What do you think of scientology?

[Wolfang]

Well, I was driving down the road one day and actually saw "The Church of Scientology". I was a little surprised. But I started to wonder, is scientology a religion, a cult, a principle, an educative practice, etc...I'm not very clear on its exact purpose even though I know the definition of it.

But that's not important. I want to know, what do you think of (it) on a whole?

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I think it's a scam; why is it nescessary to charge money for religious*, not commercial, services?

I don't know enough about Scientology to say anything, really.

 

[blazedaces]

How is this a debate?

-blazed

 

[Wolfang]

It slows down when you ask questions like that. Quick Answer threads aren't debates either, but they are in the debate hall, so if you have nothing insightful to say, thats fine, but the thread is still open.

 

[The Executive]

How is this a debate?

-blazed

It isn't really (sorry Wolfang). It's asking for an opinion; possibly hoping that some poor sap will defend the biggest scam in modern history and thus make it a 'debate'.

Don't even play devil's advocate on this one. There is no reason to defend Scientology. It preys on the rich and impressionable (bad combo right there) and ostracizes/blackmails defectors and whistleblowers.

 

[SkylerOcon]

There's no point in this thread seeing as about 80% of the SWF can be considered as Anonymous. And outside of that, nobody knows enough about it to defend it on here.

If you want my opinion, I think it's a scam. But I have one problem -- the people who protest it. You can protest the church that has killed and lied to take money but not the religion itself. You can't protest a religion. It's just not right.

 

[The Executive]

There's no point in this thread seeing as about 80% of the SWF can be considered as Anonymous. And outside of that, nobody knows enough about it to defend it on here.

If you want my opinion, I think it's a scam. But I have one problem -- the people who protest it. You can protest the church that has killed and lied to take money but not the religion itself. You can't protest a religion. It's just not right.

It isn't a religion.

Scientology has nothing to do with religion. The Church did not adopt the religious guise until it was necessary to seek First Amendment protection.

Scientology uses a religious image checklist designed to falsely portray a religious image to mislead officials. "Church" policy instructs members to lie to inquiring officials.

There you have it. Con artists hiding behind a gross misuse of the First Amendment.

edit: 80% maybe, before the n00b deluge. 65% tops now, but there's no way of telling.

 

[SkylerOcon]

It is a religion. It's a set of beliefs shared by a group of people.

Saying that Scientology isn't a religion is like saying Christianity isn't a religion -- and we all know that that isn't true.

 

[AltF4]

See my signature.

 

[WuTangDude]

I was going to make this topic myself.

My hatred for Scientology is not bwecause of there theological beliefs. Those are fine, people view them as unorthodox, but in the end, it's just as possible as all other Theological interpretations of the creation of Humans and Earth and such. They are free to believe whatever they wish, wether it be Jesus, Xenu, whatever.

It's not even because it's a scam, either. Obviously the creators are just in it for the money (after all, L Ron Hubbard said it best himself, "Religion's where the money's at!).

It's because they let Lisa McPherson die.
Or their persecution of psychiatry, because they'd rather have their followers emotionally unstable.
Or because they forced abortions on women who were on SeaOrg.
Or because they commited the single largest United States government infiltration operation of all time.
Or because they tried to destroy Paulette Cooper's career through lies and slander.
Or because they try to censore their opposition, ESPECIALLY on the internet.
OR even their unfair tax exceptions.

Just Google (or even Wikipedia search):

Operation Snow White
Operation PC Freakout
Lisa McPherson
SeaOrg
Scientology and the Internet
Operation Chanology


There are plenty of reasons to hate Scientology. Don't base it off the ignorant ones.

www.xenu.net

 

[The Executive]

Operation PC Freakout

Yeah, I totally missed this one. Nasty stuff indeed.

 

[SkylerOcon]

This thread really will only work if a Scientologist happens upon it, which I find highly unlikely,

 

[blazedaces]

This thread really will only work if a Scientologist happens upon it, which I find highly unlikely,

I think it would be very ironic (and funny) if they had something against using computers/the internet which makes that a complete impossibility unless they're not being true to their doctrines...

-blazed

 

[WuTangDude]

Yeah, I totally missed this one. Nasty stuff indeed.

Yeah, the distance they'll go to silence their opposition is something I've never seen before. It's brutal. They seriously try to stifle free speech.

This thread really will only work if a Scientologist happens upon it, which I find highly unlikely,

If a Scientologist found this thread, he/she would alert their peers and have this thread wiped form existence. Seriously.

Scientology is one of leading forces in censoring the internet. They're up there with China.

 

[lordzedd]

do you guys think that scientology is... almost a cult for rich people?

 

[The Executive]

do you guys think that scientology is... almost a cult for rich people?

It's a cult, but it's not for its adherents. Not in the slightest.

 

[Ørion]

Scientology is a cult, and I do not consider it a religion in the same way that Christianity, Judiasm, Islam etc. are religions. WuTangDude made an excellent list of crimes they have committed, and brought up Chanology, which I was just waiting for as I was reading this thread. Though the members of Chanology are using questionable (very questionable in some cases) methods, their goal is not a bad one, especially considering that they do not want to destroy the religion, but just make it more open.

I believe that they are responsible for the death of at least a few people and that they have a lot to answer for and need to be more open at the very least.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Well no matter how much you guys want to play "no true Scotsman," Scientology IS a religion. It is a set of "sacred truths" codified by a book and by church authority figures. Even if you want to say religion has to include some sort of cultural or societal aspect, it's still a religion; Scientology goes to great lengths to establish their own "society" and "morality."

Also, if you're going to demand Scientology answer for the deaths it is responsible for, you can't at the same time fail to reproach Christianity, Islam, etc. for theirs, which are possibly millions of times greater in number.

 

[Biggie Smalls]

Scientology is certainly the lawl of it all. I mean, I could care less what religion you believe in, but you'd have to be a stupid mother****er to be suckered into Scientology. I don't know the concept, but paying for religious services is bs. I donate to mmy christian church, but I don't pay $200.00 to be admitted into a religion when where it goes is someone's bank account , instead of starving children in Africa.

 

[yossarian22]

Scientology is a cult, and I do not consider it a religion in the same way that Christianity, Judiasm, Islam etc. are religions.

And the dividing line between a cult and a religion is?
Scientology could be turned into a philosophy of sorts (albeit a fairly warped one) and it therefore satisfies all requirements to be considered a theology. Does the ludicrous content of their belief system somehow take away from the fact that they share the exact same system possessed by most religions?

I believe that they are responsible for the death of at least a few people and that they have a lot to answer for and need to be more open at the very least.

Your point?
I can say the same thing about every religion that has ever existed.

 

[Biggie Smalls]

I can say the same thing about every religion that has ever existed.

Very true, however it's a very dumb religion, it's obviously a scam. You don't pay for services, sure you can pay to be in a school but to be converted should cost no money. If people have died for a scam, what foundation does your argument hold?

 

[yossarian22]

Very true, however it's a very dumb religion, it's obviously a scam.

And a man who got nailed to a hunk of wood to die for the sins of humanity isn't obviously a scam? Or how about that riveting tale involving a burning bush that talked to a guy? I fail to see how Scientology is obviously a scam while Christianity or Islam or any of the other dogmatic religions are not.
The only difference between the dogma of Christianity and the dogma of Scientology is that one is entrenched in society and other is not.

You don't pay for services, sure you can pay to be in a school but to be converted should cost no money.

Why? A religion is not compelled to be a non profit venture. Historically, they never have been.

If people have died for a scam, what foundation does your argument hold?

And how specifically is Scientology a scam? Charging for their services?

 

[SkylerOcon]

And how specifically is Scientology a scam? Charging for their services?

For the amount of money they charge for there services. There's nothing wrong for paying a little bit of money to help a church along, but when you're paying literally thousands of dollars that usually just go into somebody's personal pocket, it's not right.

 

[Biggie Smalls]

And a man who got nailed to a hunk of wood to die for the sins of humanity isn't obviously a scam? Or how about that riveting tale involving a burning bush that talked to a guy? I fail to see how Scientology is obviously a scam while Christianity or Islam or any of the other dogmatic religions are not.
The only difference between the dogma of Christianity and the dogma of Scientology is that one is entrenched in society and other is not.

Speak to me on this matter when you find out the meaning of "scam". P.S (it has to do with money)

Why? A religion is not compelled to be a non profit venture. Historically, they never have been.

So? It's not built to be a profit venture either.

And how specifically is Scientology a scam? Charging for their services?

No **** Sherlock. I mean, would you pay over $100 to be converted? Any other religion is only a few dollars, and hell that goes to charity.

 

[yossarian22]

For the amount of money they charge for there services. There's nothing wrong for paying a little bit of money to help a church along, but when you're paying literally thousands of dollars that usually just go into somebody's personal pocket, it's not right.

Any reason why it is not right?
All I have heard is "They charge money". So what?
Their doctrine could be entirely correct. So they charge for it, big deal. They probably think that it is correct.

Speak to me on this matter when you find out the meaning of "scam". P.S (it has to do with money)

Amazing retort.
A scam, besides implying criminal intent, deals with objects of value (something money has alot of). I want something from you. I deceive you into giving it to me. I have scammed you out of <X>. Money, political power, property it does not matter what it is.

So? It's not built to be a profit venture either.

Which is my point. The money they raise has little to do with whether or not they are a religion.

No **** Sherlock. I mean, would you pay over $100 to be converted? Any other religion is only a few dollars, and hell that goes to charity.

Your point being?

Sure, Scientology has objectified dogmatic religion into something abhorrent. They have shown the fundamental flaw in dogmatic theism. Railing against Scientology can't be done without condemning the actions of virtually every fundamentalist church out there. If you are willing to accept that, then fine.

 

[Zero Beat]

For the amount of money they charge for there services. There's nothing wrong for paying a little bit of money to help a church along, but when you're paying literally thousands of dollars that usually just go into somebody's personal pocket, it's not right.

If you're paying thousands of dollars to join a religion, chances are that you can afford to spend the money on that.

If you seem to disagree with it in the first place, why the *****ing about its price? Think about the possible mindset of a pupil there, they either didn't even feel the sting of the thousands of dollars, or they want to be part of something "intellectual." Most people would agree that Scientology is a waste of time.

I can't believe Yossarian and I are agreeing on something.

 

[WuTangDude]

For the record, Scientology IS a religion. In my first post I was attacking the CHURCH, not the beliefs the church promotes.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Any other religion is only a few dollars, and hell that goes to charity.

That's a nice bit of wishful thinking that is far from the truth. Of course you can't ever know because churches aren't required to publish their financial reports. Lucky for them.

 

[The Executive]

That's a nice bit of wishful thinking that is far from the truth. Of course you can't ever know because churches aren't required to publish their financial reports. Lucky for them.

Maybe not, but with the rash of "megachurches" busted for tax evasion a few years ago many churches have their financial proceedings audited and available for public view.

 

[Kur]

Scientology is the belief (first put forward by L. Ron Hubbard) that some ancient alien race crashed (in ships that looked like DC-9s) and died on earth and their spirits are infecting our bodies, causing all the bad luck, negative emotions, and general doom and gloom in our daily lives.

The church of scientology will scan you with their plastic box (made out of a dial, a gauge, a buzzer, a light, and 4 or 5 wires) so they can tell you how many of these alien spirits are infecting you. Then once they have you believing you are infected, they charge you a modest fee (modest for some, outrageous for most) to pay for the task of scaring the **** out of you until you buy their entire line of BS hook, line, and sinker.

Then you continue to fork over as much money as you can, because until they get all of their money, there will be no treatment for you. The treatment consists of yelling at you and scanning you with other plastic boxes.

All in all, you can spend upwards of $100,000 per month on these treatments.

All the while, the leaders of the church take time out of their busy schedules of rolling around in cash to preach at their congregations that the average population is a bunch of idiots and needs the treatment too and that any and all criticism of scientology should be immediately met with the utmost hostility.

Of course I am reciting all of this from memory and my memory isn't the best. So I will let you watch this video, showing actual scientologists doing what they do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuHF_br-DBs

Enjoy.

 

[Biggie Smalls]

That's a nice bit of wishful thinking that is far from the truth. Of course you can't ever know because churches aren't required to publish their financial reports. Lucky for them.

You honestly think that 1 dollar a person is a huge difference, when compared to over 100 a person for scientology?

 

[pockyD]

I don't know about other religions, but Christianity doesn't charge you at all

JESUS ALREADY PAID THE PRICE

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

You honestly think that 1 dollar a person is a huge difference, when compared to over 100 a person for scientology?

Did I say that? No I didn't. But it's still naive to think that all the money that people give to their churches goes to charity. Charities are not infallible organizations themselves either. I'm not pointing a finger at any specific church by the way.

 

[pockyD]

Most of the money that people give to churches doesn't go to "charity", nor do they claim that it does

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Hence me taking issue with Biggie Smalls' claim in an earlier post.

 

[Kur]

I don't know about other religions, but Christianity doesn't charge you at all

JESUS ALREADY PAID THE PRICE

Interesting claim you have there.

What evidence do you have that this Jesus person ever existed? What price did he pay? Why does Christian churches pass the collection basket around and constantly ask for donations through newsletters, e-mails, charities, and even face to face if they don't 'charge' you at all?

Anyway, back on scientology.

At best, it is an evil organization of people who are after your money. At worst it is a cult that preys on the naive to collect money and bully any criticism into submission.

I find that it is both actually. It is one step away from being no better than Nazis or KoolAid drinkers in Waco.

 

[pockyD]

Interesting claim you have there.

What evidence do you have that this Jesus person ever existed? What price did he pay? Why does Christian churches pass the collection basket around and constantly ask for donations through newsletters, e-mails, charities, and even face to face if they don't 'charge' you at all?

Church donations are 100% voluntary (in the "worldly" sense lol); you aren't going to be denied anything that the church provides as a result of not donating anything. This is simply not the case with scientology.

If Jesus didn't exist, then even though he didn't pay the price, there's no actual price to be paid because Christianity would simply be false. Either way, the Christian can easily have a "free ride" if he/she so chooses. Christians give to their church because they legitimately believe in the cause to which they are donating, and no christian giving is related in any way to personal rewards or recognition (besides the tax deduction).

 

[Kur]

Church donations are 100% voluntary (in the "worldly" sense lol); you aren't going to be denied anything that the church provides as a result of not donating anything. This is simply not the case with scientology.

If Jesus didn't exist, then even though he didn't pay the price, there's no actual price to be paid because Christianity would simply be false. Either way, the Christian can easily have a "free ride" if he/she so chooses. Christians give to their church because they legitimately believe in the cause to which they are donating, and no christian giving is related in any way to personal rewards or recognition (besides the tax deduction).

Except for the stares you get if you pass the collection basket along without putting anything in it.

Granted, you aren't required to donate anything, but it is highly expected and frowned upon if you don't.

 

[SkylerOcon]

But the fact remains that you don't.

In Scientology, you do. Thousands of dollars a year, in fact. For that basket they pass around in a Christian Church, it's what? One, two dollars a week?

 

[WuTangDude]

Scientology is the belief (first put forward by L. Ron Hubbard) that some ancient alien race crashed (in ships that looked like DC-9s) and died on earth and their spirits are infecting our bodies, causing all the bad luck, negative emotions, and general doom and gloom in our daily lives.

The church of scientology will scan you with their plastic box (made out of a dial, a gauge, a buzzer, a light, and 4 or 5 wires) so they can tell you how many of these alien spirits are infecting you. Then once they have you believing you are infected, they charge you a modest fee (modest for some, outrageous for most) to pay for the task of scaring the **** out of you until you buy their entire line of BS hook, line, and sinker.

Then you continue to fork over as much money as you can, because until they get all of their money, there will be no treatment for you. The treatment consists of yelling at you and scanning you with other plastic boxes.

All in all, you can spend upwards of $100,000 per month on these treatments.

All the while, the leaders of the church take time out of their busy schedules of rolling around in cash to preach at their congregations that the average population is a bunch of idiots and needs the treatment too and that any and all criticism of scientology should be immediately met with the utmost hostility.

Of course I am reciting all of this from memory and my memory isn't the best. So I will let you watch this video, showing actual scientologists doing what they do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuHF_br-DBs

Enjoy.

So? I believe in a man parting a sea. I also believe in a man turning water into wine. That could be considered just as likely as what Scientologists believe.

To use their theological beliefs as a reason that they are bad people (which they are) is a wrong reason, and a bad move. It's exactly what they want you to do, that way they can play the religion card.

Like I said on the first page, there are plenty of reasons to hate this corporation, don't pick the wrong ones.