What Ganon needs...

[GeZ]

Most important, no. It would be really nice, but the road to a better Ganon is paved with fixing his ass mobility. That's the most important.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Most important, no. It would be really nice, but the road to a better Ganon is paved with fixing his *** mobility. That's the most important.

The thing is, Ganon's mobility is based 90,000,000,150,000,100% on platforms.

His waveland covers a godly amount of distance.

I can definitely get behind buffing Ganon's mobility, but how would such a thing be done w/o breaking the character? (Then again, his recovery is likely to still be garbo forever, so I welcome any added mobility to the character)

Having more mobility would definitely be nice in the spacie MUs. Or against characters that can dance on Ganon's face in general as his defensive options are few. (And the few options available to him suck.)

As well as a longer graaaab, just saying. (WINK WINK HINT HINT. . . . . . FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS TRIFORCE LONGER GRAB REACH PLEASE!!!)

 

[GeZ]

The figuring out how is always the hard part.

 

[CORY]

That's not a bad idea, but what about acting out of it? How would it be canceled? Just curious.

i guess i was vague. think of it like urien's wall super from third strike. he just throws it out and it does its own thing.

i also agree on the grab. i think a lower grab is more important than longer, but he needs some better oos options, basically for the reasons you stated, shin.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Ganon needs more options to fight high pressure characters like Falco/Fox.

I don't want to be that guy who suggests armor on Ganon's everything because Falco lasers/pressure characters in general are dumb. lol.

I just hate that Ganon auto-loses to Spacies because it's damn near impossible to get anything started on them.

 

[Spralwers]

Start by getting used to reflecting lasers. The timing is twice as lenient in melee. It changes the match up a ton.

Ganon's punish game is brutal on spacies. Learn your up throw chaingrabs/follow ups. Arty vortex is also amazing. Speaking of which, I believe Arty did manage to take a game off M2K's Fox using Ganondorf. In my area, I always beat spacies unless they're the top level players (mattdotzeb, kdj, etc). And when I fight the top level players, its definitely clear I lose more because I'm still so new to smash than it is the match up. Ganon's punish game is so brutal on spacies that they need to play absolutely perfect in order to not get destroyed. I believe in melee, Fox and Falco are both 60/40 on Ganon. As Ganon's meta (particularly his punish game) develops, I wouldn't be surprised if the match up goes 55-45 or even 50-50, simply because of how crazy Ganon can punish spacies.

Fox and Falco's tech roll is pretty bad, which makes side B is perfect on them. For an easy guaranteed follow up, you can basically dash dance camp into dash attack. Their roll is the perfect distance for the DACUS to land on the sideways sweet spot. Wiz kick, past 55%, messes them up so bad. But if they tech in place or get up attack, you get the option to grab them, which puts them in an even worse position than if they tech rolled.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Start by getting used to reflecting lasers. The timing is twice as lenient in melee. It changes the match up a ton.

Ganon's punish game is brutal on spacies. Learn your up throw chaingrabs/follow ups. Arty vortex is also amazing. Speaking of which, I believe Arty did manage to take a game off M2K's Fox using Ganondorf. In my area, I always beat spacies unless they're the top level players (mattdotzeb, kdj, etc). And when I fight the top level players, its definitely clear I lose more because I'm still so new to smash than it is the match up. Ganon's punish game is so brutal on spacies that they need to play absolutely perfect in order to not get destroyed. I believe in melee, Fox and Falco are both 60/40 on Ganon. As Ganon's meta (particularly his punish game) develops, I wouldn't be surprised if the match up goes 55-45 or even 50-50, simply because of how crazy Ganon can punish spacies.

Fox and Falco's tech roll is pretty bad, which makes side B is perfect on them. For an easy guaranteed follow up, you can basically dash dance camp into dash attack. Their roll is the perfect distance for the DACUS to land on the sideways sweet spot. Wiz kick, past 55%, messes them up so bad. But if they tech in place or get up attack, you get the option to grab them, which puts them in an even worse position than if they tech rolled.

How do you deal with Falco's lasers? Powershielding them everytime isn't really viable since even if you do powershield one, Ganon's OoS options are too slow to really punish it effectively and Falco can just keep lasering,

 

[teluoborg]

The thing is, if you powershield something you don't have to suffer the shield drop lag so you can do everything oos, even jab or Ftilt.

 

[| Kailex |]

You could try sheilding them and wavedashing OoS, and if youre on a stage with platforms just jump onto the platforms.

 

[CORY]

also, the powershielding is useful for just making falco have to stop lasering you, himself. he'll either get hit or be forced to shine/shield it. if it gets shined, it's not the best option, but you can still use it as a break from his normal laser game, since he'll have to stop that due to the forced lag from reflection.

shielding and getting hit are the best for you, though, but just forcing him to have to recognize you can powershield it is helpful enough.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Damn, everyone in the pm ganon community spends too much time feeling sorry for their character and not enough time discussing ganon's strengths.

For all you space animal haters, here's something I've found works pretty well, particularly against falcos. fh uair, with the uair coming out immediately works wonders against falco's laser pressure. the fh jumps over lasers and the uair stops falco from jumping toward you. and from there, you have options. you can land into a wl, either towards them or away. or you could side-b before hitting the ground, if there's an opening. if you choose to dj, you can do another aerial, wl or side-b.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Damn, everyone in the pm ganon community spends too much time feeling sorry for their character and not enough time discussing ganon's strengths.

I just feel sorry about Warlock Punch.

Seriously though, we do spend way too much time as a community ******** about Ganon's flaws (I've been guilty of this as well) while ignoring how awesome he can truly be in the hands of someone who has put the time in.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I just feel sorry about Warlock Punch.

Seriously though, we do spend way too much time as a community *****ing about Ganon's flaws (I've been guilty of this as well) while ignoring how awesome he can truly be in the hands of someone who has put the time in.

I found this book called The Art of War from ancient China. Perhaps you've heard of it. Regardless, there's a passage where Sun Tzu discusses how true power can only be obtained from amplifying your strengths and minimizing your weaknesses. But he placed a lot more emphasis on the amplification of strength, for the pinnacle of power in fighting comes from your ability to effectively attack and counter attack. If you can only defend yourself, eventually you will fall if you don't have the means to properly destroy your foe.

The way I see it, this heavily relates to smash. In order for us to turn a character like ganon into a formidable contender, we must be able to effectively punish. Melee and project m are games that reward offensive play over defensive play. While we are a slower character that will most likely be on the defensive initially, we can only truly win by maximizing the damage we do in the little time we have on the offensive. It is therefore imperative to study ganon's strengths and know them as well as possible.

That's why right now I'm going through all of ganon's tough matchups in melee and writing down the best possible combos and punishes for every percent range my opponent is in. I'm also recording the best way to DI and SDI every move thrown at me. I'm hoping to see some major improvements in my tournament results when I finish this. When I finish doing this for melee, I'll start doing it for PM.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Damn, everyone in the pm ganon community spends too much time feeling sorry for their character and not enough time discussing ganon's strengths.

Not everybody does... This guy is calling for nerfs on some of Ganon's best new tools added in PM.
http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorf-needs-to-be-closer-to-melees-version.351757/

Silly threads aside, I'll have to try out using full hop up-airs against space animals. I don't really have a lot of experience against spacies as Ganon because I also play Dankey Kang and 0-death combos on spacies are fun.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Well that thread is oozing fraud and the op has no idea what he's talking about so I'm gonna go ahead and dismiss that opinion completely.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well that thread is oozing fraud and the op has no idea what he's talking about so I'm gonna go ahead and dismiss that opinion completely.

This is wise.

 

[teluoborg]

You know what people on this board spend too much time doing ? Posting in joke threads to keep this **** as disorganized as possible.

There's a suggestion thread for suggestions, a strategy thread for strategies and yet people keep posting in a dikembe mukubo thread that was bumped by someone that doesn't know any better.

And then everyone wonders why there aren't any constructive discussions.

 

[Scuba Steve]

You know what people on this board spend too much time doing ? Posting in joke threads to keep this **** as disorganized as possible.

There's a suggestion thread for suggestions, a strategy thread for strategies and yet people keep posting in a dikembe mukubo thread that was bumped by someone that doesn't know any better.

And then everyone wonders why there aren't any constructive discussions.

Well ****, man. MY BAD.

 

[White Light]

Ganons worst weakness is projectiles, not his recovery (di plus down b extra jump makes it not so terrible)
I propose either a projectile of his own (neutral b is like shadow claw/aura sphere, chargeable to a big lightning ball, or send out rapid small ones), or his neutral b could be a light armor that goes through projectiles until ganon gets grabbed, or hit by a melee attack.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Ganons worst weakness is projectiles, not his recovery (di plus down b extra jump makes it not so terrible)
I propose either a projectile of his own (neutral b is like shadow claw/aura sphere, chargeable to a big lightning ball, or send out rapid small ones)

Okay, please stop suggesting projectiles people. Ganondorf doesn't need a projectile. Heck, the PM people aren't even convinced that G-dorf even NEEDS to get a buff. Also, when people say his recovery is terrible, it isn't because their ability to get back to the stage is an issue. It's because his recovery is very predictable, which is a weakness that other characters suffer with as well. Also, the PMBR CAN'T ADD NEW PROJECTILES!!!!!! So please stop, please.

 

[White Light]

Okay, please stop suggesting projectiles people. Ganondorf doesn't need a projectile. Heck, the PM people aren't even convinced that G-dorf even NEEDS to get a buff. Also, when people say his recovery is terrible, it isn't because their ability to get back to the stage is an issue. It's because his recovery is very predictable, which is a weakness that other characters suffer with as well. Also, the PMBR CAN'T ADD NEW PROJECTILES!!!!!! So please stop, please.

My other point still stands; light armor would allow ganon to run through bombs arrows etc for five seconds and still take damage, but no knockback. You can only use it once every twenty seconds

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Well I tried. I guess people are more interested in discussing patches that are never going to come rather than the ganon meta. *sigh*

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well I tried. I guess people are more interested in discussing patches that are never going to come rather than the ganon meta. *sigh*

I think the main problem is that you're posting in the wrong threads. For future reference:

Meta Discussion: http://smashboards.com/threads/gannondorf-videos-where-art-thou.342323/
http://smashboards.com/threads/ganon-strategies-and-gameplay-discussion.347166/
http://smashboards.com/threads/reconciliation-of-evil-the-ganondorf-match-up-discussion.334545/

Complaints/Suggestions: http://smashboards.com/threads/ganon-meta-thread-discussions-and-suggestions-go-here.341662/

Social: http://smashboards.com/threads/jano...ce-to-talk-about-dunking-and-stomping.336099/

Let's try and get this organized before teluoborg goes insane.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

My other point still stands; light armor would allow ganon to run through bombs arrows etc for five seconds and still take damage, but no knockback. You can only use it once every twenty seconds

Somebody already proposed that, earlier in this thread, but that sounds slightly better.

 

[Arzak]

Yo, so I don't frequent Smashboards all that often and I only just realized my egregious error, I meant to say NEUTRAL B not side B, flame choke is cool.

Goddamn it, almost a month after the fact -_-

 

[Mr.Random]

He needs a better grab and better OoS options and he'll easily make top 10 with that range and side b tech chases.

 

[GeZ]

He needs a better grab and better OoS options and he'll easily make top 10 with that range and side b tech chases.

But his main problems are to do with movement :v
If he was going to break into top 10, or even out of the lower middle tier, they'd have to first address his travelling flow.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I'd say that his poor OoS options are just as big of a weakness as his movement.

 

[| Kailex |]

The only thing I agree with is his issue with the grab

 

[Yanoss1313]

omg, his stubby velociraptor pincher arms on the grab make me so sad.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

I think that the extended grab box (vertically and horizontally) would really fit his punish playstyle. He doesn't have very many good approach options, so his close range game oos should fit with his punish play style.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

He needs a better grab and better OoS options and he'll easily make top 10 with that range and side b tech chases.

ganon already has great OoS options. you can pop his aerials super quick OoS. you can up-b. you can asdi shield pressure into shield grabs that wouldn't of worked otherwise.

 

[teluoborg]

That's not what I call great, everyone can do that and most people will do it better than Ganon without having to asdi anything.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Yeah, Ganon's OoS options are pretty terribad.

 

[Radical Larry]

His up special should be similar to Ken's Shoryuken or Shinryuken.

 

[AcousticAdrian]

I think it would be beneficial to Ganon if his Up-B had a slightly faster startup and had the option to be angled slightly more horizontally. This would give a minor improvement to his recovery by allowing him to recover a little further away from the ledge, and it would provide a decent OOS option if the opponent is standing just outside of Ganon's grab range.

 

[| Kailex |]

I miss ganondorf's up-b grab range in melee, its too good.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganondorf needs C. Falcon's SSB64 U-Air semi-spike properties.
Talking about new properties...anyone up for Ganondorf having Captain Falcon's SSB64 Down and Side Smashes? It would make him much less of a clone character.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Ganondorf needs C. Falcon's SSB64 U-Air semi-spike properties.
Talking about new properties...anyone up for Ganondorf having Captain Falcon's SSB64 Down and Side Smashes? It would make him much less of a clone character.

I think those moves are too acrobatic looking, I think a good replacment for D-smash would be a ground punch (like in OOT) would work well. It can even function like his current Dsmash just it should link better.
As for F-smash, if they (they should) change Warlock Punch they should use its animation for his f-smash, it should function the same, except it looks cooler and is unique to Ganon.

Up smashs- I have a few ideas but I think it should function like his current with a possible increase in size to the hitbox to the front and top of the attack. But as to what it should look like I'm not sure... Maybe like Mew2's up smash?

I do totally agree on the semi-spike though.

 

[| Kailex |]

Doesnt ganondorf already have a semi-spike hitbox on his u-air? Or was it just my imagination?