What Veterans Should Enter or Cut?? Smash Switch Discussion and Thread

[VexTheHex]

Never understood the basis of cuts from certain fans like Pokemon have to have cuts, because they have had them before logic. Even going into 4, people thought Ike and Lucario HAD TO BE cut cause of Roy and Mewtwo before them.

Past that aspect.



The 3rd Parties are at a high risk. Despite what people seem to act like on here wanting every 3rd party ever created at times, they are guest characters.
Very High Risk
- Not as big of a gaming icon, little content from company in 4
High Risk
and - DLC 3rd parties that had mixed reactions. Bayonetta's more mature franchise, overpowered state, and her questionable status as the winner of the ballot. Ryu for being the 2nd Capcom character and people questioning if the Fighting Game Icon was too obvious and simple for Smash.
Medium Risk
- Huge gaming icons with lots of history. Both should stay, but you never know.
Low Risk
- Pretty sure Sega wants him in as do the fans. A Giant in the past, now struggling to keep up. Smash is good for him.



Fire Emblem had Sakurai state himself he was worried about over representation of the franchise and two were DLC. Not a good sign for the series.
High Risk
- A lackluster clone of Marth, who already had a more popular (in Smash) clone in Roy. Robin also represents her arc.
- A cut clone of Marth in the past, who was brought back due to Smash popularity but loses to Lucina in FE popularity.
- A advertisement DLC addition that outraged many. Their unique move set could save them however compared to the two above.
Low Risk
- Huge in Smash and FE popularity. His story arc has ended, but he still has a huge presence in the fandoms.
- Not as Smash popular as others or FE as popular as others. But they are unique with decent populairty and were higher priority than Lucina, Roy, and Corrin.



Pokemon has always had this cult following of people demanding sacrifices for every installment. It's a huge franchise with very large move set potential characters coming in every shape and size. People seem to think this means cuts have to happen. But Pichu was a joke clone and was a heavy workload that the fan's hated his gimmick with exhaustion. Most people didn't want to main all three pokemon or be forced to change at bad times. Even so Charizard got into the game by himself. Mewtwo was the only shocking and major cut.
Medium Risk
- Loss all her relevance and popularity a long time ago. Her only saving grace is low effort and low priority veteran cause she was cloned off Kirby in 64.
- Never was hugely popular in Smash, but he was huge in Pokemon. He still holds onto some fame and popularity while being our only Middle Generation rep.
- I honestly feel he got into Smash to honor Pokemon Trainer's demise in Smash 4. Sakurai knew people would miss the trio of Pokemon for the Pokemon themselves, so he kept the most iconic of the trio in Smash. His smash popularity isn't the best, but he still holds the iconic status better than Jigglypuff or Lucario. But Gen 1 could or should be the first cut if a cut happens, imo.
- Many people are throwing him on the chopping block to my displeasure. I loss Wolf in 4, don't make me lose my frog in 5. He won the Japanese Popularity poll in 2016. He stayed relevant with Ash Greninja in Sun & Moon. Which the whole Ash Greninja was huge in the anime and was something new that only Greninja has gotten as far as I'm aware. I feel he is a good spot to hold his position over the above Pokemon.
- Yes he was cut before, but he was been a huge fan demand character to return and was the first big reveal for DLC. He likely outsold everyone else that was DLC and got many balance updates under his belt to get him in a good spot. Smash and Pokemon fan base seem to love him more than the other Reps as well. I think he is now main stay.



Others
- He is a toss up for me. I think he simply may get by if the game heavily borrows from 4. If not, he may go as his series is dead and Ness is the mascot in Smash.

Retro will be fine, like they always have been. They aren't popular, but they are unique and seem to get through without issues. I'd be shocked to see any of them go, even though I'm not a fan of ROB or G&W.

is high risk though. I could see them dumping the custom stuff, and the Mii abominations fed off that.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm surprised people think Bayonetta is at risk. In my mind, there's no way she's getting cut. She was announced as the Smash Ballot winner, her game Bayonetta 2 was a Wii U exclusive and is now basically a general Nintendo exclusive being ported to Switch, and Bayonetta 3 will be a Nintendo/Switch exclusive. Platinum games has worked closely with Nintendo recently and with Bayo 3 on the way, it would make such little sense and be such bad timing to drop her as an inclusion in the also upcoming Smash game. Her return would be further promotion for Bayonetta 3 and with most of her games now being Nintendo exclusive she's crossing the line into basically a Nintendo character.

I know she's annoying to fight in Smash, but for any of you who have not picked up any of the Bayonetta games, please do so and you will find that they are amaaaaazing (assuming you're old enough...to play them). I have to assume that Bayonetta haters have not played her games, because I instantly fell in love with them and would hate to see the day that Bayonetta gets cut from Smash Bros. because people are salty at how cheap she is. /ramble

 

[VexTheHex]

I'm surprised people think Bayonetta is at risk. In my mind, there's no way she's getting cut. She was announced as the Smash Ballot winner, her game Bayonetta 2 was a Wii U exclusive and is now basically a general Nintendo exclusive being ported to Switch, and Bayonetta 3 will be a Nintendo/Switch exclusive. Platinum games has worked closely with Nintendo recently and with Bayo 3 on the way, it would make such little sense and be such bad timing to drop her as an inclusion in the also upcoming Smash game. Her return would be further promotion for Bayonetta 3 and with most of her games now being Nintendo exclusive she's crossing the line into basically a Nintendo character.

I know she's annoying to fight in Smash, but for any of you who have not picked up any of the Bayonetta games, please do so and you will find that they are amaaaaazing (assuming you're old enough...to play them). I have to assume that Bayonetta haters have not played her games, because I instantly fell in love with them and would hate to see the day that Bayonetta gets cut from Smash Bros. because people are salty at how cheap she is. /ramble

She's still a 3rd party even if her recent games were Nintendo exclusive. Does it help her? Yes. But she is still a 3rd party guest. I'm still a little loss how she won the ballot. I rarely heard her name pre-4 then suddenly I hear she won the popularity contest and got into Smash. The results were never shared, so I honestly doubt she won. She probably placed in the top 100 and Sakurai was interested in her potential with the teams willing to work together on the license.

3rd parties as main stays feel more proper if they are major gaming icons like Pacman and Megaman with more history and games under their belt than what can be counted on one's fingers. She feels more like a flavor of the month addition like Snake. I do think she is more likely to return than Cloud though.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh the ballot was absolutely rigged to make it seem like she won. There was the little phrasing of after only considering 'realizable characters' so who knows what Sakurai considered not "realizable". Didn't feel like it? lol.

But I would probably put her closer behind Sonic rather than just barely above Cloud. Snake and Nintendo don't seem to mesh well, same with Cloud and Nintendo. Bayonetta says "Nintendo" even more than Ryu or other 3rd parties if only because she's exclusively on Nintendo platforms nowadays. If not for that, I'd say yeah, put her in the same boat as Snake. But because of it, I'm sure she'll stay. At least for now.

 

[Megadoomer]

The realizable characters bit was only for her overall ranking. Bayonetta was still #1 in Europe and in the top 5 (presumably #5) in North America, without any similar qualifiers being added (and even when veterans were taken into account; I could see Ice Climbers and Snake placing higher, though technical and licensing issues would keep them out).

It seems rather late for conspiracy theories about how the ballot was "rigged", anyway - the winner was announced over two years ago. The results not being shown makes sense to me; not only would it clearly give away most of the roster for future Smash games (or, bare minimum, the Switch Smash game), but it would divide the fandom even further than the announcement of the winner did. (every fanbase would be blaming every other fanbase for their character of choice not getting in, especially if that character did reasonably well on the ballot)

As well, it doesn't make sense to cut Bayonetta for being "overpowered" - Meta Knight was even more overpowered in Brawl, and they just tweaked him between games.

As for Cloud "not being a gaming icon", it doesn't make sense to describe the best-known protagonist of one of the best-known (if not the best-known) RPG series in those terms.

 

[VexTheHex]

The realizable characters bit was only for her overall ranking. Bayonetta was still #1 in Europe and in the top 5 (presumably #5) in North America, without any similar qualifiers being added (and even when veterans were taken into account; I could see Ice Climbers and Snake placing higher, though technical and licensing issues would keep them out).

It seems rather late for conspiracy theories about how the ballot was "rigged", anyway - the winner was announced over two years ago. The results not being shown makes sense to me; not only would it clearly give away most of the roster for future Smash games (or, bare minimum, the Switch Smash game), but it would divide the fandom even further than the announcement of the winner did. (every fanbase would be blaming every other fanbase for their character of choice not getting in, especially if that character did reasonably well on the ballot)

As well, it doesn't make sense to cut Bayonetta for being "overpowered" - Meta Knight was even more overpowered in Brawl, and they just tweaked him between games.

As for Cloud "not being a gaming icon", it doesn't make sense to describe the best-known protagonist of one of the best-known (if not the best-known) RPG series in those terms.

Megaman, Pacman, Sonic, Mario, Link, Kirby, etc. all continued on in their games and were always there basically. Cloud didn't start the series or become the always in the game character (as far as I'm aware on that point) like most of these other icons have. He just was edgey enough to make all the boys want to be him and all the girls want to date him... or ship him with the other guys. ;p

Cloud also really has done little for Nintendo itself compared to the others.

 

[SonicMario]

is high risk though. I could see them dumping the custom stuff, and the Mii abominations fed off that.

I don't know if the Miis are really that high at risk. Sure, they're very much tied to Custom Moves. But there's a few reasons why they may keep the Miis anyway.

1. Miis still work on the Switch. While there's not many games that use them as of late (The only notable one is pretty much MK8 Deluxe) and not as mandatory as they used to be, the fact they're still there and usable is to their advantage. And if there's any game that's going to make people make more Miis even with a less intuitive space for them compared to the plazas that the Wii, 3DS, and Wii U had. It's Smash.

2. Nintendo probably made a good amount of cash on all those cheap Mii Costumes from DLC. I feel Nintendo may want to continue that once the DLC period for Smash Switch officially begins.

3. The biggest reason they included Miis was to appease many of the younger viewers (Or the young at heart) who have impossible or very unlikely wishes for Smash as best they can. Characters like real-life celebrities, anime and/or cartoon characters, themselves and their family and friends, etc. Sakurai said himself this was the biggest reason why they included the Mii Fighters. (A bit of a bonus about the Switch's Miis is they have ALOT more hair color options then Miis ever had before. So especially in regards to the Anime/Cartoon characters, people can get more "close enough" stuff on that end.) Why would they go back on that now so soon, and on a system that will no doubt end up reaching more young fan households then the Wii U did?

Even if they do for the most part take out Custom Moves. I could see them making the Miis the only characters with custom moves. Even if that comes in conflict with Palutena.

Not saying the Miis are assured or anything as there are some legit reasons why they may leave them behind if they so wished. If the roster is at all meant to be a big trim down of Smash 4's roster all I could see the Miis going in that case for sure. But if they want to return the all encompassing appeal to almost every kind of Nintendo fan out there that Smash 4's roster had. They absolutely need the Miis in some fashion or another. Even if you're not a fan of the Miis, they gotta use them for something substantial. Otherwise why did they bother bringing them to the Switch at all?

 

[PF9]

Bayonetta is gonna come back. With a new game in her series on the horizon there's no reason not to bring her back.

 

[Koopaul]

While I understand why some people will be sad to see cuts I've come to accept them as an inevitable part of Smash for one reason or another.

But I'm here to say to you all who are upset about your favorite character getting cut... Don't be.

As someone who has been rooting for characters like Ridley for years I've come to feel like having the guy in Smash, even just for one game, would be a blessing. If he was added in Smash 5 and then cut in 6, I'd be okay.

Why? Because it is better to have Smashed and be cut, than to never have Smashed at all.

It is an absolute privilege to be in Smash even once and many characters should count themselves lucky. Fans should be happy that their favorite character got to share the spotlight with the greats. An incredible honor to have. And they will never be forgotten. Even Pichu after all these years will be remembered!

So do not weep for the cut characters. Weep for the characters who never got a chance to begin with.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It seems rather late for conspiracy theories about how the ballot was "rigged", anyway - the winner was announced over two years ago. The results not being shown makes sense to me; not only would it clearly give away most of the roster for future Smash games (or, bare minimum, the Switch Smash game), but it would divide the fandom even further than the announcement of the winner did. (every fanbase would be blaming every other fanbase for their character of choice not getting in, especially if that character did reasonably well on the ballot)

I never believed for a moment the ballot was "rigged" and that Bayonetta wasn't legitimately popular. That being said, the ballot never stated that the absolute number 1 choice overall was going to automatically be chosen, and the phrasing of the Smash ballot seems to suggest that it was more of a suggestion than an absolute poll, so even if, say, Cloud was the ballot choice and he only received like 50 votes, the ballot would still be legitimate and not rigged.

At any rate, the ballot was really more important for this game than Smash 4 and given it took Mewtwo 6 months to be complete, Bayonetta definitely was chosen more than two months before her reveal trailer in December given the ballot closed on October. She was most likely already decided on somewhere around July when Sakurai already saw just how feasible, unique and popular she was.

Anyways, too keep things on topic, unless the roster gets gutted, and are not going anywhere. Those guys are pretty safe otherwise.

 

[Murlough]

While I understand why some people will be sad to see cuts I've come to accept them as an inevitable part of Smash for one reason or another.

But I'm here to say to you all who are upset about your favorite character getting cut... Don't be.

As someone who has been rooting for characters like Ridley for years I've come to feel like having the guy in Smash, even just for one game, would be a blessing. If he was added in Smash 5 and then cut in 6, I'd be okay.

Why? Because it is better to have Smashed and be cut, than to never have Smashed at all.

It is an absolute privilege to be in Smash even once and many characters should count themselves lucky. Fans should be happy that their favorite character got to share the spotlight with the greats. An incredible honor to have. And they will never be forgotten. Even Pichu after all these years will be remembered!

So do not weep for the cut characters. Weep for the characters who never got a chance to begin with.

Just saying, but there are people who have mained each of these characters for years. Asking for noone to be upset when the character they've attached themselves to for years gets removed is pretty unrealistic. Once the final roster is revealed there are 100% going to be plenty of complaing both for who was dropped and for who is/isn't a Smash character now. It's just a part of it.

Anyway, I think 3rd parties are the only ones really in danger. Sonic is probably fine but otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if any one of them were removed.

Maybe a Pokemon or two is removed. Probably Jigglypuff since Sakurai has made it apparent that he doesn't want her to be relevent. Maaaybe Greninja as the other, maybe Lucario. Mewtwo is probably staying this time around.

If any Mario character goes its Boswer Jr. He's more work due to the many models and personally he's the one I would pick as opposed to all the other icons he has competeing with him.

Wii Fit, as much as I enjoy her inclusion, is kinda hanging by a thread.

If a Fire Emblem character goes it'll probably be Robin or Lucina. Corrin is the reincarnation of Robin so it makes some sense to just keep him/her. I'm just sick of seeing people discuss Lucina in general, I couldn't even guess what Sakurai has seen when it comes to feedback.

I hate the idea of "oh this series is overrepresented," personally but if even Sakurai is kinda admitting it then things don't look great for the series who have a lot of slots in 4.

 

[Koopaul]

Just saying, but there are people who have mained each of these characters for years. Asking for noone to be upset when the character they've attached themselves to for years gets removed is pretty unrealistic.

Oh I know. I'm just telling people to consider the fact that they were lucky to experience that character at all (compared to characters that never get in at all) and that they can still play the old game with the character they love.

 

[JackD2204]

I would love to see squirtle and ivysaur return, except this time can ivysaur not say saur saur saur every five seconds please?

 

[Bootortle]

I'd love if everyone could return




except
can sit in the corner and think about what she's done

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd love if everyone could return




except
can sit in the corner and think about what she's done

Am fine with Rosalina, it's the Luma who can leave... or be decreased to have about ~25 HP max for the most fat and sturdy ones.

 

[Murlough]

Am fine with Rosalina, it's the Luma who can leave... or be decreased to have about ~25 HP max for the most fat and sturdy ones.

Dabuz actually made a video on a Rosa rework that makes her way more tolerable and she further lives up to her "puppet master" archetype.

I want her to stay and hopefully, although I'm doubtful, they actually end up doing what he suggested or something along the lines of it.

Basically, make Luma weaker, Rosa stronger and make it to where detached Luma is actually superior to simply holding Luma next to Rosa all game long. Makes good Rosa play require more risk for reward.

 

[kool2419]

For the clones i think ,, & are going to be alternates but i have a feeling that they`ll still warrant their own slots.

For 3rd parties they`re 100% risk of getting axed just due to their status and are not locks. and are the most likely being cut due to them being like a one time thing like. and are two gaming icons with a lot of history and they`ll probably stay but you never know. is most likely returning due to her being a adopted Nintendo character at this point. probably staying as well but then again you never know since he`s still a 3rd party guest and even though he appeared in 2 games is still not a lock.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

Veterans that NEED to Be Cut out:

A. Toon Link(Wind Waker's OVER and No Longer Relevant; And Is Too Identical To the Main Link; To Switch things up; Replace Toon Link with his Predecessor, Young Link; and Give him his Fierce Diety Transformation as his Final Smash)
B. Bayonetta(Not only is she a Demonic Witch I DESPISE MORE THAN ANY OTHER Nintendo Character; But she's WAY TOO SUPER-OP; Even moreso than Meta Knight in SSBB)
C. Marth(He's no Longer Relevent; Lucina is even more Relevant now, due to her being more recent)
D. Dark Pit

 

[Deleted member]

Veterans that NEED to Be Cut out:

A. Toon Link(Wind Waker's OVER and No Longer Relevant; And Is Too Identical To the Main Link; To Switch things up; Replace Toon Link with his Predecessor, Young Link; and Give him his Fierce Diety Transformation as his Final Smash)
B. Bayonetta(Not only is she a Demonic Witch I DESPISE MORE THAN ANY OTHER Nintendo Character; But she's WAY TOO SUPER-OP; Even moreso than Meta Knight in SSBB)
C. Marth(He's no Longer Relevent; Lucina is even more Relevant now, due to her being more recent)
D. Dark Pit

A. While I would LOVE Young Link to return with Fierce Deity as his Final Smash, Toon Link has technically appeared in (let me go count) 7 mainline Zelda games, 3 of which are in the same continuity as Wind Waker. So he's pretty relevant...
B. I say, embrace the witch. I've played the first Bayonetta and it was a blast; can't wait to play the sequels. It's kind of a cool story that Nintendo basically saved the franchise and she seems to be at home on Nintendo systems now. She ain't going anywhere.
C. I....actually kinda agree with you, but I doubt they'll ever cut Marth.
D. How DARE you! I LOVE Dark Pit and he's one of my mains. Not Pit, just Dark Pit. I prefer his voice and side special. And he's edgy, I like that too.

 

[Megadoomer]

B. Bayonetta(Not only is she a Demonic Witch I DESPISE MORE THAN ANY OTHER Nintendo Character; But she's WAY TOO SUPER-OP; Even moreso than Meta Knight in SSBB)

A character being overpowered is no reason to cut them. It didn't get Meta Knight removed in between Brawl and Smash 4, and that reason isn't going to happen here.

 

[Jubileus57]

B. Bayonetta(Not only is she a Demonic Witch I DESPISE MORE THAN ANY OTHER Nintendo Character; But she's WAY TOO SUPER-OP; Even moreso than Meta Knight in SSBB)

Someone here is very salty.
Should you get to know the character you'll see that she is a very caring individual towards the good people and that reducing her to "ITS A DEMONIC SASSY WITCH EEEEEEEEEEEW" is a very, very, VERY near-sighted view on her.
And maybe she is a little too strong but nothing a good nerf cant fix.
So in the end she doesnt NEED to be cut period, you THINK she needs it be cut which is an entirely different thing. Which (witch?) she most fortunately wont. Every day I pray the Master0fHyrule leak is real for that very specific reason.

As for my personal opinion I am not sure anyone should get cut. The ones that would hurt the least amount of people got to be the clones I'd wager.

Also nerf Cloud. He is the only character with Diddy that is thoroughly unenjoyable to play against.

 

[SonicMario]

Veterans that NEED to Be Cut out:

I gotta stop you right there, there is no one that necessarily NEEDS to be cut out like their presence harms the core of the game (Maybe competitively in some cases, but I mean in the general sense). Even as someone that would vastly have preferred Dark Pit and Dr. Mario (I guess Lucina too, but her popularity from Awakening I think at least holds some weight) stayed as Alts ala Alph and the Koopalings. However, that's just 2 characters out of a nearly 60 character roster that I'm almost all perfectly ok with otherwise.

With how polarizing the newcomer pool was for Smash 4. It's probably a good thing that there was only one newcomer I truly didn't like (That was again, Dark Pit). But even then, given he was was just pretty much an extra character at the end of the day. If Smash Switch happens to have no cuts, I will be able to tolerate Dark Pit's return. I just don't plan on playing him anymore then I need to once I've cleared Classic, All-Star or whatever other modes that unlock something that needs me to play as Dark Pit or Dr. Mario in order to get it.

 

[Deleted member]

I gotta stop you right there, there is no one that necessarily NEEDS to be cut out like their presence harms the core of the game (Maybe competitively in some cases, but I mean in the general sense). Even as someone that would vastly have preferred Dark Pit and Dr. Mario (I guess Lucina too, but her popularity from Awakening I think at least holds some weight) stayed as Alts ala Alph and the Koopalings. However, that's just 2 characters out of a nearly 60 character roster that I'm almost all perfectly ok with otherwise.

With how polarizing the newcomer pool was for Smash 4. It's probably a good thing that there was only one newcomer I truly didn't like (That was again, Dark Pit). But even then, given he was was just pretty much an extra character at the end of the day. If Smash Switch happens to have no cuts, I will be able to tolerate Dark Pit's return. I just don't plan on playing him anymore then I need to once I've cleared Classic, All-Star or whatever other modes that unlock something that needs me to play as Dark Pit or Dr. Mario in order to get it.

But...Dark Pit is not really a newcomer. People look at it all wrong. That's like saying Alph is a newcomer. Dark Pit was simply given his own icon on the CSS because he has his own final smash, victory theme, and a couple moves were altered. He's a glorified alt costume, not a newcomer. There's a big difference. Sakurai tried to explain this when he referrred to Dark Pit, Lucina and Dr. Mario as dessert characters.

 

[SonicMario]

But...Dark Pit is not really a newcomer. People look at it all wrong. That's like saying Alph is a newcomer. Dark Pit was simply given his own icon on the CSS because he has his own final smash, victory theme, and a couple moves were altered. He's a glorified alt costume, not a newcomer. There's a big difference. Sakurai tried to explain this when he referrred to Dark Pit, Lucina and Dr. Mario as dessert characters.

I understand that. That's why I mentioned the whole extra character thing. Just based on the basic definition of a newcomer (Someone that wasn't playable in a previous game that is in the newest game) he counts. But I completely understand he's kinda on a level below all the others since it's not like he got his own seperate newcomer trailer. Maybe technically the tail end of Palutena's trailer was that. But it didn't quite say whether he was or wasn't his own character. Could of still applied just as well even if he was just a Pit alt.

I would of preferred Dark Pit had stayed an alt, but I get why he was made his own character for the same reasons many of Melee's clones were added: Make the roster appear slightly bigger then it actually was in terms of unique movesets. I understand that completely. However, I still feel like I can at least hold my opinion on the inclusion.

I will however at least defend him in the case that like with the user I responded to saying that he "Needs" to be cut as if cutting Dark Pit will improve the game. I'm just saying sure, I'd prefer that on a purely personal level. But whether Dark Pit stays or goes it's not going to change much especially if much of the roster was ported on over. Even when talking about stuff like balancing the entire roster. You only need to balance characters with Pit pretty much since Dark Pit pretty much plays exactly the same. Unless they plan on Luigifying him at least a little for Smash Switch. Then that might at least make Dark Pit more tolerable and be better for his fans since he actually provides something similar to but different enough from Pit to matter.

All I'm saying is. I may not like Dark Pit, but I'm not calling for him to be cut either and I completely understand the factors in why he would stay and in fact I think he will more likely stay because of it. Is that at least a little fair to say?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

But...Dark Pit is not really a newcomer. People look at it all wrong. That's like saying Alph is a newcomer. Dark Pit was simply given his own icon on the CSS because he has his own final smash, victory theme, and a couple moves were altered. He's a glorified alt costume, not a newcomer. There's a big difference. Sakurai tried to explain this when he referrred to Dark Pit, Lucina and Dr. Mario as dessert characters.

Not that I want to get involved in a huge debate here, but I can definitely see a difference in whether or not they share a slot. Those alt costumes that did do count internally as 'characters' in that any challenges or unlockables that require "do XYZ with all characters" will need you to do it. For example, if you wanted to unlock the Saki Amamiya trophy, you had to clear All-Star with all characters, which meant yes you had to play Pittoo, but not Alph.

I never really liked the clones in the first place because I don't see them as free bonuses because of that fact. Look at the challenges for Sm4sh - all three clones have an unhammerable challenge, and two of those are in the top row. It really sucks if you're not good with one of the parent characters. Best example here was Marth and Lucy - if you wanted to unlock everything, you had to be good enough with that moveset to beat classic on level 9 AND get 8 KOs in Cruel Smash (not hammerable). If you don't like that moveset, you're stuck. And for me personally, I'm terrible with Mario, Pit and Marth, so having to do those three twise was most unwelcome.

I also was annoyed that Pittoo got his own victory theme when there were barely any other new themes made for the game - only Bowser got a new one, leaving Ganondorf as the only villain to shaer his hero's theme. Or how he got his own crowd chant while Link and Toon Link got to share one for the first time ever. Or hot Pittoo stole a final smash from Zelda. Honestly, I was biased against Kid Icarus in Brawl since it looked like Pit was trying to steal Link's thunder, and this game really played into that view.

 

[SonicMario]

I don't normally 100% games myself anyway (I just prefer seeing having all the Single player trophies and/or beating Classic and/or All Star with every character at least once as my completion. Besides of course unlocking all the stages and such. Many challenges in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 are all way too difficult for me. I was lucky to beat 9.0 Master Core on the 3DS version with a souped up Donkey Kong. How in the hell am I supposed to do that TEN TIMES with different characters on the Wii U version?!). So that's not an issue I have but is certainly a good point. It would be extra maddening I imagine for someone who is very much into 100%ing their game but cannot grasp how to play certain characters well enough to beat the challenges and it being locked to a character that's a clone of said character. You can put the hours into getting good with them, but I imagine if it's a character you never liked personally on top of that. That's not something you're going to be fond of doing.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

A. While I would LOVE Young Link to return with Fierce Deity as his Final Smash, Toon Link has technically appeared in (let me go count) 7 mainline Zelda games, 3 of which are in the same continuity as Wind Waker. So he's pretty relevant...
B. I say, embrace the witch. I've played the first Bayonetta and it was a blast; can't wait to play the sequels. It's kind of a cool story that Nintendo basically saved the franchise and she seems to be at home on Nintendo systems now. She ain't going anywhere.
C. I....actually kinda agree with you, but I doubt they'll ever cut Marth.
D. How DARE you! I LOVE Dark Pit and he's one of my mains. Not Pit, just Dark Pit. I prefer his voice and side special. And he's edgy, I like that too.

A. I Don't Care; He's too much of a Clone of Link's Original Moveset(will be changed in Smash Switch; due to being changed to his BOTW Incarnation); and Young Link has the potential for a DIFFERENT Final Smash, AND NOT JUST THE SAME OLD (BLEEP)ING LAZY & PREDICTABLE TRIFORCE SLASH; also is WAY too Over-hyped; and I'm honestly SICK of Toon Link
B. I WON'T Embrace the DEMONIC Witch; I Hate Demons, and I Hate Witchcraft; And She's TOO OP; And I Never wanted her in the first place, and I Still don't, I was against her inclusion during the final DLC Reveal; and My opinion of her still remains the same; completely against her
C. If Only they Would
D. even so, MEWTWO, Dark Pit is A Clone character, and not a good one either, as he serves NO other purpose than just filling up the roster; and He's not likely to return since He was ONLY in Uprising, and as such, is no longer as relevant as he was in 2014, so the likelihood of him returning is significantly reduced;

 

[Zinith]

Bayonetta should go, and this is coming from somebody who adores her games and really doesn't mind her being in Smash. It's just that out of all the 3rd parties, she fits in the least...

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Bayonetta should go, and this is coming from somebody who adores her games and really doesn't mind her being in Smash. It's just that out of all the 3rd parties, she fits in the least...

But she's here because she won the ballot...it'd be a massive "**** you" to all the people who voted her in

 

[SonicMario]

Veterans that NEED to Be Cut out:

A. Toon Link(Wind Waker's OVER and No Longer Relevant; And Is Too Identical To the Main Link; To Switch things up; Replace Toon Link with his Predecessor, Young Link; and Give him his Fierce Diety Transformation as his Final Smash)
B. Bayonetta(Not only is she a Demonic Witch I DESPISE MORE THAN ANY OTHER Nintendo Character; But she's WAY TOO SUPER-OP; Even moreso than Meta Knight in SSBB)
C. Marth(He's no Longer Relevent; Lucina is even more Relevant now, due to her being more recent)
D. Dark Pit

A. I Don't Care; He's too much of a Clone of Link's Original Moveset(will be changed in Smash Switch; due to being changed to his BOTW Incarnation); and Young Link has the potential for a DIFFERENT Final Smash, AND NOT JUST THE SAME OLD (BLEEP)ING LAZY & PREDICTABLE TRIFORCE SLASH; also is WAY too Over-hyped; and I'm honestly SICK of Toon Link
B. I WON'T Embrace the DEMONIC Witch; I Hate Demons, and I Hate Witchcraft; And She's TOO OP; And I Never wanted her in the first place, and I Still don't, I was against her inclusion during the final DLC Reveal; and My opinion of her still remains the same; completely against her
C. If Only they Would
D. even so, MEWTWO, Dark Pit is A Clone character, and not a good one either, as he serves NO other purpose than just filling up the roster; and He's not likely to return since He was ONLY in Uprising, and as such, is no longer as relevant as he was in 2014, so the likelihood of him returning is significantly reduced;

First of all, I want to say you're opening up yourself to some pretty harsh criticism with your posts here. I'll say why after I respond to each of the four characters you want cut.

A. Toon Link - Sakurai has gone on record that he likes having a kid link of some kind along with the adult one. Since there are many games where Link is just a child for the entire adventure. If anything if he had to choose between the two of them he'd probably pick the younger Link just because he seems to prefer a child Link. But it's not like he's going to cut adult Link. It will take a new director's direction for this to change at all. And a new director might change alot more then just that if they differ that much from Sakurai's vision. Though you seem to want Young Link back over Toon Link anyway. But Wind Waker is not the only game that Link is in that style. There's also some GBA and/or DS games and games like four sword adventures that at least use the Wind Waker style for artwork. Meanwhile the Young Link in Melee was only in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. You want to talk about which Link's time is "over"?

B. Bayonetta - That's fine to hold a strong opinion about her. But given Nintendo's support for her series (Bayonetta 2 was Wii U exclusive until the Switch port, Bayonetta 3 will even be Switch exclusive) and her being announced the ballot winner. She's not going away anytime soon. Like it or not, Bayonetta's a likely returnee.

C. Marth - He was Fire Emblem's first protagonist. Sure, he's not playable in every single game but he's the closest to being the face of the franchise. There was a remake for his game, plus he's DLC in many recent Fire Emblem games, and Fire Emblem Warriors (The box of which he is right in the center) of course.

D. Dark Pit - Already talked about this. But if you want to say 2014 is the cutoff date for characters that aren't relevent. You may want to retract that if you like any of these characters alot:

Anyway, your most wanted returning character seems to be the Mii Fighters correct? Though first a quick disclaimer, I want the Mii Fighters back too. I do really think they're additions that need to return if only for the sake for the younger fans of Smash to have their "close enough" to characters that are otherwise impossible or even envision themselves in Smash.

That said if you want to stick to your rather weak reasons why you want the four characters you mentioned gone. You must understand that the Miis arguably do have a reason they could be removed (As much as you and I would not like it). And that's in regards to the fate of Custom Moves from the transition to Smash 4 to Smash Switch. If Custom Moves are removed, there's a possibilty they remove the Miis altogether if they feel like they're too tied to the Custom Moves to return them. And the Miis aren't as front and center on the Switch as they were on the Wii and Wii U.

I want to stress that I don't necessarily agree with these points and think there are arguments against that. Like I think it's very possible they make the Mii Fighters the ONLY characters with custom moves if indeed they scrap it from most of the roster. If Custom Moves return in anyway though, Miis are practically assured. And regarding not being as front and center as they used to be I think the fact they're still there at all and still capable of being imported into games should indicate they're still possible to begin with otherwise Nintendo could of just dropped the Miis altogether.

But most of the points you made about the 4 characters you made are weaker then the common reasons why some might feel the Miis could be left out. I'd be incredibly disappointed if they did leave them out because of it, but they're valid nonetheless if Sakurai feels they don't want to return any aspect of Custom Moves no matter what they are. That's certainly a stronger reason to remove them then the reasons you've stated for the characters you don't want: not being relevant enough, a character you have purely personal reasons for disliking and/or a character being overpowered, and a lazy clone.

Again, I do think the Mii Fighters should return. And I don't like Dark Pit myself either as an inclusion. So on some level we agree. But you're leaving yourself wide open to some pretty heavy rebuttals from fans of not just for the characters you want cut but those who don't want the characters that you want back. So even if there's something we agree on, the points you made make me at least briefly want to explain the devil's advocate with the opposing opinion to what you want.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

But she's here because she won the ballot...it'd be a massive "**** you" to all the people who voted her in

GOOD; Because I never wanted that Overpowered Demonic Witch in ANYWAYS; IT SHOULD'VE BEEN DECIDUEYE, OR SHOVEL KNIGHT, OR ANYONE THAT'S NOT HER!!!

Bayonetta should go, and this is coming from somebody who adores her games and really doesn't mind her being in Smash. It's just that out of all the 3rd parties, she fits in the least...

I agree; she's even MORE way too Super-OP than Brawl's Meta Knight!! She's too M-Rated; She's A Demonic Witch; I Despise her inclusion; If literally, ANYONE that's not her would've won; I would've been not quite as upset!!

 

[Jubileus57]

I agree; she's even MORE way too Super-OP than Brawl's Meta Knight!! She's too M-Rated; She's A Demonic Witch; I Despise her inclusion; If literally, ANYONE that's not her would've won; I would've been not quite as upset!!

Well that's too bad she will more likely return.

And boy am I glad for that I love myself some demonic witchcraft, it keeps things interesting

In all seriousness you should chill out a little she is just a video game character. And like it or not she is a much more reasonable choice than many other choices. Demonic or not. Besides she doesn't steal a spot to anyone else she won it fair and square, as enough people voted for her to win the Ballot. You not liking it don't mean no one does.

Oh and be wary of double posts, mods seem to dislike them for some reason.

 

[Megadoomer]

GOOD; Because I never wanted that Overpowered Demonic Witch in ANYWAYS; IT SHOULD'VE BEEN DECIDUEYE, OR SHOVEL KNIGHT, OR ANYONE THAT'S NOT HER!!!


I agree; she's even MORE way too Super-OP than Brawl's Meta Knight!! She's too M-Rated; She's A Demonic Witch; I Despise her inclusion; If literally, ANYONE that's not her would've won; I would've been not quite as upset!!

Shovel Knight wasn't released in Japan (at the very least) at the time of the Smash Ballot, and an overwhelming majority of its fanbase exists in North America. As a result, Shovel Knight may have been popular in North America, but not as much in other regions of the world.

Meanwhile, Decidueye's one Pokemon out of 800+ - when it comes to a Pokemon newcomer, that vote would have been split at least several dozen different ways.

Characters can't be "too M-rated" for Smash (the very first third party that we got came from a primarily M-rated series), seeing as they can (and have) been toned down. (the only exceptions I can think of are stuff that would get the game outright banned in other countries) Her using demons or being a witch is irrelevant - you might as well that Palutena should be removed for being a fictional goddess, or that all Pokemon should be removed because some people thought they promoted Satanism. Characters can be toned down between installments, and Bayonetta is nowhere near as bad as Brawl Meta Knight, who could use all four of his specials to recover, and most of his attacks are fast, powerful, and have priority over everyone else's attacks.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Decidueye didn't even exist by the time the DLC dropped, let alone when the ballot happened.

 

[Megadoomer]

Decidueye didn't even exist by the time the DLC dropped, let alone when the ballot happened.

Forgot about that - for whatever reason, I thought Decidueye debuted in X and Y. (I am really behind when it comes to Pokemon)

 

[Deleted member]

I'm still disappointed in all the Dark Pit hate. It probably took a few days' extra work to promote him from alt costume to separate character and yet all people do is complain complain complain. Again...Dark Pit was ENVISIONED to be an ALT just like the gender alts, Lucina, Dr. Mario, Alph, and the Koopalings. Alph and the Koopalings remained alts (along with the genders of course), but 3 of the alts, for relatively understandable but different reasons, were separated because Sakurai deemed it odd if they were alts in the end. And each of those 3 alts were given different things to differentiate themselves; but in the end they're upgraded alts, and that's a good thing. Stop thinking about who's taking up what slots on the CSS and just look at different play styles and different characters. How it's all arranged on the CSS doesn't matter.

 

[Megadoomer]

The problem is that Dark Pit doesn't really have a different playstyle from Pit, unlike Lucina, Dr. Mario, Young Link, or even Pichu. All but four attacks (five if you include his final smash) are identical to Pit's, and many of those four attacks are outright worse than what Pit has or have differences that are so marginal that they are difficult to notice.

If he returned, that could be an opportunity to change up his moves and make him more worthwhile as a separate character, but as he currently is, he doesn't really add much.

 

[osby]

On the other hand he would add even less if he was just an alt of Pit.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

The problem is that Dark Pit doesn't really have a different playstyle from Pit, unlike Lucina, Dr. Mario, Young Link, or even Pichu. All but four attacks (five if you include his final smash) are identical to Pit's, and many of those four attacks are outright worse than what Pit has or have differences that are so marginal that they are difficult to notice.

If he returned, that could be an opportunity to change up his moves and make him more worthwhile as a separate character, but as he currently is, he doesn't really add much.

I wouldn’t say those different moves Pittoo has are that better/worse than what Pit has (slight hinders and a side b that doesn’t really do much for him overall yeah, but better/worse nah). Also, I think there’s only three differences between the angles.

 

[Megadoomer]

I wouldn’t say those different moves Pittoo has are that better/worse than what Pit has (slight hinders and a side b that doesn’t really do much for him overall yeah, but better/worse nah). Also, I think there’s only three differences between the angles.

I'm just going by the Smash Wiki on this one. One move has a smaller hitbox (meaning it's less likely to hit), one move has significantly less knockback (making it harder to KO with), the arrows are harder to control than Pit's, and the Electroshock Arm does slightly more damage and knockback. (then there's his final smash, which is completely different from Pit's but is basically a copy-paste of Zelda's)