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what is your ideal "4.0" lucario?

bec

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buffs, nerfs, general changes - what do you want to see in the next update for the blue furry?

personally i would like to see some (much needed, imo) buffs that are nothing major but would give him the edge he needs. all of this is just my opinion so you are free to disagree or argue
  • return wall cling and allow it out of an aura cancelled up b but NOT a regular up b
  • down b and up b startup reduced slightly
  • down b teleport slightly longer(?)
  • light armor on aura bomb startup
  • invincibility on up b cancel
  • more sex kick properties on fair
  • slightly better grab range
  • an option for unlimited aura for training purposes!
as far as alt costumes or anything like that, i'm not sure personally, most of my thought has gone into the moveset and such. mega lucario is the obvious thing but legal reasons prevent that last i heard.

thoughts? opinions? trash my thoughts and opinions? questions? blue furries?
 

AkashSky

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I want wall cling to return but not on up B, just on reg jump, so you could just cling with a canceled up b or a reg jump. and thats about it..
 

Darkgun

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I must confess that I was tempted to Google "blue furries" and then post the first few images in response to the final query of the initial post.

That gag aside, I would have to say that I don't really see Lucario needing many changes. Heck, getting wall cling back would be nice, but for recovery purposes, Lucario doesn't need it now if you have a spare charge (that is to say, ESC near a wall, then wall jump>BrASC until you reach ledge). I mean as it is Lucario can recover from some pretty ridiculous stuff. If I wanted something to be better... I am torn between a more reliable shield, which isn't too much of an issue now, really, and a slightly larger sweetspot for dtilt. I find it unfortunate that for a fair bit of time during each of the opponent's stocks, Lucario's reliable combo starters and approach options are limited to either a grab or the so-hard-it-would-put-steel-to-shame read usmash against a grounded opponent.

I hadn't really thought of color palettes or alt costumes, but since it was mentioned, I miss the Brawl green palette.
 

Risky

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He doesn't need help in the recovery department. Cling after Up-b was completely absurd, I think it's healthy that it's gone.

Getting stabbed by almost any attack immediately after shielding can be pretty frustrating. Just make it cover his whole body or be slightly bigger. I wouldn't mind Fair having a longer hitbox as that wouldn't really affect his combos, but buff his neutral game. The armor on Charged Aura Sphere isn't a bad idea either. At least that it beats out jabs.
 

bec

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ah yeah i totally forgot shield woes. i knew i had forgotten something.

shield buffs pls
 

Bane13

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  • Better shield
  • Reduced startup on ExtremeSpeed
  • Better hitstun for the aura canceled hit of ES in the air to allow more reliable followups
  • Slightly reduced startup on nair
  • More reliable sex kick properties on nair
  • Give aura bomb slightly increased priority
  • Nerf DT aura cancel dair recovery
That's my take on things balance-wise. His recovery is already good enough, so the wall cling is really unnecessary.

Unlimited aura in training mode would be very nice. The time spent committing suicide in training mode really adds up. Maybe unlimited aura in turbo mode, too. Most of the benefit characters get in that mode are available to Lucario in normal play, so in the current version, it really just feels like playing regular Lucario.
 

bec

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i was hoping for something like a Hold R To Start With Unlimited Aura thing, and have the aura glow red or something like that so its discernible from regular aura.

why do you want the DT dair recovery nerfed? just curious o:
 

KhanYe

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Lucario is fine. Just give dtilt more CC-breaking capabilities beyond the sweetspot and a bigger shield and he's golden. Mario's dair, if every hit connects, will shieldpoke you, even with max shield I'm pretty sure. We don't need startup/recovery reduced on every move lmao, OR wall-cling.
 

Bane13

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He already has enough recovery tools and mixups, in my opinion. DT > dair can be used from up high to get back on stage quickly, way above what your opponent would expect, and sometimes higher than they can reliably punish. It can also be used to deny gimps if you get hit low after you used your double jump.
 

bec

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the only things i want startup reduced on are up and down b because lucario gets hit out of them (especially up b) waaay too often. i'm not talking a huge drop in startup, just a bit :p
 
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KhanYe

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the only things i want startup reduced on are up and down b because lucario gets hit out of them (especially up b) waaay too often. i'm not talking a huge drop in startup, just a bit :p
eh i don't think it should be honestly. the aura cancel makes upB so safe, along with double team. double team is actually so quick. idk, i wouldn't mind buffs honestly, but it's an unnecessary buff imo.
 

Risky

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He already has enough recovery tools and mixups, in my opinion. DT > dair can be used from up high to get back on stage quickly, way above what your opponent would expect, and sometimes higher than they can reliably punish. It can also be used to deny gimps if you get hit low after you used your double jump.
DT -> Dair has no mechanics that need changing. It isn't OP it's just a thing. Many characters can recover high and it's difficult to punish, and they don't have to use precious aura charges to do so.
 

Bane13

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True. I don't necessarily want it nerfed, but if they nerfed anything about Lucario, I think it should be his recovery. If they decide to give him nothing but buffs, I'll be a happy Lucario main, but that's kind of asking for a lot.
 

GreenMunchkin

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Literally just add back wall-cling after up-b. That's it. He would be perfectly balanced at that point.
 

bec

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the buffs i listed are ones i feel would push him to where he needs to be, without making him OP. having to burn an aura charge to cancel up b only to be hit out of it in the split second before i can act gets really annoying really fast. granted i'm not a top player by any means, while most of the people i play with are, so this could be partly my bad too. the invincibility on the cancel part would open up SO much as far as approach options goes, as would sex kickiness on the fair (or nair), though he could still be hit out of the uncancelled part of up b. getting hit out of aura bomb by a jab is just downright silly as well. so is shield poking by a second fireball from mario.

as far as wall cling, that's just something i'd like but wouldn't beg for lol. it would just be nice
 

Giygacoal

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I really just feel like learning matchups at the moment. I'm pretty certain a bunch of characters are too tough on Lucario, but it might just be a matter of picking the right moves to make the MUs feel not as bad. I've been told by Frozen that sweetspot downtilt breaks crouch cancel at 0. Maybe there's some sufficient untapped potential.

Still, just off the top of my head, some ideas I have are
-Tweak upsmash animation so most of his body is higher. Right now, his arm actually pops significantly away from the rest of his body; it's not noticeable because he spins, but it's still too weird.
-Make his downsmash slightly less laggy at the beginning
-New victory animation (though his file is probably already close to the limit)

Unlimited aura in training mode would be very nice. The time spent committing suicide in training mode really adds up. Maybe unlimited aura in turbo mode, too. Most of the benefit characters get in that mode are available to Lucario in normal play, so in the current version, it really just feels like playing regular Lucario.
i was hoping for something like a Hold R To Start With Unlimited Aura thing, and have the aura glow red or something like that so its discernible from regular aura.
I agree 100%. For a while, I've been wanting a training mode version of Lucario so we can efficiently test out 2 charge combos and other techniques... as in, he would have a meter that automatically maximizes after ~15 seconds of being depleted to provide only plausible situations... but if you just want a super powerful Lucario for the jajajas that's cool too!
 
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Darkgun

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I um... I want to assume the no longer cancel on shield is pokin' fun. Especially since there is next to nothing that is safe or reliable on shield as Lucario. I won't really go into heavy detail, but the only safe link I've found between his moves is jab>dtilt, then, if spacing permits, and if Lucario is spacing for safety it won't, >BrASC. Heck, even the jab combo can be shield grabbed while it is still happening. It's almost free. In fact, according to the only frame data we've currently got, the closest to perfect that FP will link from another move's hit on shield is F-Smash, with it's +10 on shield, leaving a minimum 2 frame window for opponents to buffer a roll out.

Also, I feel like removing OHC on shield would too heavily focus Lucario's plays on grab setups, which considering his lack luster choices there....

With that in mind, I would love to hear your reasoning for such a drastic change.
 
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CyberZixx

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The way the character is designed now it would probably not work out but i'd rather his moves be overall safer and allow them to not cancel on shield. Maybe it would not work out because as you said he is designed with that ability in mind but i'd test it at least. Just don't like the fact that a character in the game nullifies shielding to the point that you don't use it vs then. it is the main defense option in the game and I find since lucario already is a character that already has so many unique options that shielding not being an option can push that too far.

Because of shield and CC some character must start things with grab. Look at Marth for instance. Got a fat sword but he wants to grab in neutral the vast majority of the time.
 

Darkgun

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I hadn't considered Marth from that perspective. But it is noted that he has a rather solid grab game, significant grab reach, and the spacing tools to make grabbing optimal. Also, which Lucario players have you been playing? Shielding against Lucario is scary, sure, but he can by no means nullify it. And if so, I would love to learn what they're doing.

The points you make are pretty valid, I would say, however such changes would be unbelievably drastic. If I were to guess, such a change would also mandate a change to Lucario's movement in some form, in addition to much more significant shield stun and shield damage (since both are fairly small). And that's just to make up for the loss of cancel on shield and short overall reach, which hurts his already difficult fight in neutral. With all that said, I'm sure there are more intricate ways of improving Lucario to make up for the loss of OHC on shield, and probably things I'm overlooking since I'm just not quite as educated on the the balance topic as a developer or a long standing professional, and frankly, if someone throws together a Lucario with this design, I would love to see how it would play.

Though... thinking realistically, changing the OHC mechanic to not trigger on shields may be a nightmare.
 

CyberZixx

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Yeah, to change that one thing seem you would have to tweak him over to work with that change. Frankly i'm not too well versed in Lucario but am trying to gain more knowledge about him. I thought you could not really do much in the time Lucario could cancel a action into command grab. Maybe I should be going for shield rolls, that may be quick enough.
 

bec

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yeah he has good shield pressure but nothing is inescapable. buffer rolls, grab or just do a quick OOS option and you'll likely get him. the safest thing i've tried (as far as approach) has been falling fair > FP or falling fair > ASC > grab
 

Alondite

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No OHC. It makes no sense that he has it, and even less sense that he's the only character to have it. It's a garbage mechanic.
 

bec

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lol

in that spirit take away all unique mechanics. make every character identical. no fun or variety allowed
 

Alondite

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No, take away all poorly designed mechanics that work against the natural forms of the gameplay systems. Special cases are poor design because they aren't intuitive; if you didn't tell somebody about Lucario's OHC, they likely wouldn't even know it exists because, again, it doesn't follow the natural forms of the game.
 

Giygacoal

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No, take away all poorly designed mechanics that work against the natural forms of the gameplay systems. Special cases are poor design because they aren't intuitive; if you didn't tell somebody about Lucario's OHC, they likely wouldn't even know it exists because, again, it doesn't follow the natural forms of the game.
>If you didn't tell somebody about a character's changes, they likely wouldn't know the changes.
 
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LOGIA666

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"Ideal 4.0"

I can't help but think that this was influenced from my "Your Ideal 4.0" thread.

I like. =)
 

Alondite

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>If you didn't tell somebody about a character's changes, they likely wouldn't know the changes.
But a well-designed change is going to be intuitively learned just by observing the game. You might not know the exact details of the change, but you will know that [x attack] has [x knockback] and is [x fast]. It doesn't make any sense to shoehorn in a mechanic from traditional fighters into a game that is very different from those games. Exactly what purpose does it serve, aside from making Lucario's design very unprofessional, "fan-game-ish," and inconsistent with the natural forms of the game?

Not only that, but cancels are poor design because they undermine the cool-down of moves, which is a factor of balance and functions in the natural ebb-and-flow of the gameplay.
 

ZaloMonkada

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On hit canceling is pretty intuitive, you're just sour. It's just as intuitive as peach with stitch faces, ice climbers desyncs and spacie shine (a frame 1 move that can be jump canceled, keep you in shield almost perfectly, but isn't actually ever used for its intended purpose: reflecting projectiles). The couple of times you encounter these abilities, you are like WTF, but if you have half a brain you figure out how they work approximately. IMHO DI and ASDI is more confusing, should we be removing them? NO because they provide great gameplay and a spectator doesn't have to worry about it. All they have to worry about is that the player did something good and they could visually see it.

I look at lucario as a mini space animal (outside of the neutral game). His shield pressure is crazy and takes intelligence if you aren't mindlessly spamming moves preemptively (I can get into that if you want but it'd be a huge wall of text), but not quite as powerful as shine. To make up, they give him a powerful combo game, mobility while chasing, and powerful recovery, but weak neutral game and an ideal weight to be combo'd. You can only land hits on your opponent if you out play them, but once you land the hit, you're in an advantageous situation if you're smart with your combos.

I have a thousand issues with Project M and game design, and even lucario design, but on hit canceling isn't one of them. You're pretty closed minded to think that a mechanic that has been implemented in many successful competitive fighting games is gimmicky and unprofessional, especially since the entire Smash Bros series was designed to be "unprofessional" and a party game.

Also, almost every tech undermines the cool-down of moves. You can lower the cooldown of shine by jumping, should this be removed? You can lower the cooldown of aerial animations when landing with L-canceling, should this be removed? There's float canceling, jump-canceling, meteor canceling, etc, and they're all great mechanics.
 

Giygacoal

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But a well-designed change is going to be intuitively learned just by observing the game. You might not know the exact details of the change, but you will know that [x attack] has [x knockback] and is [x fast]. It doesn't make any sense to shoehorn in a mechanic from traditional fighters into a game that is very different from those games. Exactly what purpose does it serve, aside from making Lucario's design very unprofessional, "fan-game-ish," and inconsistent with the natural forms of the game?

Not only that, but cancels are poor design because they undermine the cool-down of moves, which is a factor of balance and functions in the natural ebb-and-flow of the gameplay.
>Exactly what purpose does it serve, aside from making Lucario's design very unprofessional, "fan-game-ish," and inconsistent with the natural forms of the game?
That's a logical fallacy. Your question already assumes Lucario's design is unprofessional as a given. As for the "inconsistency", it makes Lucario unique in a way that actually fits the character.

>Not only that, but cancels are poor design because they undermine the cool-down of moves, which is a factor of balance and functions in the natural ebb-and-flow of the gameplay.
Incorrect. Lucario's playstyle is balanced with such factors typical to Smash Bros. in mind. Though he's excellent at comboing, his neutral game is bad (to the point that he basically needs charges to semi-safely approach), his regular Aura Sphere is one of the worst projectiles in the game, his jab strings can be punished easily at lower percents with crouch canceling, and his combos are still susceptible to Smash DI escapes at too high percents. His moves generally have short range. His shield is also very lacking, so he's not defensively excellent either. In other words, Lucario is a demon up close, but if you can keep him out, he will stay out (or at least take several projectile hits). Also his recovery is predictable and usually requires charges for safety.
 
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Bane13

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But a well-designed change is going to be intuitively learned just by observing the game. You might not know the exact details of the change, but you will know that [x attack] has [x knockback] and is [x fast]. It doesn't make any sense to shoehorn in a mechanic from traditional fighters into a game that is very different from those games. Exactly what purpose does it serve, aside from making Lucario's design very unprofessional, "fan-game-ish," and inconsistent with the natural forms of the game?

Not only that, but cancels are poor design because they undermine the cool-down of moves, which is a factor of balance and functions in the natural ebb-and-flow of the gameplay.
So what you're saying is that every other fighting game is an unintuitive mess, and the cancelling mechanic sucks in general...

As a counterpoint, I'd just like to say that I could not learn this game by watching people play. I started playing smash about 4 months ago, and my friend had to explain absolutely everything to me. In my eyes, it looked like he was teleporting across platforms. "How the hell is he sliding like that? Why is he able to act out of aerials faster than I am?" There's no way someone would think to press shield on landing with an aerial to reduce recovery time without being told or looking it up. This whole game is full of counter-intuitive ideas.
 

bec

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"Ideal 4.0"

I can't help but think that this was influenced from my "Your Ideal 4.0" thread.

I like. =)
i cant say it was, i never saw your thread :o sorry friend! they are good threads to hash out ideas on for sure


also i'm gonna let flowteau and bane13 handle the salty dude, y'all have got words better than i do lol. all i want to say is that PM is a game that allows for deviance from the norm and unique playstyles within characters and if it didnt, i wouldnt want to play
 

Alondite

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On hit canceling is pretty intuitive, you're just sour. It's just as intuitive as peach with stitch faces, ice climbers desyncs and spacie shine (a frame 1 move that can be jump canceled, keep you in shield almost perfectly, but isn't actually ever used for its intended purpose: reflecting projectiles). The couple of times you encounter these abilities, you are like WTF, but if you have half a brain you figure out how they work approximately. IMHO DI and ASDI is more confusing, should we be removing them? NO because they provide great gameplay and a spectator doesn't have to worry about it. All they have to worry about is that the player did something good and they could visually see it.

I look at lucario as a mini space animal (outside of the neutral game). His shield pressure is crazy and takes intelligence if you aren't mindlessly spamming moves preemptively (I can get into that if you want but it'd be a huge wall of text), but not quite as powerful as shine. To make up, they give him a powerful combo game, mobility while chasing, and powerful recovery, but weak neutral game and an ideal weight to be combo'd. You can only land hits on your opponent if you out play them, but once you land the hit, you're in an advantageous situation if you're smart with your combos.

I have a thousand issues with Project M and game design, and even lucario design, but on hit canceling isn't one of them. You're pretty closed minded to think that a mechanic that has been implemented in many successful competitive fighting games is gimmicky and unprofessional, especially since the entire Smash Bros series was designed to be "unprofessional" and a party game.

Also, almost every tech undermines the cool-down of moves. You can lower the cooldown of shine by jumping, should this be removed? You can lower the cooldown of aerial animations when landing with L-canceling, should this be removed? There's float canceling, jump-canceling, meteor canceling, etc, and they're all great mechanics.
It's not as intuitive as stitch faces. When you pull a stitch, it is obviously different in appearance, as well as damage and knockback. It's intuitively understood. De-syncs are not particularly intuitive, but given that the Climbers can operate separately, trying to control each of them individually is a concept that players will consider. As for the shine, its a sort of energy field projecting around the character. It reflects projectiles, so there's no reason to think that it can't be used to at least push opponents away. OHC isn't something you're going to simply learn from playing the game, because the mere act of executing the OHC is foreign to the natural forms of the system, and has little chance of being input. I've watched dozens of players play PM Lucario without knowing about OHC, and none of them even executed it by accident.

Other fighting games are not Smash. They almost require OHC to provide sufficient rewards for landing a hit, whereas Smash does not. Secondly, a "professional" game isn't one that is serious and competitive, it's one that shows that it was developed by a group of talented, professional video game developers.

Jumping out of shine is a designed element that makes logical sense. Why should the spacies not be able to jump out of shine? They are stationary and not engaged in any other action. It's also likely that it was designed to limit potential instances of shine trapping. DI is as intuitive as mechanics get. Since Super Mario Bros we've been taught that we can influence out aerial motion by inputting movement commands. It makes logical sense: when you want to float away from the opponent, hold the stick away from them. It's something that every Smash player understands on some level, even if they don't know the extent of its uses.

L-canceling is another garbage mechanic that serves no actual purpose. Why not just design moves with less landing lag? The only reason L-canceling is manual in PM is because it artificially inflates APM s players can profess how skilled they are and to serve as ammo when supporting Smash as a serious competitive fighting game.

Meteor canceling is a designed element used to limit the effectiveness of meteors. Spikes are powerful, but don't guarantee death off-stage like a meteor would if it couldn't be canceled. Like jumping out of shine, it's a necessary evil. Float canceling is bad for the same reason that L-canceling is. Why should Peach suffer no lag when landing from a float? Jump canceling at least makes a little bit more sense, because the character hasn't yet left the ground, but like any canceling move, it disrupts the natural ebb and flow of the interplay by negating counters.

>Exactly what purpose does it serve, aside from making Lucario's design very unprofessional, "fan-game-ish," and inconsistent with the natural forms of the game?
That's a logical fallacy. Your question already assumes Lucario's design is unprofessional as a given. As for the "inconsistency", it makes Lucario unique in a way that actually fits the character.

>Not only that, but cancels are poor design because they undermine the cool-down of moves, which is a factor of balance and functions in the natural ebb-and-flow of the gameplay.
Incorrect. Lucario's playstyle is balanced with such factors typical to Smash Bros. in mind. Though he's excellent at comboing, his neutral game is bad (to the point that he basically needs charges to semi-safely approach), his regular Aura Sphere is one of the worst projectiles in the game, his jab strings can be punished easily at lower percents with crouch canceling, and his combos are still susceptible to Smash DI escapes at too high percents. His moves generally have short range. His shield is also very lacking, so he's not defensively excellent either. In other words, Lucario is a demon up close, but if you can keep him out, he will stay out (or at least take several projectile hits). Also his recovery is predictable and usually requires charges for safety.
What competent professional game developer would throw their entire design core out for one character, and instead build that character as an outlying special case? Concrete and organic interaction is the most core design element of Nintendo's games that influences every single facet of their games. OHC is abstract and actually works against the natural forms of the game; it absolutely is unprofessional.

Other characters manage to be unique without having a special case mechanic, so why does Lucario need one? Why is he the only one to have it, or anything like it?

So basically, in order to balance the abstract OHC mechanic, you need to cripple the concrete, core functions of the system. Brilliant design. That's like saying you're going to remove the wheels on a car to minimize weight. Combos in Smash Bros work as a function of gravity, which is different from other fighters which do not have the same dynamic gravity and movement that Smash Bros does.

So what you're saying is that every other fighting game is an unintuitive mess, and the cancelling mechanic sucks in general...

As a counterpoint, I'd just like to say that I could not learn this game by watching people play. I started playing smash about 4 months ago, and my friend had to explain absolutely everything to me. In my eyes, it looked like he was teleporting across platforms. "How the hell is he sliding like that? Why is he able to act out of aerials faster than I am?" There's no way someone would think to press shield on landing with an aerial to reduce recovery time without being told or looking it up. This whole game is full of counter-intuitive ideas.
I didn't mention anything about learning from watching people play. Games are supposed to teach you their rules and mechanics through visual feedback, and the good ones do it without even telling you. How many people, typically casual gamers, think that pushing the jump button harder in Mario makes him jump higher? I can say that almost every single casual player I've ever seen play Mario does this. They don't know that it's actually holding the button that is making him jump farther, they just know that they have to put more "omph" into it, which works because pushing a button harder is linked to holding it longer. That is intuitive design.

Secondly, the reason you had no idea is because those mechanics are all largely unintuitive and don't make sense based on the forms of the game. The game would be far better with more concrete and intuitive design.
 

Giygacoal

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@ Alondite Alondite I highly disagree with your opinion. I'll have a detailed response once I get home and write it... unless Frozen and/or Vanguard beats me to it.
 

Giygacoal

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Alright, I'm ready.

>So basically, in order to balance the abstract OHC mechanic, you need to cripple the concrete, core functions of the system.
First of all, you have COMPLETELY misunderstood my explanation for how Lucario is balanced. Let me explain this again. The core functions aren't being crippled BY Lucario; the core functions ARE crippling Lucario. If it weren't for Smash DI, crouch canceling, and the like, Lucario probably would be overpowered. He's an unorthodox character than manages to be kept in check in thanks to the game's universal mechanics, as well as the traits the other characters possess.

>Other characters manage to be unique without having a special case mechanic, so why does Lucario need one? Why is he the only one to have it, or anything like it?
Mario can cancel upB into a wall jump and then upB again.
Peach can float.
Jigglypuff and Snake can put opponents to sleep.
Bowser's sideB is a command grab.
Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's sideBs don't grab ledges in Melee.
Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's downBs refresh midair jump.
Yoshi has armor on midair jump and a shield that doesn't shrink.
Yoshi doesn't have a third jump.
Snake's upsmash is a projectile that goes farther and faster given charge, but doesn't deal more damage (at least not in Brawl).
Snake's downsmash is a mine.
ROB's upB in Brawl is based on a fuel system instead of single use to special fall.
Several characters have more than one midair jump.
Three characters can glide.
Wario's fart charges automatically and takes two minutes to fully charge.
Mr. Game and Watch's side B has a random effect.
PM Wario's sideB, unlike Melee's sideB dashes, doesn't go into special fall if it's started on the ground.
PM Pit can glide twice in a single airtime if the first glide is started form the ground.
PM Ivysaur can heal.
PM Wolf's sideB doesn't go into special fall if it's sweetspotted.
OLIMAR.

The point is that in both the official Smash games and in Project M, there's lots of idiosyncratic mechanics and other character traits. We have seen characters flip the script many times before, and to call being different "unprofessional" or "garbage" is arrogant. Project M simply continued the "tradition" of adding new stuff.

>OHC isn't something you're going to simply learn from playing the game, because the mere act of executing the OHC is foreign to the natural forms of the system, and has little chance of being input.
>I've watched dozens of players play PM Lucario without knowing about OHC, and none of them even executed it by accident.
>Games are supposed to teach you their rules and mechanics through visual feedback, and the good ones do it without even telling you. How many people, typically casual gamers, think that pushing the jump button harder in Mario makes him jump higher? I can say that almost every single casual player I've ever seen play Mario does this. They don't know that it's actually holding the button that is making him jump farther, they just know that they have to put more "omph" into it, which works because pushing a button harder is linked to holding it longer. That is intuitive design.

This is getting into very subjective territory. Yes, visual feedback is important so that the hitboxes and such are fairly conveyed, but there's nothing inherently bad about not being able to figure out ALL the controls on a player's very first try. Why should the quality of the design be judged by how UNINFORMED people guess? Feedback from people that don't know what they're doing is mostly useless because there isn't even a frame of reference. With that said, Lucario's design makes sense because it was widely advertised to be a reference to traditional fighters... and it isn't even an Easter egg. It claimed to be Smash Bros. mechanics combined with traditional fighter mechanics, and that's exactly what we were given.

>L-canceling is another garbage mechanic that serves no actual purpose. Why not just design moves with less landing lag?
Agreed, except for the word "another".
>The only reason L-canceling is manual in PM is because it artificially inflates APM s players can profess how skilled they are and to serve as ammo when supporting Smash as a serious competitive fighting game.
False. The true reason L-canceling is still in PM is "because Melee".

>Jumping out of shine is a designed element that makes logical sense. Why should the spacies not be able to jump out of shine? They are stationary and not engaged in any other action.
Are you even on your own side?

>DI is as intuitive as mechanics get. Since Super Mario Bros we've been taught that we can influence out aerial motion by inputting movement commands. It makes logical sense: when you want to float away from the opponent, hold the stick away from them. It's something that every Smash player understands on some level, even if they don't know the extent of its uses.
That's not DI. That's Smash DI (which isn't really DI; the community just lumped the terminology together even though the two have very little in common). DI (sometimes referred to as Trajectory DI for disambiguation) is used to influence the angle of trajectory. Holding perpendicular provides the max, which is (if I recall correctly) 18 degrees of a difference. The goal is to make the character launch towards the upper corners of the screen, which will provide the most space to not leave the boundaries. Is that intuitive? Unless the player applies geometry on a regular basis, I doubt it. Also I recommend you use the phrase "logical sense" sparingly. In real life, a plumber without a thruster of some sort can't just change direction in midair.
 
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Alondite

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Messages
242
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Syracuse, New York
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Exaccus
>First of all, you have COMPLETELY misunderstood my explanation for how Lucario is balanced. Let me explain this again. The core functions aren't being crippled BY Lucario; the core functions ARE crippling Lucario. If it weren't for Smash DI, crouch canceling, and the like, Lucario probably would be overpowered. He's an unorthodox character than manages to be kept in check in thanks to the game's universal mechanics, as well as the traits the other characters possess.

It's not about balancing the mechanic, it's that the mechanic works against the natural forms of the game. In order to balance Lucario's OHC, you need to cripple his concrete design elements. Sacrificing concrete elements for abstract elements is rarely, if ever, good design. He's not an "unorthodox" character, he's a character whose design simple does not belong in the Smash environment because the game functions very little like traditional fighters.

>Mario can cancel upB into a wall jump and then upB again.
Peach can float.
Jigglypuff and Snake can put opponents to sleep.
Bowser's sideB is a command grab.
Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's sideBs don't grab ledges in Melee.
Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's downBs refresh midair jump.
Yoshi has armor on midair jump and a shield that doesn't shrink.
Yoshi doesn't have a third jump.
Snake's upsmash is a projectile that goes farther and faster given charge, but doesn't deal more damage (at least not in Brawl).
Snake's downsmash is a mine.
ROB's upB in Brawl is based on a fuel system instead of single use to special fall.
Several characters have more than one midair jump.
Three characters can glide.
Wario's fart charges automatically and takes two minutes to fully charge.
Mr. Game and Watch's side B has a random effect.
PM Wario's sideB, unlike Melee's sideB dashes, doesn't go into special fall if it's started on the ground.
PM Pit can glide twice in a single airtime if the first glide is started form the ground.
PM Ivysaur can heal.
PM Wolf's sideB doesn't go into special fall if it's sweetspotted.
OLIMAR.

Mario's upB cancel is poor design, but wall-jumping is concrete interaction.
Peach's float is a better example of a unique element that is functionally consistent within the system. It doesn't make logical sense in the real world, but in Mario/Smash fiction it's not at all out of place, and is intuitively executed.
Sing is a move in Pokemon that puts people to sleep. That's true to fiction. Not only that, but sing has visible area of effect, which is concrete. Snake's darts make logical sense because tranquilizers are used to knock people out, or otherwise disable them.

Bowser's >B is concrete because we visually see him grab the opponent. Plus grabs exist in Smash, so it's true to form.
CF and Ganon's >B not grabbing ledges could go either way. It makes sense that they don't grab the ledge because they are actively punching downward, but it wouldn't be counter-intuitive for them to grab the ledge. Their vB refreshing jumps doesn't make much sense, and it's not particularly intuitive. However, it doesn't compromise the function of any of their moves, so it's really not an issue.

Yoshi's armor doesn't make sense an likely only exists for balance. However, you could say that Yoshi is exerting a significant enough force to power through attacks. He is propelling his whole body by fluttering his feet, after all. His shield is unique, but eggs are a common theme for Yoshi. Enclosing himself in one to block attacks might seem odd, but it's true to fiction and is still concrete. The fact that the shield doesn't shrink makes sense too; why would an eggshell shrink? As for not having a third jump...how would he? The egg throw could provide some upward motion, but certainly not enough to act as a proper recovery. It's a completely concrete mechanic.

Snake's upsmash is unique, but like many of your other examples, is still concrete. It functions like we would expect a mortar to function, for the most part. The fact that it shoots higher when charged doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to consider that the charge might give him time to optimize his aim for better distance. Yes, the trajectory is always straight up, but it's not that much of a stretch. The fact that it doesn't do more damage makes sense too; why would shooting a mortar farther make the explosion more powerful? His downsmash, while being unique, still plants a physical object onto the field that explodes when approached, very much like a real mine does. Setting explosives is also true to the forms of the game (motion bomb, gooey bomb, etc.)

ROB's ^B, despite the fact that you can't tell how much fuel he has, is still concrete. Propulsion systems require a fuel source of some kind, and fuel is consumed during the process. The mechanic would be better if there was a visual representation, like if his jet flames got smaller as he flew.

Multiple midair jumps make sense. Midair jumps in general exist in Smash fiction, so it's not difficult to accept that characters can use their wings or inflate themselves like a balloon to jump again. Gliding falls into this category as well, and executing a glide is intuitive.

Wario's fart is a great mechanic. It's a charge and a timer that punctuates negative space, because even when you're not doing anything, it's still charging. And gas build up, that's where farts come from in the first place, so the fact that it charges isn't a problem. There's also a clear visual indication of when it is charged, and the power and appearance of the move even changes logically based on charge. Not only that, but it also propels him upward, which is concrete if you consider that he's farting with enough force to propel himself. His PM >B special fail conditions are a bit arbitrary, but if we consider that a character can jump in midair, and that recovery moves exhaust the character, we can consider his aerial >B to be a midair jump, while his grounded >B being no different from simply running off the stage.

G&W's >B is just random. Random elements exist all over in Smash, so it's true to form. The effect tied to each number is arbitrary and abstract, but we can expect higher numbers to yield more powerful effects.

Ivysaur's mechanics make sense intuitively as well. Plants use sunlight for growth and repair, so healing in the same manner makes perfect sense. Other characters have moves that can heal as well, and there are healing items, also.

PM Wolf is a product of poor design. The fact that a sweetspotted >B doesn't go into special fall isn't intuitive, and doesn't fit the form of the game.

Olimar is one of the most well-designed characters in the game. He fights using Pikmin in an entirely concrete manner, throwing them and swinging them through space. The Pikmin can also be hit by attacks, and will die like they do in the Pikmin games. There are multiple characters who attack with objects not part of their body, so I don't see what the problem with Olimar is.

>That's not DI. That's Smash DI (which isn't really DI; the community just lumped the terminology together even though the two have very little in common). DI (sometimes referred to as Trajectory DI for disambiguation) is used to influence the angle of trajectory. Holding perpendicular provides the max, which is (if I recall correctly) 18 degrees of a difference. The goal is to make the character launch towards the upper corners of the screen, which will provide the most space to not leave the boundaries. Is that intuitive? Unless the player applies geometry on a regular basis, I doubt it. Also I recommend you use the phrase "logical sense" sparingly. In real life, a plumber without a thruster of some sort can't just change direction in midair.
I understand how DI works. Holding the stick away from an opponent is going to alter the trajectory of any upward attack that would keep you in combo range, which is going to be the natural instinct for players because it makes sense. It's like how people twist the controller around when they play a racing game, even though it doesn't do anything; it's simply instinct. Most players are unlikely to understand the specifics of survival DI, but that doesn't mean that DI as a whole isn't an intuitive mechanic.
 

Giygacoal

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
1,651
Wall of text
First of all, you've made it clear your judgment is completely arbitrary. You're just justifying the examples that you like and ignoring what's good about Lucario's mechanics. Here, let me show you: "Lucario's design makes sense because Lucario is a fast fighting type in the Pokémon canon, and the aura sphere already looks like a hadouken." See? Same thing. In any case, it doesn't matter how NICELY you put every example. The point is that the mechanics are UNIQUE. Whether they make sense has nothing to do with my point. All it really boils down to is subjective crap.

>It's not about balancing the mechanic, it's that the mechanic works against the natural forms of the game. In order to balance Lucario's OHC, you need to cripple his concrete design elements. Sacrificing concrete elements for abstract elements is rarely, if ever, good design.
You simply do not understand the concept of good balance, then. All you're suggesting is that if a character needs balance checks, then it's not well-designed. That is complete rubbish and against the design philosophy of Project M. PM thrives on asymmetric balance, meaning the metagame is primarily matchup-based, so characters fit together with their own niches to make an overall balanced product. If you can't understand something as simple as that, maybe PM is too deep for you. There's no "sacrificing" elements involved. It's just that Lucario has a solid combo game, and some characters have good anti-pressure tools (such as Peach's crouch cancel down-smash). Overall, though, Lucario's system proved to be both faithful to traditional fighter elements and balanced with PM's metagame.
>He's not an "unorthodox" character, he's a character whose design simple does not belong in the Smash environment because the game functions very little like traditional fighters.
Lucario is a prime example of an unorthodox character. Snake is an unorthodox character because he's from a game series that takes place in a real world, yet he's amongst bright and colorful or magical Nintendo characters... but is he unorthodox in the world of 3D shooters? Of course not. It's all about perspective.
>I understand how DI works. Holding the stick away from an opponent is going to alter the trajectory of any upward attack that would keep you in combo range, which is going to be the natural instinct for players because it makes sense. It's like how people twist the controller around when they play a racing game, even though it doesn't do anything; it's simply instinct. Most players are unlikely to understand the specifics of survival DI, but that doesn't mean that DI as a whole isn't an intuitive mechanic.
No. If you hold the control stick in the same direction as the knockback, there will be no change in trajectory. Also, you've completely ignored my point that influencing to launch towards the corners is not intuitive to anyone except people who know from geometry that the corners give the most living space.

It's a good thing people as narrow-minded as you aren't designing characters for Smash Bros.

Edit: >PM Wolf is a product of poor design. The fact that a sweetspotted >B doesn't go into special fall isn't intuitive, and doesn't fit the form of the game.
Just look at this, everyone.
 
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