What sonics should be focusing on

[da K.I.D.]

Through my perusing of the sonic boards, ive realised that ppl even now are stating through their comments that they believe that sonic has limited killing options. Through the ingenuity and togetherness of this board, we have collectively overcome this shortcoming with our homing gimps, springed u-airs, and stuttered f-smashes.

Now even though these options arent the best killing moves in this game by far, they get the job done, so we really dont need to say that any more.

Also, we realised VERY early in this game, that sonic's priority is complete and utter GARBAGE. this is also something that we as a collective have dealt with pretty well, with the use of sonic's spped and our own unpredictablity, most ppl can weave in and out, dodge attacks, and punish lag so we dont have to lose those nasty attack clashing situations.

But now i'd like to address the real underlying issue that i dont think many ppl have noticed yet. The unavoidable, uncounterable problem that i believe to be the real reason that i believe sonic will never be a REALLY good character.

Damage. Damage, damage, damage!! With the exception of Fox's upsmash and up-air from melee, (and im still not even sure that that applies in this case) i have never seen a move in a super smash brothers game, and said to myself, "that move doesnt do the right amount of damage" i say fox from melee because there were times where i thought that both those moves did too much damage, where in actuality it just may be that they had too much knockback, and a reasonable amount of damage.

I have never been conclusive about the thought of the damage attached to a move not being correct until playing sonic. And the part that makes this situation even worse is that, unlike fox in melee, this problem permeates through Sonic's Entire Moveset!! i dont have the game to check right now, but im pretty sure, that if you took every one of sonic moves and made it 20% stronger, he would be much more balanced with all the other characters. How painful is it to spot dodge an auto cancancelled airial than DD away from the follow up attack, run back up into an up-smash and than realise you did all that work for 15%. Its Bullcrap!!

Everyone of his atacks should be 20% stroger. u-smash, 15%.... 18 would feel right. homing attk and jab combo, does what? 8%? should be 9 or 10, even the dash attack and spring are too weak 4 damage? comon, are you kidding? could easily be 5 or 6. now i realise that its not perfect but applying the 20% rule to all his attacks, would easily make him a much more balenced characcter.

The worst part about this situation, is that aside from being just flat out better than your opponent, there is basically nothing that can be done about this. sonic has no killing moves? fine. ill just gimp you as you try to come back. sonic has no priority? well than, ill just punish and hit you while your recovering from your own attacks (remember, your fist ALWAYS has priority over the other guys face) but what about this? none of his his attacks do the damage that they are supposed to do. well... i'll just... uh... ill just.... ... fail. this is the main reason why in order to be good with sonic you will always have to either be a considerable amount better at the game than your opponent, or fighting Ike. cause that guys just a big sword wielding pincushion.

 

[FrostByte]

I always though the problem was knockback and speed of his KO moves. Fsmash is pretty slow, Bair is pretty slow, Dsmash is pretty slow. On top of that, Ganon charges a warlock punch at you when he's at 90%. No matter how much you want to punish it, you'll never get that KO. It's just another hit IMO.

 

[Tenki]

=|

I understand what you mean about his u-smash, but keep in mind that Sonic plays differently from other characters. His u-smash is a setup/disturbance move, if anything, since around 100%, you start losing people because you knock them out of the combo. Actually, the majority of his attacks can set up for another one.

Sonic does have good kill options and setups though. In the Finishing Moves thread, the first option kills middleweights somewhere between 40-80%. It's the F-air F-air juggle off-level, and it takes them off to the point that they actually get pushed into the side instead of being gimped to a falling death.

For damage, I find that using Spin dash to start off combos is a nice way to rack up damage, or mix up my moves via Spindash cancel. Full charge SD for about 10%, then jump immediately for another 6-10% (not sure) and follow up immediately with another aerial attack (~11% if you hit them immediately with n-air). It doesn't even have to be done far away from the enemy, just out of range of their immediate attack and close enough to punish it when you let go.

I'm used to slower moves since I play Ike and Ganondorf pretty often, and so if the complaint is about speed, it just takes a bit of getting used to. That aside, you should also know when you can punish with a KO- like...

To put things in perspective, from the center of Final Destination without charge or stale-move effect:

Fsmash kills at 110%
Dsmash kills at 120%
Usmash starts to lose targets at around 95%
U-tilt kills at 160-170%
B-air kills at 120%

That is, against Marth, who's basically a middleweight. You can add about 10% to each for people like Ganondorf/Snake, 20% more for Bowser/Dedede/Ike- make adjustments based on weight or placement.

Sonic seems to have the most kill options and setups at around 120%- U-throw sets up for aerial finishes with spring, and basically everything can kill at that point.
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anyway, @ topic title, what should Sonic be focusing on? It seems to me that you're just complaining about his damage =/ If he's not good at damaging people, then bring them off level. His game is pretty strong off-stage, and his earliest kill option involves bringing people off-level. Are Sonic players supposed to be focusing on how little his individual attacks' hit? I'd rather be focusing on my opponent's placement and the quickest options to kill them.

 

[Browny]

i think sonics should be focusing on placement of the fsmash. a while ago i did a local sonic v sonic ditto versus a very good player, all his KO's against me were with an fsmash while my 2 KO's were from 2 dsmashes. i had to get him a good 20-30% higher for every single stock and he won with about 60% damage, which is pretty much exactly the differences in our playstyles.

its hard to pull off, but against slower guys like snake, dedede and ike you can simply avoid them for as long as you want until you get a good set up for an fsmash. it generally wont take long for an opening to attack and thats what takes all the skill, being able to punish for attacks as fast as humanly possible. it is possible to fsmash through things like pikachus thunder but you need absolutely perfect spacing and timing.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

IMO Since Sonic just doesn't have the killing power he needs,you have to stretch out your matches and avoid taking damage as much as possible. Like if you have the option of hitting with a high chance of getting hit back,or dodgeing and avoiding damage then dodgeing would be the better option. I mostly fight lvl9 Metanights and other faster "tougher for Sonic" oponents. And knowing When to strike is key. I get alot of my kills pursueing my oponent up into the ceiling boundery and the f airs to the side boundry.

Im best with Sonic in the air.

 

[thecatinthehat]

I always though the problem was knockback and speed of his KO moves. Fsmash is pretty slow, Bair is pretty slow, Dsmash is pretty slow. On top of that, Ganon charges a warlock punch at you when he's at 90%. No matter how much you want to punish it, you'll never get that KO. It's just another hit IMO.

Knockback and speed of attacks are decent, but DAkid got this right on the money.
His attack's are just too weak.
Normally, speedy attacks would compensate for this, but this isn't the case with Sonic.
I find pulling huge combo's, and damage given is only about 25%, where another character in the same place would probably inflict around 50%

Sorry for the bad spelling/grammar, typing on an iphone.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thanks for the input. at the #3 poster, when i say what sonics should be focusing on, i meant when they talk about him on the boards. but when they are actually fighting, the main tactics should be either: 1. hit and run tactics and staying out of the opponents range until you can attack with out fear of retaliation. or 2. defensive pressure which is basically staying on top of the opponent and not letting them get set into the rythim that they play at, but still dodging and being defensive so that you cant get hit back.

also i am mostly ranting about something that i cant do anything about. but i do it because of gimpy's theory of realising the short comings of your char. so as to maximise his positive potential.

and to frostbyte, yes some of his moves to KO can be slow (however, i believe up and back air have very good speed) but i really believe they implemented a form of the magic hands from the sonic adventure games. this is b/c i consistently get a ton of kills spacing a forward smash on someone who is attacking or rolling in from the edge, and it goes through, a lot!

but even still, to be honest, the spin to jump to airial combo should do at least 30 damage. his moves just dont rack up damage the way that they should seeing as the type of character he is

 

[Umby]

You are all wrong.


All Sonics should put a focus on using Side Taunt and getting away with it constantly.

 

[smashbro29]

You are all wrong.


All Sonics should put a focus on using Side Taunt and getting away with it constantly.

see this guy has the right idea.

but in all seriousness sonic is about one thing staying unpredictable and never stopping you master those 2 things you're golden

 

[TwinkleToes]

Jab combo does 7 percent.

His pummel and upthrow do quite a bit of damage... 3 and 12 I believe. I would generally say that I don't care so much about damage since I usually just go for gimp kills anyways.

 

[Disastorm]

Sonic should be focusing on grabbing. hes the fastest character in the game making his grabs very effective. Of course I don't mean just grab all the time, but grab more than you would if you were playing a different character. Only bad thing is that strategy doesnt work on Ice Climbers since u cant really grab them :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

but you cant gimp ppl if they arent over the edge, and how do you get them over the edge?.... hitting them off the stage, and they need damage on them to do that

and @ teh umby, you just got crazy after you changed your avatar huh?

 

[Umby]

but you cant gimp ppl if they arent over the edge, and how do you get them over the edge?.... hitting them off the stage, and they need damage on them to do that

and @ teh umby, you just got crazy after you changed your avatar huh?

The parameters of my sanity were lost long before my most recent of avatar changes.

 

[TwinkleToes]

but you cant gimp ppl if they arent over the edge, and how do you get them over the edge?.... hitting them off the stage, and they need damage on them to do that

Some characters don't really need to have any damage on them for me to gimp kill them (Links for example). They just need to be near the edge. And as for "how" to get them over the edge... just get lucky if all else fails lol. If I just spam grabs or bairs I'll get them off eventually (that's an oversimplification of course :D). I know that means I'll probably take extra punishment, but the ability to kill people at low percents makes up for it.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Utilt, bair, ftilt. Learn to use these moves right, and damage will never be an issue. I frequently DON'T kill with bair, just because I use it to wrack up damage. Uthrow is also nice, and nair can do a fair share of damage, too.

14%, 12%, 7-14%, 12%, dunno what percent, lawlz.

If Sonic could do 20% more on his moves, he'd be super high tier. That's the problem with Sonic. If you change just one or two aspects of his game, he goes from sub-par to great, or even borderline broken.

Think about it. More priority? ****, it's Fox all over again. Easier/Earlier kills? Well screw anyone that doesn't have a projectile game. More damage? Would be nice, but too good, as well.

Get them off the edge with bthrow. Instantly full or double jump and bair. Worst case scenario, they'll mid-air and be fine. Best case, they'll have jumped right into it, and you can WOP them out.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

People should just try pushing a little more. Once they are off the stage Fair them. Sonic can get back from **** near anywhere. Just go for it. Once you are good at it you're set. Spindash chasing helps.

 

[Dragonbreath]

Utilt, bair, ftilt. Learn to use these moves right, and damage will never be an issue. I frequently DON'T kill with bair, just because I use it to wrack up damage. Uthrow is also nice, and nair can do a fair share of damage, too.

14%, 12%, 7-14%, 12%, dunno what percent, lawlz.

If Sonic could do 20% more on his moves, he'd be super high tier. That's the problem with Sonic. If you change just one or two aspects of his game, he goes from sub-par to great, or even borderline broken.

Think about it. More priority? ****, it's Fox all over again. Easier/Earlier kills? Well screw anyone that doesn't have a projectile game. More damage? Would be nice, but too good, as well.

Get them off the edge with bthrow. Instantly full or double jump and bair. Worst case scenario, they'll mid-air and be fine. Best case, they'll have jumped right into it, and you can WOP them out.

I think a Fsmash with a little more range on it wouldn't have broken him. Seriously, if your enemey starts getting defensive, Sonic's pool of options dries up like spit on a hot griddle.

 

[MarKO X]

Utilt, bair, ftilt. Learn to use these moves right, and damage will never be an issue. I frequently DON'T kill with bair, just because I use it to wrack up damage. Uthrow is also nice, and nair can do a fair share of damage, too.

14%, 12%, 7-14%, 12%, dunno what percent, lawlz.

If Sonic could do 20% more on his moves, he'd be super high tier. That's the problem with Sonic. If you change just one or two aspects of his game, he goes from sub-par to great, or even borderline broken.

Think about it. More priority? ****, it's Fox all over again. Easier/Earlier kills? Well screw anyone that doesn't have a projectile game. More damage? Would be nice, but too good, as well.

Get them off the edge with bthrow. Instantly full or double jump and bair. Worst case scenario, they'll mid-air and be fine. Best case, they'll have jumped right into it, and you can WOP them out.

I agree with this **** near completely. Sonic was a very well done character, even if he has his shortcomings. In order to play a decent Sonic, you have to fight like you were Sonic. You have to pretend you're the fastest hedgehog in the world. You have to think, "If I was Sonic the Hedgehog, how would I fight?"

Once you get into that mindset and learn the techniques that make Sonic special, you can and will get good at Sonic. (not to mention piss your friends off because they'll be like "WTF??? I LOST TO SONIC???" Then you can be like, "Yeah, you lost to Sonic. Not as garbage as you thought, huh?")

 

[Browny]

i dont think fsmash range is ever a problem. ive conditioned myself to only use stutter stepped f-smashes and i generally go entire matches without using a single normal f-smash. it has bigger range than many characters fsmash so its really not a problem anymore. next step for me is to get better at using tilts. i plan on perfecting sonic one step at a time. its not like G+W, all you have to do is watch a video of how to RAR properly and his dthrow-dsmash combo and your an instant pro lol

 

[FrostByte]

I would change the lag on one of his smashes. I mean, metaknight, a character notorious for not being able to KO effectively looks godly compared to Sonic. Meta's Dsmash and shuttle loop are too fast and I think Sonic *needs* something like that.

 

[Xion DarkRose]

Sonic is perfect. GG man