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What do the pros think?

e105beta

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Since all of the Ike discussion/arguments on this board seem to be going nowhere. The fairly biased Ike supporters like me, the inanely supportive Ike supporters, and the "Ike sucks, brawl hasn't been out very long, but I know because I play melee competitively and hobnob with the people who actually ARE good" people make these discussions hard. I might need disillusioning, but Ike honestly seems low high tier material. Does anyone know what the pros think?
 

PwnageLlama

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Disclaimer: I AM NOT A PRO. READ THE FOLLOWING AT YOUR OWN RISK.

What do you mean by good?
How can you show a character is good without many tournaments?

*I* think that we will have to wait a loooong time before we know anything about the tiers.
 

Miller

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There are no Pros in Brawl yet, its been out for like a 3 weeks.

That doesnt mean we cant tell you what we think of it ;)

I honestly think that Ike will not be High Tier (going my melee's format -Top - High - Middle- etc)
I believe he will be Middle High, Around where Captain falcon was in Melee.

Hes an amazing character, but can be hard to use.

He may be knocked down because of Snake.
 

A2ZOMG

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I'm no pro, but I consider myself fairly unbiased towards characters.

Ike is really good. He's no Roy. He's really good in ways Captain Falcon was considered good in Melee, and more! He has great killing strength, insane hitboxes, and awesome mobility.
 

Endless Nightmares

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I don't like to mention tiers this early, but Ike will be low tier. About where Roy was in Melee, below the halfway point in the tier list.
 

Zankoku

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Awesome mobility? I must be missing something here, because I didn't think a character with the 10th slowest running speed, slow jumps, and floaty gravity would have awesome mobility.
 

SCOTU

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Both Azen and Ken play at least some Ike, so he's probably not bottom tier, but considering many other pros have picked up other characters that intuitively seem better, i'd say he's not top tier.
 

Miller

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the list of pros does not include miller fyi

haha thats why I said


That doesnt mean we cant tell you what we think of it
Awesome mobility? I must be missing something here, because I didn't think a character with the 10th slowest running speed, slow jumps, and floaty gravity would have awesome mobility.
People like to say he has awesome moblility because of quick draw, but to be honest, i only use it for approach when people are above me or off the edge.
 

VersatileBJN

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This topic sucks.

There are no pros in Brawl. People are still learning to play the game. Tiers are never even CLOSE to being formed this early into a fighting game's existence.

If I had to make a predction I would say he would be top 15. There are obviously ways around his speed if you watch people like Azen and Kirk use him.
 

Hokkaido

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I'm not going to say anything about tier, and I'm going to agree with several people that have posted that there are no 'pros' yet... but I'd have to say that to me, Ike certainly has one of the better attack priorities in the game, his reach is great and he has some quicker moves to boot. He reminds me of Ganondorf's position in melee (since Ganon's sorta changed for this game), except with tremendous reach.
 

Miller

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This topic sucks.

There are no pros in Brawl. People are still learning to play the game. Tiers are never even CLOSE to being formed this early into a fighting game's existence.

If I had to make a predction I would say he would be top 15. There are obviously ways around his speed if you watch people like Azen and Kirk use him.
Ive seen Azens videos, he isnt that great this time around.
 

Niko_K

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Not to sound biased or anything but just because Azen was ridiculously pro at Melee doesn't instantly make him amazingly awesome with Ike, sure he can carry on his mindgame skill but imho I wasn't too impressed with his Ike usage. Id like to see miller and azen fight on wifi, it would call from some great matches in my opinion, Miller plays a very exceptional ike and I do believe he would be able to contend with azens ike.

/expects 10000 flames
 

A2ZOMG

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Awesome mobility? I must be missing something here, because I didn't think a character with the 10th slowest running speed, slow jumps, and floaty gravity would have awesome mobility.
Quick Draw. It's a lot more versatile than you'd expect. Unlike most chargeable attacks, the charge stance on this one can be held indefinitely, and it has next to NO LAG when it misses (and Ike has plenty of fast attacks he can follow up with like his Jab or Uptilt). Ike's mobility is actually pretty darn intimidating with Quick Draw. It's like as fast as the Fox Illusion, but it doesn't suck horribly. Kirk really seems to get a lot of use out of it.

Yes he's horribly slow in Single button mode. WHO PLAYS THAT?
 

VersatileBJN

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Quick Draw will be a good move when it's all said and done, but some Ikes are using it far too much, while I also feel Azen isn't using it enough.

It's an option to diversify his approach. Attacking out of QD every single time also will not be good. Why not QD, block? QD, counter? QD, dash, throw? Diversify.

In my opinion, Ike players(and most Brawl players in general) aren't thinking outside of the box. The only players where I've truly been impressed with their innovation and creaitvity are Snakes users and Lucas to a lesser extent.
 

A2ZOMG

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I have to disagree with you. Super fast horizontal movement that either does damage or has next to no ending lag is pretty impressive if you ask me. Because Quick Draw can be held indefinitely, there is no punishing it when it automatically releases, because that simply doesn't happen. If you charge it up, your opponent is left guessing when you will release it. This is also why Snake counters Ike, because he DESTROYS this awesome mobility option that Ike has.

Heck, there is already an example of one move that gives tremendous mobility options. Bowser's Up-B in Melee. >_>
 

Hokkaido

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Quick Draw. It's a lot more versatile than you'd expect. Unlike most chargeable attacks, the charge stance on this one can be held indefinitely, and it has next to NO LAG when it misses (and Ike has plenty of fast attacks he can follow up with like his Jab or Uptilt). Ike's mobility is actually pretty darn intimidating with Quick Draw. It's like as fast as the Fox Illusion, but it doesn't suck horribly. Kirk really seems to get a lot of use out of it.

Yes he's horribly slow in Single button mode. WHO PLAYS THAT?
His Quick Draw has PLENTY of disadvantages to the point where I don't use it recklessly (including to simply travel around for kicks). The supposed and holy "Grand Viper" combo doesn't work very well against human opponents (at least not more than the first time if they're good... though I find adding a AAA combo at the end of this more reliable), and

THE ENDING LAG WHEN IT MISSES IS BAD.

Not to say as bad as whiffing his Forward Smash, but bad enough that your opponent could get in the deciding smash or chain you into combos that might cost the game... Since this move still forces Ike to swing his sword if the opponent rolls, side dodges or shields, you'd have to have a very intimate understanding of how far his Quick Draw goes to stop barely in front of your opponent- and even that won't work if you overuse it.
 

Miller

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Theres so many options against quick draw, for example.. SHIELDING, if you hit the person notice the massive end time on the move?, Yea we'll very punishable. Its usually luck that makes it somewhat effective.
 

Captain Sa10

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acotu has a point. Despite his awesome "grand Viper"/Quick Draw/"Oh Shiz! ITs Dr. Tran" move, Ike IS EXTREMELY SLOW(Although you get used to it). Although, all a round, yes, the Quick Draw is a great move for getting across the stange, although it still doesnt justify Ike's overall slow speed, and a bit laggy attacks(not that laggy, but still).
 

SCOTU

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it still has start up time, can easily be avoided/ punished with platforms, can be shielded. Despite what some may believe, a little lag =/= no lag. There IS lag on it, and it can be punished.
 

A2ZOMG

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I honestly don't think most characters that don't have multiple midair jumps are as mobile as Ike. Unless their name happens to be Sonic or Captain Falcon I guess. >_>

His slow running speed and jumps are barely noticeable compared to those of most other characters.

You act like Ike is always abusing Quick Draw and always getting punished by the lag. That only means he's using it badly. Anyone can use any technique badly. My point is most characters don't have nearly as impressive of a mobility altering device as Ike does, and for the purpose of mindgames, the ending lag is extremely low. Most people are going to want to shield the approach, so if it misses, he's free to do what he wants. Also helping Ike is his MASSIVE range, which again most people don't have, so this gives him even more time to react with whatever if he does this right. I might be a tad biased towards Kirk, but he seriously does have several very good examples of how to use Quick Draw.
 

Hostility

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Ike to me seems like a mid tier character He's got great range, his attacks just wreck people, and he has great priority and a lot of approach options, but he has a lot of weaknesses. He is really weak against campers and certain projectiles. and he is one of the easier characters to gimp offstage.
 

Miller

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QUICK DRAW ISNT AS FUKKEN GREAT AS YOU THINK, GET OVER THE FACT THAT ITS EXTREMELY PUNISHABLE AND HAS NO MINDGAME VALUE
The whole "Grand Viper" think isnt great either. It has no mindgame value, you have to mindgame them into it.

Jesus Fukken Christ
 

A2ZOMG

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Ike easy to gimp? Hardly. Aether is probably one of the hardest Up-Bs in the game to intercept.

You can't say anything has no mindgame value when fighting games are ALL ABOUT MINDGAMES btw.

Heck, virtually everything is punishable in some way. I'm still pretty convinced that there are many ways Quick Draw can be used effectively. I'm not denying it's punishable. Of course if Ike messes it up, he can get punished. However this move does seem to give him unique options.
 

Hokkaido

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I honestly don't think most characters that don't have multiple midair jumps are as mobile as Ike. Unless their name happens to be Sonic or Captain Falcon I guess. >_>

His slow running speed and jumps are barely noticeable compared to those of most other characters.

You act like Ike is always abusing Quick Draw and always getting punished by the lag. That only means he's using it badly. Anyone can use any technique badly. My point is most characters don't have nearly as impressive of a mobility altering device as Ike does, and for the purpose of mindgames, the ending lag is extremely low. Most people are going to want to shield the approach, so if it misses, he's free to do what he wants. Also helping Ike is his MASSIVE range, which again most people don't have, so this gives him even more time to react with whatever if he does this right. I might be a tad biased towards Kirk, but he seriously does have several very good examples of how to use Quick Draw.
Believe me from my experience, if you whiff or get shielded on the Side-B, you're going to be punished if your opponent knows what he's doing. While the move is good in terms of speed, even a move such as Fox Illusion will be predictable enough for people to intercept (Quick Draw is also pretty susceptible to interrupting projectiles and Pikmin... D:).
 

SCOTU

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too bad to gimp ike all you have to do is hit him with any attack before he gets under the stage. the QD is even easier to gimp.

The QD does have mindgame value, just no so much mobility mindgame. It's a good techchase fosho
 

VersatileBJN

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Precisely.

People are acting like QD is safe no matter what. It isn't.

Projectiles beat it, and most importantly, BLOCKING BEATS IT.

This is why I can't stress enough that using the move effectively means you need to use it sparingly and EFFICIENTLY.

Put yourself in the shoes of the opponent.

If I see Ike spamming QD on me all day I am going to block. If they are doing it so they miss me just by a little to negate recovery? I will move forward and block. Then I will punish.

The way of thought among Ike players imo is far too narrow and black and white. Being predictable with Ike, more so than most, is almost certainly going to put you at an disadvantage.

I believe he will be at his best when you are SPACING WELL, taking advantage of his range as well as his disjointed hitbox, AND most importantly, READING YOUR OPPONENTS.

just my .02s.

I personally cannot wait to get my hands on this game and play this guy. There is just no way he's going to be crappy if used proper.
 

Hostility

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Ike easy to gimp? Hardly. Aether is probably one of the hardest Up-Bs in the game to intercept.

You can't say anything has no mindgame value when fighting games are ALL ABOUT MINDGAMES btw.
You can jump off and get hit from the forward B, and I've been hit out of his Up B with just projectiles since the move doesn't auto sweet spot. His recovery is not all that safe.
 

Hokkaido

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What does more damage between dash attack and QD with Ike?

Dash attack is probaby a good tech catch too, no?
I think one of the guides has it, but I'm sure it's safe to keep it mixed up... not to mention if the distance is right, you can use a well-timed/tapped Quick Draw to instantly get to your opponent to use another quick move as an alternate opportunity.
 

A2ZOMG

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About Aether, like...recovery is ridiculously easy in Brawl. Almost nobody can attack at the low vertical level Ike jumps from in order to grab the ledge with Aether (except for Snake really, more reason why he counters Ike). It's attack properties far outweigh the short horizontal distance it gains, because the move essentially cannot be ledgehogged. Although recovery is generally easy, most other Up-Bs can be ledgehogged with some good timing. Aether is significantly harder to ledgehog.

I'm not recommending spamming Quick Draw at all. I understand how it is punishable. I still argue that Ike has several attributes that make it a viable tactic in several situations (just to name one you guys haven't mentioned, Kirk has gotten several ledgehog kills with Quick draw which enables him to more quickly reach the ledge from a distance). And remember, Ike still wins massively over most other characters in the range department even with an attack like his Jab which comes out plenty fast. Attacks like this give Ike an even bigger buffer zone over the fairly low ending lag. He is the ONLY character who can even consider a tactic like this, which is regardless a win for him in mindgame options.

EDIT: Dash attack is also a good techchase. It briefly moves faster than his Dash, and comes out faster than Quick Draw. It does less damage but has more horizontal knockback.
 

e105beta

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Lol, has smash boards been sucking up gamefaqs posters?, cause this was fast. This is fun just to observe. Fortunately, this is the kind of conversation I was looking for. *sits back and drinks his coffee*
 
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