what is your ideal "4.0" lucario?

bec

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#83
yeah and you basically get out for free because pretty much all of lucario's moves have A Lot of endlag, especially his dash attack, force palm and smashes. anyone who doesn't punish lucario for whiffing a move needs to work on their punish game.

or if you prefer not to roll, WD OoS or, as i said before, buffering a spot dodge are solid options.
 
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Risky

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#84
I think the Lucario meta will evolve quickly to punish buffering rolls, or should at least. If they buffer out of every DA you do, ASC it when it hits shield and you get a free punish. ASC/DT after every shield hit you do if you see them buffering anything or trying to shieldgrab you. WD OoS is kinda Risky™ if Lucario presses a lot of buttons. Some characters have ridiculously fast spot dodges that really annoy me (ZSS, Link).

If you're playing a character with a Up-B OoS as an option it will basically obliterate any hope Lucario has of pressuring it if you're fast enough. Zelda comes to mind. Makes me want to scream.
 

#HBC | Joker

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#85
yeah and you basically get out for free because pretty much all of lucario's moves have A Lot of endlag, especially his dash attack, force palm and smashes. anyone who doesn't punish lucario for whiffing a move needs to work on their punish game.

or if you prefer not to roll, WD OoS or, as i said before, buffering a spot dodge are solid options.
technically, none of lucario's moves have A LOT of endlag when they've connected with shield, because you can still ASC. The only time that would be hurting you is if you whiff.
 

Zimflare

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#86
If lucario hits a shield, he can cancel it into his FP which is a 10 frame grab. More than enough time to grab them with the shieldstun the attack would give if they dont have a good OoS up B or U smash.
 

Risky

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#87
technically, none of lucario's moves have A LOT of endlag when they've connected with shield, because you can still ASC. The only time that would be hurting you is if you whiff.
Literally in the next sentence Bec mentions punishing whiffs, as she was outlining the situation of somebody buffering a roll to escape Lucario's followup after hitting their shield.

@ Zimflare Zimflare If you have time to Up-B/Usmash OoS then you have time to buffer a roll or spot dodge as well. If there were a Lucario frame data thread I would be able to show this more convincingly. To FP someone who's shielding it's more about their reaction speed and/or knowledge of what you're doing to them.
 

#HBC | Joker

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#88
except if you whiff, it's your fault. Most characters can be punished for whiffing stuff, that's certainly not unique to Lucario. The point is that Lucario is pretty much always safe when he hits a shield. At least he can be.

but yeah, FP isn't free just because you hit shield. It's certainly an option, and it can work, but there are things the opponent can do that will beat it. It's certainly one of those things that can whiff if you go for it every time.
 
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TK Wolf

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#89
I have a few thoughts, but note that I'm not tourney-level
Bigger shield
Longer grab range (I've had so much more success never using grabs unless it's an easy point-blank punish)
It seems like he REALLY needs some quick punish option, especially OoS.
Dair too hard to connect with both hits
Consistent hitbox on nair as others have said
 

Zimflare

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#90
The only way a buffer roll/spotdodge would work if you were waiting in your shield getting ready to buffer your shield. Unless the lucario player is dumb, then they will just simply run up and grab you or even forcepalm. If lucario hits shield with and aerial it is literally a free forcepalm due to the shieldstun and you don't even have to L cancel because you can start the move before you even hit the ground. Another thing that doesn't work with your oh so brilliant ideas of buffering a roll is if you aren't crouch canceling, or are too high % to crouch cancel, then you wont touch the ground making impossible to shield let alone buffer a roll/spotdodge. It obviously wasn't a good idea coming here with all of you lucario mains because you will only disagree and claim your precious character doesn't need a nerf.
 

bec

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#91
i wish smashboards didnt have a character limit because all i have to say at this point is

lol
 

Hylian

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#93
The only way a buffer roll/spotdodge would work if you were waiting in your shield getting ready to buffer your shield. Unless the lucario player is dumb, then they will just simply run up and grab you or even forcepalm. If lucario hits shield with and aerial it is literally a free forcepalm due to the shieldstun and you don't even have to L cancel because you can start the move before you even hit the ground. Another thing that doesn't work with your oh so brilliant ideas of buffering a roll is if you aren't crouch canceling, or are too high % to crouch cancel, then you wont touch the ground making impossible to shield let alone buffer a roll/spotdodge. It obviously wasn't a good idea coming here with all of you lucario mains because you will only disagree and claim your precious character doesn't need a nerf.
Or you could just learn frame data and then figure out that nothing lucario has combos into FP on shield. He hasn't been able to do that since 2.1.

"But I've seen it!"

You've seen people not react fast enough or not know their options. People give too much respect to lucario on shield.
 

Darkgun

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#95
@ Risky Risky , this, aside from ASC [and FP, as I just discovered] (as looking at the 2.5 frame data dump by Rat seems to dictate otherwise), should still be accurate, despite being from 2.5. I don't recall reading anywhere in the last two patches a change in move duration, spare DT, and that is just when the intangible frames begin, if I am not mistaken.

@ Zimflare Zimflare , for the sake of conversation, education, and just in case I like to hear myself talk, I'm going to assume that you are not, as suggested above, trolling. This is mainly since I've heard this before. Like... a bunch. Let's talk shield strings for a moment.

-----
There is no x>FP: due to his design, there is currently no move that inescapably links into Force Palm. The move has a 10 frame startup (first grabbox on frame 11), and the tightest window of escape that Lucario can possibly create is off of a tipper fsmash (9 frames of hitstun), which is well out of range for FP's grab (though this may vary is the opponent's momentum manages to bypass the move's push on shield), and it rapidly declines from there. Using only buffer roll or spot dodge as an OoS option, evading Lucario's smashes or FP will leave him vulnerable, as the moves themselves aren't all that safe on whiff. You are not using your rolls to escape pressure so much as a way to punish an unsafe shield string. Rolling prematurely generate less safe results.

As an alternative to FP, Lucario can make his shield strings safer by using Double Team, however, even when the string is ended on this special, the move has a significant (I want to say 12 frames, but I'm no longer sure if I'm conjuring that from thin air or not) startup, travels a specific distance, and has some form of endlag. DTC is traditionally used as a reversal/surprise tool, but simply jumping OoS makes you mostly, if not completely, safe. If you want to punish Lucario for using DT at the end of a shield string you could always just grab him during startup. Or punish the endlag with a solid OoS option.

Still worried about a perfect shield string? Well, there is one! Aura Sphere. Yep, that charge-y thing. Hitbox on frame one, like most charging moves that generate hitboxes. If Lucario can somehow get completely over your hurtbox, he can ASC and force a shield poke, break, or wait until you release.

Want a strong punish for Lucario's strings on shield? Grab. No, really, I've had people grab me during a jab string. No grab armor or anything. Honestly I'm surprised you don't see more people do it. Opponent ASCs in front of you? Grab 'em. Earliest hitbox they can follow up with is 5 frames (on top of the 8 frames for ASC, so 13 total).

I do hope this helped.
-----


@ Hylian Hylian , way to say everything I was workin' on for the past hour in what is honestly a much more efficient fashion. XD


Edit: @ Zimflare Zimflare again.
sakladj;lfsdioafaejla;lnxjak;fls

Enjoy your matchup knowledge anyway. ^^
 
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THEDADPOOL

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#98
after reading some of this thread i noticed one or two dudes salty at lucario ohc mechanic if you have such a problem with it learn how spot dodge better and bait dt and punish the long lag time he has on most of his move list so that he doesnt go into another move. problem solved [insert easy button]

edit:also his ohc mechanic is just the way he combos and pressure, just like a space can shffl an aerial into shine jump cancel do something else and be generally safe is there combo and pressure system(not even the including the pew pew feature they have). they can do it on hit, shield, or on whiff because they can and everyone accepts that.

More related to actual threads purpose
i like the ideals of
1 downb startup being slightly shorter
2. his fair(not so much nair imo) being more sex kick like
3. his shield
 
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Blitzus

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#99
Mine is relatively simple. Cancelling your Recovery into using another recovery.

Edit: using a charge to cancel your recovery in order to use a second recovery.
 
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Darkgun

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Mine is relatively simple. Cancelling your Recovery into using another recovery.

Edit: using a charge to cancel your recovery in order to use a second recovery.
You can technically do this already. If initiated from the ground, ES can be cancelled via charge, and then used again. In air, one must OHC off something post ESC to use the move again.
 

bec

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ES = extremespeed (up b)
DT = double team (down b)
AS = aura sphere (neutral b)
C typically stands for cancel (ESC, DTC, ASC)
OHC = on hit cancel, refers to lucario's ability to cancel one move into another
FP = force palm
aFP = aerial force palm
gFP = grounded force palm (i use this, dunno how many others do?)
AB = aura bomb

those are the lucario specific ones that i can think of off the top of my head
 
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ES = extremespeed (up b)
DT = double team (down b)
AS = aura sphere (neutral b)
C typically stands for cancel (ESC, DTC, ASC)
OHC = on hit cancel, refers to lucario's ability to cancel one move into another
FP = force palm
aFP = aerial force palm
gFP = grounded force palm (i use this, dunno how many others do?)
AB = aura bomb

those are the lucario specific ones that i can think of off the top of my head
What do yo think the best acronym for aura charging aerial force palm is? AaFP?
 

Blitzus

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TY @ bec bec the beautiful. That helps a lot. I was worried it was actual stuff I didn't know like tech. (those damn JC grabs. I just figured those out.)

@ Darkgun Darkgun I see. I've never been able to cancel an extremespeed and use another one, only use an airdodge afterward. I'll try again. The bit of the OHC (Am I cool, guys?) allowing another one is also interesting. It should help with more ridiculous air combos.

What do yo think the best acronym for aura charging aerial force palm is? AaFP?
Lucari-Dunk?
 

Zoa

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After getting my ass handed to me again by more spacies, and a Zard, I gotta say my ideal Luc would actually have pressure options. I just can't do anything in most match ups aside from DD. Luc has the tools. It's just his tools horrendously suck.

I even had a very safe Weegee player punish me incredibly hard in my local practice group. WEEGEE. :drfacepalm:
 

Blitzus

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After getting my *** handed to me again by more spacies, and a Zard, I gotta say my ideal Luc would actually have pressure options. I just can't do anything in most match ups aside from DD. Luc has the tools. It's just his tools horrendously suck.

I even had a very safe Weegee player punish me incredibly hard in my local practice group. WEEGEE. :drfacepalm:
Well Zard flat outranges Lucario. I recommend using exclusively a punish game against him.

And the spacies should only out-aggressive Lucario if:
1. The Lucario is playing slow.
2. The Spacie is... just too good.
3. The Lucario doesn't approach.

I recommend either countering the spacie with... whatever counters the spacie, or just.. go nuts on him with Lucario combos.
 

Zoa

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Well Zard flat outranges Lucario. I recommend using exclusively a punish game against him.

And the spacies should only out-aggressive Lucario if:
1. The Lucario is playing slow.
2. The Spacie is... just too good.
3. The Lucario doesn't approach.

I recommend either countering the spacie with... whatever counters the spacie, or just.. go nuts on him with Lucario combos.
I'm very familiar with all these MU for Lucario. I play against these people at least 10 hours a week. I'll admit part of my problem are mind games. I'm still conditioning myself mentally for Smash. The problem is that in each of these MU I can't pressure any of them.

The spacies, moreso Fox, are just way too dominant in the neutral game. This is where Luc really suffers. His aerial approach isn't very good because of a lack of air speed, and just straight up lacks a sex kick to help him OHC off of for potential cross ups. I can't pressure or poke with AS or FP flame because of how much lag they have. I'm just begging to get punished hard if I commit to anything other than BAS, and even it has lots of end lag. I can't even really do anything with his piece of **** wavedash (pardon the language). The extent of his wavedash is only good for platform movement and catching items, such as Link/Tink bombs, in my experience with him.

This leaves me two options in neutral. Either DT cancel as a mix up or DD. BAS isn't a very good option against Fox, and still decently meh against Falco. I can't really pressure with that against them very well. Especially when I'm not very good at mind games yet. He's an offensive character who can't pressure, or even condition, the opponent into much of anything. He has good range, but only on his moves that leave him super punishable on whiff. I can't throw this out in the neutral game and commit to it unless it's off a successful hit or hard read.

Zard isn't as bad as the spacies. I just get wrecked when I commit to too much in our games. That's my fault alone.

I just wish there was some way to actually pressure with Luc. The aura for his supers are supposed to be a reward for your successful hits, but it's so much harder to do since each update thus far has put too much focus on it. There hasn't been any attempt to help grant him the tools to actually help pressure, or condition, the opponent as he is an aggressive character who rewards you for aggressive play.

Apologies for the excessive rambling. Just expressing my thoughts to help clear my head so I can figure out how to do better in my MU with what I have.
 

Hylian

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You should pressure with dash dance spacing against spacies. Dash Dancing is very key against fox especially, and is the main thing that will win you the match-up if your punishes are on point. Avoid large stages like dreamland because fox can just run away from you, but you basically want to dash dance constantly from mid-range to close-range entirely baiting him to whiff a move and then punishing with grab or dash attack(or even WD back dtilt). You play super defensive, but you make it look like you are being aggressive because of the range you are dash dancing at. If you push fox to the ledge and limit his DD space you can then approach and basically just have a 50/50 of him shielding or jumping that you have to guess. While DT is great and can be tricky, it often doesn't net you anything against fox because of how he approaches in neutral. A more fundamental DD/WD back game will take you miles in the match-up.
 

Risky

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I think Spacies are pretty rough for Lucario in general, with my least favorite being Fox. Dashdancing is good, but that's exactly what Fox is going to be doing too, has easier confirms off of any approach, while also having significantly better approaches. If he's mashing Shine when you hit him it limits your options even further. Aura Spheres are good for limiting their movement if they're DD'ing, don't overuse it though.

Low-mid% usmash -> cAS can be pretty effective for getting Spacies offstage or killing them straight up.
 

ForgottenLabRat

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The only things I would like to see is a slightly shorter short hop, and giving the aura part of his side-B a powered up version with knock back and damage more like his F-Smash. Other then that, he was perfect in 3.02
 

Maikou

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First off, Read this entire thing before you reply! I will not stand to have people harassing me because they stopped reading at the word "casual". Just hear me out! I DON'T want to argue with anyone or anything of the sort!

I, personally, just want my down-B to be useful in situations. I'm sick of that "dash" thing. It's literally nothing. Melee wasn't made with every single competitive detail in mind and still appealed to Casuals like me; Project M is not Melee. It is supposedly a "true sequel". It is NOT. Look, I get that you people prefer your style, but the least that could happen is for Project M to properly understand that Lucario as is is NOT LUCARIO. He is Ryu from Street Fighter given Lucario's model and textures with a vaguely Smash-oriented moveset. I haven't been able to play Project M's Lucario because the Down Special doesn't do anything. I keep going to counter and end up getting smacked in the face for my efforts because I dased into the move instead of countering it.

I may not understand the exact usefulness of the move in competitve play, but I do know it's VERY situational. One has to know EXACTLY when to press the buttons TO THE MILISECOND. I'm just not capable of it! I know Competitives practice for this sort of thing, but honestly, I'd rather just like it if Lucario had his Counter move back. I don't mean to be selfish, I'm trying to speak my mind and be respectful at the same time. Like I said, Melee worked for both the Competitive and Casual crowds. Project M just doesn't. It's completely ignoring the other group of people who loved Melee and is focusing solely on it's own group. I'm glad to have Melee's gameplay back, but frustrating not being able to play as my favorite character just because of a few move differences. I also don't see what Project M has against Brawl Lucario's mechanic: Do they just not see the Risk and Reward that's there?

in Brawl, there's another thing one needs to know of Lucario: Getting hurt isn't a reward. at 200% Damage, any fighter can be easily KO'd. 200% Damage is Lucario's Aura Cap. You see, there's this thing here though: While you may get stronger moves and greater range as you take damage, you are still taking damage. In other words, you get weaker on your defenses and stronger on your offenses, and even then, surviving to 200% and above is a rather impressive feat, at least to someone like me. It's not Lucario becomes a faster Ganondorf at Aura cap either. He's still just as easy to launch and just as easy to hit as before. Some Lucario players like myself might even start to get edgey and make Newcomer mistakes like relying only on Specials, which is bound to get one KO'd quickly.

If nothing else, all I want is for Lucario's Down B to be Counter again and for his running animation to be different, like the running animation Lucario has during the cutscene where he finds Snake while he and Meta Knight are running through a corridor.

If you actually read this entire thing, you get a lifetime of cookies: Not many people actually do things like that.
 

Zoa

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I personally played Brawl for up to three years after launch and was a strict Lucario main. However what you're asking for may not necessarily fit in the PM environment. Having that high of a damage cap, with Brawl or Smash 4's scaling, will more likely inhibit Lucario until high percents. The higher gravity, nerfed recoveries, and focus on movement in the PM environment would seriously hurt Brawl Lucario.

Say we revert to Brawl Lucario. That means we lose dash and walking speed. Reverting DT and ES also means we lose even more movement options. Lucario has the third shortest wavedash of any character, and taking the charges away means we lose the burst options we need to even have any form of recovery or approach mix ups. Brawl Lucario would just be nothing but spacing all the time with fsmash or AS. Making him Smash 4 Lucario would be even worse in terms of movement options, and would force FP flame spacing in neutral as well. He can't even DACUS properly. Lucario already has a very rough time in neutral as is. This would make it much worse on him.

Say we keep his dash/walk speed. As of now PM thrives on movement options. We lost three major movement options with removal of charges and OHC. We also lost pursuit, recovery, cross up, and many other options.

We would have an incredibly neutered KO game until extreme percents, or even until we're behind a couple of stocks with moderately high damage. A Lucario with low damage would be extremely vulnerable to crouch cancel. Even moreso than PM Lucario is now. The higher gravity would also probably neuter/hinder his combo game. Luc puts out 20% damage at low percents in twice (even more) the number of moves in comparison to what takes other characters two or three. It's already a mental game past two or three hits with DI, reads, platforms, etc. Luc doesn't need his damage output nerfed that hard at the beginning of each stock.

I do get what you mean by keeping hold of stocks, but stocks are usually gone in a under a minute in these kind of environments. In order to even make damage scaling work in this faster, free flowing movement environment, you would need to have the scaling have a lower scale cap or drastically increase the rate at which it scales just to even make it applicable for KO. Either way this would not help combo ability, and end up forcing the Lucario player into neutral more often than not just to land the killing blow. If there were even a string of moves applicable for combos, or even set ups, I would wager he'd need some form of momentum increase just to capitalize off of his hits. Maybe even lower DI/SDI modifiers on his set up/combo moves.

A lot to Brawl Lucario's combo game, and defense game, were his lingering hitboxes. They caught opponents off guard and made him a very safe character. Smash 4 royally fudged that up. His hitboxes are much smaller, extend his hurtboxes, and don't linger. Either way placing any form of Lucario into the PM environment means he loses the most important option in that kind of environment: movement. You'll be forced to play a campy character that'll have even worse neutral options (though at least you got options to force the opponent to commit), and will be totally different in at least one aspect in terms of momentum just to even capitalize off your moves at higher percents.

On to DT, I personally would not want it changed. PM Lucario needs this or his neutral game would be Bowser level bad. The burst movement with this thing is hilarious. It provides so much Luc needs. DACUS, mix up approach, cross ups OHC off shield, continue combos, mix up recovery, better recovery, etc. Putting either version of DT into this would be a complete downgrade. DT in Brawl was so laughably bad because of how easy it was to avoid. Smash 4 DT is actually usable, but is still situational. Putting it in here is just begging for the user to be punished. The game is so much faster, and just throwing it out is liable for a lost stock. No reason to change this for the sake of change.

The things you're pointing out largely are due to either aesthetics or because you aren't as experienced with the changes Luc received. Also keep in mind PM is largely made for the competitive community. It highly encourages you to get better and understand its inner workings. I would like to see that running animation though. Looks cool.
 

Maikou

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I personally played Brawl for up to three years after launch and was a strict Lucario main. However what you're asking for may not necessarily fit in the PM environment. Having that high of a damage cap, with Brawl or Smash 4's scaling, will more likely inhibit Lucario until high percents. The higher gravity, nerfed recoveries, and focus on movement in the PM environment would seriously hurt Brawl Lucario.

Say we revert to Brawl Lucario. That means we lose dash and walking speed. Reverting DT and ES also means we lose even more movement options. Lucario has the third shortest wavedash of any character, and taking the charges away means we lose the burst options we need to even have any form of recovery or approach mix ups. Brawl Lucario would just be nothing but spacing all the time with fsmash or AS. Making him Smash 4 Lucario would be even worse in terms of movement options, and would force FP flame spacing in neutral as well. He can't even DACUS properly. Lucario already has a very rough time in neutral as is. This would make it much worse on him.

Say we keep his dash/walk speed. As of now PM thrives on movement options. We lost three major movement options with removal of charges and OHC. We also lost pursuit, recovery, cross up, and many other options.

We would have an incredibly neutered KO game until extreme percents, or even until we're behind a couple of stocks with moderately high damage. A Lucario with low damage would be extremely vulnerable to crouch cancel. Even moreso than PM Lucario is now. The higher gravity would also probably neuter/hinder his combo game. Luc puts out 20% damage at low percents in twice (even more) the number of moves in comparison to what takes other characters two or three. It's already a mental game past two or three hits with DI, reads, platforms, etc. Luc doesn't need his damage output nerfed that hard at the beginning of each stock.

I do get what you mean by keeping hold of stocks, but stocks are usually gone in a under a minute in these kind of environments. In order to even make damage scaling work in this faster, free flowing movement environment, you would need to have the scaling have a lower scale cap or drastically increase the rate at which it scales just to even make it applicable for KO. Either way this would not help combo ability, and end up forcing the Lucario player into neutral more often than not just to land the killing blow. If there were even a string of moves applicable for combos, or even set ups, I would wager he'd need some form of momentum increase just to capitalize off of his hits. Maybe even lower DI/SDI modifiers on his set up/combo moves.

A lot to Brawl Lucario's combo game, and defense game, were his lingering hitboxes. They caught opponents off guard and made him a very safe character. Smash 4 royally fudged that up. His hitboxes are much smaller, extend his hurtboxes, and don't linger. Either way placing any form of Lucario into the PM environment means he loses the most important option in that kind of environment: movement. You'll be forced to play a campy character that'll have even worse neutral options (though at least you got options to force the opponent to commit), and will be totally different in at least one aspect in terms of momentum just to even capitalize off your moves at higher percents.

On to DT, I personally would not want it changed. PM Lucario needs this or his neutral game would be Bowser level bad. The burst movement with this thing is hilarious. It provides so much Luc needs. DACUS, mix up approach, cross ups OHC off shield, continue combos, mix up recovery, better recovery, etc. Putting either version of DT into this would be a complete downgrade. DT in Brawl was so laughably bad because of how easy it was to avoid. Smash 4 DT is actually usable, but is still situational. Putting it in here is just begging for the user to be punished. The game is so much faster, and just throwing it out is liable for a lost stock. No reason to change this for the sake of change.

The things you're pointing out largely are due to either aesthetics or because you aren't as experienced with the changes Luc received. Also keep in mind PM is largely made for the competitive community. It highly encourages you to get better and understand its inner workings. I would like to see that running animation though. Looks cool.
Huh? Are you talking to me? I'm confused. You've got no quotes an it seems like you're addressing me, but I never said anything about Brawl Lucario or Smash 4 Lucario being better (I think? I'm kind of tired at the moment). All my complaints add up to is that I don't like how Down-B is so useless on the surface for someone like me. I know that it's made for the competitive crowd, I'm just saying that they shouldn't focus on JUST the competitive aspects. A few things for Casuals like me, such as Lucario's Down-Special, and maybe a slightly less complex combo system for some of the more drastically changes characters.

I want to get across that I don't hate what Project M has done or what it strives for. My complaints are solely on Lucario and a few more less-than-huge things. Like I said, Melee was a great game. Everybody loved Melee. Even Casuals like me enjoy Melee. I can fight a level 5 Melee CPU really well with the characters I like. I also have a few quirks to my playstyle that are very much from the Competitive crowd. I've expressed before that I may like to one day be a competitive player, but for now I'm a Casual.

If I've come across as more angered than I intended, I apologize. And again, I just think they could do a few small things to appeal to Casuals a bit better. Really, I'm mostly just upset about the blatant "Lucario is Ryu" going on.

Oh, and while this is a bit off-topic, does anyone know if it's possible to play as Mewtwo and Roy in Subspace Emissary in any way? I understand that Subspace is programmed much differently from the rest of the game...
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
781
Naw man. It's cool. I know you weren't angry or anything. I was just outlining the difficulties a Lucario from PM/Smash 4 would face if we keep his aura mechanic and change up his moves. Though I was indeed addressing what you brought up.

I don't think it's a good idea to revert to Brawl/Smash 4 Lucario in the PM environment. I wasn't necessarily saying they are good or bad objectively. It would require some serious changes to the old aura system to be a gimmick worthy of functioning in the faster environment as it stands right now. There's too much against it right now in theory.

I'm not exactly sure how to change DT to be more straightforward, but I'll tell you the best way I can to help you understand it. Use it to screw with your opponent. You can go to it from any attack other than specials or grabs. It's great for putting space between you, and just great for looking stylish and making your opponent go "WTF was that?". All my practice partners still get mind****ed by this move. I don't really know anything about SSE in all honesty. Most of my time is consumed in training trying to get my daggum hand to get down moonwalking. I'm so not used to moving my hand for that kind of technique.
 

Darkgun

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
215
Location
Nowhere Land, Tx
@ Maikou Maikou So this DT conversation is quite similar to one I had with a Brawl Lucario main when he first started playing PM with me. As an alternative way to think about the move (in addition to what was stated above), think of Double Team as a counter to projectiles and unsafe over commitment. The move shares the read-punish nature of a standard counter, but also has the added benefit of allowing the player to choose the punish, and comes with a fair bit of utility in the form of monstrous horizontal recovery distance, general movement, and safer escapes when applying unsafe shield pressure.

Though I can't say I'm sure why Lucario received OHC specifically, I can definitely clarify the removal of the previous Aura mechanic: it takes reward out of the player's control. In the Project M setting (and with very few exceptions, in the Smash Bros. setting as a whole), the reward a player received in play was dependent upon the character's design and the player's skill. Further, this reward remained static, characterwise, across the entire play experience. The Brawl Aura design drastically changed Lucario's potential throughout the match, depending upon the situation specifics of "Stock Lead?(Y/N); Percent?" (I must say that I am thankful of Smash 4's percent dependency only design.). PM Lucario's experience is more normalized: Damage remains constant across stocks and percent, though significant reward is obtained via player skill (in this case successful read/punishes and combo game), players are expected to have around one charge at any one moment, a charge is gained via the Lucario player's successful interaction with the opponent, and using a charge effectively still relies greatly on player interactions. Notably, 3.02 Lucario featured the most normalized play experience thanks to the minimum one charge on respawn (Though I must say I enjoy 3.5's requirement to make conscious decisions when recovering (Should I burn DT now or later? Save a charge and risk a more difficult recovery? Prioritize this stock's survival over powerful kill potential? Recover now and try to squeak out an opponent's stock or respawn and Force Blast the 130% opponent?)).
 
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