A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2007
- Messages
- 12,542
- Location
- RPV, California
- NNID
- A2ZOMG
- Switch FC
- SW 8400 1713 9427
If I wasn't lazy, I would make a guide. But I am lazy, so instead I'm just going to tell you exactly what is on my mind.
Bad G&Ws:
1. Don't know how to edgeguard
2. Don't know all their approach options
3. Don't even know what a slowfall D-air is and what it can be used for
4. Don't know how many options they have to techchase with that are BETTER than D-smash
5. Don't Jab cancel enough, if at all
6. Don't use enough tilts
7. Don't use enough F-air and/or U-air
8. Have really bad spacing
9. Simply haven't even studied their character or matchups at all.
Conveniently enough I have 9 different complaints about G&W, some of which are interrelated, but here is how I expect people to not fall into the category of a "Bad" G&W user.
1. This is by far the one I want to address the most. If you aren't hitting your opponent when they are offstage, I am appalled at your gameplay and don't even want to consider you a G&W main. G&W is the one character not named Metaknight who is able to in fact consistently edgeguard Metaknight. This is HUGE, and it shocks me to this day at how many G&W users are too afraid or inexperienced to exploit this.
The most obvious example of what separates a good G&W from a bad one in this situation is the use of D-air. D-air is by far G&W's most invaluable edgeguard tool. If the move spiked on the entire way down, this would easily have made G&W the best character in the game. It doesn't, so he isn't insanely broken, but the point is that it consistently punishes virtually every low recovery in the game. You should not be afraid to throw this out as an edgeguard, since G&W is perfectly capable of jumping back onstage after a quick descent. This is where slowfalling the D-air comes in. This helps tremendously in either controlling space, or giving you more leeway to recover after you land your hit. Considering the fairly high knockback of D-air, you can score some high percent KOs offstage with this, or there is the potential of a stagespike gimp, considering that it is very difficult for most players to tech a stagespike in this game.
The next thing G&W users overlook...screw that. G&W users overlook everything that is not named F-air or D-tilt at the edge. Granted those are both powerful techniques to keep at your disposal. Let me put it this way though. ALL of G&W's moves are amazing for edgeguards. It merely depends on the situation, but the point is he has an option for punishing all forms of recovery. Dash attack can stagespike people who are edgestalling. Ledgedrop B-air is simply amazing for punishing low recoveries that D-air sometimes won't hit. Edgeguarding with N-air is completely overlooked, since it covers options in case they jump over you. Even U-air is an invaluable edgeguard tool when you anticipate an Up-B. Judgement isn't useless especially against Snake. Up-B stagespikes are actually very legit when you consider the amazing potential of aggressively edgeguarding with D-air, and Up-B can get gimps against high recoveries that are far offstage. And then there is edgetrapping. If you bait a ledge attack, don't just shieldgrab if they're at 90; instead punish that **** with an Up-smash out of shield.
2. It's sad to say that there are probably people who would be surprised to hear that G&W can approach in more ways than spamming SH B-airs (which is not that good of an idea anyway). Did you know that Fullhopping a F-air actually hits 95% of the cast when they are standing on the ground? In fact SHFFed F-air isn't even a horrible approach, since it's pretty safe on block. Fullhopping B-air isn't even horrible especially against tall characters. SH N-air has MANY different applications, whether you use the final hit as an aerial poke and then jump to safety, or you rush someone down with a fastfalled N-air and then go for a combo. Then there is playing footsies with tilts, Jabs, and grabs, where you mix up your horizontal movement to bait and control space and then pressure your opponent with your grounded poke options. G&W really is no more limited in his approach than most characters. In fact his approach has quite a few options, and overlooking those options is a recipe for failure.
3. I might have implied earlier, but still to this day, even though it's been over a year since the boards have discussed this, many G&W users (and non-G&W users) STILL don't know what a slowfalled D-air is. It may in part be blame with the oxymoronic name of the AT (TECHNICALLY it should be called a Fastfalled D-air, since that is how you actually perform it).
Slowfalling a D-air is amazingly useful, considering the extremely high priority of the move. By slowfalling it, your options with the move increase ranging from spacing, landing safely via well-timed autocancels, edgeguarding, controlling space, it's something that no G&W user should ignore. Yet it's still by far one of G&W's most overlooked advantages. This has to stop now.
4. Techchasing. Well to be fair, it's a very advanced strategy and usually very difficult for even top players to rely on. Regardless there are definitely smart options and dumb options for techchasing.
For one, don't just D-smash unless it's for kills or setting up edgeguards. It really isn't the best option for multiple reasons. One because well, you're staling a KO move, and even if G&W is pretty good at restoring his moves, it's still an extra thing you have to do if you're going to kill with that. Next, well you really can't do much if they techroll away from you. And if your opponent happens to be a heavyweight like Snake, he can actually tech in place and U-tilt you before your D-smash comes out.
You have a few more options that are probably more worthwhile. One is Jabbing, which resets the situation and puts them into position to be Jab cancel grabbed again (although watch out, your Jab cancel grab CAN be interrupted in some situations which will require you to shield first and then grab, and it might whiff on techs in place). D-tilt is a conservative option that is easy to buffer. F-tilt is a decent option that hits every character that misses a tech and can get people offstage. U-tilt I'm not certain if it works on everyone, but when it hits, sets up for potentially massive damage at low percents. Lastly and most importantly, Dash attack. Dash attack is by far the most overlooked of G&W's missed tech options. It does 11 damage, punishes people even if they tech in place (including those Snakes who want to land that U-tilt on you), and it puts people in a position that is easy to follow up with. D-throw Dash attack does 17 damage, which is quite good, and this option can also consistently punish techrolls and people who try to spotdodge you on reaction to techchase regrabs.
Against lightweights if they miss a tech, you can't ignore D-air, which does a LOT more damage than Jab, and much more reliably combos into a regrab. Courtesy of Vinnie for pointing this one out.
I'm not telling you to stop using D-smash out of D-throw altogether. You just need to be able to think outside the box with it. It all comes down to conditioning your opponent, and if your opponent always thinks that you will chase a techroll towards the center of the stage, you will see many opponents who will attempt to trick you with a techroll towards the edge. This is how I scored a kill on my friend's Wolf. I D-throwed him fairly close to the edge, reacted to his techroll towards the edge, and D-smashed him for a vertical KO. Also keep in mind that you can D-smash out of shield against people who do a getup attack as well.
And it should really go without saying, but if you're going to attempt a techchase option, BE COMMITTED TO IT. Nothing is worse than getting punished for screwing up an indecisive techchase attempt.
5. Plain and simple. If you don't do it already, do it now. Jab canceling is amazing in this game and should be one of your bread and butter strategies, especially since G&W gets slight frame advantage when he Jab cancels. While G&W really only has D-tilt and Grab as quick alternate options, his grab in particular is very much worth landing due to his ability to follow up after putting someone in a disadvantaged position. D-tilt has its uses for spacing when you aren't close enough to grab (although it is guaranteed on nobody). Attempting anything else from Jab cancel is not recommended unless people spotdodge a lot when you Jab cancel them (I don't know anyone who tries to spotdodge me after Jab cancels personally).
6. It's funny to think that G&W's tilts are underused especially considering the hype his D-tilt had from the beginning of Brawl. I guess his tilts aren't as impressive as his aerials, but they still can't be ignored. G&W has a VERY good D-tilt which comes out frame 6, has pretty good range both horizontally and vertically, and lingers. While not necessarily the ultimate poke, it does a VERY good job of shutting down approaches, interrupting attacks, and keeping people on their toes in footsies. It's G&W's lowest hitting move as well, having a hitbox that reaches into the ground, so it actually has very useful shenanigans when platform camping against tall characters (or characters who jump) or when edgeguarding.
G&W's other tilts are too situational to be part of his staple game, but they still warrant use. His F-tilt is frame 10, which isn't too slow, and does a little more damage and shield pushback than D-tilt, and it is an option out of D-throw, so it can be good for getting people offstage or for emergency kills. U-tilt lingers and is a good move for juggling and punishing airdodges and anti-airing. It's ability to kill at moderately high percents is worth exploring as well, especially since N-air easily combos into it.
7. Y'know...I really don't understand why people think of G&W as spamming B-airs anymore, especially if they also state that you can SDI his B-air.
This is why F-airs are so amazing. They do a TON of damage (more than B-air), and they don't get SDIed. The landing lag isn't actually as bad as it looks. The move isn't horribly unsafe on block when fastfalled. Plus the fullhopped version is safe in most situations and hits the majority of the cast.
U-air is also surprisingly underused by a lot of G&Ws. I think most of us however can agree that the ability to keep people above G&W, which is where he is strongest, NOT TO MENTION the ability to refresh moves for "free" is very very valuable. Hitting with the actual move itself is pretty rewarding as well, doing about 17 damage if both hits land, and the first hit has the potential to start combos when fastfalled.
8. Yeah. It's a generalization. However considering how much G&W gets unfairly criticized for being linear, can you prove me that I'm wrong when I observe that so many G&Ws - who demonstrate an outstanding lack of knowledge of G&W's best options - have very bad fundamental spacing? The kind of spacing that constantly gets baited all day by generic retreats and even shieldgrabs. Not to mention a very weak understanding of other forms of spacial awareness, such as the ability to control space with mobility and tilts, situations where moves are viable out of shield, the ability to **** people offstage with G&W's insane offstage control options. Can you see where my frustration comes from?
9. Study your character dammit. Hylian has been telling us to do that since forever ago, and that is how I'm improving with G&W. I take a lot of time to learn what is possible in all situations. What's so great about G&W is virtually everything that you discover that works with G&W is REALLY REALLY GOOD. It comes with him being an amazingly powerful character with solid options once he's gotten his opponent where he wants them to me.
There's a lot of possibilities with G&W. Chef to shut down big characters and **** them when edgeguarding. Standing on platforms and D-tilting against big characters. 3rd hit of N-air -> D-smash combo. Up-smash out of shield against ledge attacks. His B boosted and B reversal specials are much overlooked as well and useful pocked options as well. This applies to all characters, but is definitely no less important for G&W. Study your character and this game. Go in depth into learning how your options interact with other characters. Analyze what you can do if you come across a problem.
Bad G&Ws:
1. Don't know how to edgeguard
2. Don't know all their approach options
3. Don't even know what a slowfall D-air is and what it can be used for
4. Don't know how many options they have to techchase with that are BETTER than D-smash
5. Don't Jab cancel enough, if at all
6. Don't use enough tilts
7. Don't use enough F-air and/or U-air
8. Have really bad spacing
9. Simply haven't even studied their character or matchups at all.
Conveniently enough I have 9 different complaints about G&W, some of which are interrelated, but here is how I expect people to not fall into the category of a "Bad" G&W user.
1. This is by far the one I want to address the most. If you aren't hitting your opponent when they are offstage, I am appalled at your gameplay and don't even want to consider you a G&W main. G&W is the one character not named Metaknight who is able to in fact consistently edgeguard Metaknight. This is HUGE, and it shocks me to this day at how many G&W users are too afraid or inexperienced to exploit this.
The most obvious example of what separates a good G&W from a bad one in this situation is the use of D-air. D-air is by far G&W's most invaluable edgeguard tool. If the move spiked on the entire way down, this would easily have made G&W the best character in the game. It doesn't, so he isn't insanely broken, but the point is that it consistently punishes virtually every low recovery in the game. You should not be afraid to throw this out as an edgeguard, since G&W is perfectly capable of jumping back onstage after a quick descent. This is where slowfalling the D-air comes in. This helps tremendously in either controlling space, or giving you more leeway to recover after you land your hit. Considering the fairly high knockback of D-air, you can score some high percent KOs offstage with this, or there is the potential of a stagespike gimp, considering that it is very difficult for most players to tech a stagespike in this game.
The next thing G&W users overlook...screw that. G&W users overlook everything that is not named F-air or D-tilt at the edge. Granted those are both powerful techniques to keep at your disposal. Let me put it this way though. ALL of G&W's moves are amazing for edgeguards. It merely depends on the situation, but the point is he has an option for punishing all forms of recovery. Dash attack can stagespike people who are edgestalling. Ledgedrop B-air is simply amazing for punishing low recoveries that D-air sometimes won't hit. Edgeguarding with N-air is completely overlooked, since it covers options in case they jump over you. Even U-air is an invaluable edgeguard tool when you anticipate an Up-B. Judgement isn't useless especially against Snake. Up-B stagespikes are actually very legit when you consider the amazing potential of aggressively edgeguarding with D-air, and Up-B can get gimps against high recoveries that are far offstage. And then there is edgetrapping. If you bait a ledge attack, don't just shieldgrab if they're at 90; instead punish that **** with an Up-smash out of shield.
2. It's sad to say that there are probably people who would be surprised to hear that G&W can approach in more ways than spamming SH B-airs (which is not that good of an idea anyway). Did you know that Fullhopping a F-air actually hits 95% of the cast when they are standing on the ground? In fact SHFFed F-air isn't even a horrible approach, since it's pretty safe on block. Fullhopping B-air isn't even horrible especially against tall characters. SH N-air has MANY different applications, whether you use the final hit as an aerial poke and then jump to safety, or you rush someone down with a fastfalled N-air and then go for a combo. Then there is playing footsies with tilts, Jabs, and grabs, where you mix up your horizontal movement to bait and control space and then pressure your opponent with your grounded poke options. G&W really is no more limited in his approach than most characters. In fact his approach has quite a few options, and overlooking those options is a recipe for failure.
3. I might have implied earlier, but still to this day, even though it's been over a year since the boards have discussed this, many G&W users (and non-G&W users) STILL don't know what a slowfalled D-air is. It may in part be blame with the oxymoronic name of the AT (TECHNICALLY it should be called a Fastfalled D-air, since that is how you actually perform it).
Slowfalling a D-air is amazingly useful, considering the extremely high priority of the move. By slowfalling it, your options with the move increase ranging from spacing, landing safely via well-timed autocancels, edgeguarding, controlling space, it's something that no G&W user should ignore. Yet it's still by far one of G&W's most overlooked advantages. This has to stop now.
4. Techchasing. Well to be fair, it's a very advanced strategy and usually very difficult for even top players to rely on. Regardless there are definitely smart options and dumb options for techchasing.
For one, don't just D-smash unless it's for kills or setting up edgeguards. It really isn't the best option for multiple reasons. One because well, you're staling a KO move, and even if G&W is pretty good at restoring his moves, it's still an extra thing you have to do if you're going to kill with that. Next, well you really can't do much if they techroll away from you. And if your opponent happens to be a heavyweight like Snake, he can actually tech in place and U-tilt you before your D-smash comes out.
You have a few more options that are probably more worthwhile. One is Jabbing, which resets the situation and puts them into position to be Jab cancel grabbed again (although watch out, your Jab cancel grab CAN be interrupted in some situations which will require you to shield first and then grab, and it might whiff on techs in place). D-tilt is a conservative option that is easy to buffer. F-tilt is a decent option that hits every character that misses a tech and can get people offstage. U-tilt I'm not certain if it works on everyone, but when it hits, sets up for potentially massive damage at low percents. Lastly and most importantly, Dash attack. Dash attack is by far the most overlooked of G&W's missed tech options. It does 11 damage, punishes people even if they tech in place (including those Snakes who want to land that U-tilt on you), and it puts people in a position that is easy to follow up with. D-throw Dash attack does 17 damage, which is quite good, and this option can also consistently punish techrolls and people who try to spotdodge you on reaction to techchase regrabs.
Against lightweights if they miss a tech, you can't ignore D-air, which does a LOT more damage than Jab, and much more reliably combos into a regrab. Courtesy of Vinnie for pointing this one out.
I'm not telling you to stop using D-smash out of D-throw altogether. You just need to be able to think outside the box with it. It all comes down to conditioning your opponent, and if your opponent always thinks that you will chase a techroll towards the center of the stage, you will see many opponents who will attempt to trick you with a techroll towards the edge. This is how I scored a kill on my friend's Wolf. I D-throwed him fairly close to the edge, reacted to his techroll towards the edge, and D-smashed him for a vertical KO. Also keep in mind that you can D-smash out of shield against people who do a getup attack as well.
And it should really go without saying, but if you're going to attempt a techchase option, BE COMMITTED TO IT. Nothing is worse than getting punished for screwing up an indecisive techchase attempt.
5. Plain and simple. If you don't do it already, do it now. Jab canceling is amazing in this game and should be one of your bread and butter strategies, especially since G&W gets slight frame advantage when he Jab cancels. While G&W really only has D-tilt and Grab as quick alternate options, his grab in particular is very much worth landing due to his ability to follow up after putting someone in a disadvantaged position. D-tilt has its uses for spacing when you aren't close enough to grab (although it is guaranteed on nobody). Attempting anything else from Jab cancel is not recommended unless people spotdodge a lot when you Jab cancel them (I don't know anyone who tries to spotdodge me after Jab cancels personally).
6. It's funny to think that G&W's tilts are underused especially considering the hype his D-tilt had from the beginning of Brawl. I guess his tilts aren't as impressive as his aerials, but they still can't be ignored. G&W has a VERY good D-tilt which comes out frame 6, has pretty good range both horizontally and vertically, and lingers. While not necessarily the ultimate poke, it does a VERY good job of shutting down approaches, interrupting attacks, and keeping people on their toes in footsies. It's G&W's lowest hitting move as well, having a hitbox that reaches into the ground, so it actually has very useful shenanigans when platform camping against tall characters (or characters who jump) or when edgeguarding.
G&W's other tilts are too situational to be part of his staple game, but they still warrant use. His F-tilt is frame 10, which isn't too slow, and does a little more damage and shield pushback than D-tilt, and it is an option out of D-throw, so it can be good for getting people offstage or for emergency kills. U-tilt lingers and is a good move for juggling and punishing airdodges and anti-airing. It's ability to kill at moderately high percents is worth exploring as well, especially since N-air easily combos into it.
7. Y'know...I really don't understand why people think of G&W as spamming B-airs anymore, especially if they also state that you can SDI his B-air.
This is why F-airs are so amazing. They do a TON of damage (more than B-air), and they don't get SDIed. The landing lag isn't actually as bad as it looks. The move isn't horribly unsafe on block when fastfalled. Plus the fullhopped version is safe in most situations and hits the majority of the cast.
U-air is also surprisingly underused by a lot of G&Ws. I think most of us however can agree that the ability to keep people above G&W, which is where he is strongest, NOT TO MENTION the ability to refresh moves for "free" is very very valuable. Hitting with the actual move itself is pretty rewarding as well, doing about 17 damage if both hits land, and the first hit has the potential to start combos when fastfalled.
8. Yeah. It's a generalization. However considering how much G&W gets unfairly criticized for being linear, can you prove me that I'm wrong when I observe that so many G&Ws - who demonstrate an outstanding lack of knowledge of G&W's best options - have very bad fundamental spacing? The kind of spacing that constantly gets baited all day by generic retreats and even shieldgrabs. Not to mention a very weak understanding of other forms of spacial awareness, such as the ability to control space with mobility and tilts, situations where moves are viable out of shield, the ability to **** people offstage with G&W's insane offstage control options. Can you see where my frustration comes from?
9. Study your character dammit. Hylian has been telling us to do that since forever ago, and that is how I'm improving with G&W. I take a lot of time to learn what is possible in all situations. What's so great about G&W is virtually everything that you discover that works with G&W is REALLY REALLY GOOD. It comes with him being an amazingly powerful character with solid options once he's gotten his opponent where he wants them to me.
There's a lot of possibilities with G&W. Chef to shut down big characters and **** them when edgeguarding. Standing on platforms and D-tilting against big characters. 3rd hit of N-air -> D-smash combo. Up-smash out of shield against ledge attacks. His B boosted and B reversal specials are much overlooked as well and useful pocked options as well. This applies to all characters, but is definitely no less important for G&W. Study your character and this game. Go in depth into learning how your options interact with other characters. Analyze what you can do if you come across a problem.
