what is your ideal "4.0" lucario?

[ViewtifulHoe242]

don't mind me i just wish grounded double team looked a little bit more like this.

nerf/buff wise i think he's in the goldilocks zone, between 2.1 and 2.6b

 

[ZaloMonkada]

Wow, so many ad homonym attacks in this thread. People don't know how to be civil lol.

Alondite, I disagree with some of your specific examples (wolf up-b in particular, some of your other stuff seems a bit of a stretch too, but I get your point), but I agree with your ideas. Moves should be intuitive in what they do so both the player and spectator can understand what is happening. In addition, they should fit with the mechanics of the game. I definitely agree with this, but I think you're being a bit too restrictive (but this is a personal opinion).

I think you're over thinking lucario TBH. Hit canceling is very intuitive for him after several games. The premise is weak attacks always cancel into stronger ones. Most people I play with recognize that much about the character as quickly as they understand how shining works or how out of shield options work, but maybe the people I play with are super geniuses or something. The other thing I think you're over thinking is how lucario's combos ignore smash bros gravity. If they did, I would agree it was a bad mechanic, but they don't. You can DI every hit to get away from the attack, and after around 40% on most characters, attacks don't string together outside of jab/dash -> x or aerial -> fp. After around 40% you have to chase using up-b or down-b. Lucario attacks are similar to fox shine, where you can drill into shine, or waveshine into upsmash to start combos. The chaining doesn't actually ignore gravity, it's just a two part attack often that starts a combo and doesn't ignore any smash mechanics.

That being said, I agree with you completely about l-canceling and mostly about float canceling. It just seems that some of your explanations are a bit arbitrary, no offense meant.

 

[Giygacoal]

@ Z ZaloMonkada
An ad hominem is dismissing the argument because of the person. I was saying what's wrong with the argument, and then separately saying what's wrong with the person's attitude. Ad hominem is used to avoid engaging in a legitimate case, which isn't my intention.

I see how the section with my reply about balancing could be seen as one, but AH is ignoring the argument completely and just attacking the opponent, not simply saying "if you think this, you're wrong" if an explanation is provided.

 

[ZaloMonkada]

Pretty sure that calling someone narrow minded and therefore should never design video games is ad hominem. Either way, you were being an ass hole and now you're arguing semantics (like an ass hole).

 

[bec]

and here i just wanted this to be a nice thread with lucario players discussing nerfs/buffs

emphasis on lucario players :T (edit: implying that alondite is not a lucario player as far as i know)

 

[Giygacoal]

Pretty sure that calling someone narrow minded and therefore should never design video games is ad hominem. Either way, you were being an *** hole and now you're arguing semantics (like an *** hole).

But that isn't what I said. I said it's good that he's not designing the characters for this game. If he wants to design video games, that's completely fine. I didn't say he should "never" design games. Maybe I was being an a-hole. However, what I said at the end is my opinion, not an argument. Ad hominem is about argument vs. people. There's a difference between an ad hominem and a regular insult.

Edit: I wouldn't still be arguing semantics if you didn't paraphrase me with such a drastically worse implication attached.

Edit: To elaborate further, I was upset because he calls Wolf and such poor design. That doesn't mean I don't think he's capable of making something good on his own.

 

[Alondite]

>First of all, you've made it clear your judgment is completely arbitrary. You're just justifying the examples that you like and ignoring what's good about Lucario's mechanics. Here, let me show you: "Lucario's design makes sense because Lucario is a fast fighting type in the Pokémon canon, and the aura sphere already looks like a hadouken." See? Same thing.

Not at all. At no point in Pokemon or Smash Bros does landing an attack allow you to cancel the lag/turn penalty and immediately follow it up with another attack. Smash Bros is designed with an unrelenting devotion to clean design, clear communication, and form-fits-function. A key factor to all three of those design elements is concrete, organic interaction. OHC is the exact opposite of that, it's abstract, and unclean design. The game plays on space and gravity dynamics rather than arbitrary abstract counters. There's nothing good about it; it's a gimmick mechanic that undermines concrete design and limits gameplay potential.

>You simply do not understand the concept of good balance, then. All you're suggesting is that if a character needs balance checks, then it's not well-designed. That is complete rubbish and against the design philosophy of Project M.
Hold on, let me quote the line that was responding to:

>It's not about balancing the mechanic, it's that the mechanic works against the natural forms of the game. In order to balance Lucario's OHC, you need to cripple his concrete design elements. Sacrificing concrete elements for abstract elements is rarely, if ever, good design.

Here, let me do it again:

>It's not about balancing the mechanic, it's that the mechanic works against the natural forms of the game. In order to balance Lucario's OHC, you need to cripple his concrete design elements. Sacrificing concrete elements for abstract elements is rarely, if ever, good design.

OHC is a poor mechanic because it introduces abstraction by sacrificing the concrete. It has, as I've said before, nothing to do with balance. Do you know what operates as a great check and balancing factor? ENDLAG. Endlag for attacks, for landing aerials, for everything. Canceling endlag eliminates the "pull" aspect of gameplay, which is the "push/pull" between game elements. Interplay is core of gameplay, and limiting push/pull chains of counters limits gameplay.

> If you can't understand something as simple as that, maybe PM is too deep for you.
Ironic, considering that OHC actually robs the system of depth by limiting interplay potential.

>There's no "sacrificing" elements involved.

Really? So what happens to the endlag of attacks canceled on-hit?

>Lucario is a prime example of an unorthodox character. Snake is an unorthodox character because he's from a game series that takes place in a real world, yet he's amongst bright and colorful or magical Nintendo characters... but is he unorthodox in the world of 3D shooters? Of course not. It's all about perspective.

Fiction and function are not the same. Snake's function is entirely true to the natural forms of Smash Bros, as well as the Metal Gear fiction. PM Lucario is neither true to Pokemon fiction, nor the natural forms of Smash Bros.

>No. If you hold the control stick in the same direction as the knockback, there will be no change in trajectory. Also, you've completely ignored my point that influencing to launch towards the corners is not intuitive to anyone except people who know from geometry that the corners give the most living space.

Hold on, I've more quoting to do.
" Holding the stick away from an opponent is going to alter the trajectory of any upward attack that would keep you in combo range"

"Most players are unlikely to understand the specifics of survival DI, but that doesn't mean that DI as a whole isn't an intuitive mechanic."

Did you catch it that time, or do I have to quote it again.

>It's a good thing people as narrow-minded as you aren't designing characters for Smash Bros.

It's a good thing people with as poor design sensibilities as yourself aren't designing characters for Smash Bros. There's a difference between being close-minded and having some consideration to design and function, very much like there is a difference between being open-minded and forgoing any sort of consideration for how the elements function within the system.

 

[Giygacoal]

@ Alondite
>Not at all. At no point in Pokemon or Smash Bros does landing an attack allow you to cancel the lag/turn penalty and immediately follow it up with another attack. Smash Bros is designed with an unrelenting devotion to clean design, clear communication, and form-fits-function. A key factor to all three of those design elements is concrete, organic interaction. OHC is the exact opposite of that, it's abstract, and unclean design. The game plays on space and gravity dynamics rather than arbitrary abstract counters. There's nothing good about it; it's a gimmick mechanic that undermines concrete design and limits gameplay potential.
OHC doesn't exist in Pokémon, but the essence of Lucario does. Lucario is very akin to Ryu aesthetically, so the mechanic isn't as shoehorned in as you seem to think. It's new, and it's different, but by fitting Lucario I mean it fits the character itself complementary to the canon (which is the fighting type and the aura hadouken). OHC is not abstract. In fact, it's more linear than what Smash Bros. is usually like. Lucario can do a lot of the same combos on many characters. That sounds concrete to me. It does not limit game potential. There's some bread and butter stuff, but it still requires adjustment to match the particular situation, and the charge system allows him to do many things other characters' combo systems don't allow.

>OHC is a poor mechanic because it introduces abstraction by sacrificing the concrete. It has, as I've said before, nothing to do with balance.
Alright, please explain to me what you mean by "abstract" and "abstraction". The magic series seems like the exact opposite of abstract. There's something I'm being left out on.
>Do you know what operates as a great check and balancing factor? ENDLAG. Endlag for attacks, for landing aerials, for everything. Canceling endlag eliminates the "pull" aspect of gameplay, which is the "push/pull" between game elements. Interplay is core of gameplay, and limiting push/pull chains of counters limits gameplay.
That's the tried and true method for Smash, but Lucario is something different... and that doesn't necessarily mean he's poorly-designed. He just makes players think in a way that's different but so far not proven to be too extreme. Much of his playstyle feels like one big jab string. His hits are quantity over quality. Sure, his combos are flashy, but he still has to play footsies and get the positional advantage like any other character. Also, I don't agree with that bit of slippery slope. There's no limiting of the push/pull you're describing; Lucario is only one character in the vast roster, so if anything I think he's providing more diversity, and not overstating his welcome.
>Ironic, considering that OHC actually robs the system of depth by limiting interplay potential.
Please explain how interplay potential is robbed by a character that has combos that may or may not work like any other character's combos.

>Really? So what happens to the endlag of attacks canceled on-hit?
At the time I thought you were referring to how he interacts with crouch cancel/smash di/etc.

>Fiction and function are not the same. Snake's function is entirely true to the natural forms of Smash Bros, as well as the Metal Gear fiction. PM Lucario is neither true to Pokemon fiction, nor the natural forms of Smash Bros.
I never said the two were the same. I'm just saying Lucario is most definitely an unorthodox character. Whether he's faithful to his Pokémon proper incarnations is irrelevant. I was making the point that Lucario is unorthodox, and that a character like Snake is also unorthodox.
>Did you catch it that time, or do I have to quote it again.
No, I honestly don't understand. What you consider intuitive ranges from things I can comprehend to arbitrary or too reliant on subjectivity in justification.
>It's a good thing people with as poor design sensibilities as yourself aren't designing characters for Smash Bros.
How could you conclude I have poor design sensibilities? I explained to the best of my ability how Lucario works well despite being very different, and I'm just relaying information I've picked up over several discussions from players more knowledgeable as myself. I don't have poor design sensibilities. I think your comment on the uniqueness of Wolf's side b is enough explanation for why I think you're being close-minded, so what's your reason for thinking I'm insensible? I'm just sticking up for a character that has been in development for years with only minor complaining across the community.

>There's a difference between being close-minded and having some consideration to design and function, very much like there is a difference between being open-minded and forgoing any sort of consideration for how the elements function within the system.
I'm not saying it's bad to question the design choices. I'm saying it's close minded to ask questions specifically with the premises that the mechanics are poor design.

 

[bec]

I'd like to point out that, uncancelled, the end lag on most of lucarios moves is rather long so OHC/ASC is essential to him as he is designed. also, asc is a fairly advanced tech for a very technical character so its not like lucario is easy mode either.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

lol that argument is like a dog chasing its own tail

 

[Zoa]

-Add wall cling out of DJ only. Not more of it out of ES. Way too crazy. Lets Lucario climb stages at his own pace.

-Revert AS back to its vanilla Brawl function. Longer charge time, straight line, actual travel speed, and less end lag. Currently it is little more than a vastly inferior Shadow Ball. Longer charge time will help with ASC, and the other functions will give Lucario another useful tool to aid his neutral game.

-Buff his shield size. Lucario is a punish character with almost no OoS options, has short reach, and a lacking neutral game. Buffing his shield size would be extremely beneficial as his dodges flat out suck, and he frankly needs some more ways to handle pressure as a punish character with a lacking neutral game.

 

[Risky]

I've only played P:M Lucario and I'm pretty happy with this iteration of AS. If it's charged it has a lot of durability and knockback, while still dealing 9% with no charge. The slow speed and trajectory make it punishes on spot dodges and rolls, often covering multiple options by itself.

If you ASC correctly it will not charge at all.

 

[Giygacoal]

@ Zoa @ Risky
Just so you guys know this game's Aura Sphere's fifth level can only be accessed if you release the ball right before it finishes charging. In Brawl, the fifth level wasn't hidden. Not saying AS doesn't deserve improvements. Just something to consider when trying to get the most from it.

 

[TheFoolishPhilosopher]

Yeah, to change that one thing seem you would have to tweak him over to work with that change. Frankly i'm not too well versed in Lucario but am trying to gain more knowledge about him. I thought you could not really do much in the time Lucario could cancel a action into command grab. Maybe I should be going for shield rolls, that may be quick enough.

This is silly. You may as well ask to change the fact that you can 1-2-3 jab with Falcon. It's the exact same amount of time between hits. Lucario's shield pressure is extremely weak to shieldgrabs. If someone is just beating down on your shield, shieldgrab them. If someone is dashattack-canceling into a grab, then spotdodge. In any case, there is enough visual cue that it's not that hard. Were this to happen, Lucario would have no options to pressure a shield besides just walking up and grabbing.

As far as what I want from 4.0 Lucario? No changes. I'm 100% happy with his kit and where he is. That might change within a couple of months once the meta has settled but I don't know enough yet to give him buffs. In fact I might be against buffs; every time Lucario gets the slightest buff people will come to this board and constantly post about how he needs massive over-compensating nerfs.

 

[Zoa]

Appreciate the reminder, Flowteau. I read about that, but honestly never put it into practice as I almost never use charged AS outside of edgeguarding or forcing approaches.

@ Risky

I find it more of a hinderance. Luc's combination of bad approach options, inability to handle pressure, and lack of a consistent pressure tool to aid his short reach really do a number on him. Luc really needs a consistent option to aid his approach as aura charge approaches can be really well defended against. Each come from the exact same distance, so it's not hard to stop an approach of his.

 

[TheFoolishPhilosopher]

First of all, you've made it clear your judgment is completely arbitrary. You're just justifying the examples that you like and ignoring what's good about Lucario's mechanics. Here, let me show you: "Lucario's design makes sense because Lucario is a fast fighting type in the Pokémon canon, and the aura sphere already looks like a hadouken." See? Same thing. In any case, it doesn't matter how NICELY you put every example. The point is that the mechanics are UNIQUE. Whether they make sense has nothing to do with my point. All it really boils down to is subjective crap.

Just read this whole thing and this poster sums up what I was gonna say pretty well.
Why shouldn't Meta knight have infinite jumps? He has wings and he's been shown to fly far distances in the kirby games without ever having to land on the ground.
Why shouldn't Ike's Ragnell shoot lasers when he forward smashes? In the games Ragnell has a beam-sword like mechanic where it shoots lasers. Beyond this, aether should restore health and break shield.

Things are already arbitrary in our suspension of disbelief. On hit canceling adds depth to Lucario's character and makes him a differently played smash character. You don't like on-hit cancelling? Fine. I don't honestly care. It makes the punish game based around good DI and shield pressure, which is what I want.
Saying "this isn't good design because I say so" means nothing. You have no reasons why other than things being "intuitive", which is a stupid concept in itself. Why shouldn't an animal, swinging his fists, have a much faster ability to follow up on a hit than say, a swordsman?
Beyond that, why is something being intuitive an intrinsically good thing? Isn't depth the exact opposite of intuition?
Lets put down some definitions, because you seem to like this word a lot. I'll just google it and go from there.

in·tu·i·tion
ˌint(y)o͞oˈiSHən/
noun

1. 1.
   the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning.

If you want to game to be based around understanding something immediately without reasoning, then good luck mastering your characters.
I understand that basic elements should be intuitive, but asking that the finer points be intuitive is against the very nature of a game such as this, and forcing things to be that way would only make it much worse for wear.

 

[Risky]

I find it more of a hinderance. Luc's combination of bad approach options, inability to handle pressure, and lack of a consistent pressure tool to aid his short reach really do a number on him. Luc really needs a consistent option to aid his approach as aura charge approaches can be really well defended against. Each come from the exact same distance, so it's not hard to stop an approach of his.

I use it a lot in my neutral, shorthopping and mixing up how long I charge it, when I throw it, ASC into a Fair if they approach, add some wavebouncing here there and it becomes a thing. Most people in my area love to powershield projectiles and it's one of the hardest to PS when you mix it up. Being in neutral doesn't mean you need to immediately approach this instant, you have other options.

What aura charge options are you using that are easy to defend against? Grounded DT -> Dtilt is an extremely consistent punish for me. If you can identify anything that they do in neutral (like Falco's laser) you can punish it very consistently if you have an aura charge. Once that gets into their head you don't even have to cancel the DT as they'll be stuck in shield waiting for your option as you throw them.

@ Giygacoal
I definitely did not know that! There seemed to be some inconsistency when it clanked certain projectiles. This is great info, thanks!

edit: Wow, you only get 2 frames to shoot it apparently.

 

[Giygacoal]

I thought you could not really do much in the time Lucario could cancel a action into command grab. Maybe I should be going for shield rolls, that may be quick enough.

Command Grab is a well-balanced move now because it has more startup lag. Back in 2.0-2.1 it carried Lucario to OP tier by working so consistently.

every time Lucario gets the slightest buff people will come to this board and constantly post about how he needs massive over-compensating nerfs.

True, but I could see why. Lucario's kit feels like a big jab string, so changes (regardless of the apparent "intensity") have more extreme domino effects on him than on any other character.

I think we just need some more MU exploration. When I visited the Zero board Oro made a good point about just working with what the character already has to naturally come up with strategies. That's how Melee play developed.

 

[Zoa]

I typically bait out my opponent and use aerial DT -> dair/bair depending on the situation. If my opponent learns that, then I mix up between DT -> dtilt or aerial DT mix up. I always get shielded out of the attack by a practice partner in my area who mains Yoshi. He picked up the range and timing off DT, so I'm forced to platform camp with BAS or fluke him out now.

If I'm playing WiFi with KnitePhox, then I practically have to ledge camp. He uses Ivysaur, Mewtwo, and Falco, so it's extremely difficult to get in with those characters he uses. I'm just glad Phox hasn't picked up on the timing yet.

 

[ZaloMonkada]

if you've watched any decent player play lucario, you'll realize he's at a great place in terms of balance and design. His combo game is insane and gets dropped when the lucario makes a mistake or the opponent has good mixups. His neutral game is a bit weak, but it is not bad by any means. You can totally make things work (see aMSa) and destroy good opponents. He has all the tools of a good character, it's just that no one good has figured him out yet to the point that he becomes a top 10 character. There's no reason to make changes, let's just wait and see what happens to him.

 

[Zoa]

Just to point out that while the topic is our "ideal 4.0 Lucario", I'm mostly happy with the way he is. The changes I would like to see happen would be aesthetic (cling out of DJ), or just change up some functions to make the move more useful overall. The only drastic buff he needs is a shield size increase. There should be no reason why Luc's shield should be that small with everything he has to do to get in already.

 

[Risky]

If you look at the shield size data in P:M, he's tied for the 2nd smallest shield with Squirtle, a character 1/4 his size? While every other character his size has a 50% bigger shield.

 

[Thor]

I've watched dozens of players play PM Lucario without knowing about OHC, and none of them even executed it by accident.

I did that the first time. I did a jab and I started holding analog stick, was like "What the?" and then I kept doing it, found it also worked out of dash attack. You just haven't watched the right players.

Skipped most of the second page, but I'll say OHC is concrete and intuitive - if you punch someone in , I dunno, life, no one says you can't then grab them while they're stunned instead of strictly punching or kicking them a second time - he's a fighter [fighting type], and good fighters may start the same (land a blow) but they mix it up to try to get in the hits they can.

Lighting yourself on fire to fly upwards to grab a ledge? ... Yeah, that's intuitive... You must really like FireFox and FireBird... Or how about floating, throwing a sword upward, then jumping from nothingness to catch it? Perfectly intuitive, right? Aether so obviously concrete and realistic and sensical...

 

[Risky]

As intuitive as pressing Down-B, changing clothes and becoming a ninja.

 

[BFlake]

Honestly I can only think of wanting the bigger shield I think that's the only fair buff I could ask the devs to provide. Other than that I agree with his style as it is now, he can (with great tech skill and knowledge of your opponent) combo like CRAZY I have on many many many occasions comboed friends from 0 to 60% or more and then with Lucario's weight he can receive the same punishment so there is clear incentive to go for safe combo enders and reset the game than mash buttons.

 

[Giygacoal]

Lighting yourself on fire to fly upwards to grab a ledge? ... Yeah, that's intuitive... You must really like FireFox and FireBird... Or how about floating, throwing a sword upward, then jumping from nothingness to catch it? Perfectly intuitive, right?.

Peach's down-smash doesn't make any sense in human biomechanics, but it's intuitive because dresses are known for spinning!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Make his aura sphere faster in both ASC and uncharged.

Large aura sphere is just a gimmick trying to force people into it.

 

[Darkmask]

I'll be honest, I almost never use normal Aura Sphere due to the fact Lucario has such good fighting combos now, the Aura Sphere just seems like an added bonus, really. An option for a ranged attack, but nothing you would base you're Luc's playstyle around. Of course, I do use Aura Bomb, it's a great finisher, and I've had many people tell me just it's presence on the screen freaks them out and makes them make errors, not to mention unless you're dealing with a reflector, it's a great shield, Aura Bomb and run through you're own projectile.

As for regular Aura Sphere? Iunno, maybe make it a homing attack? I mean Aura Sphere in the actual PokéVerse is a homing attack, would be interesting to change how it works so that AS curves and follows opponents, changing it's arc to get in their way. Just that's just a thought.

One thing I would like to see is a new Aura move that allows Lucario to stop itself mid-knockback, like a Shield+B that causes Lucario to do the same animation he does when he stops ExtremeSpeed early, and would effectively stop Lucario from being launched away. Would be a great option to give Lucario more survivability, however if implemented, I think it would be imperative that Luc would be in helpless state after using it, that way it has the potential to save him, but not to broken degrees. The idea is based on Lucario's ability "Inner Focus", stopping Lucario from flinching.

 

[Risky]

Darkmask, I like the Aura Sphere idea. It would allow for a Lucario to play campier and make it much safer for the matchups where he has a lot of trouble getting in.

The burst idea.. I know that Lucario is based on other fighters already, but I feel like it's completely out of character for smash to have an effect that undeniably powerful, making you literally impossible to kill if you have a charge and good reaction speed (this might not even be necessary if it's a telegraphed kill, like Fox uthrow -> uair).

 

[Darkmask]

Darkmask, I like the Aura Sphere idea. It would allow for a Lucario to play campier and make it much safer for the matchups where he has a lot of trouble getting in.

The burst idea.. I know that Lucario is based on other fighters already, but I feel like it's completely out of character for smash to have an effect that undeniably powerful, making you literally impossible to kill if you have a charge and good reaction speed (this might not even be necessary if it's a telegraphed kill, like Fox uthrow -> uair).

I'm glad you like my Aura Sphere idea, a homing Aura Sphere would, I think, make up for the decreased power and slower speed.

And yeah, I hear what you're saying about my Inner Focus idea, but that is why I had it that for it to not be completely broken, it would need to cause Luc to become helpless after using it, so it can be punishable if used improperly. As for it being outside of Smash's normality, I think the fact Lucario uses a super meter alone kind of does that already. I am not sure, I think if implemented with a forced helpless state, Inner Focus could be viable but that is just me.

 

[Giygacoal]

As for regular Aura Sphere? Iunno, maybe make it a homing attack? I mean Aura Sphere in the actual PokéVerse is a homing attack, would be interesting to change how it works so that AS curves and follows opponents, changing it's arc to get in their way. Just that's just a thought.

I don't think it's technically possible to program a homing attack onto a character, only modify one he/she already has. Projectiles and (I believe) command grabs also have this restriction.

 

[Mera Mera]

All of my changes would have to do with the aura supers.

I'll start with the nerf since I figure that will be less popular.

Down B: I'm not sure on this, but it seems like the down b aura cancel lets Lucario keep his invincibility during the attack he cancels into. Even without this, his down B super is probably his best super, simply because it gives Lucario high burst range for all of his moves. Invincibility on a move which high burst range nullifies the ability for the opponent to reliably "counter poke" Lucario, simply because an invincible attack will just go through anything. So my change here would be: down B loses invincibility the moment you input an attack. It's fine for him to be invincible until he starts the move, but he should be vulnerable during the start up of the attack he cancels into.

Side B: This one is fine. Maybe make him lose an aura if he inputs it but fails to grab? But that doesn't need to happen. It's fine as is.

Up B: Just one change: allow him to wall cling after using the super only.

Neutral B: Easily the worst super atm imo. Most changes that would help it in a relevant way would also make it too good (like speeding up the launch or something). I think the best change for it would be for it to stay out 1.5ish times longer. This would be cool cause throwing/hitting people into it is really what makes the attack cool in the first place, and it would help improve the possibility of that happening.


As for Lucario's shield: I do think that it should be one of his weaknesses, even to the point where he clearly has the worst shield. That said, him getting poked at full shield from Mario's dair is super sad/sh*tty. While I will say, you can tilt your shield down as he gets near the ground to counter this (shield tilting is underused by most), I think a slight buff to shield size would be reasonable.

Note: For those who don't know, burst range means the range an opponent should be wary of because you can put out an attack in that range fast enough that it is not reactable. (Reaction time is about .2 seconds or 12 frames technically, though 15 frames is a good general rule... the .2 seconds is assuming you know exactly what is going to happen next and you are thinking about nothing but reacting to said event). For example, Fox has high horizontal burst range when he is grounded simply because his dash -> jump maintains momentum and is quite fast. Thus even though say, Sheik, has better range on a lot of her individual moves, Fox has more burst range than her.

 

[Darkgun]

All of my changes would have to do with the aura supers.
Down B: I'm not sure on this, but it seems like the down b aura cancel lets Lucario keep his invincibility during the attack he cancels into. Even without this, his down B super is probably his best super, simply because it gives Lucario high burst range for all of his moves. Invincibility on a move which high burst range nullifies the ability for the opponent to reliably "counter poke" Lucario, simply because an invincible attack will just go through anything. So my change here would be: down B loses invincibility the moment you input an attack. It's fine for him to be invincible until he starts the move, but he should be vulnerable during the start up of the attack he cancels into.

To alleviate your confusion, the short period of invincibly during DTC is intentional according to the Lucario page. It is to be noted that the duration of invincibility is not dependent upon move, though I can't say I actually know how many frames he remains intangible after inputting a cancel. Maybe it is just because I play the character, but with a 12 frame startup, plus travel time while intangible, plus DTC'd move startup, there would seem to be plenty of time to respond on reaction. That would mean that the fastest moves would have an active hitbox on frame 17 (dtilt, utilt's earliest hitboxes. Jabs are sooooo slow.), assuming a cancel doesn't use one extra frame (whoopidy-do, right?). And on top of all this, a spotdodge is the predominantly reliable solution for everything but DTC>jab, or shielding and buffering a roll out. Noting that the following is my opinion, I can't say I see why Lucario having a 17+ frame startup reversal that requires somewhat precise spacing is a little too extreme, though I will confess that since the reversal can be a mixup it is rather strong, but it does burn one charge to use.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Fixing his garbage shield is really all i want out of life. Please to be fixing the shield.

 

[entr0p1a]

I'd kinda like it if his fair would be a sex kick with a sweet spot like Zelda's.

 

[Mera Mera]

To alleviate your confusion, the short period of invincibly during DTC is intentional according to the Lucario page. It is to be noted that the duration of invincibility is not dependent upon move, though I can't say I actually know how many frames he remains intangible after inputting a cancel. Maybe it is just because I play the character, but with a 12 frame startup, plus travel time while intangible, plus DTC'd move startup, there would seem to be plenty of time to respond on reaction. That would mean that the fastest moves would have an active hitbox on frame 17 (dtilt, utilt's earliest hitboxes. Jabs are sooooo slow.), assuming a cancel doesn't use one extra frame (whoopidy-do, right?). And on top of all this, a spotdodge is the predominantly reliable solution for everything but DTC>jab, or shielding and buffering a roll out. Noting that the following is my opinion, I can't say I see why Lucario having a 17+ frame startup reversal that requires somewhat precise spacing is a little too extreme, though I will confess that since the reversal can be a mixup it is rather strong, but it does burn one charge to use.

You might be right. I've been clashing Lucario's down b -> down smash with jab on reaction lately (using Zard). That said, you can't clash with aerials, you can only beat them by hitting the person first with disjoint. Since Lucario is invincible while he has an attack out, you pretty much don't even want to bother going up at him when he has a charge (unless you're right under him, so this is moreso an edgeguarding issue than a juggling issue). I still think his down B super is his best, but the grounded one at the very least is reasonable.

His aerial down B? It might be fine... but it certainly is frustrating from the opponent's perspective. I personally think a good fix would be that he stays invincible until 1 frame before the hitbox of his aerial comes out. That way if he's in a hitbox when his hitbox comes out (or rather slightly before), then he gets hit, but if he crossed up using the invincibility and is now past the opponents hitbox when his hitbox comes out, he's fine.

I don't insist that this is needed... Kirby has similar things where the best plan of action is to simply wait on the ground and counter when they land. But I do think it would be a good change design-wise personally.

 

[Booster]

Restored to what he was in vanilla brawl before...

 

[bec]

gross brawl lucario is meh, he's so much more fun in pm

 

[Zimflare]

I dunno maybe no free grab if he hits shield or maybe no free smash attack after landing a jab... one of his fastest moves. Too much silliness in one character.

 

[bec]

buffer rolls or spot dodges and learn to DI his moves. nothing of lucarios comes free.