What if?... (My concern with the mindset of the smash community)

[Level 9]

Hey there everyone! it's been quite some time sense I was last able to come buy here... (No thanks to my old ISP Net Zero droping my service's while continueing to charge me for it... ... And the resulting cancelation fee that they just HAD to insist on charging me as well...) [/endrant]

Anyhoo... Those of you that MAY remember me might recall my annoying love/habit of playing the devils advocate in most of my longer post... As well as the ungodlly amount of "..." lines that accommodated them... I have yet to brake that habit... sorry...

Anyway to the point of this post...

I have quite a bit of concern recently with the mindset of the smash community wean it comes to the topic of competitive play in Brawl & the general expectation that it "IS" going to be deeper in overall gameplay mechanics than those that came before it... Well... What if it's not?...

What if there are vary few possible game play mechanics to exploit?... Bare in mind we have only brought Melee to the place it is abit ironically thanks to the fact that there where vary few restrictions put in place to make sure that we played the game the way the developers had intended...

If that's changed to much in Brawl how do you think the competitive community would cope?...

Obviously it would in no real way make Brawl a bad game to play & enjoy... But with the communitys prime focus on "Far competitive play" I'm just wondering if we would be prepared to... oh say... make random items a factor in tournament play to help cope with a slower paced smash... [/shock][/horror][/gasp]

If not then how well do you think it would hold up as a "competitive fighter" in general if we don't change...?

 

[Corax]

Well based off Gimpy's first impression thread I think its safe to say everything will remain the same on that end.
From the sounds of the recent talk around the forums items will most likely remain off during play, but who knows for sure. MLG could just decide to have items on for brawl.

I'm actually really worried about the introduction of idiots like the ones in xbox live. Those guys just drive me crazy and take away the competitive fun of the game. But then again, my concerns could just be a passing phantom. Who knows.

 

[drengist]

I've been wondering the same question. It seems like the game developers have really focused on reducing the possible exploits with the new game mechanics. That doesn't mean we're not going to find any useful tricks - there's always some flaws. What is going to happen is that the gap between n00bs and l33ts will get smaller. The way the pro players are going to play is going to chance as well. Roll spamming is what I think will be characteristic to high level playing, believe it or not. I'm not going to say the ones that are good in Melee aren't going to enjoy this game. Brawl is a whole different game.

 

[Bli33ard]

In my view, this whole debate is like saying you play well on a grass tennis court, but how will you fare on a clay court? Or a carpet one?

 

[Team Giza]

Team Brawl items on for Evo 2008.

 

[Mama]

VERY not vary. I don't like having to go to my cereal box and busting out my decoder ring every time I face a large chunk of text >.>

Anyhoo. You should think deeper than where you are now. Ask yourself why would they remove advanced techniques.

Why : To cater to casual players who are the majority.
Why : because most of them don't know how to do the advanced techniques so to make things fair they'd just take them out.
Well don't you think that the fact that the competitive players are the minority sort of disproves that very ideal? I could understand dumbing it down for casuals if the majority played a certain way. Then newbies would step into the scene where everyone plays a certain way. But thats not the case.

Competitive players make up a small percentage of Smashers. There would be no need to eliminate the advanced techniques if so few people know of them. Get what I mean? It would be unnecessary to do something like that. What they're doing is making it easier for people to play at the level you see in the how to play video. Thats it.

-But they took out wavedashing

Its not so much they took it out. Its more that it got killed in the process of changing engines. The new engine is momentum based while Melee's was not. In the new engine air dodging is based on the momentum the character was moving meaning you don't control your air dodge so much anymore. That means that you can't wave dash anymore. Not wave dashing was removed but the tools needed to do so were. Wave landing is still in though

-L-canceling is gone too.

In case you missed it L-canceling is confirmed and is just different in execution but buffed in effectiveness. Now you have to fast fall before the aerial and it reduces all lag. Those are really the major concerns.

I know you're just asking what if. But this is going to turn into another "Nintendo wants to do away with yadayada" Threads. You'll see more people posting about Brawl being worse and less deep. I dunno what forum you've been on but over here at Smashboards theres more people whining for no reason than there are people actually thinking things over. The smarter people don't even post anymore. I myself am just bored.

 

[allaboutthegames]

What I would LOVE to see is both sans items and "item-inclusive" tournaments... I am honestly annoyed to death by all the so-called l33ts who claim that items ruin a match by making it all luck... If they were as l33t as they said they were, they'd know how to compensate for an opponent that uses items to wit's end... That's all I have to say on the subject.

 

[Mama]

What I would LOVE to see is both sans items and "item-inclusive" tournaments... I am honestly annoyed to death by all the so-called l33ts who claim that items ruin a match by making it all luck... If they were as l33t as they said they were, they'd know how to compensate for an opponent that uses items to wit's end... That's all I have to say on the subject.

You'll understand the way we see it when you get better. Just don't go closing your mind to the advanced techniques of Brawl. Also I agree that two types of tournaments would be interesting but I'd only see the Smash Ball making it

 

[Frey]

If any of you played gunz, you'd know that even though the game seemed simple at start. more stuff became clearer as people were better, there will be more abilities but youll need to find them.

 

[Team Giza]

If any of you played gunz, you'd know that even though the game seemed simple at start. more stuff became clearer as people were better, there will be more abilities but youll need to find them.

Most people who use advance techs in Gunz are ******* who like to believe they are good. I played that game. I would butterfly, space invader, air launch combos, and do all sort of tricks. I think Gunz is the biggest example of advanced tactics nearly destroying a community though. Because people thought if they could butterfly correctly and do it constantly that they deserved to win every time. And when I would beat them without butterflying I would get accused of cheating and kicked.

I can understand who you are trying to make the point that tactics that you discover on the way can make the game a better experience overall... but I am not sure that Gunz is the best game to use as an example.

 

[Blackshadow]

Well I say...SHUT THE **** UP WITH THESE STUPID ****ING THREADS! Jeez it gets to the point of me mindlessly banging my head against my monitor because of all these topics about the community not coping with the removal of advance techs and such and such; here's a news flash:


BRAWL IS GOING TO BE A NEW GAME! THE COMMUNITY WILL ADAPT! STOP THESE THREADS BEFORE EVERYONE'S HEADS EXPLODE! ITS NOT FUNNY ANYMORE! RED TEXT HURTS MY EYES!


...Whew. Needed to do that.

 

[Reyairia]

As long as there are better players than others there will always be competition. The only ones complaining are the cheaters that depend on glitches and overpowered characters anyway, so I'm personally glad that Sakurai is giving them the middle finger.

 

[Blackshadow]

Oh no you didn't.

 

[Level 9]

Whoh... 6 replies already! 0.o

-EDIT- **** these topics seam to grow fast! o.0

Well I'll just have to try to talk to everyone the best I can...

Corax, It actually was Gimpy Fish's thread that gave me some of the concerns I have now... As what he was describing sounded to me like they had put quite a bit of work into makeing a few things more easy to pull off in normal "expected" game play that could interfere with those that think outside the box... IE. It's now a bit more easy to grab onto a ledge... (Something a programmer would expect you to be trying to do) but if it's your intent to do something crazy like fall off the edge intentionally in order to attack your opponent with an airborne attack instead of the perfectly fine ledge attack they've put into the game well... You know...

drengist, That's my fear for the competitive side of the community... If that line is narrowed down to the point where black & white start looking a little gray it could change the competitive seen for worse... I can't think of any competitive player out there who would gladly go & fork out money to compete in a tournament where a novice with little time spent on the game has a virtually equal shot at winning despite his/her effort & time spent training & preping...

Even though that varry thing might help bost the tournament seen in numbers with players who would otherwise feal ill equipped to join, It would also cause smash to lose the respect it's competitive players have worked so hard to get...

Bli33ard, That's exactly what it's like... I'm concerned that we are so comfortable with the grass that the clay just won't do & the carpet won't feel the same...

Mama, Thanks for that point of view and I agree with your logic... But as you know what I'm asking here is a what if it's worse then we thought case & melee remains the competitive choice despite where Nintendo & the tournament seen wants to take us... In otherwords "Is it the death of our ideal competitive smash?"

PS: Sorry I have a REALLY hard time remembering simple shapes like letters, and unfortunately spellcheckers can only catch so much...

allaboutthegames, I could not agree more... That mindset is exactly what I'm afraid could end smash if pepole arn't willing to make exceptions on there like's & disslikes list...

 

[red stone]

just remember that we can always study frames. they can't take that away from us

 

[Level 9]

True enough red stone...

Anyahoo... Blackshadow69... You speek like a veteran who's seen to much **** war... As Mama pointed out most of the members don't usually talk in this kind of topic unless they're board as hell or think they can somehow make a point so shockingly obviously true that even the most n00b'ish n00b can't argue with there logic...

IE. The never ending war at the beginning of the ending of the beginning of some random point in time...

... Or bowth... ... But ether way it's more or less just a creative way of wasting time & giving ourselves some non-answer answers until we can find out for ourselves if there true or not when Brawl eventually comes out...

Just don't spend too much time on the battlefield unless you want to go two chickens short of a roster sitting atop two chickens... Or something to that effect... ... Need sleep... -_-

 

[Gilgamesh]

IE. The never ending war at the beginning of the ending of the beginning of some random point in time...

Just don't spend too much time on the battlefield unless you want to go two chickens short of a roster sitting atop two chickens... Or something to that effect... ... Need sleep... -_-

What!? Did the acid just kick in?

think they can somehow make a point so shockingly obviously true that even the most n00b'ish n00b can't argue with there logic...

... I have to point out here that idiots will always find a way to argue with everything, even if it's perfect logic.

 

[maxieman]

^^ yeah theres this guy on WoW forums who supposedly proved the earth is flat because he can see a certain distance without it being hidden by a curving horizon.... lol ^^

 

[jdub03]

WTH was that ^ Anyway. These topics are getting old. I cant wait for brawl to come out so we dont have to see these lame topics ever again. Whether its good for tournys or not ill be playing simply because it has online play. There will always be advanced tactics. Noobs are noobs for a reason. This wont change in brawl. The good will be great and the noobs will be **** out of luck.

 

[Gilgamesh]

WTH was that ^ Anyway. These topics are getting old. I cant wait for brawl to come out so we dont have to see these lame topics ever again. Whether its good for tournys or not ill be playing simply because it has online play. There will always be advanced tactics. Noobs are noobs for a reason. This wont change in brawl. The good will be great and the noobs will be **** out of luck.

This was not a lame topic, it presented a genuine concern and he did it most politely, which is a plus.

The only downside was that there was at least other 100 topics made about this, about 80% of them already closed.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm pleasantly surprised that this thread has somehow managed to not become a casual vs competitive thread. Everything seems to be quite civil in here overall.

What if there are vary few possible game play mechanics to exploit?...

Well we have a form of l-canceling, we have a form of wavedashing, we can still pivot (although we are not sure how), we still have moonwalking, and we have the float cancel. I'd say if those were the only advanced techniques, we'd still be fine. I mean look at the crazy Captain Falcon players now. The only advanced technique they really use is l-canceling (well, and moonwalking). So we'll be alright as is, especially seeing all the potential options for the new air dodge.

If that's changed to much in Brawl how do you think the competitive community would cope?...

The competitive community will be alright. As long as the game is popular, there will be a strong competitive scene. A LOT of peopled complained about Halo 2 being dumbed down, and a lot of the pros left because of it; however, did that affect the competitive scene? Hell no, new people replaced the old who left and the old pros that were still around learned to adapt.

 

[jdub03]

This was not a lame topic, it presented a genuine concern and he did it most politely, which is a plus.

The only downside was that there was at least other 100 topics made about this, about 80% of them already closed.

Thats my point. Its been discussed to death. Theres nothing more to say about the topic. Everything that could be said in this topic has been said in the hundreds of other similar topics.

 

[Level 9]

Actually Gilgamesh this is disturbing result of what happens wean your going on your third night strate without sleep... >.-

Starbucks... RIDE THE BEAN!

MookieRah, That... Is some of that shockingly obviously true point making I was just talking about... ****... Well... That... Really helped me out just now...

And while I'm a little pissed at myself for not thinking like that sooner & thus making this thread, Sense I've already made myself the fool I might as well address my final concern anyway...

Provided Brawl is in more ways then not dumbed down comparatively to Melee, don't you worry that it might affect the image of the smash community?...

I know it didn't in the case of games like Halo 2 but bare in mind we are talking about a game here where dimwitted princess get into hand to hand combat with large talking animals from outerspace... We don't exactly have that doom & gloom end of the would kind of feel that most individuals in our society seem to somehow think makes a game exceptable above the 18 year old threshold...

Now when we tell someone that we play Smash competitively its mostly ok to all except to maybe someone who's never owned a nintendo console... Don't you worry that the image of smash's professionalism could be tarnished or lost...?

 

[Aninymouse]

VERY not vary. I don't like having to go to my cereal box and busting out my decoder ring every time I face a large chunk of text >.>

Anyhoo. You should think deeper than where you are now. Ask yourself why would they remove advanced techniques.

Why : To cater to casual players who are the majority.
Why : because most of them don't know how to do the advanced techniques so to make things fair they'd just take them out.
Well don't you think that the fact that the competitive players are the minority sort of disproves that very ideal? I could understand dumbing it down for casuals if the majority played a certain way. Then newbies would step into the scene where everyone plays a certain way. But thats not the case.

Competitive players make up a small percentage of Smashers. There would be no need to eliminate the advanced techniques if so few people know of them. Get what I mean? It would be unnecessary to do something like that. What they're doing is making it easier for people to play at the level you see in the how to play video. Thats it.

-But they took out wavedashing

Its not so much they took it out. Its more that it got killed in the process of changing engines. The new engine is momentum based while Melee's was not. In the new engine air dodging is based on the momentum the character was moving meaning you don't control your air dodge so much anymore. That means that you can't wave dash anymore. Not wave dashing was removed but the tools needed to do so were. Wave landing is still in though

-L-canceling is gone too.

In case you missed it L-canceling is confirmed and is just different in execution but buffed in effectiveness. Now you have to fast fall before the aerial and it reduces all lag. Those are really the major concerns.

I know you're just asking what if. But this is going to turn into another "Nintendo wants to do away with yadayada" Threads. You'll see more people posting about Brawl being worse and less deep. I dunno what forum you've been on but over here at Smashboards theres more people whining for no reason than there are people actually thinking things over. The smarter people don't even post anymore. I myself am just bored.

QFE. Here, here! A hundred huzzahs, good sir. We are in complete agreement.

 

[Xarias]

Provided Brawl is in more ways then not dumbed down comparatively to Melee, don't you worry that it might affect the image of the smash community?...

I know it didn't in the case of games like Halo 2 but bare in mind we are talking about a game here where dimwitted princess get into hand to hand combat with large talking animals from outerspace... We don't exactly have that doom & gloom end of the would kind of feel that most individuals in our society seem to somehow think makes a game exceptable above the 18 year old threshold...

Now when we tell someone that we play Smash competitively its mostly ok to all except to maybe someone who's never owned a nintendo console... Don't you worry that the image of smash's professionalism could be tarnished or lost...?

Why does it matter? Do you play for respect or for fun? I play because I like Nintendo characters, and its a fun game I enjoy playing. I don't really give a flying fvck if people think its simple or 'kiddy' or whatever else.

Don't live life trying to please strangers.



Also, First Post! Yay.

 

[Mama]

I don't think we've got anything to worry about. As Mookierah said (where does the name Mookierah come from? I saw this wierd gif picture the other day...) there are already a lot of the technical things in Melee in Brawl right now. The competitive scene wont be hurt at all. As we all know the gap between competitive players and casuals wont change at all. Its mainly dedication and experience as well as the play to win mentality that will keep the competitive scene alive regardless. But I honestly don't think theres anything to worry about with Brawl. Right now a lot of people are going through shock. They'll come around.

 

[Level 9]

Why does it matter? Do you play for respect or for fun? I play because I like Nintendo characters, and its a fun game I enjoy playing. I don't really give a flying fvck if people think its simple or 'kiddy' or whatever else.

Don't live life trying to please strangers.

Actually that right there is exactly my mindset... But bare in mind it's not a very common one in reality despite what most would like to claim/think about themselves...

I like smash because I have grown up playing video games and just tend to look at the ones like the super mario series as a formula that I know I like... But there sadly isn't much dismissing that for someone whose never played a game series like super mario it's pretty hard to think of it seriously when there's a kiddieish cartoony character on the box that you can't identify with...

Think about it... When you browse the movie section of a store do you actually pick up a box covered in disney like looking characters with the rating G-PG and think to yourself "Hey this looks like something i'd like to see" ?...

I'm just concerned that smash could fall into that spectrum where the only new smashers we'll get are kids...

I mean Pokemon's an ok game to right, but would you go to one of those tournaments surrounded by kids & angery looking parents who think of you as some kind of child molester in the back of there minds?...

I hope that Mama's statement holds true...

 

[rockmace]

those "pro" players, which need "mechanic exploits" don't deserve to be called pro players, in my humble opinion.

I agree with you, that saying that gameplay will be deeper is too son to be taken as true, but it has some sort of sense:

I'm not sure but I think that when melee first was launched, not much people were avidly looking for exploits, let's say, wavedash, right? It took them some time to popularize it.

this time, even before the game is released, man, even before is finished, they are already looking how to improve the game! this could lead to an deeper advanced game, indeed.

don't worry about it, a good player still can find his way to victory, with help of exploits, or with bare skill.

 

[jdub03]

im pretty sure those that are worthy of the title pro would mop the floor with beginners and intermediates without exploits. Thats only a minor part of there game.

 

[Gilgamesh]

those "pro" players, which need "mechanic exploits" don't deserve to be called pro players, in my humble opinion.

I agree with you, that saying that gameplay will be deeper is too son to be taken as true, but it has some sort of sense:

I'm not sure but I think that when melee first was launched, not much people were avidly looking for exploits, let's say, wavedash, right? It took them some time to popularize it.

this time, even before the game is released, man, even before is finished, they are already looking how to improve the game! this could lead to an deeper advanced game, indeed.

don't worry about it, a good player still can find his way to victory, with help of exploits, or with bare skill.

Let's totally -not- go there. Again.

 

[Thedude3445]

Meh, so what if a lot of Brawl is different? It's Smash Bros, the fighting game with only a combo of 2 attack buttons per fighter, and you can jump through platforms while throwing randomly generated bombs, and that's why we're here. So if pros can't accpet the fact wavedashing is out, leave now. As for the n00bs who will indefinitely come to Brawl because of Sonic or Pikachu (hopefully the T rating will drive them away), get their friend copde, get your best fighter, and Pw3n them to death.

 

[Mama]

Meh, so what if a lot of Brawl is different? It's Smash Bros, the fighting game with only a combo of 2 attack buttons per fighter, and you can jump through platforms while throwing randomly generated bombs, and that's why we're here. So if pros can't accpet the fact wavedashing is out, leave now. As for the n00bs who will indefinitely come to Brawl because of Sonic or Pikachu (hopefully the T rating will drive them away), get their friend copde, get your best fighter, and Pw3n them to death.

Lol. "hopefully the T rating will drive them away"

I agree though. If people can't accept change just give up. Crying over the "depth" of Smash possibly being lost (even though its not). While I agree its a deep game in most aspects its pretty simple when you compare it to any other fighting game. What makes Smash deep runs deeper than technical things. While Brawl will maintain the technical aspect just as well as Melee I think the reduced speed will give way to newer things like up close Brawls that have more mind games involved. And Wavedashing is over rated...

 

[Level 9]

Wavedashing is over rated...

At what point & by whom did wavedashlng become the stereotypical rally call it is today anyway?... I mean it's hardly the most difficult thing to learn comparatively to most tactics...

Is it just the average point where most n00bs cry uncle & give up or something?...

Not to stray to far off topic... (Hopefully)

 

[Hydde]

Mookie rah / mama = posts of the thread. Follow their example.

What i find a little umpleasant is when someone says something like "its okay, we will find bugs/exploits and get the game deeper again".

Bugs and exploits are not what make a game a good one. In melee it was pure luck that this bugs and exploits enhanced the game so much.

Im just hoping that this time, we will learn to fight competitively and in a high level with the actual techs of the game... instead of turning Brawl into another mutant!.

Im not against those techs... i also used them, What i want to point out, is that we all need to change our mentality towards Brawl,,, and try to enjoy this new experience.

 

[NES n00b]

Isn't anything "new" a new experience?

lol, sorry. If Brawl is anything like Melee without advance techs (which it has some already so that won't happen), I wouldn't play it competitively, sorry. I do hope there are "new" things to unlock and uncover to have a "new," deeper experience. It is inevitable that there will be techs that weren't intended because seriously, I don't think the designers of the game just make a big list of what combinations allow for what tatics and "techs" in this metagame list. It is our job to discover "new" tatics, "new" techs, and new "gameplay" heights. You don't want the art or anything to wash over you, you want to participate in the "new" experience. Is that enough new for you and your rhetoric? =P

 

[Level 9]

Hydde, Thats exactly where I want the community to be too... MokieRah did help ease my mind quite a bit with his Halo 2 comparison but I still can't help but think just a bit that we smashers aren't quite THERE yet...

Smash was not intended to be to deep of a game in the firstplace, It owes quite a bit of its current popularity among competitive players to those exploits... If you where to remove any possible way to play Melee beyond what the development team had intended you would be left with frame counting, effectiveness comparing, and mind games that all revolve around a VERY basic game that would be so easy to pickup & play that no amount of training beyond reading a game FAQ article on "who can do what & who can counter it" would possibly make a difference in your game...

 

[Binx]

Hydde, Thats exactly where I want the community to be too... MokieRah did help ease my mind quite a bit with his Halo 2 comparison but I still can't help but think just a bit that we smashers aren't quite THERE yet...

Smash was not intended to be to deep of a game in the firstplace, It owes quite a bit of its current popularity among competitive players to those exploits... If you where to remove any possible way to play Melee beyond what the development team had intended you would be left with frame counting, effectiveness comparing, and mind games that all revolve around a VERY basic game that would be so easy to pickup & play that no amount of training beyond reading a game FAQ article on "who can do what & who can counter it" would possibly make a difference in your game...

I kind of disagree, I mean even without L canceling and wavedashing the game would just play differently it would still be deep, we really don't know which character specific techs were meant to be in the game but its safe to say the dev team knew marth would be able to do 2 aerials in the air, or fox would be able to jump out of his shine animation, they probably didn't think far enough ahead into waveshines and all that, but the tech chasing and chain grabbing and what not feels intentional.

 

[MookieRah]

Im just hoping that this time, we will learn to fight competitively and in a high level with the actual techs of the game... instead of turning Brawl into another mutant!

There was nothing inherently wrong with the AT's of Melee though, and while there would still be high level play with or without anything newer than what we know with Brawl currently, there is no reason to wish that no new unintentional factors come into being. Unless something is game breaking, then it should be alright.

Smash was not intended to be to deep of a game in the first place

Yet the complexities of DI, something that was intentionally put into the game, are EXTREME and require TONS of skill and experience to use effectively. Then there is teching, and extreme forms of teching in combination with DI that allows you to tech the ledge repeatedly.

It owes quite a bit of its current popularity among competitive players to those exploits...

The majority of AT's are character specific. The ones that aren't were pretty much intended. L-canceling, DI'ing, CCing, etc are all definitely not exploits, yet they are the major things that pushed the game forward. Beyond those and you get into things like shine related skills, but that only goes for Fox/Falco. A lot of these things aren't really exploits either. Is jumping out of a shine so bad? No. Is punching someone that fell to the ground to get them to stand bad? No. Is air dodging in the ground bad? Then why is the combination of these things wrong or exploits?

I'm going to go out on a limb that if any casual player discovered these things on accident and used them against their friends that they would think it's quite awesome. The problem comes when all these things are alien to them, and because it's so overwhelming they oppose it cause it's different from their view of the game.

 

[Spellman]

Provided Brawl is in more ways then not dumbed down comparatively to Melee, don't you worry that it might affect the image of the smash community?...
...
Now when we tell someone that we play Smash competitively its mostly ok to all except to maybe someone who's never owned a nintendo console... Don't you worry that the image of smash's professionalism could be tarnished or lost...?

The only "image" that we have is with each other as Super Smash Bros. players. Halo 3 players aren't taking breaks from playing Halo 3 just to see if we look as professional as they do. We don't really have an image, we're just playing a game. Nobody else really cares or looks up to us for it. It's a fun competitively game that we respect, nothing more.

Two excellent advanced techers is the same as two excellent regular players. It just saves us an extra step of learning.

But in a game of reflexes, precision, decision and action like Smash Bros., there is no issue about the difference between skilled players and rookies. Final Smash's were an issue at one point because it would suck if they dominated the game. However, since you have to compete to earn the power of the Smash Ball, and the fact that they do not automatically mean K.O. unless executed correctly, the issue fell flat and everything seems O.K. in that aspect.

 

[Shishou]

I find it funny how people think lack of things to abuse/AT make a game non-competitive.

What exactly makes a game competitive? Skill? Or the ability to do more difficult things not originally planned for the game?

I feel you can make any multiplayer game competitive, as long as it isn't so broken it is impossible to really play against most people.