What if?... (My concern with the mindset of the smash community)

[Foxtorres]

-L-canceling is gone too.

In case you missed it L-canceling is confirmed and is just different in execution but buffed in effectiveness. Now you have to fast fall before the aerial and it reduces all lag. Those are really the major concerns.

isnt the game a bit floatier? wouldnt that mean fast falling and doing an arial+L cancel would be a bit easier than it would be in melee? I dunno just tossing that out there... sounds to me like it would work easier with the way the physics are =) maybe, could go either way, I havnt played it myself.

 

[Winged Messiah]

isnt the game a bit floatier? wouldnt that mean fast falling and doing an arial+L cancel would be a bit easier than it would be in melee? I dunno just tossing that out there... sounds to me like it would work easier with the way the physics are =) maybe, could go either way, I havnt played it myself.

I havn't played either, but it seems logical. I don't think it's a bad thing though, maybe it would inspire more of my friends to play at a higher level. At the moment, some of them just can't be bothered.

 

[Spellman]

I find it funny how people think lack of things to abuse/AT make a game non-competitive.

What exactly makes a game competitive? Skill? Or the ability to do more difficult things not originally planned for the game?

I feel you can make any multiplayer game competitive, as long as it isn't so broken it is impossible to really play against most people.

Well I mean, a game like Mario Party, especially certain unbalanced sequals of it, like, the games don't mean anything. You could win every mini-game, and some other guy could just win because he rolled the dice right, got to the stars first, and won the end game bonus stars. That doesn't mean it can't be fun, but winning doesn't say anything about the player who won it. It's a game of luck where skill means little. Although we could get into a Poker issue here as it is played competitively, but there is calculatable odds in Poker and betting which changes the scene entirely.

Smash Bros. is a game of skill with a bit of luck and randomness. Pokeballs are an example of the luck aspect, you throw it knowing it could either benefit you or waste your time (or in some cases even destroy you), so you have to make a decision with yourself if you want to take the chance and use it or not. Since they're not always on the field however, you're left with brawling your opponent with the skills that you have, and the strategies that you can come up with as the battlefield changes. (dynamic levels and items) This makes it one of the most unique competitive games.

Whether Brawl is floatier, lag hittier, simplifiedier, everyone goes into the battle with the same effects applyed to them. It's not like one player in the match get's Melee physics and one of you gets Brawl physics, everybody gets Brawl physics, so in the end, it's the player who presses the buttons right at the right times who wins.

 

[Shishou]

Well I mean, a game like Mario Party, especially certain unbalanced sequals of it, like, the games don't mean anything. You could win every mini-game, and some other guy could just win because he rolled the dice right, got to the stars first, and won the end game bonus stars. That doesn't mean it can't be fun, but winning doesn't say anything about the player who won it. It's a game of luck where skill means little. Although we could get into a Poker issue here as it is played competitively, but there is calculatable odds in Poker and betting which changes the scene entirely.

Smash Bros. is a game of skill with a bit of luck and randomness. Pokeballs are an example of the luck aspect, you throw it knowing it could either benefit you or waste your time (or in some cases even destroy you), so you have to make a decision with yourself if you want to take the chance and use it or not. Since they're not always on the field however, you're left with brawling your opponent with the skills that you have, and the strategies that you can come up with as the battlefield changes. (dynamic levels and items) This makes it one of the most unique competitive games.

Whether Brawl is floatier, lag hittier, simplifiedier, everyone goes into the battle with the same effects applyed to them. It's not like one player in the match get's Melee physics and one of you gets Brawl physics, everybody gets Brawl physics, so in the end, it's the player who presses the buttons right at the right times who wins.

That really wasn't a good comparison. Items are turned off in competitive play, for good measure.

Luck really should be a very minimal attribute in a game. The only thing I can think of that luck plays a role in is some levels where a hazard may or may not save you or kill you.

 

[Super_alex2]

i thought this too, however, Brawl will not be melee.

 

[Foxtorres]

That really wasn't a good comparison. Items are turned off in competitive play, for good measure.

Luck really should be a very minimal attribute in a game. The only thing I can think of that luck plays a role in is some levels where a hazard may or may not save you or kill you.

dude yah, I friggen hate luck kills... and im pretty sure a lot of the other competative players do as well... I cant stand items when your trying to show skill x_x lol!

 

[Spellman]

That really wasn't a good comparison. Items are turned off in competitive play, for good measure.

Luck really should be a very minimal attribute in a game. The only thing I can think of that luck plays a role in is some levels where a hazard may or may not save you or kill you.

Smash Bros. can be played competitively with items, they just aren't.

If you are skilled enough, you should be able to dodge any item that comes into play, or get to it first, and not smash explosive crates and capsules.

If you are always beating your opponent with no items, and your opponent *sometimes* wins when items are on, that means you weren't very much better than your opponent to begin with, or they are better with items.

 

[Foxtorres]

-ORLY-?! heh, what if the random item spawned drops right infront of their feet? I cant get to it first ;_;

 

[Spellman]

-ORLY-?! heh, what if the random item spawned drops right ifnront of their feet? I cant get to it first ;_;

lol it's annoying, I know, but like I say, you should be able to dodge or shield just about any item that comes into play.

And if two people are running for one hammer, and one person gets to it first and K.O.'s the other guy, that wasn't a cheap K.O., that was just a bad decision for the slower or further player from the hammer to try and run for it.

Like I say, items usually play to the "crappier" characters advantages, and aren't as useful for some of the top tier characters. This gives more characters a chance to shine. Example: Captain Falcon's pretty good, but give him a Home Run bat and he tries to stab you with it? What the flip? But give it to Yoshi and he'll bat you to Antarctica.

 

[Foxtorres]

lol it's annoying, I know, but like I say, you should be able to dodge or shield just about any item that comes into play.

And if two people are running for one hammer, and one person gets to it first and K.O.'s the other guy, that wasn't a cheap K.O., that was just a bad decision for the slower or further player from the hammer to try and run for it.
.

hell yeah its annoying, and yeah its true, should be able to counter/dodge/catch/shield/shine the object back, lots of things you can do to retaliate against an item that you just lob at someone, but other items such as pokeballs they dont need to hit you with... and the hammer thing is just funny X3!!

 

[Shishou]

Smash Bros. can be played competitively with items, they just aren't.

If you are skilled enough, you should be able to dodge any item that comes into play, or get to it first, and not smash explosive crates and capsules.

If you are always beating your opponent with no items, and your opponent *sometimes* wins when items are on, that means you weren't very much better than your opponent to begin with, or they are better with items.

I can't recall any tournament I can take seriously that allowed items. Not to mention most people will just run around and abuse the items rather than fight. Seeing as how same items are just way overpowered anyways, it would be a good strategy.

 

[Foxtorres]

Zomfg

I can't recall any tournament I can take seriously that allowed items. Not to mention most people will just run around and abuse the items rather than fight. Seeing as how same items are just way overpowered anyways, it would be a good strategy.

run around abusing items? not if you set it on very low... that and regulate the items but anyway, I concur, I cant take a tourny with items too seriously. and im pretty sure Sakurai knows how we play tourny's, so he aint worried about balancing the items Hahaha! thats just silleh.

 

[flashfox]

Well, the thing is, if this game isn't deep, thats fine. As long as the game is relatively balanced and allows for people to win by out-skilling the opponents, everything should be good. But, if the game turns out to be unbalanced and people can win by well... random button mashing, then we have a problem, don't we?

 

[Spellman]

I can't recall any tournament I can take seriously that allowed items. Not to mention most people will just run around and abuse the items rather than fight. Seeing as how same items are just way overpowered anyways, it would be a good strategy.

That's just how you play a game with items. It would be nice in Brawl if some of the items power was lowered. Not hammers, your disadvantage is your speed and only being able to jump once. But chucking Star Rod's around is an uncomfortable level lethal. But that's the point of picking up an item, to give you a boost in power in some aspect. So in Brawl, if they downgrade items, there still has to be powerful ones, and those are the ones that people are going to complain about.

So I can't recall any competitive item games period, it's just kind of a wish of mine that two types of competitive players develop, ones who play without items and ones who play with them.

 

[NES n00b]

Items are off because items can explode on your head or when you are attacking. That is the real reason.

I don't think you charging a smash attack to edgeguard and then a bo-omb appears in front of you = it is your fault and that your opponent knows how to use items better. >_>

 

[Shishou]

That's just how you play a game with items. It would be nice in Brawl if some of the items power was lowered. Not hammers, your disadvantage is your speed and only being able to jump once. But chucking Star Rod's around is an uncomfortable level lethal. But that's the point of picking up an item, to give you a boost in power in some aspect. So in Brawl, if they downgrade items, there still has to be powerful ones, and those are the ones that people are going to complain about.

So I can't recall any competitive item games period, it's just kind of a wish of mine that two types of competitive players develop, ones who play without items and ones who play with them.

Items will always bring the luck factor in too much. Such as you are pummeling on someone and an item spawns right next to you as your opponent is getting up. You get hammer and BAM they are done.

If luck plays a big portion in the way a game is played, it is hard to consider it competitive.

 

[_Phloat_]

What I would LOVE to see is both sans items and "item-inclusive" tournaments... I am honestly annoyed to death by all the so-called l33ts who claim that items ruin a match by making it all luck... If they were as l33t as they said they were, they'd know how to compensate for an opponent that uses items to wit's end... That's all I have to say on the subject.

So say people learn to use items. So then people learn to counter items. They have aquired the skill to use items, and they can stop them most of the time

It is still down to luck who gets the item.

There are ways around it, but items in melee are not fair for many reasons, a huge one being the explosive crates and capsules.

 

[Spellman]

Items will always bring the luck factor in too much. Such as you are pummeling on someone and an item spawns right next to you as your opponent is getting up. You get hammer and BAM they are done.

If luck plays a big portion in the way a game is played, it is hard to consider it competitive.

He shouldn't have let himself get beat to the ground in the first place. If he were more skilled, he would have pummelled YOU to the ground, and took the hammer.

 

[Shishou]

He shouldn't have let himself get beat to the ground in the first place. If he were more skilled, he would have pummelled YOU to the ground, and took the hammer.

Even the best players still get hit. Items are just not a true skill based thing.

Sure some items can be used in a skillful way, such as the fan. But for the most part they are just luck factor.

 

[NES n00b]

Have you ever had a crate land on you then explode? No luck there. . . . .nope. <_<

 

[Igneous42]

I say this having never been really more than a casual player but really stilol consider it.

Is it really that bad thing if Nintendo changed this game to be more about strategy than technical skill?

as Gimpy put it brawl is changed "making it more about intelligent, zone-based play than technical, finger-blistering ability when compared to Melee"

And it's strange that all ya pros out there seem to act like this is a bad thing. doesn't this just further differentiate smash bros from other fighters? Smash bros is not a normal one on one fighter, and thats why I like it. Sure I love me the soul calibur and tekken and all that good stuff, but Smash stands worlds above those for me.

With melee's pro scene players made it more like a normal fighter, one on one matches, no items and it's more about technical skill then clever planning and strategical thinking. While thats not a bad thing, I think making it more about strategy will just make it more unique and in the end more fun.

People also act like it's such a big deal if more people get good. Why is that? Are you gonna be mad at players who weren't pro until brawl? I like a good challenge and while I don't like random factors to decide my matches (so I'd prefer items off for competitive play, in brawl or melee) I do like it when my opponent can put up a fight. At EforAll I purposely stood in the same lines as the pro players there, knowing full well i'd probably lose. But it was better to lose and have a challenging match than to win with ease (like most of my matches were when I wasn't fighting said pro's). The more good players the merrier IMO especially with this gaming going online.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I doubt anyone would say that there is absolutely no skill in items, but you also cannot say there is not a luck factor, and a large one at that.

If a pokeball appears at your opponents feet and they get a good pokemon, or at least something like Unown that will mess you up pretty badly, then there was not much you can do about it.

That is a completely different story than grabbing a warp star and suiciding with it.

Either way, some items are far too luck based for me. I'd rather not go try to pull an fsmash and then a crate appear right in front of me, and then explode when I hit it. In single player, especially event matches, I can't count the times a bob-omb has been the death of me because of it's placement and timing.

 

[NES n00b]

Casual view stuff

Melee is one of the least technical fighters. Every fighting game has strategic elements. Smash is no exception. Melee's techs allowed new strategies that made the fighter deep.

Techs are not only about combos and junk like that. There are also that allow strategic options. Removing techs =/= more strategy.

 

[Spellman]

Even the best players still get hit. Items are just not a true skill based thing.

Sure some items can be used in a skillful way, such as the fan. But for the most part they are just luck factor.

Still, in that situation, it's unfortunate that they weren't playing as agressively as the other player at that given point, or they would have been holding the hammer.

The best players are allowed to get hit. The best players should be allowed to lose for their mistakes too. There is a "best Poker player", and he loses sometimes.

How does Bowser beat the industructable Fox with his giant-slow-power? Maybe he could grab a Bob-Omb, run at Fox, and when he goes to put his reflector up, whamo, you chuck the bomb the other way and you forward smash him. You just don't encounter those kinds of situations in no-item play. Everybody just focuses on the horrible travesty's that could happen like a crate exploding or an item spawning too close to another player. A crate exploding and killing someone, well, that's their fault for letting their damage get so high that the explosion would prove to be fatal, and also their fault for deciding to attack when they did. Any situation in Smash Bros. you can think of, you put yourself there or your opponent put you there because they played the match better.

I watch no item games and they are entertaining. Especially when you watch the finals of a tournament and watch them use all their techniques as best as they can. I play them too, my friends love the Final Destination, No Items philosophy. I use Marth or Link and do just fine. That setting of play is just one of many ways that Smash Bros. can be played. Playing with items, there is a whole other layer to the game, more things to think about, more mistakes that can be made, and more punishment for playing shoddy. Sometimes this means quicker matches, so be it.

I stand by my comment. There should be two strands of competitive players. Or maybe 3. Or 4. The options and settings are there for a reason, you know.

 

[Igneous42]

Melee is one of the least technical fighters. Every fighting game has strategic elements. Smash is no exception. Melee's techs allowed new strategies that made the fighter deep.

Techs are not only about combos and junk like that. There are also that allow strategic options. Removing techs =/= more strategy.

Yeah there is strategy to using the more technical stuff, but that technical stuff still truns out to count for more than the strategy does. A person who only uses basic techniques but is great at strategy still probably won't win against a person who uses only mediocre strategy but has lots of technical skill. Removing (or rather lowering) the technical skill required will just make it easier for more people to play on equal level, and people act like thats such a bad thing.

 

[Igneous42]

Still, in that situation, it's unfortunate that they weren't playing as agressively as the other player at that given point, or they would have been holding the hammer.

The best players are allowed to get hit. The best players should be allowed to lose for their mistakes too. There is a "best Poker player", and he loses sometimes.

How does Bowser beat the industructable Fox with his giant-slow-power? Maybe he could grab a Bob-Omb, run at Fox, and when he goes to put his reflector up, whamo, you chuck the bomb the other way and you forward smash him. You just don't encounter those kinds of situations in no-item play. Everybody just focuses on the horrible travesty's that could happen like a crate exploding or an item spawning too close to another player. A crate exploding and killing someone, well, that's their fault for letting their damage get so high that the explosion would prove to be fatal, and also their fault for deciding to attack when they did. Any situation in Smash Bros. you can think of, you put yourself there or your opponent put you there because they played the match better.

I watch no item games and they are entertaining. Especially when you watch the finals of a tournament and watch them use all their techniques as best as they can. I play them too, my friends love the Final Destination, No Items philosophy. I use Marth or Link and do just fine. That setting of play is just one of many ways that Smash Bros. can be played. Playing with items, there is a whole other layer to the game, more things to think about, more mistakes that can be made, and more punishment for playing shoddy. Sometimes this means quicker matches, so be it.

I stand by my comment. There should be two strands of competitive players. Or maybe 3. Or 4. The options and settings are there for a reason, you know.

personally I have to disagree, and I am a casual player. But Items whole intent is to give someone an advantage over another person. And I love items, their fun and interesting, but not in a really serious competative match. Because the fact of the matter is your wrong. How did I put myself in the place if I use sword spin to edge fight someone and a bomb omb spawns on my head/in my attack?

err sorry for double post.....

 

[NES n00b]

Yeah there is strategy to using the more technical stuff, but that technical stuff still truns out to count for more than the strategy does. A person who only uses basic techniques but is great at strategy still probably won't win against a person who uses only mediocre strategy but has lots of technical skill. Removing (or rather lowering) the technical skill required will just make it easier for more people to play on equal level, and people act like thats such a bad thing.

No. . . . ."basic" stuff does not cut it in any competitive thing out there. Not in sports and not in videogames. If you can't control your character, you can't execute your strategies. Do people complain that there is too much micromanagement in strategy games? That would be funny to hear that it should be more about strategy in strategy games, though.

It is a bad thing because there is actually "less strategy" involved. Think about if you took everyone's movesets besides dash attack and sheilding. It would be less technical. You just have to press left or right and the a button. The game would be more about if you could space dash attacks, havee proper timing, and learn when to attack and when to sheild. Would this make the game anymore strategical because you don't have to push as many buttons? The answer is obviously no. There is a certain bar of technical skill in videogames needed for a game to be deep.

 

[Spellman]

personally I have to disagree, and I am a casual player. But Items whole intent is to give someone an advantage over another person. And I love items, their fun and interesting, but not in a really serious competative match. Because the fact of the matter is your wrong. How did I put myself in the place if I use sword spin to edge fight someone and a bomb omb spawns on my head/in my attack?

err sorry for double post.....

Shoulda forward smashed or let your opponent back on the platform if that wouldn't prove to be useful. Items will not spawn over thin air.

However, I guess I'll give you a point for that, there is a small piece of luck that you can blame for that, but if you've kept your damage low for the match, you should be able to survive said attack and continue to pursue defeating your opponent.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

You're concerned that people are thinking positively about brawl?

I guess that's a huge cause for concern...

I mean its almost as bad as being worried that too many people think christmas is good!

 

[Igneous42]

No. . . . ."basic" stuff does not cut it in any competitive thing out there. Not in sports and not in videogames. If you can't control your character, you can't execute your strategies. Do people complain that there is too much micromanagement in strategy games? That would be funny to hear that it should be more about strategy in strategy games, though.

It is a bad thing because there is actually "less strategy" involved. Think about if you took everyone's movesets besides dash attack and sheilding. It would be less technical. You just have to press left or right and the a button. The game would be more about if you could space dash attacks, havee proper timing, and learn when to attack and when to sheild. Would this make the game anymore strategical because you don't have to push as many buttons? The answer is obviously no. There is a certain bar of technical skill in videogames needed for a game to be deep.

when I say basic I obviously don't mean like a handicapped player playing. Lets say this, if melee was exactly the same except it didn't have wave dashing or L-cancling would it automatically be a crappy mario party game? IMO things like DI and crouch canceling can't really be called advanced techs, it's things that should seem obvious to do in the first place.

Cause really all these people are complaining about how brawl is gonna suck or not be deep enough but all that was really removed was things that were glitches to begin with.

and spellman, items can randomly spawn anywhere actually. Items are cheap, they were made to be thats their entire purpose, thats why the ability to turn them off is there.

 

[Red Exodus]

What I would LOVE to see is both sans items and "item-inclusive" tournaments... I am honestly annoyed to death by all the so-called l33ts who claim that items ruin a match by making it all luck... If they were as l33t as they said they were, they'd know how to compensate for an opponent that uses items to wit's end... That's all I have to say on the subject.

How is a random capsule landing on your attack using wit?

How is losing thousands of dollars in a tournament to random BS items NOT a valid reason to remove them?

Imagine having people get frustrated and quit the tournament scene because some random item keeps falling on them while they have absolutely no chance to protect themselves from them.

 

[NES n00b]

when I say basic I obviously don't mean like a handicapped player playing. Lets say this, if melee was exactly the same except it didn't have wave dashing or L-cancling would it automatically be a crappy mario party game? IMO things like DI and crouch canceling can't really be called advanced techs, it's things that should seem obvious to do in the first place.

Cause really all these people are complaining about how brawl is gonna suck or not be deep enough but all that was really removed was things that were glitches to begin with.

l cancelling is not a glitch of any kind, wavedashing is an exploit, FC is not a glitch, DJC is not a glitch, short hopping and fast falling is not a glitch, ledgehopping is not a glitch, and combos are not a glitch. All of these add strategic elements besides l cancelling (without it though, there would be too much lag to use arials effectively to approach. The game would be much more campy and less deep so the simple solution would be to reduce the lag in Brawl which they did along with the new lcancel.) and maybe combos (there is some in that should you go for more damage or get them off the edge for an edgeguard, where will they DI so I know what to do next, etc).

Without wavedashing, it would still be deep yes. Without lcanceling, alot of things wouldn't work and alot of characters totally useless so yeah, that was pretty important. If the lag was the same with lcancelling but not pressing a button, sure it would be as deep.

 

[Spellman]

How is a random capsule landing on your attack using wit?

How is losing thousands of dollars in a tournament to random BS items NOT a valid reason to remove them?

Imagine having people get frustrated and quit the tournament scene because some random item keeps falling on them while they have absolutely no chance to protect themselves from them.

Certainly if there were two types of Smash Bros. tournaments, then you could choose the one you would go to. An item on tournament and an item off tournament.

People who go to the items on tournament would know the inherent risk and the added randomness that comes with the package, and will have practiced to deal with the situations that could happen, and can comfortably say they knew what was coming if they blew up thanks to an exploding capsule.

People who go to the no items tournament would know that they're up against the force of the characters abilities and the talent it takes to wield them properly.

 

[Igneous42]

l cancelling is not a glitch of any kind, wavedashing is an exploit, FC is not a glitch, DJC is not a glitch, short hopping and fast falling is not a glitch, ledgehopping is not a glitch, and combos are not a glitch. All of these add strategic elements besides l cancelling (without it though, there would be too much lag to use arials effectively to approach. The game would be much more campy and less deep so the simple solution would be to reduce the lag in Brawl which they did along with the new lcancel.) and maybe combos (there is some in that should you go for more damage or get them off the edge for an edgeguard, where will they DI so I know what to do next, etc).

Without wavedashing, it would still be deep yes. Without lcanceling, alot of things wouldn't work and alot of characters totally useless so yeah, that was pretty important. If the lag was the same with lcancelling but not pressing a button, sure it would be as deep.

how many of those things that you just named were removed from brawl....
thats really what i'm saying. They didn't remove the majority of the stuff that makes the game good, they removed like one thing (wavedashing) and people are acting like this game is gonna be another mario party.

I'm by no means saying this game should remove all that stuff, that'd be stupid. But then why are so many people worried that this isn't going to be a deep game?

 

[NES n00b]

Ok, so we got into the heart of the matter. It seems that you want "glitches" removed and do not care about the game being more technical.

Well whatever, what ever happens in Brawl, happens.

 

[Igneous42]

Ok, so we got into the heart of the matter. It seems that you want "glitches" removed and do not care about the game being more technical.

Well whatever, what ever happens in Brawl, happens.

Sure I guess you could say that. But is that a bad thing? Wanting glitches removed?

 

[greenblob]

No one's saying that glitches are good. We're saying that we want Brawl to be as deep or deeper than Melee.

 

[Shishou]

Everyone acts as if wavedashing is completely gone. We don't know this yet. What we know is that the old way of Wavedashing is gone.

They could make it an actual move now that is more simple to perform. Dodge and hit a directional during the dodge maybe?

 

[Chaosblade77]

I don't think it matters if the "advanced techniques" are there or not.

Some, not all, but some, of the advanced techniques were not intentionally programmed into the game. Wavedashing is of course a great example. It came from combining two aspects of the physics system in a way that was not expected to be done. It was not programmed intentionally, but the question is does it make it a glitch?

Not necessarily, it's just the way the game behaves when that happens, and not much more can be said. For a casual player, why does it matter if it's there or not? It's not like a casual player is going to play and lose to pros constantly.

Furthermore, just look at what people are saying, the game can be deep without all of the advanced techs from Melee. Were people worried about a deeper game before Melee was released? Were people looking for exploits in the system on the first demos that they got their hands on?

The game has gotten more competitive, and the people who are competitive are going to have the exploits, advanced techniques, glitches, or whatever you want to call them under their belt, so it doesn't matter if they are there or not. I doubt there will be anything gamebreaking in Brawl, and we already see that there is a lot more character balance so far. I think the competitive scene will change a lot, but not become any "worse" than it is now, due to more balancing. It's more likely for more characters to be used.

 

[Igneous42]

No one's saying that glitches are good. We're saying that we want Brawl to be as deep or deeper than Melee.

Is removing one move gonna make it not as deep? What else has been removed? L-canceling has been changed but not removed.