What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[TwinkleToes]

Hmmmm. Has anyone ever tried to edge-guard with it? :O
Could be interesting. If you can consistently combo out of it at the right percents then it might be worth it to use it against certain characters.

My main concern though is the massive amount of knockback reduction it gets. It's going to be diminished even more than uair so maybe the in game knockback will end up being less for most of the game.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Bumpety bump to save this going off the front page.
Why isn't this thread stickied?

 

[TwinkleToes]

That's because there's a sticky that links this thread :/
Seriously, you people need to read.

 

[Ceestan]

I have tried edge-guarding with it but because they are both easily cancelled by another attack it really doesnt work that well unless your opponent has used their up b and is weak enough but then still doesnt work well. The only character I can say you can use it reliably on would be pit when he is recovering with his up B.

 

[JayBee]

just a thought: u can use side b to stop your momentum during a Spin shot and basically drop straight down instead of following the arc path, then shield cancel it, or continue in Side B mode. it changes the possbile paths and can help prevent telegraphing in some situations. maybe i should put this in my thread instead...

 

[Greenstreet]

just a thought: u can use side b to stop your momentum during a Spin shot and basically drop straight down instead of following the arc path, then shield cancel it, or continue in Side B mode. it changes the possbile paths and can help prevent telegraphing in some situations. maybe i should put this in my thread instead...

100% right on that 1 mate. You will also find when continueing in your side b, the odds of hitting the opponent will be vastly increased because
1. He was expecting the attack straight after the spin shot
2. Will probably advance at you afterwards (wen u start going down)

Just being careful and unpredictable is important.
That's why most people love Sonic.

 

[Greenstreet]

Had q uick lookover this, but I have Uni to attend. Has the thread mention the whole 'Side B Charge, quickly release then push c stick down?'.
I hope so.
Cya later.

 

[Tenki]

spinshot? not that specific input, but [jump]/[attack] as soon as you release. same thing.

 

[Greenstreet]

spinshot? not that specific input, but [jump]/[attack] as soon as you release. same thing.

Ok, good, I think this is a very easy input, and is all I use. But as long as a technique has been covered.

 

[R4ZE]

After gaining a bit of experience with ASC I'll throw in some more pennies =)

1. I try to use ASC to ledge gaurd alot. Best way to apply it is to do ONE jump (short jump) quickly ASC just past the edge, toward an incoming apponent, and then jump cancel it into a bair hopefully for a stage spike.

be careful not to do 2 jumps tho, because obviously you will air trip.



usually it is a good idea to cancel ASC with sheilds whenever you hti the ground for a few resons:
-landing in any form of spin dash does not refresh your mid-air jump. I guess you have to either do a grounded jump, or land outside of spin dash to refresh your air-jump ... because if you spin dash off the side after landing in a spin dash, it will cause you to air trip every time.

-sheildcanceling also allows you to immidiately start doing anything else and doesent stop ASC form dealing it's hits...

The only reason to not sheild cancel ASC, is... for mindgames.. really.



ASC can also be used as another way to get back on the ledge. If you quickly fall, air-jump and execute ASC then its a great way to get by a lot of ledge gaurds... and a lot of the time.. even if the opponent is waiting a smash, you can sheild cancel immidiately to absorb that and then grab them.


ASC definately loses an enormous amount of priority in higher damages. (when sonic is at about 160%)

So unfortunately.. ASC is one of the best ways to deal damage... and a good killing move, but it loses all of its killing potential when it is used to deal damage a lot.

Personally I find the ebst way to USE ASC itself, is for tech chasing into sheild grabs, or short hopping.. ASC getting both hits, and then jump canceling into a FAIR.

ASC completely ignores Zelda's Din's fire... its quite remarkable for approaching her.

ASC is also a great way to approch olimar.. just cut in on him 45 degrees and he wont have anything to do except sheild or avoid.

ASC ***** bigger characters like DDD and bowser because it can hit 3 times if you hold forward... in fact i honestly think i have even hit 4 times on charizard. (probobly depends on oppenents DI)

ASC can be used in conjuction with many attack such as HA, springs, Aeirals, to put serious hurtings on your oppenents. I think my favorite right now would be: ASC into fair, into bair(c-stick), inro Fsmash (c-stick, possibly charged for timing)



As long as your opponents dont have time to get into your tradjectory and charge a smash, ASC is a reliable way to get back to the stage from far away.. you can alter its course by pressing forward, neutral or backward on the control stick, it has high priority to stop their aerials, and it can be sheild canceled... so it has less delay then dair, HA, and up-b (because you usually rise up higher than the ground) for recovering.


The double ASC thing is probobly only a viable move to use against bigger character that can get hit 3 times be each ASC. because it would be easier to land,, due to their hurt box, and it would deal more damage because it hits 3 times. But sitll i think cnaceling into an aerial would deal more. so w/e.

 

[messiahfreak2000]

i hope this isn't old news but sonic's spin dash may be able to reflect. no joke, uploading the vid.


edit: here is the vid now. got to about 12 seconds and watch from there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYor0Lc6kMc

 

[TwinkleToes]

Well, any attack can reflect the IC's blocks right? :/

 

[messiahfreak2000]

ah can it? i have no idea. darn...

 

[Greenstreet]

ah can it? i have no idea. darn...

Don't worry, at least you are being constructive and trying to help the thread.

 

[R4ZE]

i was reading thru the initial post but i couldnt find somthing about thiis:

when you use Side-B in the air, after it's peak height it becomes the same thing as a SDJ right?

 

[Tenki]

i was reading thru the initial post but i couldnt find somthing about thiis:

when you use Side-B in the air, after it's peak height it becomes the same thing as a SDJ right?

Nope, the hop is a separate thing in and of itself.

Side-B's hit pops people upwards (can be DI'd sideways), while SDJ knocks people sideways (can be DI'd vertically).

If you're talking about the falling animation where there's no hitbox, they're still different- you can't attack straight out of a side-B hop without a double jump, whereas you can after SDJ.

and of course, side-B hop turns into a roll when it hits ground while SDJ sends you to an idle state when you hit the ground.

 

[darkNES386]

R4ZE... that's why I want the naming convention to make sense. You can replace my ROLL with SPIN. I made a fresh post:

Spin Dash / Spin Charge (the different startups that create the spin)
Hop
Spin
Spin Jump... vertical spin jump (other case)
Spin Drop... aerial spin charge (special case)
.... how's that?

but the convention isn't important... the understanding of WHY is what matters. As tenki said, the HOP is very different from an ASC or a ROLL/SPIN Drop.

 

[Tenki]

R4ZE... that's why I want the naming convention to make sense. You can replace my ROLL with SPIN. I made a fresh post:





but the convention isn't important... the understanding of WHY is what matters. As tenki said, the HOP is very different from an ASC or a ROLL/SPIN Drop.

hehehe you replied to the wrong thread.
ehehehe i thought i was replying to the right thread, but i was in the wrong thread.

 

[R4ZE]

i wasn't even talking about the spin dashes hop... i was talking about AFTER the hop.
lol.... yea.. ASC and the freakin hop ARE completely different, ASC rapse and the hop blows... congratulations i already knew that. (anyway tenki thank you for answering my question, that is exactly what i was asking for)

anyway... i think its seriously stupid to call side b Spin dash... because sonic doesent really DASH when u let go of side b.... he hops.... and wouldnt the little hop really be the essense of side b?

 

[Tenki]

The updates! *WITH NEW DISCOVERY/ADDITION!*

Phases
You may have noticed that both moves roll, and both Side-B and Down-B can jump after the roll. Well, this is because the roll is actually the same move! Both the Side B and the Down B undergo 'phase changes', where they change 'moves' depending on where they are and what their previous phase was.

NOTE: "Charging" is a phase that is pretty obvious, but will be omitted here. More information will be found in the Move Properties section.

So here's how it works
Side B: (Aerial or ground)
SD (hop) -> SDR (-> SDJ)
SD (hop) -> jump cancel (while still in air)
SD (charge) -> Spin shot
SD (charge) -> Shield

Down B:
Ground
SDR (-> SDJ)
SDR (-> SDR) (turning around initiates a new SDR with lower power)
SDR (roll off platform) -> ASC
SDR (roll off platform) -> Spin shot

Aerial
ASC (land) -> SDR (->SDJ)
ASC -> jump cancel
ASC (land) -> Shield
ASC (charge) -> Spin shot

Pretty colors!

I also made it match their corresponding color code in the next section.

Aside from colors, I made two important changes in the move properties for SDR, and one seems to be a rather... useful discovery on SDR (I'll "yellow" said changes in this quote).

SDR: (takes in: charge data, 'remaining jumps')
- 7-10 damage, 7 on turn-around.
- If you are moving slow enough (for example, slowed down by a hill), you can shield and cancel the roll!
- During the turn-around, does not deal damage until the blue aura comes back.
- The turn-around is treated like a second SDR that has weaker charge (minimum 7% dmg, without stale moves)
- Charge data is taken in from the side B/ down B to determine speed and damage of the roll
- Gains/loses speed when travelling on slopes (goes faster if going down a hill and slower if going up).
- Combos naturally into a SDJ if [Attack], [Jump], or [Up (for tap jump off) is pressed.
- Passes 'remaining jumps' data to SDJ.
- If you roll off a platform, passes 'remaining jumps' data to the ASC that follows.

So the lesser of the two: I've been working with tap jump off lately and noticed that you can jump if you press [Up] out of an SDR, just as you would with tap jump on. Cool.

And the more important: Shield cancel straight out of roll - if you're moving slow enough (eg, slowed down by a projectile that you defeat, or by going up hill), you can shield and cancel the roll just like you would an ASC! hax!

Air Dash
"Air Dash" is a situational 'glitch' that works on certain levels only. The basic input for it is:

Side-B charge (upwards) on a 45 degree or steeper slope > release

This has a special "phase change" quite unlike the ones previously listed. The ground interrupts the invincibility frames of the hop, and sends you in a SDR while being completely invincible. If the ground ends while completely flat (horizontally) or rising, Sonic will launch horizontally into the air as though he were riding on invisible ground. If he passes a platform (can be above or under him) as he's in the air and makes contact with anything (projectile, person, etc) he will teleport to another height while still rolling.

If you don't have enough momentum to climb the slope and go backwards, you will still be in the invincible state (like for example, the side platforms in Brinstar). On longer hills, you can actually shield cancel the roll if slow down enough, ASC-style (for example, the moving platform in Rainbow Cruise).

If the ground goes downwards (for example, Yoshi's island), you may either: roll off the stage in an invincible ASC, airdash (it tends to happen in custom stages), or stall on the edge while spinning and go flying off the stage in screech stop animation when it runs out of power.

Airdash = invincible "floating" roll done out of side-B
iSDR = invincible roll
iASC = invincible ASC that results from being slope-reversed and falling downwards off a platform (like in Brinstar).

Air dash phase changes:
SD (charge) > iSDR (uphill/horizontal) > Airdash > (double jump)
SD (charge) > iSDR (downhill) > iASC > (double jump)
SD (charge) > iSDR (uphill, slow) > shield
SD (charge) > iSDR (turn around) > SDR > SDJ

It's very situational, but iSDR can be used to plow through things you normally wouldn't, like for example, a grenade/minefield, among other... fun things.

And that's the airdash addition/update.

It's kinda sloppy looking for now, and I'll polish it later. Enjoy.

 

[darkNES386]

Awesome info Tenki... I like the whole "If you are moving slow enough (for example, slowed down by a hill), you can shield and cancel the roll!" Does this work with a F.L.U.D.D?

 

[R4ZE]

is there any way to slow down SDR without turning around?

 

[Tenki]

Priority!!!

hit alot of things?

Oh, Shadowlink gave me an idea about ASC's seemingly unstable priority.

He mentioned something like a 10% range limit on moves to clang with each other. I think stale ASC must then be unable to clang with/outprioritize certain moves/projectiles that it normally could neutralize.

 

[infomon]

Yes, the supposed priority-gap number is 10%, and this has been added to the Physics of Attacks thread. That is, when two hitboxes collide, if the damage they would deal to the foe is within 10%, then they'll clank. Although there are lots of technicalities about what hitboxes will clank etc. etc., that's irrelevant here.

I can only assume that stale moves matters to this priority consideration, but I haven't tested it. Also, the amount of charge in the roll would matter too, right? Does ASC deal variable damage based on charge or velocity?

On a side note.... I can never ever get ASC to do two hits is it difficult for most people or am I just crazy?

 

[Tenki]

I can only assume that stale moves matters to this priority consideration, but I haven't tested it. Also, the amount of charge in the roll would matter too, right? Does ASC deal variable damage based on charge or velocity?

On a side note.... I can never ever get ASC to do two hits is it difficult for most people or am I just crazy?

Charge only affects SDR (-the grounded roll)'s damage and speed.

ASC is purely based on velocity.

Your opponent could either be DI'ing out of it (atm I haven't tested which direction is best to escape ASC), % is too high, you're attacking too low, or you aren't holding forward.

Those are the only reasons I can think of that you're not hitting 2+ times.

Unless you're jumping too early. I had that problem at one point lol.

 

[infomon]

Hmmmm, I guess I was hitting too low. I'm trying things out in training mode, with either the CPU on Stop, or set to Control (so no DI). If I'm to the left of Bowser, say, I find myself now hitting in at his top-left corner, straight through to his bottom right (of where he was, anyway)... Now I get two hits.

But by the second hit, he's popped way up in the air. There's no way my SDR can possibly hit him. What am I doing wrong?

Your help is very appreciated!

 

[Tenki]

oh, I'm just guessing that you're trying to do the perfect combo.

After the initial hype over it and getting those screens, I haven't put any more time into trying to master it.

I'm pretty sure that the perfect combo requires the opponent to SDI/DI downwards, and it's alot quicker/more effective to rack up damage through the simple ASC combo instead.

 

[Tenki]

UPDATE! Time Limit info added!

Okay, so have you ever had this experience where you're doing a mixup/turnaround with the roll, and then you just... run out of energy? Started a grounded SC in the wrong direction, finally turned around and then ran out again? Started an ASC to recover/bring yourself closer to the stage, but right before you jump out of it, you go into "screech stop" animation and fall to your death? Or find yourself rolling back and forth across your opponent, end right behind your opponent after the hit and successfully follow up with an aerial, wondering if you could ever pull it off ever again?

Well, at last, the mystery is solved!

TIME LIMIT: After your initial release of the charge, you will remain in ball form until you jump (SDJ, double jump, etc), or until 2 seconds has passed. Keep this in mind when trying to incorporate spindash into your chase and mixup movements. This "timer" begins counting as soon as you release your charge, regardless of if it's side-B hop, ASC, or just a grounded spin charge- your spin will last for 2 seconds after you release.

Yep!

How can you apply this?

Well first off, the long screech stop slide. It's very annoying. Basically, this happens when your SDR runs out of steam and you're moving very fast. It leaves you sliding uncontrollably for what feels like ... well, too long.

You can avoid it without having to jump.

Basically, if you have the correct timing, you can start a turnaround (press the opposite direction while you're rolling) so that the roll ends when you have little/no movement. This means you spend much less time trying to slow down (since you're already not moving) and you can follow it up with a different move much quicker and more accurately.

Imagine, SDR> (force airdodge) > grab?

 

[infomon]

Wow, good job Tenki!

To reply to your previous post.... What is the "simple ASC combo"? And you're right, I was trying to at least get some of the "perfect combo" to work in training mode, but I still can rarely even get two hits from ASC. :-) just gotta keep messing with it I guess.

On a completely unrelated note, I'm starting to really like SDJ. It's such a great way to travel the stage, with good height and it leaves my 2nd jump available. Today I was surprised to find out that I can transform a charging SD or SC into an up-B! Well that's not quite true... it's that while charging, you slam the control stick to Up and then almost immediately hit B. It's nothing new, it just changes your SD/SJ charging into a VSDJ and then immediately into an up-B. But it feels weird

Also, SDR > SDJ > footstool is fun.

 

[Napilopez]

"Combos naturally into a SDJ if [Attack], [Jump], or [Up (for tap jump off) is pressed."

Interesting. I play with tap jump off, and lately my succes in comboing from an SDR seems to be way too high. Id say at leasst 50% of the time I try, I'll Can hit from SDR to SDJ to Aerial with no probs. I think one of the awesome things about the SDR>SDJ>Aerial is that I don't really see a "good" way to DI out of it. Except perhaaapppps at very low percentages, in which case I usually tend to ASC anyways because ASC is very effective at these low damages. Whichever way you DI out of it, Sonic seems to have an option to follow up with because of its low knocback. If your DI moves you back, then Bair, forwards is Fair or Nair, Upwards uair, and I don't think you can really DI well down against that SDJ.

I dunno, I love SDR. A mnth or two ago I could only sporadically get a fully 20+ damage from it, but now its the norm. I think I have developed some sort of SDR muscle memory. Cool. =P

To infzy:
Its a simple mistake, but one I noticed I made alot. Make sure yu're holding forward all the way through the ASC, until after it hits. I noticed that I would hold forward for a bit after I began the ASC, but usually unwittingly let go of pressing forward before I completed my attack, hitting once instead of twice(or even 3 times sometimes O.o). Holding forward until after you've hit your opponent helps.

One note to elaborate about priority, which I don't think is mentioned in your guide Tenki(been a while since I read it all =P). The SideB's priority seems to decrease in a inverse relationship as it travels its path. Meaning, the more of the the hope completed, the less the priority. It starts with invincibility for a couple frames, then goes down to extremely high priority, then to high, good, ok, bleh, sucky,etc. Thats why timing has to be more precise to go through some moves than others. For example, Fsmash you have a small window to which go thru it using the hop. However, wolfs laser has the highest non invincibile priority possible, because it stuns. You cannot go through it with any attack, unless it has SAF or invincibility frames, which is why you can only go thru it with the hop during the very beginning of it. If you test it, you will notice there is a larger window to go through the fsmash than through wolf's laser.

The following im a bit less sure of, need more testing, but I'm pretty confident in it nevertheless
Also after the Initial Hop of the SideB, when the attack becomes an SDR, priority is reset into standard SDR priority, which is basically very high at the beginning of the SDR, yet quickly decreases as you travel. The same is true for once an ASC touches the ground, which is why I oft find that immediately after hitting the ground from an ASC, the SDR has quite high priority.

 

[Tenki]

I dunno, I love SDR.

The SideB's priority seems to decrease in a inverse relationship as it travels its path. Meaning, the more of the the hope completed, the less the priority. It starts with invincibility for a couple frames, then goes down to extremely high priority, then to high, good, ok, bleh, sucky,etc.

Also after the Initial Hop of the SideB, when the attack becomes an SDR, priority is reset into standard SDR priority, which is basically very high at the beginning of the SDR, yet quickly decreases as you travel. The same is true for once an ASC touches the ground, which is why I oft find that immediately after hitting the ground from an ASC, the SDR has quite high priority.

1) You should see what you can do out of the SDR's "quick stop" by using its timer for your attacks. If you do it out of a grounded spin charge, you'll have 2 seconds of roll time. If you do it out of a side-B, you'll have like 1 second of air time and 1 second of roll time, so if you keep that in mind, I wonder what you can do out of it ;p

2) Well, keep in mind that priority is not an actual value. It has to do with the "attack box" and "hurt box". The reason why side-B has such high 'priority' at the beginning is because there's no hurt box and Sonic is a pure attack box, so opponents can't hit him out of it. I'm not too sure about the rest of the hop. I'm thinking that the hurt/attack box might not necessarily be a true 'circle' around Sonic, so some attacks that hit him higher/lower (depending on where he is in the hop) may either clang with, get defeated by, or beat Sonic out of the hop, so it gives an illusion of his hop having higher/lower priority depending on time even though it's actually based on placement. It's just an idea. `.`;

3) I noticed that too. I've cancelled Lucario's full charged 120%+ Aura Sphere with the beginning frames of SDR out of an ASC, but it's still kinda cloudy, so I won't add it just yet.

 

[JayBee]

Ive actually made it an issue to fight with sonic with that effect in mind, and it can be used reliably to clash, i know you got to be a very good spacer, but you can abuse this well. the problem is, after the clash, both you and your opponent are neutral in terms of advantage, so you got to either get out or jab quickly. thats the part that's cloudy.

 

[Napilopez]

1) You should see what you can do out of the SDR's "quick stop" by using its timer for your attacks. If you do it out of a grounded spin charge, you'll have 2 seconds of roll time. If you do it out of a side-B, you'll have like 1 second of air time and 1 second of roll time, so if you keep that in mind, I wonder what you can do out of it ;p

2) Well, keep in mind that priority is not an actual value. It has to do with the "attack box" and "hurt box". The reason why side-B has such high 'priority' at the beginning is because there's no hurt box and Sonic is a pure attack box, so opponents can't hit him out of it. I'm not too sure about the rest of the hop. I'm thinking that the hurt/attack box might not necessarily be a true 'circle' around Sonic, so some attacks that hit him higher/lower (depending on where he is in the hop) may either clang with, get defeated by, or beat Sonic out of the hop, so it gives an illusion of his hop having higher/lower priority depending on time even though it's actually based on placement. It's just an idea. `.`;

3) I noticed that too. I've cancelled Lucario's full charged 120%+ Aura Sphere with the beginning frames of SDR out of an ASC, but it's still kinda cloudy, so I won't add it just yet.

2) Hmm really? From reading the attack physics thread, I thought that was only true for aerials. I know aerials are completely dependent upon hitbox/hurbox location(except for I think olimar in some cases, cuz of pikmin), which is why they dont clang. Grounded moves however do clang, which means they have an equal priority "value". One the ground, if two attacks have equal range, if one attack has a higher "value" then it will defeat the other. Or at least thats what I thought. If there isnt some sort of a value to represent priority, then how come sometimes an SDR will clang with smashes, while others it will be totally outprioritized, depending on speed/time? As far as I know, the hitbox and hutbox of an SDR are always the same size and in the same location, so I don't know how else its changing abilities to cancel a move can be explained without some sort of priority value. Interesting discussion.

 

[infomon]

The Physics of Attacks thread was recently updated to describe that the "priority value" for grounded attacks is based on the % damage that each hitbox would cause if it connects. If a ground-attack hitbox would cause within 10% damage of an offending hitbox that it overlaps with, it will "clash". (Though there are exceptions....) SDR can cause variable amounts of damage depending on velocity(?), so its "priority" will fluctuate. I think stale moves are also taken into consideration, but I haven't tested that myself.

There are still aspects of Brawl's priority system that noone has figured out, and the damage-based priority I describe above might not be true for all Specials. In fact, I'm currently gathering evidence that Brawl's elemental type system matters for some priority-ish interactions! For example, some aerials can destroy Snake's up-smash mortar, as it's rising and falling, but others cannot. It seems to me that Slash-type attacks are amongst the ones that cannot. I don't know where else in tournament-style Brawl this system might come into effect.

 

[R4ZE]

I am assuming that there is a phase change between the initial hop of Side-b and when it hits the ground and rolls forward, would that explain the increased momentum and glitchiness when side-b hits the ground without going lower than it's peak height?

 

[Tenki]

I am assuming that there is a phase change between the initial hop of Side-b and when it hits the ground and rolls forward, would that explain the increased momentum and glitchiness when side-b hits the ground without going lower than it's peak height?

Well, the phase change is
Hop > SDR
isn't it?

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about with "increased momentum/glitchiness when side-b hits the ground without going lower than its peak height" though.

SDR's initial speed is based on its charge, so of course it should have a different speed than the hop's speed, regardless of where it is during the hop when it makes contact with land.

Oh, btw I tested some stuff to answer your previous question and apparently, hitting stuff DOES make you go slower. If you do a single charge side-B, for example, and during the SDR, hit an opponent, then you can shield cancel it before it fully ends.

On a note that I won't be adding for a while, when your SDR can be shield-cancelled, it changes its animation from an oval (? it's oval when it's moving, right? maybe?) to a circle, so it kinda looks like an ASC but rolling on the ground.

I'm suspecting that this "slow state" is why ASC can be shield cancelled.

 

[R4ZE]

wouldnt make sence... if u hold backward while doing ASC, it doesent allow u to sheild cancel it when u land. ... haha interesting... since ur moving slower.



sucks that u cant sheild cancel side b's hop...

here is a theory, probly not a good 1... but hell a theory:

maybe while holding backward with ASC, ur moving so slow that its not considered a phase change when u land, thus not allowing u to sheild cancel because there is no phase change.

 

[Tenki]

wouldnt make sence... if u hold backward while doing ASC, it doesent allow u to sheild cancel it when u land. ... haha interesting... since ur moving slower.



sucks that u cant sheild cancel side b's hop...

here is a theory, probly not a good 1... but hell a theory:

maybe while holding backward with ASC, ur moving so slow that its not considered a phase change when u land, thus not allowing u to sheild cancel because there is no phase change.

I think when I hold backwards while doing ASC, I end up doing an instant turnaround (?)

However, jumping backwards and still doing ASC without holding backwards is still shieldable.

I think the shield actually comes out AFTER you land, so there must be a frame where he's in "slow roll", where you can input a turnaround or shield, but turnaround takes priority over it. `.`;

 

[R4ZE]

its not inputting the backward then... if u press back after u execute asc it doesent let u sheild cancel it.

 

[Tenki]

its not inputting the backward then... if u press back after u execute asc it doesent let u sheild cancel it.

Well, it works if you let go of the control stick before you land.

For example:
[Tenki releases ASC and holds Shield]
[Tenki holds back on the control stick and it starts to curve backwards]
[before landing, Tenki lets go of control stick]
-->shield.


buuut, if I'm holding [Back] as I land, it starts the SDR turnaround as soon as I land.