What do the pros think?

[Zukaza]

You'd be surprised at how many players don't cover those "mental bases" I talked about on the previous page bro.

ON THE CONTRARY BENTBOX!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gNlXUI_7z7A

Hey sweet vid, that Ike player was really good. Was that you Versatile?

 

[Hokkaido]

I delibarately omitted to post that video, stop trying to ruin my efforts :[

And uh, how do you edgeguard's Ike's recovery? @_@

Against his Side-B, if you have low damage (or just don't care and want to give him trouble regardless), you can go the simple way by just jumping out to meet him. I'm pretty sure air-dodging still forces him to swing his sword if he passes your character (since to my experience so far blocking/rolling/side-dodging on the floor all do), but if not then letting him just hit you will force him to become exhausted and drop like a rock while you either rocket back over the stage or die yourself from being shot so far.

If you have a spammable projectile (that can interrupt, such as Falco's lasers), you can just use that instead in order to save yourself the risk...

And to my experience, I've only once ever been successfully knocked out of doing my Up-B by a risk-taker... if I had a choice, I'd most definitely use the Up-B instead of Side-B, since the latter is much more easily gimped.

 

[e105beta]

Snake is both better and cooler than Ike. Whether that's true or not, I will stick by it till the end.

C4 owns Ike. Snake is the magic man.

And to my experience, I've only once ever been successfully knocked out of doing my Up-B by a risk-taker... if I had a choice, I'd most definitely use the Up-B instead of Side-B, since the latter is much more easily gimped.

The only problem with Up-B is the lack of horizontal movement.

 

[Hokkaido]

Snake is both better and cooler than Ike. Whether that's true or not, I will stick by it till the end.

C4 owns Ike. Snake is the magic man.



The only problem with Up-B is the lack of horizontal movement.

Yes, there is... but when provided a choice, I'd always advise you to just drop down a bit and take the vertical leap instead of using the side-B. Fully charged though, the side-B's horizontal movement is actually rather amazing.

 

[Zukaza]

Yes, there is... but when provided a choice, I'd always advise you to just drop down a bit and take the vertical leap instead of using the side-B. Fully charged though, the side-B's horizontal movement is actually rather amazing.

I agree, other wise your left vulnerable to ledge guarders.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Hey sweet vid, that Ike player was really good. Was that you Versatile?

No dude it isn't haha. But I do plan on being a much better player than him when it's all said and done though.

Like most, I patiently wait 9 more days.

 

[Zukaza]

No dude it isn't haha. But I do plan on being a much better player than him when it's all said and done though.

Like most, I patiently wait 9 more days.

Same here, ive been lucky enough to have found people that have it. Ive played Ike several times and im not disappointed at all with the character. I had trouble playing against Olimar though, he was able to keep me away almost all the time.

 

[Hostility]

Same here, ive been lucky enough to have found people that have it. Ive played Ike several times and im not disappointed at all with the character. I had trouble playing against Olimar though, he was able to keep me away almost all the time.

How was olimar keeping you away? I havan't played any good olimars so I'd like to hear a little about the matchup.

 

[Zukaza]

How was olimar keeping you away? I havan't played any good olimars so I'd like to hear a little about the matchup.

Well, it happened like this, we have 1 stock left (everyone else had lost). I opened up with quick drawing, but obviously it wasnt enough because Olimar was quicker to the trigger. He threw two pikmin on two me, which caused me to kill the first pikmin, and the second one to latch on to me (it was a white one mind you 56% dmg ) And since Olimar followed it up with a Fair, i was thrown back. Off the ledge, i was trying to get a foot hold onto the situation, but again, Olimar was a another two steps ahead of me. Latching more Pikmin on to me, i panicked and tried to get them off of me. Olimar took the opportunity to grab me, throw me and finish me with an up smash. Its like my friend predetermined my every move, i was sad But hey, we learn from our mistakes right?

 

[Hokkaido]

How was olimar keeping you away? I havan't played any good olimars so I'd like to hear a little about the matchup.

My roommate's decided to main Olimar and on days when I just can't my grips (either when he's doing especially well or I'm doing especially poorly), I can't land many hits on him either.

He'll usually spam his forward-B pikmin toss and use one of his smashes when you get too close, and is very good at using his aerials... though the degree of damage and knockback usually depends on the pikmin thrown or used, it can be pretty annoying...

The key for me was to place constant pressure on him by playing a bit more offensively and getting in his face so he didn't have the advantage of tossing/smashing distance. Once I started doing that, he had a MUCH harder time against me (as of now, I'd dare to say I win marginally more than he does), especially since Ike also has pretty good range and possibly one of the best priorities in the game.

 

[Hostility]

Well, it happened like this, we have 1 stock left (everyone else had lost). I opened up with quick drawing, but obviously it wasnt enough because Olimar was quicker to the trigger. He threw two pikmin on two me, which caused me to kill the first pikmin, and the second one to latch on to me (it was a white one mind you 56% dmg ) And since Olimar followed it up with a Fair, i was thrown back. Off the ledge, i was trying to get a foot hold onto the situation, but again, Olimar was a another two steps ahead of me. Latching more Pikmin on to me, i panicked and tried to get them off of me. Olimar took the opportunity to grab me, throw me and finish me with an up smash. Its like my friend predetermined my every move, i was sad But hey, we learn from our mistakes right?

Yea quick drawing into projectiles is a bad idea. It sounds like you just panicked a bit. When you have pikmin on you, do short hop nairs since the move auto cancels and doesn't really leave you open much. or throw out a jab combo.

 

[Zukaza]

Yea quick drawing into projectiles is a bad idea. It sounds like you just panicked a bit. When you have pikmin on you, do short hop nairs since the move auto cancels and doesn't really leave you open much. or throw out a jab combo.

Yea i guess i did kinda panic, i need to further understand his movement physics and so forth. Ill get there eventualy.

 

[Hokkaido]

Yea i guess i did kinda panic, i need to further understand his movement physics and so forth. Ill get there eventualy.

It's especially weird against Pikmin&Olimar since I find that Quick Drawing into the thrown Pikmin causes Ike to react as if he's attacking a player (meaning he'll swing at the air and perhaps kill a Pikmin at most)- my roommate's pretty much caught onto that as well and it's pretty much his strategy against anything like my Side-B approaches or recovery attempts.

 

[comboking]

he is good!
IKE FOR GOD TIER JK

 

[Zukaza]

It's especially weird against Pikmin&Olimar since I find that Quick Drawing into the thrown Pikmin causes Ike to react as if he's attacking a player (meaning he'll swing at the air and perhaps kill a Pikmin at most)- my roommate's pretty much caught onto that as well and it's pretty much his strategy against anything like my Side-B approaches or recovery attempts.

As a matter of fact im talking to the Olimar user right now. Hes laughing at the fact that he can throw a pikmin if I attempt to recover using side b. It makes me sad

 

[Hokkaido]

As a matter of fact im talking to the Olimar user right now. Hes laughing at the fact that he can throw a pikmin if I attempt to recover using side b. It makes me sad

Yes, it's annoying... but if you avoid manage to get knocked out too far, you won't have that problem

I just short hop nair to quickly knock off any pikmin already on Ike (occasionally eruption), and don't allow him to use his smashes by keeping up the pressure with short hop aerials and jab combos... and then of course, it doesn't hurt to mix in some Up-B and B moves for their ultra super armor frames.

 

[Zukaza]

Yes, it's annoying... but if you avoid manage to get knocked out too far, you won't have that problem

I just short hop nair to quickly knock off any pikmin already on Ike (occasionally eruption), and don't allow him to use his smashes by keeping up the pressure with short hop aerials and jab combos... and then of course, it doesn't hurt to mix in some Up-B and B moves for their ultra super armor frames.

Thats some good advice, ill think about that when I get to play again.

 

[Ween]

oh I see!

 

[VersatileBJN]

I haven't watched too much Olimar play, but he's a character who will take a aggressove but disciplined approach for sure.

I feel in a way Olimar is a gimmick who can be shut down if fought appropriately.

If I had to guess I would say PSing his Pikmin tosses are going to be key.

 

[Hokkaido]

I haven't watched too much Olimar play, but he's a character who will take a aggressove but disciplined approach for sure.

I feel in a way Olimar is a gimmick who can be shut down if fought appropriately.

If I had to guess I would say PSing his Pikmin tosses are going to be key.

The main problem about Olimar (for me) was the fact that his Pikmin have so many different effects; if you have a white one on you and don't get it off the first thing for instance, it'll rack up damage (especially if paired with another Pikmin) easily over 50-70% within like three seconds. Purple ones are the power Pikmin (and getting hit by a Purple Pikmin smash will often get you killed), and Ike has to be careful about the Red Pikmin since they're immune to his eruption... One example of a cheap death would be if he has a white pikmin and purple pikmin right after it, he can toss the white one at you in mid-air combat and smack you with the purple one immediately, and the effects would be amplified (white pikmin also increase either damage multiplier or knockback multipler on you, I remember my friend saying).

Though my win/loss ratio vs. my Pikmin mainer friend evens out (and I'll dare again to say that I win perhaps slightly, slightly more), I haven't gotten in habit just yet of keeping track of the order of his Pikmin line, which can make all the difference when you're considering your options for approach (or defense, though I don't recommend playing a defensive game vs. Pikmin as Ike).

 

[VersatileBJN]

As a matter of fact im talking to the Olimar user right now. Hes laughing at the fact that he can throw a pikmin if I attempt to recover using side b. It makes me sad

Maybe you are getting predictable with you QD recovery timing?

I think constantly switching up how long you charge and where you aim might help.

I don't think with QD you're supposed to recover onto the stage in a predictable, repetitive manner unless you have absolutely no choice.

 

[Zukaza]

The main problem about Olimar (for me) was the fact that his Pikmin have so many different effects; if you have a white one on you and don't get it off the first thing for instance, it'll rack up damage (especially if paired with another Pikmin) easily over 50-70% within like three seconds. Purple ones are the power Pikmin (and getting hit by a Purple Pikmin smash will often get you killed), and Ike has to be careful about the Red Pikmin since they're immune to his eruption... One example of a cheap death would be if he has a white pikmin and purple pikmin right after it, he can toss the white one at you in mid-air combat and smack you with the purple one immediately, and the effects would be amplified (white pikmin also increase either damage multiplier or knockback multipler on you, I remember my friend saying).

Though my win/loss ratio vs. my Pikmin mainer friend evens out (and I'll dare again to say that I win perhaps slightly, slightly more), I haven't gotten in habit just yet of keeping track of the order of his Pikmin line, which can make all the difference when you're considering your options for approach (or defense, though I don't recommend playing a defensive game vs. Pikmin as Ike).

Yea, i gotta say Olimar is the most annoying fight for Ike, having to keep an eye on the line of pikmin while trying to fend of the pesky red ones immunity. Those pikmin sure are a trip.

 

[VersatileBJN]

The main problem about Olimar (for me) was the fact that his Pikmin have so many different effects; if you have a white one on you and don't get it off the first thing for instance, it'll rack up damage (especially if paired with another Pikmin) easily over 50-70% within like three seconds. Purple ones are the power Pikmin (and getting hit by a Purple Pikmin smash will often get you killed), and Ike has to be careful about the Red Pikmin since they're immune to his eruption... One example of a cheap death would be if he has a white pikmin and purple pikmin right after it, he can toss the white one at you in mid-air combat and smack you with the purple one immediately, and the effects would be amplified (white pikmin also increase either damage multiplier or knockback multipler on you, I remember my friend saying).

Though my win/loss ratio vs. my Pikmin mainer friend evens out (and I'll dare again to say that I win perhaps slightly, slightly more), I haven't gotten in habit just yet of keeping track of the order of his Pikmin line, which can make all the difference when you're considering your options for approach (or defense, though I don't recommend playing a defensive game vs. Pikmin as Ike).

Good stuff. It definitely sounds a like a disadvantage for Ike, but winnable.

 

[VersatileBJN]

I have a question for people who use Ike and have a solid knowledge of "what's up".

Kirk, Azen, Zag, Miller, whoever.


How staple do you feel up throw(or down) into aether at low percentages is?

I haven't seen it much at all, but maybe that is because people are still in Melee mode. In that game, a throw into an up B was almost always not a legitimate combo.

In this game where the combo system is far more stripped down, maybe not so much.

ESPECIALLY for a character who, in general, lacks any sorts of guaranteed combo game at all.

So what's up? I know Aether does about 21% if it all connects and a throw does like 7 or so. That's a solid 28 right there IF it's consistent.

If someone could run some tests on that vs a real opponent DIing and air dodging I would appreciate it very much.

Speaking of combos, I also think that Ike players are trying to follow up with combos way too much, causing him to get out prioritized in the air. It's almost like they are trying to play Ike like a slow version of Marth when in reality he is the opposite of Marth "approach wise" in almost every single way.

I do not believe Sakurai designed Ike with elaborate, speedy follow ups in mind. I like to think of him more as a Soul Calibur-style character in a Smash games. Single hits, spacing, anticipation, using your range.

I cringe whenver I see Ike land, say, an u-tilt at like 40% and tries to jump up and follow up all close to the opponent like it's a for sure thing. I think jumping up and READING the opponent is what will be "hot on the streets" for competitive Ikes.


Jump and Counter in anticipation of retaliation from the opponent thinking you will follow up??

Jump and DI to position a well spaced and timed aerial?

Jump and Eruption charge to utilize his SA upon active frames?

EDIT: Who even says you need to jump with them? Why not ground stalk and follow their movement?

Yo Beta, you should change the name of this topic to "Ike Analysis and Theory" or some ****.

 

[ChaosKnight]

Well i been playing ike for quite some time now and yes it does seem that you cant Really focus on aerials with ike but to do follow up combos with ike is not impossible and not bad at all. Like you can easily do a jab jab combo into down smash which would send your opp up maybe lead it to an up smash, but in reality ike will not be top tier but be high tier. How high? not #1 but high.. and his aerials can make spacing so easy if done correctly

and lots of you might not now me but i do play competitive and live around the best : / md/va ftw <--(shamelss plug)

 

[VersatileBJN]

I hear you. I wasn't talking about ground combos really. I was mainly referring to Ike following up aerials with a "this is likely to hit" mindset that is deeply flawed.

We all know AAA may be the most important move Ike has when it's all said and done.

So I assume it's been confirmed that AA, d smash is legit?

I recall there being mumblings of this not working.

It is done by doing AA and shield canceling the 2nd A and then doing a down smash right away?

 

[Hellbeing]

I think hes smack dab in the middle.

*Cue cookie commercial*

 

[Hokkaido]

I hear you. I wasn't talking about ground combos really. I was mainly referring to Ike following up aerials with a "this is likely to hit" mindset that is deeply flawed.

We all know AAA may be the most important move Ike has when it's all said and done.

So I assume it's been confirmed that AA, d smash is legit?

I recall there being mumblings of this not working.

It is done by doing AA and shield canceling the 2nd A and then doing a down smash right away?

I'm assuming it works, since though I've always been happy enough with the standard jab combo, I did several times manage to shield-cancel out of the second hit and in essence land 2 punches, 2 kicks and finally the finisher (AA -> AAA). To me, the jab combo is priceless when it comes down to keeping a safe ground game and waiting for your opponent to slip up or for an opportunity to present itself.

On the times I have managed to try it in training mode however, I found it a bit awkward. Since the GCube controller's shield doesn't activate now if you hold the button lightly, I never really got the complete mastery of it during the few minutes I was practicing at that time.

 

[BentoBox]

Well i been playing ike for quite some time now and yes it does seem that you cant Really focus on aerials with ike but to do follow up combos with ike is not impossible and not bad at all. Like you can easily do a jab jab combo into down smash which would send your opp up maybe lead it to an up smash, but in reality ike will not be top tier but be high tier. How high? not #1 but high.. and his aerials can make spacing so easy if done correctly

and lots of you might not now me but i do play competitive and live around the best : / md/va ftw <--(shamelss plug)

Everybody knows **** goes down in canada.

 

[payasofobia]

ike is high tier material,
his lack of mobility is compensated with his range, power and awesome moves(forward b, neutral be that can be used to counter the opponent atacks and spikes)

 

[IrishSheikah]

Ike must "protect his high-tier friends"

 

[Endless Nightmares]

ike is high tier material,
his lack of mobility is compensated with his range, power and awesome moves(forward b, neutral be that can be used to counter the opponent atacks and spikes)

Ike is definitely not "high tier material". His good points do not change the fact that he has several glaring weaknesses.

 

[Johnknight1]

There are no pros..."up until now"....in 2009!

Seriously ,we don't know. Anyone who thinks Ike is set to be permate top/high/mid/low/bottom tier for sure is RETARTED! Everyone who's played Brawl SUCKS SO FAR! Good Players are NOT Born, they are made, after hundreds of hours of hard work, determination, and AT LEAST two years of practice.

Seriously, how dumb can you people get? What next, the return of the "omg1!!!! Megaman Confirmed in Brawl (with Broly) " thread, or what=???

TIRES DON EXITS IN BRAWLZ....yet!!!...

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Doesn't mean we can't express out opinions on where we think he's gonna be =3

 

[Ti11erTheKi11er]

After reading about 1/3rd of the posts....seems to me people really need to wait and play it and not just act on the video's they have seen, for instance the L.A. final match posted on you tube

Kirby ***** and Ike.....IMO the Ike playing was not good what so ever the kirby was playing greater then decent and i think it's to early to tell low and high tiers and we have to wait for tournaments to start...going to be awhile before tiers will be established.

 

[VersatileBJN]

^ I KNOW you're not talking about the video between Ike and Kirkby with the items on and ****.


56k, what are some things you're worried about with Ike?

 

[payasofobia]

56k*ive seen plenty of videos where ike players defeated wolf,fox,hell,even marth etc, and marth is supposedly the most broken character in brawl, and those players, while not pros, are very good.

also, ike recovery is not bad, aether is understimated as a recovery, due to brawl increased floatiness it is now possible to get to the edge of the stage and use aether, which, thanks to super armor, is ungimpable.

PS:i know its still too soon to tell which tier he will be, im just stating a point in why i think ike may be high tier, and i know he wont be top tier nor he will be the top of the high tier, im just saying that he is very good, and should not be understimated because he is slow

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Now I'm not saying Ike can't win, I just don't think he will be anywhere near high tier. I mean hey, I played G&W in Melee, I know it's possible for every character to win.

What worries me? Mostly the immense starting and finishing lag on many of his moves, also the fact that his recovery is very easy to gimp. I played a fair share of Ganon in Melee and that's exactly what he reminds me of. Except that he's laggier than Melee Ganon and his up B lacks horizontal movement.

I also think it will be very easy to overwhelm Ike in battle...

 

[pljy]

That's where bair, counter, AAA, spacing, and mindgames come into play. But for the average player, yea ike can be easily overwhelmed.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Now I'm not saying Ike can't win, I just don't think he will be anywhere near high tier. I mean hey, I played G&W in Melee, I know it's possible for every character to win.

What worries me? Mostly the immense starting and finishing lag on many of his moves, also the fact that his recovery is very easy to gimp. I played a fair share of Ganon in Melee and that's exactly what he reminds me of. Except that he's laggier than Melee Ganon and his up B lacks horizontal movement.

I also think it will be very easy to overwhelm Ike in battle...

Well, I definitely don't think with proper spacing and counter that Ike will be easy to overwhelm. If this game had wave dashing and such I may have to agree.

I'm sure you've seen videos of Azen playing Ike, and the way he approached recovering is solid. A lot of Ikes seem to be afraid of QDing back onto the stage and always aimed for the ledge. This is where a lot of the gimping came from, and I havent' even mentioned aether yet, which is probably going to be the MORE used option for ike if he's anywhere below 120%

DI to the right, drop a little lower, use your 2nd jump, aether to the ledge.

As for start up time, that's really all proper spacing in my opinion. As you can see with Azen and Griever, proper spacing makes his hit box, range, and power overshadow his start up frames and recovery.

What I AM worried about with Ike is how he will be affected by people getting better with the PS. Switching up timings, or even jumping in empty to get throw opportunities may become an absolute necessity.

Still, when talking tiers one must compare what Ike brings to the table with what other characters will. No one compares to him in the area of range and power, but he is obviously slow and will be difficult to play. Mid tier is a possibility when this is taken into consideration in the next year or so.