What is cheap!?

[Alexander026]

A friend of mine keeps telling me that knocking people back off the edge when there coming back is cheap but i think its a normal aspect of playing the game i need some other players opinions on this so if anyone can help me plz.
PS. also he thinks attacking when u have the invincibilty from right after you die is cheap as well as hitting an opponent when there using their fighter stance. he is also a very good player so i dont think hes a noob but i think he needs to realize these are normal ways to play.

 

[B_Smash07]

Um... Ya. Theys normal. Maybe he just gets mad 'cuz he doesnt kno how to recover from these. And who does he use that has a taunt that could leave him open long enuff for u to respawn and strike?

 

[vZakat]

Your friend has what I'd call a' friendly' playing style. A 'friendly' playing style would be a "not kicking you while your down" mind set. He wants his opponent (or him) to be ready and prepared for the fight, not down on his back. I personally wouldn't call it cheap.

Tournament play has a "Take them out at all cost" mind set, and anything used in the fight is OK. There is not "Blow Below the Belt". Anything used outside the fight (ie real world) I would consider cheap or unsportsman like at least.

I think he's just a kind gamer who isn't ready for the brutal world of tournament play.

 

[Ame$]

Try chainthrowing ur friend ..
__________________________

 

[MikeMoney]

Nah just play peach thats cant spell cheap without p e a c h

 

[Bibbed]

Get a new friend, because your current one is a *****.

 

[Alexander026]

Um... Ya. Theys normal. Maybe he just gets mad 'cuz he doesnt kno how to recover from these. And who does he use that has a taunt that could leave him open long enuff for u to respawn and strike?

I'm talking about a 4-way free-for-all.

 

[Alexander026]

Your friend has what I'd call a' friendly' playing style. A 'friendly' playing style would be a "not kicking you while your down" mind set. He wants his opponent (or him) to be ready and prepared for the fight, not down on his back. I personally wouldn't call it cheap.

Tournament play has a "Take them out at all cost" mind set, and anything used in the fight is OK. There is not "Blow Below the Belt". Anything used outside the fight (ie real world) I would consider cheap or unsportsman like at least.

I think he's just a kind gamer who isn't ready for the brutal world of tournament play.

Actually he's quite a good gamer those three things are about the only things he thinks are cheap, except when he gets really annoyed and says alot of the what were doing is cheap.
Like the time he turned off the gamecube when he was about to die.

 

[Inevitable]

Cheap is when you smack the controller out of your opponets hands, or unplug their controller.

 

[Dragon_Hawk]

Edgeguarding is quite normal. Why someone wouldn't take the opportunity to kill someone during recovery is absolutely beyond me, even if fair gameplay.

And if he chooses not to do that and purposely avoids using one of the biggest fundamentals in Melee, then he's not a good player. And he sounds like he could use a dose of reality if he's calling them cheap and throws fits when he loses that escalate into him turning off the gamecube.

 

[$ick]

he is also a very good player so i dont think hes a noob but i think he needs to realize these are normal ways to play.

You're probably wrong, he sounds pretty newb to me.

 

[Mic_128]

The idea of the whole game is "Get the other person to fall off the platform" Why would you let him come back?

Would it be cheap if in a boxing match one of the boxers turns and starts waving to the croud? Is it cheap when the other guy hits him? Or was the first guy stupid for taunting when he knows he could easily get hit?

The point of the respawn invincability is so that you get a chance to fight back since you just died. Not cheap to use it.

 

[HideousBeing]

A friend of mine keeps telling me that knocking people back off the edge when there coming back is cheap but i think its a normal aspect of playing the game i need some other players opinions on this so if anyone can help me plz.
PS. also he thinks attacking when u have the invincibilty from right after you die is cheap as well as hitting an opponent when there using their fighter stance. he is also a very good player so i dont think hes a noob but i think he needs to realize these are normal ways to play.

You're friend couldn't be more of a fool. Dubbing anything in Smash "cheap" is a characteristic of gamers we call "scrubs." Evading your opponent after they are KO'ed is a part of the game. Your fighter stance, or "taunt" as we say on SWF is meant to tease your opponent. The point is to say, "Look. I just killed you and I can risk doing something that endangers me as well! Hah! The point is to rub it in WHEN YOU CAN! -not to expect your opponent to wait patiently for its completion. As for "knocking people back off the edge when there coming," we call this edgeguarding and that's what this game is all about. There is a reason recovery attacks are recovery attacks and also all the different ways to return to the playing field when you have grabbed the ledge. Look around this site, and you may learn a few things so you can own your friend! Again, you're right- these are normal ways to play. Edgeguard him always, punish him if you can when he taunts, and always try to deal as much damage as you can while invincible. Tell him this, so you both play the game the way it's meant to be played. Good luck!

 

[Alexander026]

Edgeguarding is quite normal. Why someone wouldn't take the opportunity to kill someone during recovery is absolutely beyond me, even if fair gameplay.

And if he chooses not to do that and purposely avoids using one of the biggest fundamentals in Melee, then he's not a good player. And he sounds like he could use a dose of reality if he's calling them cheap and throws fits when he loses that escalate into him turning off the gamecube.

Well he oly turned it off once but my friend was there and he turned it off because of him, but there have been 1 or 2 instances when he turned off my guy for "not playing by the rules."
Actually he only considers it cheap if you knock them back sideways before they recover but its perfectly fine to knock them up or down.
Another one of the problems is that he's the best player there and were at least moderatly good players i dont know about tournament status but most people are pretty good.
additionally he hates people who "run away" though most of the time their just trying to get to a better position to fight him.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

What is cheap!?

Baby don't hurt me.
Don't hurt me.
No more.

What is cheap!?
Baby don't hurt me.
Don't hurt me.
No more.

 

[Kerocola]

The idea of the whole game is "Get the other person to fall off the platform" Why would you let him come back?
Always this is my line in a topic like this. Looks like someone got there before me.
Invincibility Complaints:
Let's face it, though, invinicibility. That's something to use to your advantage. It's not like you HAVE to get hit, you can dodge attacks and evade those few invincibility frames. Everyone does it. Whining about it is going to get you killed if you want to play seriously. Running away? Tactic. In free for alls, that's what you do. You run, steal a kill at high percentage, and evade attacks, single people out, KO them. At the end, you won't be hurt much, kill the last guy-- you are the winner.
Edge:
There is no such thing as FAIR play. This game is punishing someone for a mistake they make. So, your technique might get more repetitive, but it is effective. Your friend is a bad loser, and is too nice to be playing a fighting game. I mean, come on, he can't be a good player if he doesn't do anything effective. You can't play fair, that's being too nice. You beat your enemy-you will do whatever it takes. If he's got a problem with edge techniques, why is he playing the game? You send the opponent off the edge. It's just humorous to let them just get back on every time. He probably will have a hard time VS a Samus if he doesn't even defend the stage, defeating the purpose of the game...

If that doesn't convince you, look at pro videos. They do it, it isn't banned. Why ban it yourself? Things get banned for a reason, if the reason goes beyond your understanding, just trust the other player's judgement. It's fun, and it takes skill to not SD by the edge and make effective guarding skills. Lots of cool comebacks are by the edge. Try it out, anyone can do it, so it isn't unfair.

 

[The Black Cat]

Edgegaurding, you'd be stupid not to do it.
"Why yes I think I'll take a chance to throw the match.

Invincibility, it's there to keep people from getting a huge hit in right as somebody respawns, now I think the only cheap thing here is how long it lasts.
But if he's a good player like you say its a simple matter to say just about...anybody, to stay away while those frames last. It's part of smash for so long any decent player should be able to avoid it.

Taunting, stupid to do it while in a match. Smart people don't do it, or only do it as the person is in the process losing their last life. MY friends posted their first video, where they both taunted several times in the middle of the match...several people pointed this out and called them noobs. Obviously this is worse in a 4 way free for all.

In my experience lots of peole call this cheap. Then the majority of the community explains it really isn't. He's not unintelligent, just making a common miscomception. Or maybe his personal opionion just doesnt' fir the norm.

 

[Lightshade]

Yes, in a sense, he's just trying to get you annoyed. That's the whole point of the game anyway. In order to win, you have to knock the other player(s) off the edge to kill them.

 

[HideousBeing]

What I want to know, is does he apply these "rules" to you only, or does he act nice and honorable for you? Maybe knocking your character upwards or downwards when your character is returning is easier for his character than for yours? Does he set the "guidelines" in order to benefit himself? Maybe he's just better to you because all his rules are in his favor. Don't let him have it. There is no "cheap." Correct him, and explain to him how the game is to be played, or destroy him otherwise.

 

[Ether]

Nothing in the game, aside from gamebreaking manuevers that are banned (freezing glitch, wallbombing stall, etc.), is cheap. Do what it takes to win, or lose to someone who does.

 

[Alexander026]

The idea of the whole game is "Get the other person to fall off the platform" Why would you let him come back?
Always this is my line in a topic like this. Looks like someone got there before me.
Invincibility Complaints:
Let's face it, though, invinicibility. That's something to use to your advantage. It's not like you HAVE to get hit, you can dodge attacks and evade those few invincibility frames. Everyone does it. Whining about it is going to get you killed if you want to play seriously. Running away? Tactic. In free for alls, that's what you do. You run, steal a kill at high percentage, and evade attacks, single people out, KO them. At the end, you won't be hurt much, kill the last guy-- you are the winner.
Edge:
There is no such thing as FAIR play. This game is punishing someone for a mistake they make. So, your technique might get more repetitive, but it is effective. Your friend is a bad loser, and is too nice to be playing a fighting game. I mean, come on, he can't be a good player if he doesn't do anything effective. You can't play fair, that's being too nice. You beat your enemy-you will do whatever it takes. If he's got a problem with edge techniques, why is he playing the game? You send the opponent off the edge. It's just humorous to let them just get back on every time. He probably will have a hard time VS a Samus if he doesn't even defend the stage, defeating the purpose of the game...

If that doesn't convince you, look at pro videos. They do it, it isn't banned. Why ban it yourself? Things get banned for a reason, if the reason goes beyond your understanding, just trust the other player's judgement. It's fun, and it takes skill to not SD by the edge and make effective guarding skills. Lots of cool comebacks are by the edge. Try it out, anyone can do it, so it isn't unfair.

What I really dont like is that he's the 2nd best player I know and i've only beaten him once or twice when he wasnt playing his best and that was a few months ago plus he usually treats the 4-way free-for-alls as two seperate 1v1 matches.
usually him and another friend of mine who I for the most part consider on par with me usually kill everyone else first then fight eachother.

 

[Perfect Hero]

Only scrubs use the word cheap. . . Cheap is a mental construct developed by the scrub to limit themselves.

^Get better and beat him?

 

[Mic_128]

Invincibility, it's there to keep people from getting a huge hit in right as somebody respawns, now I think the only cheap thing here is how long it lasts.

2 Seconds is cheap? Unless you spawn right on top of them it'd take that 2 seconds to get close to them. (Unless they just stand there for some reason.)

 

[Marth/Falco Pro]

I say, just keep doing what you're doing even if he calls it cheap. He's just making these rules to help him win, most liekly. To me, your friend sounds like a total scrub who has to use handicaps or "rules" as you call them to help him beat you.

 

[Wobbles]

Not much of a discussion when we all agree, is it?

The most basic argument to counter him is to ask him to explain what "cheap" means. There is no concrete response.

If he defines "cheap" as being "unfair," then calmly explain to him that since these aspects of play are available to everybody, then it can't be unfair to use them. Also explain that a game meant to simulate battle is meant to simulate one of the most important aspects of a fight: maneuver your opponent into a weakened position that you can take advantage of. That's all edgeguarding is. You force your opponent to a weak position, then use the opportunity to vanquish him. Simple Art of War stuff right there.

If he says "cheap" is boring, then tell him that it's really boring to get a hit and then have to wait for five seconds while you return.

If he says "the game shouldn't be played like that," tell him about the Edgehog bonus you get when you hang onto the ledge and keep somebody from grabbing it. Tell him about how the designers put in a command that permits you to let go of the edge, suggesting that they envisioned off the level fighting and strategy.

Ask him this: why do characters have different forms of recovery? If the game designers didn't want you fighting out there and keeping each other from returning, then all the characters would get back the same.

Lastly, explain that if you guys do these things to each other, and try to find ways around it, then the game will become a lot more fun.

 

[Xsyven]

Like Wobbles said, everything has an opposite excuse. Even wobbling, which is named after him, has an excuse. Just tell your opponent to counter your Ice Climbers with Ice Climbers. Ice Climbers can't wobble another set of hammers.

 

[go2chutch]

melee in its simplest form is a contest of who can remain on the stage the longest......go. its just like how tennis is a game of who can get 1 more ball to land in. letting someone come back is called charity, if you feel like being nice go ahead but your still losing something of value and thats usualy the chance to kill. who does your friend play by the way because maybe that has something to do with this. if he plays samus id say your getting played hard. if he knows how to di id say your getting played even harder. your best player might just be some douchebag looking to beat his friends using any means necessary including editing the rules. someones sig said something like "smash is 40% edgeguard 20& combo 20% tech skill and 20% spacing" and i think thats accurate, if you feel like playing 60% of what smash really is, a game of keeping people off stages using means that go from thunder knees to edgeguarding with fsmashes or ofstage aerials, then by all means go ahead. but you sound like someone who wants to play smash rather than someones diluted version of the game.

ive never understood the meaning behind cheap by the way. theres no list of things in a game that are and are not legal. if fighting is legal fighting off the stage is legal. your playing the game that was created by nintendo, not the game created by nintendo which came with a manuel created by some unofficial scource that bans combat in specific areas with underdeveloped reasons

 

[Garath331]

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

Someone links this every time 'cheap' comes up. Read it, then show it to your friend.

 

[Rikana]

Anyone that wins against me is cheap.

Haha nah.. I think any type of glitch abuse for one specific character (ex. ice climber's freeze) is cheap. Not including wavedashing for those who concider it as a glitch since it's a ssbm universal glitch, if it is one.

 

[MVPaintballer]

your friends a noob.
goodwill = cheap
ross for less = cheap
garage sales = cheap
edge gaurding = not cheap

 

[1048576]

Not much of a discussion when we all agree, is it?

The most basic argument to counter him is to ask him to explain what "cheap" means. There is no concrete response.

If he defines "cheap" as being "unfair," then calmly explain to him that since these aspects of play are available to everybody, then it can't be unfair to use them. Also explain that a game meant to simulate battle is meant to simulate one of the most important aspects of a fight: maneuver your opponent into a weakened position that you can take advantage of. That's all edgeguarding is. You force your opponent to a weak position, then use the opportunity to vanquish him. Simple Art of War stuff right there.

If he says "cheap" is boring, then tell him that it's really boring to get a hit and then have to wait for five seconds while you return.

If he says "the game shouldn't be played like that," tell him about the Edgehog bonus you get when you hang onto the ledge and keep somebody from grabbing it. Tell him about how the designers put in a command that permits you to let go of the edge, suggesting that they envisioned off the level fighting and strategy.

Ask him this: why do characters have different forms of recovery? If the game designers didn't want you fighting out there and keeping each other from returning, then all the characters would get back the same.

Lastly, explain that if you guys do these things to each other, and try to find ways around it, then the game will become a lot more fun.

Those are the writings of an intelligent man. Anyway, I would not try to reason that cheap is not inherent in the game. I would try to reason that cheap: yielding results disproportionate to the required input skill, is an integral part of the game and should be abused for maximum enjoyment, otherwise the game will be reduced to quibbling about what does and doesn't "cross the line."

Like Wobbles said, everything has an opposite excuse. Even wobbling, which is named after him, has an excuse. Just tell your opponent to counter your Ice Climbers with Ice Climbers. Ice Climbers can't wobble another set of hammers.

I'll leave this one alone.

 

[7734]

Ur friend reminds me of my little brother. He's 8.

 

[Inevitable]

In response to the topic title.

Your mom on a thursday night.

 

[Doc_Holiday]

There is no such thing as cheap. There is "annoying but effective" but no such thing as cheap.

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

your friends a noob.
goodwill = cheap
ross for less = cheap
garage sales = cheap
edge gaurding = not cheap

u forgot some

spamming=cheap
peach=cheap
taunting while your opp. is spawning=cheap
saying egdeguarding is cheap=cheap

 

[Inevitable]

There is no such thing as cheap. There is "annoying but effective" but no such thing as cheap.

There are things that are cheap, it doesn't have to be in-game cheapness, simply because there is no such thing. Cheap as in smacking the controller out of your opponet's hand or disconnecting their controller.

Actually there is one in-game cheap effectiveness.

Pause barraging for the win.

 

[Lightshade]

There are things that are cheap, it doesn't have to be in-game cheapness, simply because there is no such thing. Cheap as in smacking the controller out of your opponet's hand or disconnecting their controller.

Actually there is one in-game cheap effectiveness.

Pause barraging for the win.

Yea, that is the only real way to be cheap. Some people like to complain a lot of the time, and that is what they say.

 

[Hotshot]

The only tactic close to being considered cheap I can think of is playing as DK in Flatzone and grabbing your opponent from anywhere on the floor, carrying them over to the edge of the stage and chucking them. Easy kills.

All other tactics are fine, your friend just needs to learn that fact and get use to it.

 

[Doc_Holiday]

If your smart, you won't get grabbed by DK because that is how he kills everyone. Plus he has horrible grab range.

 

[Reese]

SHEIK

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