Were Rosalina and Luma necessary?

[HugoBoss]

But Yoshi is it's own series with it's own wide variety of very defined mechanics that are separate from the Mario games, that, to be quite honest, fit into Smash like a glove. Plus, Yoshis have some really important connections and nuances in their games that help the player get more invested in caring about the Yoshis, and even have this quality in Super Mario World and Galaxy 2 (for example, in Yoshi's Story, your lives are represented by individual Yoshis - once one is captured, it's gone for good, and Yoshis are not infinite in it). So no, Yoshi was a very worthy addition, despite being a part of a race and not really being a single character.

And no, I am not undermining Toad to make Rosalina seem better or more important than she is (frankly, I don't need to), but Toads are to Mario what Flickies are to Sonic. Flickies even starred in their own game, which is something people ALWAYS overlook when I make the comparison between Flickies and Toads, and then they try to pretend Toad is more important in Mario than Flickies are in Sonic:

As for Chao, I didn't even bring them into this because they are EXTREMELY important in various Sonic games, both plot wise and otherwise. Even the latest mobile Sonic game from Hardlight, Sonic Jump Fever, which came out just yesterday, features Chao.

And Blaze has arguably more important roles than Rosalina has (saying this as someone who likes Rosalina more). She starred alongside Sonic in Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure, and was playable in Sonic '06, and had a very big role in that game's story (crap as it may be). She's appeared in various spin-offs too, and was also in Sonic Generations as one of the friends Sonic had to save, who were attending Sonic's birthday party. In terms of purpose, though, they are pretty similar characters, being ladies of authourity and power, who take action and have emotional instabilities and have a diverse amount of powers with no clear boundaries. Blaze also has a motherly side, as demonstrated by her relationship with Cream, Cheese, and Marine.

And I don't see how comparing Blaze to Rosalina is a bad thing or insulting either one, as they are both appealing and really well written and nuanced characters.

And sorry, but saying Yoshi and Toad are single characters that just so happen to name themselves after their species is nothing more than a flimsy headcanon.

And I didn't use personal reasons for Toad and BJ, I've went through them many times already.

BJ is a poorly handled character, end of story. His story in Sunshine doesn't get a true resolution with no sign of us ever getting a resolution to it (we still don't know who his mother is, and he only cared about kidnapping Peach because he believed her to be his mother. Getting to meet and spend time with his mother was his entire motivation for doing what he did in Sunshine, and he never got to even meet her, since Peach wasn't really his mother), he doesn't have anything particularly unique that he could do (the Paint Brush may seem like this at first, but in actuality, his paint powers in Sunshine only damaged things at a slow rate, and created two or three specific enemies. And transformed him into a Mario copy, which, well, we already had Dr. Mario for. None of these things are unique to Smash). And since Sunshine, he's played very replaceable roles (as in, it would not have made a difference if it was a generic Koopa Troopa piloting those mechs in Galaxy) and hardly even gets acknowledged by Bowser (except this isn't a plot point, they simply shoe horned Bowser. Jr into Galaxy and NSMB - his roles in those games were extremely unimportant to the point that they didn't even make scenes between him and Bowser, which is most jarring in Galaxy's case, as that game had a fairly strong focus on story and plot elements).

Do I hate Bowser. Jr? No. Do I think he's a character with a ton of untapped potential? Yes. Do I think Nintendo will ever tap into that potential? No, I have no reason to believe they will, nor does anybody else. And as a result, there is no reason for anyone to objectively accept that Bowser. Jr has a justified place in Smash, and certainly not over Rosalina, who was objectively written much better and has limitless potential moveset wise anyway, and I've actually been given consistent reasoning to care about and be charmed by the character. I don't care if Bowser. Jr came first. That means nothing. You don't like a character based on the fact they existed longer, anyone who uses that argument is grasping at straws for a character who has little actual merit.

As for Toad, again - Toads are extras. We have Captain Toad and Toadsworth, who are endearing characters, but they are completely unsuitable for fighting (One of Captain Toad's defining characteristics is that he CAN'T JUMP, which, needless to say, causes problems in Smash). Plus, Toads are born cowards, and fighting is against their nature (they often hide behind Peach - which makes Peach's neutral B very funny, as she is forcing them to stand guard in front of her, for once). Plus - Toad literally has done NOTHING that Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina don't already do. In NSMB, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are exact clones of Mario and Luigi. And in SMB2 USA and 3D World, only Toad's properties differ from the other characters. The Toads don't have unique abilities in those games.

The exact thing I wished did not happen, happened. As I said before, I'm not interested in long-winded and very subjective debates over who "deserves" Smash Bros thank you very much, because to be brutally honest, none of them were needed and mandatory(not Bowser Jr, not Toad, and not even Rosalina), but their inclusions are very much justified. You just turned what was supposed to be a discussion about how each requested Mario rep is equally justified in their own way (like Rosalina!)into this debate over who is more deserving, which is entirely off-topic and had absolutely nothing to do with anything I was saying, in the end just moving the goal post . I'm not trying to argue who"better", I don't care who is "better", I don 't care what you have to say about who's "better" , because I welcome Rosalina and Bowser Jr and Toad equally with open arms to the Smashverse among other newcomers. You just seem very desperate to argue Rosalina's "needing" to be in the game and her "superiority" among other Mario characters, without actually hearing other people out. I could honestly have counter-arguments to every thing you just said~but why bother, the moment you stated WHO was more justified rather then stating WHY Rosalina is justified, all was lost.




And to answer the thread again, no, she wasn't. Neither was any of the other newcomers.

 

[ChikoLad]

The exact thing I wished did not happen, happened. As I said before, I'm not interested in long-winded and very subjective debates over who "deserves" Smash Bros thank you very much, because to be brutally honest, none of them were needed and mandatory(not Bowser Jr, not Toad, and not even Rosalina), but their inclusions are very much justified. You just turned what was supposed to be a discussion about how each requested Mario rep is equally justified in their own way (like Rosalina!)into this debate over who is more deserving, which is entirely off-topic and had absolutely nothing to do with anything I was saying, in the end just moving the goal post . I'm not trying to argue who"better", I don't care who is "better", I don 't care what you have to say about who's "better" , because I welcome Rosalina and Bowser Jr and Toad equally with open arms to the Smashverse among other newcomers. You just seem very desperate to argue Rosalina's "needing" to be in the game and her "superiority" among other Mario characters, without actually hearing other people out. I could honestly have counter-arguments to every thing you just said~but why bother, the moment you stated WHO was more justified rather then stating WHY Rosalina is justified, all was lost.




And to answer the thread again, no, she wasn't. Neither was any of the other newcomers.

No, as I already had to re-iterate plenty of times, I never thought Rosalina was necessary to make the game good, and she was no more than a closet addition to my wishlist before her reveal. Stop saying I'm doing one thing, just so you can avoid making a compelling point or accepting what I have to say for what it is.

My point is that, Bowser. Jr and Toad are both less justified (as they have not done much to justify even being terribly likeable as characters) and had much less moveset potential than Rosalina, objectively (don't even try to say a piece of fungus and Bowser's son, who would have no more potential than a baby version of Bowser, could do more than a space goddess who has powers with unknown boundaries). Regardless of whether or not Rosalina was necessary to make the game good (which she isn't), she was the best possible choice for a 5th rep from the main Mario series.

Also, who are you to say what a discussion is supposed to be about? Going off of the topic title, this topic was never supposed to have anything to do with anyone besides Rosalina & Luma to begin with.

 

[HugoBoss]

No, as I already had to re-iterate plenty of times, I never thought Rosalina was necessary to make the game good, and she was no more than a closet addition to my wishlist before her reveal. Stop saying I'm doing one thing, just so you can avoid making a compelling point or accepting what I have to say for what it is.

My point is that, Bowser. Jr and Toad are both less justified (as they have not done much to justify even being terribly likeable as characters) and had much less moveset potential than Rosalina, objectively (don't even try to say a piece of fungus and Bowser's son, who would have no more potential than a baby version of Bowser, could do more than a space goddess who has powers with unknown boundaries). Regardless of whether or not Rosalina was necessary to make the game good (which she isn't), she was the best possible choice for a 5th rep from the main Mario series.

Also, who are you to say what a discussion is supposed to be about? Going off of the topic title, this topic was never supposed to have anything to do with anyone besides Rosalina & Luma to begin with.

Fine, but I never mentioned anything about adding a character to make the game better, But if that character was necessary to rep a franchise. As 5th Mario rep, which is debatable to being needed, I said she was not a mandatory and necessary newcomer to represent the Mario franchise but was a justified and reasonable choice, not if her inclusion is needed to make the game better which it won't.And going by the 4 pages and your last sentence, that would mean everyone's off-topic, technically speaking, making you and I hypocrites for blaming each other for going off-topic. But what I meant by going off-topic has nothing to do with me being some dictator of discussion, my apologies if it did. My post was adding on to RaccoonBL's post on why characters are not needed but justified by stating that the other contenders for Mario newcomers mentioned not only in this thread but this sub-forum are as well justified which provided other examples of why characters should not be viewed as needed but justified, I clearly was not saying if anyone was more justified, nor was I planning to discuss it. My point was that I wasn't talking about who is a better newcomer but why each contender is a great one(as shown in my reply), in which you replied to me on who is a better when I did state that anyone was, which came out of nowhere. I regret even replying honestly, I hate arguing (ironic). But is it possible to discuss in a forum without it becoming another character war?
I was not trying to antagonize you, nor was I trying to say that Rosalina is not justified because she certainly is, and I am happy they choice what to me is one of the best additions to not only the Mario series but the Smash roster. I'm not really into these necessary and deserving talks though, it's very subjective and ostracizing. Last post, I swear.

 

[ihskeyp]

Why is this thread even still active? There is no such thing as a necessary character. Smash doesn't follow a storyline (except smash bros brawl but even then, characters were just thrown about) so there is no way to tell if a character is completely necessary. She fits in with the smash cast, I think that's all that matters.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not into discussing how characters "deserve a spot" because when people discuss that, they always favour certain characters automatically, but in this case, there is a very clear difference in quality and significance between Rosalina and the other suggestions. The only two things that "justifies" a Smash roster spot to me (justify =/= deserve, just so we're clear) are:

1) The character has interesting moveset potential.
2) The character has been well defined and portrayed in an appealing manner at some point. Or, in the case of characters like Mr. Game & Watch, then there must be room to give them a charming personality in Smash.

Rosalina objectively fills those roles more than any other Mario character, specifically in the main series. That's what I'm getting at. I'm not going to say the others are equally justified just to be nice to people who like those characters, I'll say it like it is.

I don't even need to explain the moveset potential part, though the second part actually links into it really well. All you have to do is look at what these characters can do and see what they have done in the past, and no matter what way you look at it, Rosalina will come out on top. She's an implied goddess, VS Bowser's son, a piece of living and docile fungus, and a normal human princess (which would be Daisy - Peach, at the very least, had established herself as a magic user before her Smash debut).
In fact, I think Luma - yes, Luma alone - would have MUCH more moveset potential than Toad, Bowser. Jr, and Daisy. Because Lumas have the ability to transform into all kinds of things, and it's known that those things can be as drastic as whole PLANETS. So even Luma has limitless moveset potential. The others barely have any to begin with.

One key thing about moveset potential is that it doesn't mean "what the characters have done in the past". People often make the mistake of thinking like that. In reality, not even Rosalina has done enough specific things within the games she has showed up in to fill out an entire moveset (and it doesn't help that some of the things she did seem too large scale to be regular moves in Smash), let alone the other Mario characters who are commonly brought up.

However, Captain Falcon had done absolutely nothing to fill in a moveset for Smash Bros, yet he still made it into the very first Smash game.

That's why, in regards to movesets, the thought process people should use is "how does this character's defined characteristics accommodate a moveset".

In Captain Falcon's case, they took:

-The fact that he is a bounty hunter (meaning he CAN fend for himself well enough to be able to fight crime in a universe with many different species)
-The fact that he is very well toned (meaning the nature of his combat potential must be direct, meaning each encounter hones his body)
-The fact that he is a racer (meaning he's a more natural fit for fast paced stuff, like fast paced combat)
-The fact that his design is very over the top, like an American comic book super hero

...and they used factors like that to create the hot blooded, "FALCON PAWNCH"-ing fighter we have in Smash Bros.

In Rosalina's case, they clearly took:

-The fact that she is a space goddess (meaning she could pretty much do anything they want her to do)
-The fact that she has a graceful, elegant, and reserved demeanour (meaning her animation style should reflect that)
-The fact that she has a strong, maternal bond with the Lumas (meaning that they could incorporate Luma into her moveset and it would make total sense)
-The fact that she is very tall, mainly due to her long legs (meaning she would probably kick a lot in a fight)
-The fact that she is from Super Mario Galaxy, and grants Mario some of his power (meaning they could take Super Mario Galaxy mechanics and incorporate them into Rosalina's moveset)

...and they used factors like that to create the Luma controlling, "creates galaxies with elegant kicks" fighter we got in Smash Bros.

When you look at other Mario characters in this way, Rosalina will still have more going for her. Especially in Toad's case - one of Toad's defining characteristics is that they are docile/weak/cowardly, and don't fight - which outright contradicts a playable fighter role in Smash Bros. Another defining trait they have is that they (poorly) serve and protect Peach, so incorporating them as a part of Peach's moveset rather than trying to awkwardly make them playable, while contradicting one of their most defining traits, just fits way better.

When I try to look at Daisy this way...nothing really comes to mind...because she's hardly defined. She's an energetic princess. We only ever see her being rescued, and playing sports. These are purely actions though, and don't do anything to set her apart from other characters (including the fact that pretty much every good guy character besides Rosalina has needed rescuing at some point, including Mario and Luigi...and even Wario, in Super Mario 64 DS).

Bowser. Jr is a runner-up - I think he's less justified and has less potential than Rosalina, but I'd support him for Smash 5, or as DLC. There is just enough to work with, and while he has been portrayed with little care, that doesn't mean the character is bad, it just means the writers handled him poorly (and I believe he was completely shoe-horned into Galaxy as pure Sunshine fan service and nothing more).

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

@ HugoBoss

I kind of gave up arguing with SonicBrawler because he doesn't make any sense half the time.
And is clearly being lead by extreme bias more so than anything else...

 

[ChikoLad]

@ HugoBoss

I kind of gave up arguing with SonicBrawler because he doesn't make any sense half the time.
And is clearly being lead by extreme bias more so than anything else...

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

That's kinda funny - but I'm not salty. When you say I don't have facts but you ignore a large part of my facts - I reached a realization. You're onesided- ignoring things for other characters while overstating things for Rosalina.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Sometimes you're just better off dropping the subject, instead of beating up a dead horse every time. You can't reason with everyone after all.

 

[Super Writer]

Being salty is when someone has a hissy fit over something they think is unfair, like being a sore loser after losing a game or complaining too much that something didn't cater only to them. I think PizzaWenisaur was more saying this argument was not worth it, as if the other person involved is very adamant about their opinion, nothing will be accomplished, which is kind of how a lot of these are going.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Being salty is when someone has a hissy fit over something they think is unfair, like being a sore loser after losing a game or complaining too much that something didn't cater only to them. I think PizzaWenisaur was more saying this argument was not worth it, as if the other person involved is very adamant about their opinion, nothing will be accomplished, which is kind of how a lot of these are going.

Hence why I'm saying that the subject should just be dropped. If this argument keeps going, this thread will be at risk of getting a time out.

 

[ChikoLad]

Being salty is when someone has a hissy fit over something they think is unfair, like being a sore loser after losing a game or complaining too much that something didn't cater only to them. I think PizzaWenisaur was more saying this argument was not worth it, as if the other person involved is very adamant about their opinion, nothing will be accomplished, which is kind of how a lot of these are going.

And that's why I posted my image - because instead of actually trying to tell me how I'm making no sense, he just blames it on me not be able to be reasoned with.

I can be reasoned with just fine, but make sure what you're saying is actually reasonable if you want to reason with me (this is a general statement).

I've had a small history with Pizza, so him turning to the bias/unreasonable card is nothing new to me. This happens every time.

I'm not going to discuss this further, as I've said way more than I ever really felt like saying.

 

[Super Writer]

We both agreed that Rosalina should be playable yet we kind of went back and forth ourselves. Defend your opinions please, but you seem a little over protective of them.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not overprotective of them, but you being unable to convince someone of your own opinion does not always mean they are stubborn or overprotective. It could just mean that you're argument is inherently unconvincing. Which doesn't even necessarily mean your point is bad, it could just mean you worded it poorly.

And we didn't go back and forth much, I only really disagreed on the topic of Rosalina being "milked", which just comes across as a hasty assumption to me, after looking at the facts.

 

[Super Writer]

I'm not overprotective of them, but you being unable to convince someone of your own opinion does not always mean they are stubborn or overprotective. It could just mean that you're argument is inherently unconvincing. Which doesn't even necessarily mean your point is bad, it could just mean you worded it poorly.

And we didn't go back and forth much, I only really disagreed on the topic of Rosalina being "milked", which just comes across as a hasty assumption to me, after looking at the facts.

That's what I'm saying, arguing with someone who is unwilling to budge, for whatever reason, is pointless. I'm starting to think that deep down everyone is kind of agreeing but we're just arguing for the sake of arguing, stuck in some strange paradox of human illogicality.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well then I haven't really anything else to say. My first post in this topic is essentially the super summarised version of everything I said thereafter.

I honestly feel this topic was quite unnecessary to begin with. As someone said early on, it's just giving an excuse for people to crap on Rosalina being in the game, since pretty much any supporter of the character didn't see her as necessary to make the game good. Considering the quiet and closet nature of a lot of Rosalina fans, I don't think any of them would have thought she was absolutely necessary to be put in the game.

I know the OP didn't have bad intentions in the slightest, but if people don't like Rosalina being in the game, there is the "Unpopular Smash 4 Opinions" thread for expressing that (that's assuming having a distaste for her is an unpopular thing - I honestly don't know at this point), since the OP's question is easily answered and kind of unclear to begin with.

 

[Dad's Home]

I think she's a relevant addition to Smash 4 based on her use in Mario games right now, but does anyone consider her an absolute shoe-in for Smash 5? Now obviously we don't know the future of Rosalina in games, but seriously comparing her to Luigi, Bowser or Peach? No one can EVER doubt their importance to the Mario series. We don't know if Rosalina will be relegated to party and sports games in the future, but we do know it is possible.

In short, necessary for Smash 4? Not NECESSARY, but very welcome and appropriate. Necessary for Smash 5? Not yet, we'll see. I don't think she's established enough to justify her own series YET but it's possible.

 

[C3CC]

Aw come on, Rosalina is far from being Ice Climbers Lite. And of course she deserved to be in. It was either her or Paper Mario. Toad, Waluigi, Daisy or Bowser Jr would have sucked.

 

[Berserker.]

Are they necessary?

That depends on how you view it and what necessary is to you.

The end.

 

[DaDavid]

Is anybody?

 

[micstar615]

She's probably my favourite Mario character

 

[Ghirahilda]

Rosalina was my number 1 Mario series newcomer... she was necessary, her popularity is immense since Super Mario Galaxy... but I'm not entering this territory, I think everything was already said for her.

 

[Deathcarter]

I see her inclusion as similar to Robin's inclusion: important yet overlooked characters who both bring new elements from their series that are very different in terms of both moveset potential and character from what we already seen from their franchises while more conventional and expected candidates were mostly redundant. Yeah both their series were represented fine before and weren't in critical need of an extra rep but frankly that hardly matters now; having now seen what they bring, I'd wouldn't want to imagine what Smash 4 would be like without either.

 

[TechPowah]

Personally, it shouldn't matter whether a character is necessary or not, it just matters whether you want/don't want that character, and if they do get in, if you end up playing/not playing them. Doesn't need to be "hey, did we really need this character?", just "OK, I [wanted/didn't want] this character and they got in and i'm [emotion] now." Now, even though i'm less wanting particular characters and for characters in general beyond my personal roster wants and hopes <a "fan of the sport instead of the teams", if you will>, I figured I give my two cents anyway.

When I think of the "necessity" of a given character's inclusion, I rubric said character through the question "Is it absolutely imperative that [character] is who we should get after the one(s) we already have in the current roster?" In this case, the character in question is Rosalina as a Mario character. IMO there actually isn't any Mario character we "needed" for this game, even between Rosalina and Bowser Jr. and Toad or even Dr. Mario circa Melee. By that, I don't mean anything about "I don't want/don't think we should get a new Mario character" or that this is a put down of any character, all I AM saying is that, since we already have the four AAA characters (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser), anyone else (IE: Rosalina) is garnish on what was already the main course (M/L/P/B).

 

[SvartWolf]

People question if it's necesary to have the only interesting mario character left? (withouth counting mario rpgs and paper spinoffs)
Yeah,, she is important in only one game, doesn't matter if is the most critically acclaimed and generally succesfull mario game since the 64 era.

People who claim that one shot characters are bad reps dismiss the importance of how memorable that one game was. Certainly sheik have appeared in way less games that say Tingle (who even have his own game)
But Sheik appeared in Ocarina of Time with a decent enough role, the most remebered and played Zelda game (for good or for bad) she is probably way more remembered than tingle (and Tingle isn't exactly a nobody).

It's just one regular mario character more only, and she is way more important than daisy, bowser jr, waluigi or toad. (the eternal background guy) maybe Toad relevance will go up with captain toad. but i still feel vanilla toad is way too bland. Waluigi importance also may be higher mostly due to meme material. but I still think than meme material isn't best than memorable game.

 

[D-idara]

Rosalina represents Super Mario Galaxy...that's enough for me!

 

[woopyfrood]

What you're really asking is "was another Mario rep necessary?" Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser sum up the franchise pretty tightly, and judging by Dr. Mario a fifth slot seems to be the dropoff point at which characters become ancillary. So no, strictly speaking Rosalina was not necessary. However, disregard the cries of Toad fans and others: Rosalina deserved the spot more than any other. She's the most interesting new Mario character Nintendo has made in years, and I'd take her over Peach in any game.

I'd say the Lumas were not a requirement for Rosalina's inclusion. They are relevant to her due to story reasons, but they're certainly not as integral a part of her presence as the Pikmin are to Olimar. It is no matter, though, because Luma gave the perfect opportunity for a fighting mechanic that Smash Bros has not previously dabbled in.

 

[Tino]

What do you mean by necessary? Sakurai decided to put Rosalina in Smash Bros. not because of the fanbase she has but because he saw more potential in her that other characters like Daisy, Waluigi or even Bowser Jr. doesn't.