Fortress
Smash Master
I feel like, having only been playing since the start of the year, that I'm not allowed to say anything about the spacies, or I'll be exiled.
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What do the Melee Legends think of P:M?
- Thread starter Wingflier
- Start date
JOE!
Smash Hero
To the shadow realm, yes.
Fortress
Smash Master
Only in the 4Kids version.
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2012
- Messages
- 413
His hammer covers the whole screen and he now has a reflector.
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
Fox is still better.
Sluigi123
R64/Brawl- Dev; AI Coder; Balancer
So what that Fox is top tier in Melee? Fox is Fox. Falcon is Falcon.
JOE!
Smash Hero
The question is: why are they what they are / as good as they are? Why are they so well liked? How can the PMBR make characters like them without overshadowing them or feeling "cheap"?
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2012
- Messages
- 413
This for 3.0
KariteSama
Smash Apprentice
1.) StrongBad is such a bro. Put an incomparable amount of work into P:M and DK. I mean I could play 5 years of Falco and probably still get 4 stocked by that DK.
2.) This might be the least on topic thread ever. Like after 5 posts it became a "P:M community vs Maylay" thread. Damn.
2.) This might be the least on topic thread ever. Like after 5 posts it became a "P:M community vs Maylay" thread. Damn.
SacaSuMoto
Smash Journeyman
Instead of buffing all the characters, they should all be super nerfed.
Buffing characters with bigger hitboxes, less lag in strong moves, janky hit box and angles, silly recoveries that make one harder to Gimp are a whole bunch of fluff. Creates one dimensional gameplay (can still be considered smart, good, and other shiz)
P:M should stop trying to be "better than melee", it's not and it won't ever be. Melee, in the competitive sense, was about creating a piece of art out of something imperfect. P:M shouldn't be trying to recreate that same art with their shortcut "fixes", instead they should give a spare amount of tools for people to put their heart into it and create new,different works of art.
Whenever I play P:M, because someone brought it or something (I don't own it), they keep telling me about all the changes and the buffs, the nerfs, the new moves, details details. All I wanna do is get some sets in, some good play you know? I don't care about details, let's just play. Then they use a char that I don't know, I use I char I know more or less to get my bearings. It takes sometime and concentration to learn and recognize new hit/hurt boxes and ****. And if your strategy only revolves around the jank hit boxes, with underdeveloped basics and roots, then I won't have fun playing with you in the long run.
I think there's quite a lot to respect when sakurai said that no matter how the game is designed there will always be "crazy maniacs" playing the game. Think about speed runners, Mario 64 wasn't intended to be played that way LOL but because the game had a lot of exploitable potential and overall was a good game with good tunes it became what it is today. the canvas was always there, all you had to do was hand someone the controller and say "paint"
Don't give me PM characters with obvious moves to exploit, make me want to play the game for hours to find the hidden gems with my char for perhaps some pontential for exploitation, it's all about letting me explore and learn. Not give me give me give me. *******
you guys seem to care a lot about what others think of your game who gives a ****? the only thing that actually matters is that you believe in yourself and your own game. the brawl players must have believed in their game and themselves for them to stick with it even when all the melee ppl were switching back and saying "brawl is lame"
Buffing characters with bigger hitboxes, less lag in strong moves, janky hit box and angles, silly recoveries that make one harder to Gimp are a whole bunch of fluff. Creates one dimensional gameplay (can still be considered smart, good, and other shiz)
P:M should stop trying to be "better than melee", it's not and it won't ever be. Melee, in the competitive sense, was about creating a piece of art out of something imperfect. P:M shouldn't be trying to recreate that same art with their shortcut "fixes", instead they should give a spare amount of tools for people to put their heart into it and create new,different works of art.
Whenever I play P:M, because someone brought it or something (I don't own it), they keep telling me about all the changes and the buffs, the nerfs, the new moves, details details. All I wanna do is get some sets in, some good play you know? I don't care about details, let's just play. Then they use a char that I don't know, I use I char I know more or less to get my bearings. It takes sometime and concentration to learn and recognize new hit/hurt boxes and ****. And if your strategy only revolves around the jank hit boxes, with underdeveloped basics and roots, then I won't have fun playing with you in the long run.
I think there's quite a lot to respect when sakurai said that no matter how the game is designed there will always be "crazy maniacs" playing the game. Think about speed runners, Mario 64 wasn't intended to be played that way LOL but because the game had a lot of exploitable potential and overall was a good game with good tunes it became what it is today. the canvas was always there, all you had to do was hand someone the controller and say "paint"
Don't give me PM characters with obvious moves to exploit, make me want to play the game for hours to find the hidden gems with my char for perhaps some pontential for exploitation, it's all about letting me explore and learn. Not give me give me give me. *******
you guys seem to care a lot about what others think of your game who gives a ****? the only thing that actually matters is that you believe in yourself and your own game. the brawl players must have believed in their game and themselves for them to stick with it even when all the melee ppl were switching back and saying "brawl is lame"
Chzrm3
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2008
- Messages
- 625
- 3DS FC
- 3926-5442-3703
That'd be great if it was feasible, but how do you just design a character with the hidden depth of Fox or Ice Climbers? I'm not trying to be snarky or dismissive, I'm straight up asking - how is that done? How would you do that? Sakurai and his Melee development team couldn't even answer that question, because it just happened by accident. So is the answer "make characters with random moves and see what turns into something great - you'll know in 2 years if it worked or not?" I'm not even sure that's possible, since the PMBR understands so much about what works and doesn't work in this environment, they've probably have a really hard time distancing themselves from the character process that much.
I'm not even sure the end result would be worth it. Even if they were able to emulate that crazy method of character development, what would happen? PM would mayyybe end up with 1 or 2 characters on the level of Falco or Peach, and the rest would probably be a mess. I don't think anybody involved in the project, or anybody actively playing PM, wants that at all.
How about we drop the name Project M when 3.0/whatever 'official' version comes out and give it a cool 'SSB Tournament Edition'-esque name that can encompass the INFLUENCE of ALL 3 GAMES that it successfully borrowed and implemented. That's what this game is about, right? Competition, fast gameplay, tournaments, best of both worlds kinda thing? Kinda makes the forced design thing a little easier to swallow? Hmm? Hmm? BAM. No one is mad it isnt melee, cuz it isn't and it should say so.
Carry on.
Carry on.
Fortress
Smash Master
This. I don't understand where people get off saying that P:M needs to 'quit being maylay'. I mean, the P:M website says that it's not at all intended to be a 1:1 clone of Melee. To be honest, I don't understand how making characters worse so that people can find things to exploit to maybe give them a chance of playing in their own tiers makes any sense. There were, what, like eight characters who were truly tournament viable in Melee? So, the PM:BR is expected to make the game not like Melee, but be like Melee in that the majority of the cast is complete **** in the hopes that some janky, random-ass **** will redeem them? Yeah, I don't buy into that, and think the sentiment is ridiculous. Nerfing the **** out of the cast isn't going to help any. Yeah, I think some characters feel canned and a little too strong in some aspects (looking at you, Ivy), but I don't understand how giving the entire cast a chance to compete on even ground is a bad thing.
In fact, I think some people are downright jaded.
It's easy to talk about these nebulous concepts but it's very hard to actually come up with concrete suggestions for how the game could be improved. What can be gained from criticising the overall philosophy of the game, without getting down to the actual details that would help move the game forward?
That's going to happen anyway! In any competitive game, no matter how it was "intended to be played", there is always emergent gameplay and a shifting metagame. I know that PM isn't going to have that same sense of wonder and discovery, but how could it? It's designed by competitive gamers instead of wacky programmers who were halfway between wanting to make a fighting game and a party game. PM is to Melee as Skullgirls is to Street Fighter II.
Couldn't agree more.
I was half-joking about renaming the mod, although 'Project M' doesn't help clarify or define its own image. I'm indifferent. But yea, what you said was pretty much my point.
This amount of uproar over changing the memorable top characters in this game, that's not supposed to be a mirror remake of it's 'spiritual predecessor', not officially branded, not a final version, just a mod, etc, is too damn high.
M is STILL IN THE WORKS, with no clear indication of a 'final' version. So why not nerf the spacies for now? They'll probably have many more versions to change things back. So many people want to see what that's like, and that should be OK because M is STILL IN THE WORKS.
If I had no clear deadline for a project i was working on, I would definitely do silly things with my actual work because I want to see what will happen and if it works. If it doesn't, then I can change it because its STILL IN THE WORKS. Given, this situation is vastly different, but we still have this luxury with M.
So let's try it. Besides, even if melee top tiers get nerfed or altered significantly, people are just going to use the next best character regardless of who they are. It happens in pretty much every competitive game that gets altered/patched.
smashbro29
Smash Champion
I think an issue is that it's still called "demo" serious competitors don't want to invest the serious time and energy into a mod that can and probably will change 6 months down the line. Once the game is final this will be a more legitimate question.
JOE!
Smash Hero
JOE!
Smash Hero
Real talk though:
Picture it like this: everybody is super nerfed to like, the level of Melee Kirby via hitbox changes, timing differences, damage nerfs, whatever. Inherit thinks like Marth's disjoints would always give him a literal edge in most cases vs those who do not have the means to combat that, and so on. In this sense, he would fit the definition of "jank" because compared to everyone else, he has zany disjointed hitboxes even though they deal less damage or whatever.
What the revitalized characters bring to the table are attributes that are in a way comparable to Marth's sword: they give them a unique edge against others that they can use in unique ways. Sure, some need polish, but that is the luxury of being in constant development: the Dev team have a canvas, and they're constantly making new works to share that can make up for their previous ones.
In it's current state, it is nearly Melee in physics/etc. My personal view is: if/when P:M becomes 1-1 Melee in terms of physics, where only subjective things like the character models (changeable) is the major difference... then mechanically wouldn't P:M be a better game than Melee as it has Melee *in it*, plus so much more in terms or characters / stages / strategies? Even with the outstanding legacy and community of Melee, that is still around and can never be replaced: it's history is a part of the community as a whole. However, the Melee Players do seem to enjoy P:M on average when they play it even in an "unfinished" state, so who knows? Maybe the legacy may just live on even after the Melee scene unfortunately dwindles with time (it sucks to think about, but this is kindof an absolute that happens with *everything*).
To put it in perspective, right now it's sort of like that time period where one guy just figured some new trick out that works well (lets say Waveshining or comboing into Rest) and everybody has to catch up, only it's sort of happening with a whole bunch of people with a whole bunch of characters all at once, which can really put a wrench in things somebody has grown accustomed to for many years.
As for the handing the controller and saying paint, is that not what the Dev Team are doing with their coding paintbrushes and Brawl canvas?
There will ALWAYS be moves and strategies that exploit the strengths of said moves/tactics, see above when I talked about how as long as Marth has a disjointed sword, he will always have an edge over others.[/quote]
So, everybody should be super-nerfed to the same level then, right? How is that different than buffing everybody to the same level? If they are on a level playing field, they're on a level playing field and even then the moves and toolsets would be compared to be better/worse relative to each other.
Picture it like this: everybody is super nerfed to like, the level of Melee Kirby via hitbox changes, timing differences, damage nerfs, whatever. Inherit thinks like Marth's disjoints would always give him a literal edge in most cases vs those who do not have the means to combat that, and so on. In this sense, he would fit the definition of "jank" because compared to everyone else, he has zany disjointed hitboxes even though they deal less damage or whatever.
What the revitalized characters bring to the table are attributes that are in a way comparable to Marth's sword: they give them a unique edge against others that they can use in unique ways. Sure, some need polish, but that is the luxury of being in constant development: the Dev team have a canvas, and they're constantly making new works to share that can make up for their previous ones.
In some people's eyes yes. But at the same time, what started as a Project to simply be a spiritual successor / tribute to what makes Melee so awesome has sort of become it's own thing. Many people even started with P:M as their first smash, and many people who started competitively with Brawl have taken to P:M as well.
In it's current state, it is nearly Melee in physics/etc. My personal view is: if/when P:M becomes 1-1 Melee in terms of physics, where only subjective things like the character models (changeable) is the major difference... then mechanically wouldn't P:M be a better game than Melee as it has Melee *in it*, plus so much more in terms or characters / stages / strategies? Even with the outstanding legacy and community of Melee, that is still around and can never be replaced: it's history is a part of the community as a whole. However, the Melee Players do seem to enjoy P:M on average when they play it even in an "unfinished" state, so who knows? Maybe the legacy may just live on even after the Melee scene unfortunately dwindles with time (it sucks to think about, but this is kindof an absolute that happens with *everything*).
The problem with this statement is that many things in Melee are more or less mirrors of many things designed in P:M (or should that be reverse?). Sure, many characters have some odd new tools that'll take adjustments to get used to, such as say Charizard's Nair. However, as an example: remember when it was discovered that Marth had that weakspot below him that made him not as godlike as first imagined? Things like that have both yet to be discovered, or in reverse things that can make up for said weaknesses such as new ATs and whatnot have been rapidly discovered thanks to the same 12 years of melee.
To put it in perspective, right now it's sort of like that time period where one guy just figured some new trick out that works well (lets say Waveshining or comboing into Rest) and everybody has to catch up, only it's sort of happening with a whole bunch of people with a whole bunch of characters all at once, which can really put a wrench in things somebody has grown accustomed to for many years.
So, your complaint here is that you don't like it when people are excited over what is in the game / new version.... and you get frustrated when you encounter said new things and don't have immediate knowledge of how to work around them?
As a developer myself, I can tell you right now that developer and even creative intent if we want to go that far means jack ****. The moment you give your product to the hands of the public they all skew it, tear it apart and hold it in a different light to fit their personal views. It will ALWAYS happen with any media.
As for the handing the controller and saying paint, is that not what the Dev Team are doing with their coding paintbrushes and Brawl canvas?
You're telling me even in melee there weren't things that were obvious from the get go? Sure, stuff like Jigg's rest was weird and probably took a while to figure out, but stuff like Ganon's Dair? The moment you hit it for the first time you realize: holy crap this murders people downward!
There will ALWAYS be moves and strategies that exploit the strengths of said moves/tactics, see above when I talked about how as long as Marth has a disjointed sword, he will always have an edge over others.[/quote]
Fortress
Smash Master
Make the game like Melee, Melee players complain that it's not close enough to Melee. Make P:M its own deal, Melee players complain that it's not Melee at all.
Can the PM:BR ever win?
Can the PM:BR ever win?
MagnesD3
Smash Master
The Pm:Br is winning its just the hate always sounds louder than the love.
quick reminder that technical knowledge IS NOT A GOD DAMN DISADVANTAGE IF IT'S A NONEXISTENT ENTITY AT A TOP LEVEL, WHERE TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE IS A REQUIREMENT ON EVERYONE TO BEGIN WITH
"oh, but this player messed up once so that's entirely on the character!!!" no, that's on the god damn player, you miserable neanderthal, jesus christ why does this need repeating a million times over for anyone to understand it
"oh, but this player messed up once so that's entirely on the character!!!" no, that's on the god damn player, you miserable neanderthal, jesus christ why does this need repeating a million times over for anyone to understand it
JOE!
Smash Hero
Because messing up is totally never MY fault.
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
also, it's PMBR, not PM:BR.
Mithost
Smash Ace
Hey look, actually relevant information!
Like always, whenever a Melee Pro AMA comes up on reddit, I ask the same question: "What is your opinion on Project M and it's Development?" Here is another response, this time from SmasherM3D/Jason.
Like always, whenever a Melee Pro AMA comes up on reddit, I ask the same question: "What is your opinion on Project M and it's Development?" Here is another response, this time from SmasherM3D/Jason.
You can find the comment here: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...melee_changed_my_life_i_ran/cdgleie?context=3
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Shouldn't it be P:MBR tho
I mean it is "Project:M"
Virum
Smash Ace
It's actually Pumbr :V
robosteven
Smash Lord
I don't understand any of these posts claiming that P:M "isn't trying to be Melee and never has," especially considering that the loading screen literally calls it Melee 2.0. I get that the point is to "re-make Brawl as Melee players were hoping," but you can't really say that and then, when someone complains that it's not similar enough to Melee, turn around and say "it's not supposed to be a Melee copy." I mean, of course it's not a Melee copy, but with a name like Project Melee and "Melee 2.0," it's hard not to be picky.
Frankly, for obvious reasons, Melee vets look at that with skepticism and there's really no way of changing that. Plus, with a name like "Project M" and the idea of making a mod of Brawl that plays similar enough to Melee will instantly be compared to Melee upon trying it out. Those that look at it that way will immediately try to find the flaws and that really doesn't go over well with a game.
As mentioned before in this thread, when most people were switching from Smash 64 to Melee, they (mostly) weren't upset with physics changes. They adapted. They learned to play a new game and figured out the new elements and characters. ...If the mod is presented in the light of "it's the physics of Melee in the game of Brawl," people are going to cling to everything they know about Melee, and for many, that's a lot. That being said, it's obvious why we don't "simply play Brawl."
I just
It's a mod to make a game more like what we Melee vets were hoping for when we heard about Brawl, and that's personally why I play it and adore it. Plus, it's still a work in progress. It's not perfect, and it's not exactly Melee.
...But it's close enough to what I wanted Brawl to be, and for that reason I'm sticking with it.
Frankly, for obvious reasons, Melee vets look at that with skepticism and there's really no way of changing that. Plus, with a name like "Project M" and the idea of making a mod of Brawl that plays similar enough to Melee will instantly be compared to Melee upon trying it out. Those that look at it that way will immediately try to find the flaws and that really doesn't go over well with a game.
As mentioned before in this thread, when most people were switching from Smash 64 to Melee, they (mostly) weren't upset with physics changes. They adapted. They learned to play a new game and figured out the new elements and characters. ...If the mod is presented in the light of "it's the physics of Melee in the game of Brawl," people are going to cling to everything they know about Melee, and for many, that's a lot. That being said, it's obvious why we don't "simply play Brawl."
I just
It's a mod to make a game more like what we Melee vets were hoping for when we heard about Brawl, and that's personally why I play it and adore it. Plus, it's still a work in progress. It's not perfect, and it's not exactly Melee.
...But it's close enough to what I wanted Brawl to be, and for that reason I'm sticking with it.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Well, technically it's not trying to be Melee. It's trying to be the next step for Melee.
MagnesD3
Smash Master
I know.... I only did it that way because the post I was quoting did it that way... also does it really matter? :x
One might consider this semantics, but...
Technically, the game is called "Project M", as the "M" is supposed to allude to Melee, but at the same, it isn't Melee.
There is a Project Melee, but that is a texture mod for Melee itself.
"Melee 2.0" on the gecko os screen is a relic of the distant past and doesn't coincide with what is currently Project M.
The idea of Melee 2.0 might of been there before, but it really isn't now.
Any inconsistencies you find in relation to the "Project M" branding is not intentional, and there is a probably reason for it.
But know this, we are aiming for a spiritual successor that recaptures the essence of Melee, and much more.
Paradoxium
Smash Master
their youtube page is called project melee 
QQQQQQQ7777777
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2013
- Messages
- 2,300
Oh good, a PMBR member. Hey, why is it called Demo 2.6b instead of Beta/Alpha 2.6b? (I believe) A Demo is more of a smaller portion of the full/complete product while a Beta/Alpha is more of a incomplete version of the product.
This is probably just a trivial question, but I just felt like asking it.
their youtube page is called project melee
This includes the YouTube channel.
I actually was on leave at the time of 2.6b's release. So I don't have the answer on hand, as I was absent during the naming portion. You'd have to ask another PMBR member who was here for a definite answer. Sorry!
Anther
Smash Champion
Q7's question is even more specific. The 2.6b part isn't important.
He's asking why the whole project is called "Project M Demo X" instead of "Project M Beta".
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
Win what? Let the lovers love and the haters hate. They have a dedicated community playing their game and it's not even finished yet, I'm pretty ****ing sure they're winning. As much as Melee influenced the project and as dear as Melee is to many of the developers, this just isn't Melee and nobody is denying that.
To whoever thought this wasn't relevant to the topic at hand: it is, but it is also beginning to veer off course. It describes a perspective that is held by some players, which in all probability is actually shared by at least one Melee "legend".
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
Project M was taken.their youtube page is called project melee