what is your ideal "4.0" lucario?

[Maikou]

Naw man. It's cool. I know you weren't angry or anything. I was just outlining the difficulties a Lucario from PM/Smash 4 would face if we keep his aura mechanic and change up his moves. Though I was indeed addressing what you brought up.

I don't think it's a good idea to revert to Brawl/Smash 4 Lucario in the PM environment. I wasn't necessarily saying they are good or bad objectively. It would require some serious changes to the old aura system to be a gimmick worthy of functioning in the faster environment as it stands right now. There's too much against it right now in theory.

I'm not exactly sure how to change DT to be more straightforward, but I'll tell you the best way I can to help you understand it. Use it to screw with your opponent. You can go to it from any attack other than specials or grabs. It's great for putting space between you, and just great for looking stylish and making your opponent go "WTF was that?". All my practice partners still get mind****ed by this move. I don't really know anything about SSE in all honesty. Most of my time is consumed in training trying to get my daggum hand to get down moonwalking. I'm so not used to moving my hand for that kind of technique.

There's a problem with that strategy for me: AI's don't get mindscrewed. Ever. They see all and they do all. Like I said, my problems aren't exactly too huge, but my problem with the down-special is from playing against picture-perfect AI. Level fives, to be exact, which are distinctly brutal and obviously made for competitive play. I fought against one in All-Star Special mode and one of the things I will never forget from that fight is Falco obliterating me with that Reflector of his.

I kind of don't have anyone to play against, at all.

@ Maikou So this DT conversation is quite similar to one I had with a Brawl Lucario main when he first started playing PM with me. As an alternative way to think about the move (in addition to what was stated above), think of Double Team as a counter to projectiles and unsafe over commitment. The move shares the read-punish nature of a standard counter, but also has the added benefit of allowing the player to choose the punish, and comes with a fair bit of utility in the form of monstrous horizontal recovery distance, general movement, and safer escapes when applying unsafe shield pressure.

Though I can't say I'm sure why Lucario received OHC specifically, I can definitely clarify the removal of the previous Aura mechanic: it takes reward out of the player's control. In the Project M setting (and with very few exceptions, in the Smash Bros. setting as a whole), the reward a player received in play was dependent upon the character's design and the player's skill. Further, this reward remained static, characterwise, across the entire play experience. The Brawl Aura design drastically changed Lucario's potential throughout the match, depending upon the situation specifics of "Stock Lead?(Y/N); Percent?" (I must say that I am thankful of Smash 4's percent dependency only design.). PM Lucario's experience is more normalized: Damage remains constant across stocks and percent, though significant reward is obtained via player skill (in this case successful read/punishes and combo game), players are expected to have around one charge at any one moment, a charge is gained via the Lucario player's successful interaction with the opponent, and using a charge effectively still relies greatly on player interactions. Notably, 3.02 Lucario featured the most normalized play experience thanks to the minimum one charge on respawn (Though I must say I enjoy 3.5's requirement to make conscious decisions when recovering (Should I burn DT now or later? Save a charge and risk a more difficult recovery? Prioritize this stock's survival over powerful kill potential? Recover now and try to squeak out an opponent's stock or respawn and Force Blast the 130% opponent?)).

I'd like to thank both of you for being helpful. I haven't exactly had the best experiences with posts like that first one up there. In all honesty, besides my Lucario complaints and the brutal AI, I don't really have any problems with Project M. I like a lot of the changes actually.

 

[Zoa]

It's cool. You can actually mess with the AI a lot by doing DT cross ups from OHC. Granted the AI is kinda spot on at times similar to Mewtwo's Teleport, but they have difficulty countering DT off of OHC.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I would give his pulse part of side-B a charged version with the power of about an F-smash.
Reduce the ending/start up lag on the aura sphere by just a tad.
Bring back aura charge resetting to 1 after death.
Instead of having his aerial side-B be a insta kill that's really hard to hit with, but be a decent spike that can KO at like 120 uncharged, and 90 charged but can be hit more reliably (yes this would get rid of some the hype, but Lucario combos are pretty hype as it is.)
Increased run speed.
Lower his short hop.
incorporate grabbing in the sacred combo, with limitations (ex: having slightly worse grabs or just being able to grab out of AC double team.)
Change crawl tilt, to a scooping attack like samus's D-tilt to send people behind Lucario.
Give him a Link like Bair.


Adding these buffs I don't think they would make him overpowered, because he still has a huge spot dodge weakness as well as other things, but this would make him more of a viable character and overall more fun to play with more options and mix ups than before, I'd love some feed back if agree or disagree with any of my choices.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I would give his pulse part of side-B a charged version with the power of about an F-smash.
Reduce the ending/start up lag on the aura sphere by just a tad.
Bring back aura charge resetting to 1 after death.
Instead of having his aerial side-B be a insta kill that's really hard to hit with, but be a decent spike that can KO at like 120 uncharged, and 90 charged but can be hit more reliably (yes this would get rid of some the hype, but Lucario combos are pretty hype as it is.)
Increased run speed.
Lower his short hop.
incorporate grabbing in the sacred combo, with limitations (ex: having slightly worse grabs or just being able to grab out of AC double team.)
Change crawl tilt, to a scooping attack like samus's D-tilt to send people behind Lucario.
Give him a Link like Bair.


Adding these buffs I don't think they would make him overpowered, because he still has a huge spot dodge weakness as well as other things, but this would make him more of a viable character and overall more fun to play with more options and mix ups than before, I'd love some feed back if agree or disagree with any of my choices.

You're kinda stretching it here... that is a LOT of buffs. Lucario is fine right how he is in my opinion, a good solid punish character with a supbar neutral. You're saying we should make him faster, make ASC faster with less lag on AS, better SHFFL, grabbing out of OHC, and another kill option in side-b. And you're telling me with the work people do with him now, adding all of this is gonna go over well? He'd be a monster.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

You're kinda stretching it here... that is a LOT of buffs. Lucario is fine right how he is in my opinion, a good solid punish character with a supbar neutral. You're saying we should make him faster, make ASC faster with less lag on AS, better SHFFL, grabbing out of OHC, and another kill option in side-b. And you're telling me with the work people do with him now, adding all of this is gonna go over well? He'd be a monster.

I was giving ideas for different buffs to make a more balanced fun character. I know that a Lucario with these buffs would be a little on the powerful side, but just a little. I love Lucario, his play style his, his combos and everything. But spot dodges will always exist which cripples his entire idea. A friend of mine used to play Lucario and would wreck people with him, but soon after everyone would just spot dodge his limited approaches and punish with ease. The aura mechanic is incredibly unique in smash and I would never wanted it removed, but Lucario in my opinion needs to be a bit on the powerful side because of this. I'd say the biggest buff needed is just a faster dash speed to buff is huge lack of neutral game.

 

[NanoHologuise]

Sorta new to Lucario, but I was thinking as he has no x>FP options on shield, how does aura charging FP during startup speed up the startup so you can grab quicker sound? I'm not too sure if this would be a little OP or not, given that from what I can gather form watching VODs most of the time charges are used for DTCing into tilts or jabs, and ESC >Nair/DT to recover or kill. However, if you get a decent combo off of the FP on shield you could potentially make up for the Aura Charge you lost, and maybe take a stock, which might make it a bit too strong given Lucario's touch of death. Thoughts?

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

It would be nice to have his Bair not turn himself around, this would allow some falcon esk combos with reverse Bairs into something, I guess you could do this by turning yourself around with an aura sphere but that still limits your options.

 

[Gooch]

Ideal 4.0 lucario would be the way he is now.
Without the stupidity that is Airdodge out of UPB cancel
and invincibilty on the attack after a canceled downB

 

[Podoboo]

Remove ASC in the air and make his other options stronger, Extremespeed startup faster, fix his sweetspotting.

 

[666blaziken]

Remove ASC in the air and make his other options stronger, Extremespeed startup faster, fix his sweetspotting.

Are you kidding? That would make lucario an easy character! ASC is extremley hard to do to make it as good as it is, you basically have to do an aerial attack, and quickly press b and then r, and then attack again within 30 frames, which is a very tight timing. Extreme speed would be too good with less startup; it already has an air dodge and you can attack out of it, why make it so that way, no matter how good you are, you can't edgeguard lucario?

 

[Podoboo]

Are you kidding? That would make lucario an easy character! ASC is extremley hard to do to make it as good as it is, you basically have to do an aerial attack, and quickly press b and then r, and then attack again within 30 frames, which is a very tight timing. Extreme speed would be too good with less startup; it already has an air dodge and you can attack out of it, why make it so that way, no matter how good you are, you can't edgeguard lucario?

30 frames is half a second, ASC isn't difficult with any amount of practice.

 

[666blaziken]

30 frames is half a second, ASC isn't difficult with any amount of practice.

still though, why remove it? It's part of what makes lucario's combo game so fun and unique.

 

[jack.f]

what if aura spere shot down in the air? and it was slightly slower? most fighting games use downward projectiles in the air. Not one matchup would get worse from this. it could help edge guard and his neutral a lot.

 

[Risky]

Would they make his aerials faster to compensate? @ Podoboo

That sounds sick @ J jack.f

 

[Podoboo]

what if aura spere shot down in the air? and it was slightly slower? most fighting games use downward projectiles in the air. Not one matchup would get worse from this. it could help edge guard and his neutral a lot.

I do think thats a really neat idea. Maybe in a 45 degree angle ala ness?

 

[jack.f]

I do think thats a really neat idea. Maybe in a 45 degree angle ala ness?

probably close to that, but not to straight down it would make him god like at edge guards, spirit ball is ridiculous to get around and the side b dunk.

 

[Stryker]

Hmm... Ideal 4.0 lucario huh?
Make his up taunt chargable, as was mentioned in the forums. Make me feel more even more DBZ. Love it. Even if you have to lower the amount of aura given, i dont even mind. Just make it holdable because I feel like that would be mega satisfying.

After careful consideration of all other available options, all I want for christmas is...
Up b hitbox consistency.
Maybe it's how I use it, or maybe it's just the way the wind/hitboxes are set, and maybe it's not even possible to change.

But when I look back on my lucario experience... thats literally the only thing I can think to complain about.
Tilts are solid. Ftilt feels a bit useless, but I really feel like thats my personal experience and playstyle.
Smashes are great. Specials are great except what I mentioned about extreme speed.
Maybe make it so that ASC can happen first frame on Aura sphere? I feel like this would be a super extreme buff but the only other difficulty in play pattern I see is that sometimes you can let go of your shoulder button early. But yeah, that would make ASC way easy, i dunno if they want that necessarily.

My ideal 4.0 Lucario: Chargeable Taunt, and No Nerfs. I would be over the moon.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

Zankyu hadouken. The only thing I can think of is maybe making aerial spirit bomb travel at the same angle as sheiks air needles. Or would that be unavoidable and cheap?
He's such a solid character right now.

 

[bec]

first frame IASA aura sphere would be the most busted thing in the history of the game
yes, including shine

 

[JFyst]

Up b after the aura cancel if the aerial connects it should NOT be able to cancel to another up-b. Side b should have to commit to the ex version before the grab actually connects. His neutral game in general needs NERF, I'm sorry but any character who can **** shield pressure on shield, is not bad in neutral, his recovery options are ridiculous, this also should be looked at. Now as I write this, it should also be noted most of this, I mean in a world where, melee can be nerfed as well. But because most likely they won't do **** to them, lucario is mostly fine maybe some slight nerfs but nothin major.

 

[Brim]

buffs, nerfs, general changes - what do you want to see in the next update for the blue furry?

personally i would like to see some (much needed, imo) buffs that are nothing major but would give him the edge he needs. all of this is just my opinion so you are free to disagree or argue

• return wall cling and allow it out of an aura cancelled up b but NOT a regular up b
• down b and up b startup reduced slightly
• down b teleport slightly longer(?)
• light armor on aura bomb startup
• invincibility on up b cancel
• more sex kick properties on fair
• slightly better grab range
• an option for unlimited aura for training purposes!

as far as alt costumes or anything like that, i'm not sure personally, most of my thought has gone into the moveset and such. mega lucario is the obvious thing but legal reasons prevent that last i heard.

thoughts? opinions? trash my thoughts and opinions? questions? blue furries?

Late response, but perhaps Mega Lucario could simply serve as an alternate costume? Otherwise I'm not sure what other legal issues present themselves. Perhaps copyright.

 

[Rai-Zikudo]

I agree on the "no OHC ABC combos" argument. He's become a MvC character, and I feel like Lucario should have to work for his combos like every other character, instead of having them given to him.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I agree on the "no OHC ABC combos" argument. He's become a MvC character, and I feel like Lucario should have to work for his combos like every other character, instead of having them given to him.

Are you talking about the magic series combo string? Because if Lucario just does that, he is a terrible character. In order to be good he has to do AuraSphere cancels meaning that he can combo with the diversity of characters, but has to put in more work.

 

[JFyst]

Are you talking about the magic series combo string? Because if Lucario just does that, he is a terrible character. In order to be good he has to do AuraSphere cancels meaning that he can combo with the diversity of characters, but has to put in more work.

Because dash attack > up tilt > upsmash/up air > up b > aura cancel > nair. Won't work right? D tilt>nair is a kill set up at 90%, ex side b is a kill confirm at 120%. Shield pressure is dumb no matter what you do. Asc's push an already powerful character into even more ******** levels. But it is not required to make him effective

 

[Stryker]

Because dash attack > up tilt > upsmash/up air > up b > aura cancel > nair. Won't work right? D tilt>nair is a kill set up at 90%, ex side b is a kill confirm at 120%. Shield pressure is dumb no matter what you do. Asc's push an already powerful character into even more ******** levels. But it is not required to make him effective

Upthrow Knee is a kill set up that works at 80% on falcon. Shine spikes kills at anything. Telling us that something kills early doesn't really mean anything.

Try hitting that first combo you mentioned. Lucario players need to work for it. The other thing that you didn't mention is that you can literally just grab the Dash Attack and punish. >.> Seriously. If lucario wants to play it safe and approach with DA>utilt, just grab either of them. -.-
Lucario does not have infinite shield pressure, learn the gaps in timing and you can punish just like any other character with shield pressure. This is the kind of thing that Fox and Falco do, but they are better at it. Go play against a decent spacie and they will make lucario shield pressure seem like a joke.
The problem is that people who don't understand the matchup will freak out, assume everything lucario does is safe on shield, get grabbed for shielding to long and think the matchup is unfair.
Learn shield pressure. Learn to spot dodge or roll OOS. Learn to CC stuff instead of shielding.
Basically I'm saying that if your defense is crumpling to a lucario player, it's not because the lucario player has too many tools, it's because you aren't using any of your defensive tools.

PMDT has stated that they want to bring everyone up to a top tier level. Lucario is a great example of a character I feel they were successful with.
ASC and OHC puts this character on the same level as many other characters in this game. For example, Spacies, Ike, or anyone else that was given a system that allows for more complex mixups.
The problem is not every other character is on this level.
I feel like the overarching goal is to have most all characters feel like this, but some aren't finished yet. Tools like Quick draw cancel, Acting out of Up-B, Shell Shift, and a few other things are large systematic changes that give the character enough options to keep up with shines from the spacies from melee. Some characters are still waiting to have a design that truly allows them to do this.

 

[Gooch]

I love lucario right now; A lot of the fat from 3.5 was trimmed, i think the ASC nerf was necessary but a little overdone by doubling it. I think 6 frames would have been fine for everyone. But the best nerf is the hitbox not coming out immediately so that people dont get trapped in it.

One thing I would wish for is just a little more kill power in the kit. Not much, just a tad. maybe on moves like uAir and Dair.

but **** that new dash animation ;-;

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Am I the only person who thinks the new dash looks good? His old dash just looked silly.

 

[Gooch]

I kinda dig it in full dash, but its dash makes dancing look really off.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I kinda dig it in full dash, but its dash makes dancing look really off.

I agree. His full dash looks great, but dash dancing looks a little wonky. That being said, I don't think the original initial dash animation looked much better when dash dancing either. This subject matters so little it's honestly not even worth changing.

 

[ruhtraeel]

The one thing that I want in 4.0 Lucario is his 3.5 Side-B back, without as much knockback as 3.6b. This messed up my non ASC combos so much that I now need to spam ASC repeatedly for any type of combo, something I think they were trying to tone down for this patch.
Ie. In 3.5, at 0% on a Fox, you could dash attack into side B into another dash attack into side B. This is almost impossible in 3.6b because Fox gets hit too far after the initial side B.
In 3.5, on floatier characters, you could dash attack to side B to SH f-air to another side B or a jab then a side B. This is almost impossible in 3.6b, as again, they get hit too far back.

That and maybe change his f-tilt, as I've never found use for it (Maybe a larger hitbox so that it can cover options when opponents get hit too far back from dash attack, or have much less knockback so that it can be comboed out of).
That's all.

I might take a break from PM and go back to Melee until his side-B is fixed, as it is such a worse combo move now, and it feels like I have to overuse ASC to combo now.

 

[Gooch]

I think a good way to balance sideB to where its a balance between both incarnations, would be for it to send at a tech chase angle (down and away) and bring back the IASI frames so we can react to it.

The only balance problem i can see with this is the angle it would send spacies and other fast fallers at the ledge

 

[ruhtraeel]

I think a good way to balance sideB to where its a balance between both incarnations, would be for it to send at a tech chase angle (down and away) and bring back the IASI frames so we can react to it.

The only balance problem i can see with this is the angle it would send spacies and other fast fallers at the ledge

I am talking about grounded side-B.

 

[Akkien]

The one thing that I want in 4.0 Lucario is his 3.5 Side-B back, without as much knockback as 3.6b. This messed up my non ASC combos so much that I now need to spam ASC repeatedly for any type of combo, something I think they were trying to tone down for this patch.
Ie. In 3.5, at 0% on a Fox, you could dash attack into side B into another dash attack into side B. This is almost impossible in 3.6b because Fox gets hit too far after the initial side B.
In 3.5, on floatier characters, you could dash attack to side B to SH f-air to another side B or a jab then a side B. This is almost impossible in 3.6b, as again, they get hit too far back.

That and maybe change his f-tilt, as I've never found use for it (Maybe a larger hitbox so that it can cover options when opponents get hit too far back from dash attack, or have much less knockback so that it can be comboed out of).
That's all.
I might take a break from PM and go back to Melee until his side-B is fixed, as it is such a worse combo move now, and it feels like I have to overuse ASC to combo now.

Have you heard of the Magic Series?

In regards to Ftilt, I feel like it's already a good move that you don't really want to use at higher percents. it's great for pushing your opponent near ledge while starting a combo that could go into Up Smash > Side-B or Up-Smash > Anything else offstage. It may not be Lucario's best move but it's not a waste either like Ctilt; it's still useful.

---

Now, my two cents:

I feel like if Lucario needed some adjustment on his taunt or ASC again to speed it up a bit as some have suggested (IASA on frame 6 instead of 8), a good thing to do imo is to make ASC cost a certain amount of Aura Points. Not a charge, just a certain amount of Aura, like a tenth of a charge or something like that (the same amount you earn when taunting). Think about it; it'd be 2 ASCs per non-late Dash Attack, which doesn't sound bad to me. I mean, you're still sticking out a ball of Aura with that move so, wouldn't that make sense? The only downside to this suggestion would be keeping track of Aura, and I imagine it could be frustrating for many to find themselves not being able to ASC at certain moments during a match, but hey, just an idea; thought it'd be better to post it here rather than say nothing.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Have you heard of the Magic Series?

In regards to Ftilt, I feel like it's already a good move that you don't really want to use at higher percents. it's great for pushing your opponent near ledge while starting a combo that could go into Up Smash > Side-B or Up-Smash > Anything else offstage. It may not be Lucario's best move but it's not a waste either like Ctilt; it's still useful.

---

Now, my two cents:

I feel like if Lucario needed some adjustment on his taunt or ASC again to speed it up a bit as some have suggested (IASA on frame 6 instead of 8), a good thing to do imo is to make ASC cost a certain amount of Aura Points. Not a charge, just a certain amount of Aura, like a tenth of a charge or something like that (the same amount you earn when taunting). Think about it; it'd be 2 ASCs per non-late Dash Attack, which doesn't sound bad to me. I mean, you're still sticking out a ball of Aura with that move so, wouldn't that make sense? The only downside to this suggestion would be keeping track of Aura, and I imagine it could be frustrating for many to find themselves not being able to ASC at certain moments during a match, but hey, just an idea; thought it'd be better to post it here rather than say nothing.

I now default to dash attack -> u-tilt -> dsmash, which doesn't work on floatier characters like Marth. For floatier characters, I use dash attack -> u-tilt -> u-smash -> n-air

But still, taking the combo potential out of side-B is a HUGE nerf that I feel is unnecessary.

 

[Gooch]

I dont think a command grab that can be done in the middle of a combo on shield should have too much combo potential anyway aside from very low percents.

Its fine the way it is.

 

[ruhtraeel]

I dont think a command grab that can be done in the middle of a combo on shield should have too much combo potential anyway aside from very low percents.

Its fine the way it is.

I am going to wholeheartedly disagree with this and the claim that it is fine the way it is. Keep in mind that any character in the game can grab in the middle of a combo (I don't know what you mean when you say a combo on shield), but Fox, as an example, can shield pressure you and then throw in a grab or a shine grab, which is just as safe if not safer than Lucario being able to side-B during shield pressure. And as any player would hopefully know, Fox's u-throw can guarantee a combo not only at low percents.