHATEVER I have to to try to win, my motto is ''do what works in a given situation'' if Im spot your tech patterns I just might techchase grab you 4-8 times in a row to 100%

Im no scrub and thank god I dont play with any so theres no complaints of ''cheapness'' or any of that bull**** so generally I can do whatever I like.