What Ganon needs...

[GeZ]

but then... they could just shine your move back into you... D :

They'd have special properties to make you win the game if someone tries to reflect them.

No, you're wrong, shut up, Ganondorf needs four magic projectiles, a giant fist slam that breaks the main platform of the stage, sword attacks on all normals, three kinds of hover, more magic, and a mullet.

Projectiles force a response from an opponent without giving up your own position, which more often than not opens up approach options.

One of his hovers should be him surfing on Mewtwo.

But the thing is that only very very specific projectiles can lead to openings. Traditionally speaking, that's not what projectiles do.

 

[Bazkip]

I would not call boomerangs good projectiles

 

[Anonistry]

I liked your post just because that pic blew my mind.

As far as projectiles and openings, see: Iron Tager from Blazblue. Instead of a constantly spammable projectile, it runs off of a meter. Once full, the damn thing actually forces some approach by threat alone: it is flat out instawin against any other fireballs, and basically starts an entire combo on its own, meaning a disrespectful opponent just let him start up a pain train a full screen away. Did I mention the guy is the grappler of the game? Yeah. If ever you just "need" a projectile but aren't sure how to go about it, Tager's Spark Bolt is as good a projectile idea as you can cook up for the purpose of approach and pace control like some people are hoping for in a Dorf projectile. Whether or not it is "the" solution or anything, I don't know. But felt it was a thing to throw out there.

 

[Phaiyte]

I liked your post just because that pic blew my mind.

As far as projectiles and openings, see: Iron Tager from Blazblue. Instead of a constantly spammable projectile, it runs off of a meter. Once full, the damn thing actually forces some approach by threat alone: it is flat out instawin against any other fireballs, and basically starts an entire combo on its own, meaning a disrespectful opponent just let him start up a pain train a full screen away. Did I mention the guy is the grappler of the game? Yeah. If ever you just "need" a projectile but aren't sure how to go about it, Tager's Spark Bolt is as good a projectile idea as you can cook up for the purpose of approach and pace control like some people are hoping for in a Dorf projectile. Whether or not it is "the" solution or anything, I don't know. But felt it was a thing to throw out there.

Until Hakumen slashes the **** out of it and lols while you try to recharge it.

But get this guys. I was ****ing with BrawlBox yesterday, and I might've kinda given Ganon a 3 frame jump start and Falcon's runspeed, and I think I cut the startup time of sideB in half for both versions... I have to say, it was the most beautiful experience I've ever been a part of.

Think about it guys! Really fast pivot tilts. Really fast RAR bairs. REALLY FAST FAIRS that give a whole new meaning to his spacing game. Kept Ganon's fallspeed because it makes it a thousand times easier to survive that way with the double jump from downB. I couldn't believe what my fingers were controlling ._,

 

[teluoborg]

That sounds ridiculously fun. Simple question though : are there some characters in PM that you don't main ?

 

[Spralwers]

Until Hakumen slashes the **** out of it and lols while you try to recharge it.
But get this guys. I was ****ing with BrawlBox yesterday, and I might've kinda given Ganon a 3 frame jump start and Falcon's runspeed, and I think I cut the startup time of sideB in half for both versions... I have to say, it was the most beautiful experience I've ever been a part of.

I messed around with brawlbox and gave Dorf the exact same movement traits as DK a long time ago. His dash dance game becomes ****ing scary, and his combo game skyrockets because he can actually catch up to people he might send a little too far. Also his grab range becomes much less of a hassle.

 

[| Kailex |]

Oh I know what ganon needs, a good player.

 

[Anonistry]

Until Hakumen slashes the **** out of it and lols while you try to recharge it.

But get this guys. I was ****ing with BrawlBox yesterday, and I might've kinda given Ganon a 3 frame jump start and Falcon's runspeed, and I think I cut the startup time of sideB in half for both versions... I have to say, it was the most beautiful experience I've ever been a part of.

Think about it guys! Really fast pivot tilts. Really fast RAR bairs. REALLY FAST FAIRS that give a whole new meaning to his spacing game. Kept Ganon's fallspeed because it makes it a thousand times easier to survive that way with the double jump from downB. I couldn't believe what my fingers were controlling ._,

Mannnnng, Hakumen vs Tager is an entirely different matchup than any other for Tager. Only guy who is like "Nope, I'ma ALSO in your face." Hard hitting, slow normals everywhere.

Also, this sounds hilariously awesome. And potentially hilariously broke. But definitely awesome.

 

[teluoborg]

Oh I know what ganon needs, a good player.

Do not worry brother, we are getting there. I ain't no Armada but I'm definetely trying to better my Ganonic plays.

 

[| Kailex |]

I have a lot of tricks as ganondorf, maybe Id share them but im too lazy

 

[GeZ]

I still think that Air Warlock Kick is an underutilized edge guard. It's hitbox is butts so it only works on specific recoveries, but on those recoveries it's an easy kill.

 

[Anonistry]

That makes me wonder, if Airlock Kick had a better hitbox, how good of a tool would it be? Alot of games that are fighting or similar genre tend to pay off divekick type moves very well, provided they aren't bad themselves. Sometimes makes me wonder if it could be turned into a much more major tool for Ganondorf if it were just cleaned up a bit, particularly on hitbox and endlag...

 

[GeZ]

Divekicks don't fit into smash. It's for the 2d format and only functions there. I don't think Wizard Kick needs reduced endlag, just a better hitbox.

 

[Spralwers]

With a better hitbox, aerial down b would be a scary anti juggle move.

 

[Anonistry]

Divekicks don't fit into smash. It's for the 2d format and only functions there. I don't think Wizard Kick needs reduced endlag, just a better hitbox.

Well, the hitbox is def a given. I'd say the endlag would depend. A few frames shorter wouldn't do much, but what if it recovered almost instantly on landing? Given the startup lag and time to descent, I at least wonder what could be done with that. I can't help but think the additional trajectory, and the relative safety instant recovery would have against punish attempts, would help Dorf somewhat in the mobility department.

Then again, even if did somehow turn out to be true, I also admit that making someone as heavy as Dorf a "divekicker" would probably cause more shenanigans than it would fix. Like you said, a good divekick would be really funky in Smash Bros. Hell, it causes issues in 2D fighters; just look at the regularity with which the Twins from Street Fighter are high or top tier because of their divekicks.

 

[GeZ]

But that's specifically because divekick works in a traditional fighting game format. There is no parallel in smash. Trying to create one wouldn't work.

 

[Anonistry]

I'm not quite convinced of that. Would you be able to elaborate on what actually would make it not work?

 

[Spralwers]

It's because characters have enough movement, even with teching options, to avoid divekicks. Mobility in traditional fighters, when compared to smash, is extremely poor. ZSS has a dive kick but it's not among the highlights of her toolkit.

 

[GeZ]

The point of a divekick in a traditional fighting game is that it opens up your opponent for combos by altering the path of your jump with an attack, or basically provides you with a triangle jump. That doesn't matter in smash. You're not committed to a jump arc so the utility is much less notable. Also, as diving attacks that lead to combos go, that's a lot of moves in smash already. Divekicks just aren't replicable in the smash setting.

 

[Anonistry]

Ah. Worth noting, I wasn't thinking of divekicks in terms of "hitting" someone there, or the traditional 2D fighter use as another means of mixup. Like I said, I am just curious about the divekick as a mobility tool, which I think having a strong hitbox and no endlag means it can help Dorf somewhat against some forms of zoning. So I guess he wouldn't be a divekicker like that.

What about that thought? Still seems unlikely to do anything?

 

[GeZ]

To get past projectiles he can spot dodge, powershield, jump over, airdodge through, etc. Divekick only assists in games with poor mobility.

 

[Anonistry]

So then you don't think he could take advantage of trajectory shifts? I REALLY do need to emphasize zero endlag for this. Like, as in, if not predicted, its not punished kind of zero endlag. Although that would depend on how close to ground the down B is, I suppose...

And in case there is any confusion (because internet warps all things), this is just me trying to learn something here. So if I seem pushy... don't mean to be.

 

[DahremRuhar]

Ganon needs... a gun.

So he can be edgy like Shadow obviously.

Then the PMBR can rip Lil Wayne 2chainz Linkin Park/Limp Bizkit lyrics and give them to Ganon as voice overs.

 

[GeZ]

So then you don't think he could take advantage of trajectory shifts? I REALLY do need to emphasize zero endlag for this. Like, as in, if not predicted, its not punished kind of zero endlag. Although that would depend on how close to ground the down B is, I suppose...

And in case there is any confusion (because internet warps all things), this is just me trying to learn something here. So if I seem pushy... don't mean to be.

Don't worry about it. The thing is, smash already has more potent momentum shifts in most other movement options. Zero Endlag would be too good, not as a movement tool but just as a crazy/ too safe poke.

 

[Anonistry]

Don't worry about it. The thing is, smash already has more potent momentum shifts in most other movement options. Zero Endlag would be too good, not as a movement tool but just as a crazy/ too safe poke.

Alright, I kinda suspected that the zero endlag wasn't being "addressed" because it does sound patently absurd. Other than that, I can definitely see your point.

 

[CORY]

With a better hitbox, aerial down b would be a scary anti juggle move.

basically this.

look at any move that throws your character forward quickly: they're all negatively disjointed.

this is from pmbr testing. if the hitboxes aren't negatively disjointed, the moves are super centralizing and really really difficult to deal with. i remember this from early build wario, where his shoulder bash wasn't negatively disjointed and it was the biggest pain in the ass for people to deal with.

so, that's their line of reasoning, and i don't see them changing ganon's aerial wizkick hitboxes, since it has enough other utility to be useful overall.

 

[| Kailex |]

All of you sound like you want ganon to be broken, keep him as he is

 

[Phaiyte]

I still think that Air Warlock Kick is an underutilized edge guard. It's hitbox is butts so it only works on specific recoveries, but on those recoveries it's an easy kill.

I am not afraid to spike the piss out of like 75% of the cast

 

[Phaiyte]

I messed around with brawlbox and gave Dorf the exact same movement traits as DK a long time ago. His dash dance game becomes ****ing scary, and his combo game skyrockets because he can actually catch up to people he might send a little too far. Also his grab range becomes much less of a hassle.

I gave him Marth's grab animation and range rofl. It's ****ing great.

 

[DahremRuhar]

[t3h phunny joek] Why does everyone "like" my posts, and then not respond to my perfectly legitimate suggestions? [/t3h phunny joek]

On the subject of Ganon (I'm serious, there's a first time for everything) I don't think he needs too many changes. He is quite solid as is. A buffed grab range would be nice, as would a reliable way to deal with a certain variety of blue laser, because having to play smart and use platforms to my advantage is no fun. <<<<<<<<<slight sarcasm is labeled as such because internet

Honestly, if they nerfed Ganon, I'd still play as him.
Choke-chasing is may favorite thing ever.

 

[| Kailex |]

[t3h phunny joek] Why does everyone "like" my posts, and then not respond to my perfectly legitimate suggestions? [/t3h phunny joek]

On the subject of Ganon (I'm serious, there's a first time for everything) I don't think he needs too many changes. He is quite solid as is. A buffed grab range would be nice, as would a reliable way to deal with a certain variety of blue laser, because having to play smart and use platforms to my advantage is no fun. <<<<<<<<<slight sarcasm is labeled as such because internet

Honestly, if they nerfed Ganon, I'd still play as him.
Choke-chasing is may favorite thing ever.

I love you for not wanting any changes for ganon (other than the grab range)

 

[DahremRuhar]

I love you for not wanting any changes for ganon (other than the grab range)

I've "mained" him in Brawl since 2010. There is no way the PMBR could conceive a way to make him as garbage as he is in Brawl. So yeah, I really see no reason to complain. When I lose a match, I get better.

No Johns is not just a phrase. It's a lifestyle.

 

[Anonistry]

I really only could ask for a different neutral B. I don't even mean some super special awesome replacement, just one that gives a situational tool. I will admit, I also can get down with the crowd who'd think it'd make a sweet fSmash animation replacement once that is done.

But yeah, its not like Dorf needs some supreme omega level buffs. His mobility can be ass, as is his general response to campers, and a little bit of a bump here would be nice, but it also is his specific major weakness, so in general I wouldn't want them to go overboard with him.

Unless they want OP Ganondorf for the rest of the game. I mean, totally cool with that. Just desserts for Brawl. Seriously, Brawldorf. The only time a newb like me could tell he was nerfed to oblivion without even yet knowing or looking at tier lists at the time. That was a dark time in my life...

 

[CORY]

On the subject of Ganon (I'm serious, there's a first time for everything) I don't think he needs too many changes. He is quite solid as is. A buffed grab range would be nice

totally agree. he doesn't need large sweeping changes. he still hits like a truck, his only problem is that he can't really... hit very well. i'm pretty sure pmbr's going to do a good job in the small tweaks to his neutral and hopefully fix his grab range (i really just want slightly lower grab range.)

 

[Phaiyte]

In all seriousness, I just want him to have 1 decent mobility option other than the relatively extreme ease of wavelanding. He's basically the only character in the game that doesn't have one and it kinda sucks to realize that all the time. What I mean by that is, some characters have movement options through moves like Mewtwo teleport, Lucario downB, Ike sideB, djc options, or just generally fast movement speed like Sonic, Falcon, Jiggs/Wario in the air stuff like that.

 

[Anonistry]

Eh, his "mobility" per se isn't an issue, until paired with his all-or-nothing neutral. Like, where is his safe pokes? He pretty much does what every heavy guy does: play the patience game and try to push a mistake, and then take momentum. In particular, he really doesn't have what I would call a good approaching aerial. Except for Bair, most of them are slower to come out and hit hard, plus the range doesn't necessarily do well for mixing up his approach. So his aerial game in the end can't break a camp. His movement tools tend to have bad endlag, and don't have armor or anything, so camping or a good read punishes it. Basically I think he can "almost" get in even the campier characters, but his lack of a reasonable answer to when he HAS to be in front of them means it gets awkward.

In short, Gdorf's mobility would work if the other guy wasn't doing anything. But they do, and he has no good counter-response to their response to him approaching. At least, this has been my experience with him, and from what I have watched, and comparing him to the relatively similar characters from other fighting games/similar genres.

 

[robosteven]

Maybe some light armor on Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke could help with his projectile problem.

His grab range should at least be a little better though, I'm 100% convinced about that.

...Maybe the landing lag on his up-b and aerial side-b, too. Just tweaks like that would benefit him heavily. I think his current moveset is pretty damn solid, he just struggles hitting short people. Fixing his grab range would mostly fix that problem, maybe tweaking the hitboxes on some of his moves (like jab) to hit lower could help, and his spotdodge could be sped up a bit.



also I would like to point out the first post that started this thread lol

 

[Scuba Steve]

Maybe some light armor on Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke could help with his projectile problem.

nonononononono not that. Wizard's foot doesn't need armor, the hitbox on it is fine as is and shouldn't be safe to throw out to begin with. It's used if you want to trade and have your trade hit harder or off of reads. Flame choke shouldn't have armor just because it would make it kind of brain dead to use as well.

 

[robosteven]

nonononononono not that. Wizard's foot doesn't need armor, the hitbox on it is fine as is and shouldn't be safe to throw out to begin with. It's used if you want to trade and have your trade hit harder or off of reads. Flame choke shouldn't have armor just because it would make it kind of brain dead to use as well.

Just an idea. I'm in favor of making as few abuseable moves as possible, so the idea of giving him armor didn't really appeal to me all that much, but I figured it'd be a way to deal with projectiles. Maybe if it had reflective properties, but no armor like the Franklin Badge or something so that it wouldn't be completely safe but would be a way to get through projectile walls Ganon couldn't normally get around.

 

[cramazzratazz]

ganondorf definitely needs a samus canon that fires banana peels. or mr saturns.