Were Rosalina and Luma necessary?

[Super Writer]

I'm not trying to antagonize you, but I do think I should throw in my two cents.

Well the Smash 4 roster was finalised a couple of years back, according to Sakurai, so I really think Rosalina's appearance in 3D World and Mario Golf, and her being the poster girl for MK8 had nothing to do with her Smash inclusion. I think it all had to do with her announcement timing, but not her inclusion. Sakurai has always said that he makes his addition based on what new abilities the character could bring to the table, and how they can add to the game's atmosphere.

Here's what I'm saying, predating that, Rosalina was an unlockable character in Mario Kart Wii, and requires an excessive amount of play to obtain her, in fact she's the most difficult character to get, or you can take a shortcut and have Mario Galaxy saved on your Wii to get her now. The unlocking technique was a method to make players play longer or buy another game. Now I ask would that be nearly as effective when applied to another character?

Roster choices and especially cross overs are giant marketing ploys, just look at UMvC3, almost every single Marvel character in the roster was about to get a movie or relevancy in a cartoon. It's all about how many they can attract, how much money they can make off of the character, and how much they can make outside of the movie.

I hate to say it, but Rosalina has kind of become Nintendo's equivalent of Marvel's Deadpool by a marketing standpoint, placing her in as many titles, especially when she isn't needed in order to milk a little more cash out of the property. It's just a little less obvious. Like I said early, her fans (myself included) love it, and everyone else is going to groan, and unfortunate side effect of this.

And sorry, but I don't think Rosalina fans would be getting upset and picking fights if she wasn't included in the game. Pretty much anyone who wanted Rosalina saw her as a "closet want", as in, they didn't really talk about how much they wanted the character, because they weren't confident about how many people wanted Rosalina or even liked her. I've wanted her since the Brawl days, yet I never told anyone until she was revealed for Smash 4. Rosalina fans were just very reclusive and reserved for the past few years, and only really started "coming out" after her appearance in 3D World (since her announcement was actually a selling point of the game for many, myself included). As for why they had that attitude, I can only guess it's because of outspoken Daisy, Waluigi, Bowser. Jr, and Toad fans, who are are very obnoxious and loud about how they want the characters in the game. Really the only outspoken Rosalina fans, for the most part, were those on sites like Rule 34, and, well, that was for a totally specific reason.....

It's easy to say that now, but imagine if in one or two years Rosalina suddenly got the shaft and Nintendo started pushing Daisy. Daisy becomes the surprise reveal of upcoming games, the marketable paid DLC character, inclusion in the Smash Bros. roster. All the sudden Rosalina is reduced to roster filler in Mario Sports games. Now all of her fans are going to be disappointed by this, and naturally blame would shift towards Daisy.

Rosalina Fans: Who cares about Daisy? She had one game and is just a Peach clone!
Daisy Fans: But she's unique, she is great at sports and being from a desert gives her natural blah blah blah...
Basically what a lot of this thread is turned around.

Like I mentioned earlier, a character in a similar situation is Deadpool, except I don't care for Deadpool, so whenever I see him shoehorned into every single comic just to be oh so "funny" and awesome, it drives me up the wall, especially when it is at the expense of other characters that I feel are better.

Trust me, you and I are not on the high ground, we're just rooting for the winning team. Fanboys are fanboys, that's why internet fights tend to never end, two or more people get stuck up on the notion that they aren't jerks, and that everyone else is. I once saw like a three way argument between bronies, whovians and Avatar fans, and it was like watching three kids shouting "nu-uh" and "uh-huh" at each other. It blows my mind how few people notice this paradox.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Well the Smash 4 roster was finalised a couple of years back, according to Sakurai, so I really think Rosalina's appearance in 3D World and Mario Golf, and her being the poster girl for MK8 had nothing to do with her Smash inclusion. I think it all had to do with her announcement timing, but not her inclusion. Sakurai has always said that he makes his addition based on what new abilities the character could bring to the table, and how they can add to the game's atmosphere. And Rosalina checks both of those boxes (she's a space goddess, so she can do all sorts of things, and she is a character with a very well fleshed out personality and backstory, which was particularly poignant, so she was a nice poignant figure to add to the game - plus, her motherly nature goes well with a lot of the younger characters on the roster).

And sorry, but I don't think Rosalina fans would be getting upset and picking fights if she wasn't included in the game. Pretty much anyone who wanted Rosalina saw her as a "closet want", as in, they didn't really talk about how much they wanted the character, because they weren't confident about how many people wanted Rosalina or even liked her. I've wanted her since the Brawl days, yet I never told anyone until she was revealed for Smash 4. Rosalina fans were just very reclusive and reserved for the past few years, and only really started "coming out" after her appearance in 3D World (since her announcement was actually a selling point of the game for many, myself included). As for why they had that attitude, I can only guess it's because of outspoken Daisy, Waluigi, Bowser. Jr, and Toad fans, who are are very obnoxious and loud about how they want the characters in the game. Really the only outspoken Rosalina fans, for the most part, were those on sites like Rule 34, and, well, that was for a totally specific reason.....

I honestly think Rosalina's fanbase is the healthiest out of all of the characters in the Mario franchise, along with Luigi and Bowser - they aren't overly demanding, but they are very good at selling the character. Then you look at Toad, Waluigi, and Daisy fans and they pretty much just say "THEY'RE OLD AND HAVE BEEN IN LOADS OF PARTY GAMES, BEST CHARACTER EVAR, SMASH IS 0/10 WITHOUT THEM", for the most part.

I don't know man. When you ( and others ) say Rosalina is necessary that's a bit different from a good inclusion.
Necessary is a really strong word to attach to her, I feel like.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not trying to antagonize you, but I do think I should throw in my two cents.

Here's what I'm saying, predating that, Rosalina was an unlockable character in Mario Kart Wii, and requires an excessive amount of play to obtain her, in fact she's the most difficult character to get, or you can take a shortcut and have Mario Galaxy saved on your Wii to get her now. The unlocking technique was a method to make players play longer or buy another game. Now I ask would that be nearly as effective when applied to another character?

Roster choices and especially cross overs are giant marketing ploys, just look at UMvC3, almost every single Marvel character in the roster was about to get a movie or relevancy in a cartoon. It's all about how many they can attract, how much money they can make off of the character, and how much they can make outside of the movie.

I hate to say it, but Rosalina has kind of become Nintendo's equivalent of Marvel's Deadpool by a marketing standpoint, placing her in as many titles, especially when she isn't needed in order to milk a little more cash out of the property. It's just a little less obvious. Like I said early, her fans (myself included) love it, and everyone else is going to groan, and unfortunate side effect of this.

Rosalina is FAR from becoming a "milked" character. Mario is a franchise of a couple-a-hundred games. Rosalina has appeared in 11, in 7 years. And is playable in 7 of those games (and 4 of those are Mario Kart, which I honestly don't count, except in MK8's case. While she got a particular push in MK8, her inclusion in other MK games is pretty much standard procedure at this point and they went with little fanfare, and since all sorts of characters get into Mario Kart anyway). I really need say no more on that. :V

It's easy to say that now, but imagine if in one or two years Rosalina suddenly got the shaft and Nintendo started pushing Daisy. Daisy becomes the surprise reveal of upcoming games, the marketable paid DLC character, inclusion in the Smash Bros. roster. All the sudden Rosalina is reduced to roster filler in Mario Sports games. Now all of her fans are going to be disappointed by this, and naturally blame would shift towards Daisy.

Rosalina Fans: Who cares about Daisy? She had one game and is just a Peach clone!
Daisy Fans: But she's unique, she is great at sports and being from a desert gives her natural blah blah blah...
Basically what a lot of this thread is turned around.

Like I mentioned earlier, a character in a similar situation is Deadpool, except I don't care for Deadpool, so whenever I see him shoehorned into every single comic just to be oh so "funny" and awesome, it drives me up the wall, especially when it is at the expense of other characters that I feel are better.

Trust me, you and I are not on the high ground, we're just rooting for the winning team. Fanboys are fanboys, that's why internet fights tend to never end, two or more people get stuck up on the notion that they aren't jerks, and that everyone else is. I once saw like a three way argument between bronies, whovians and Avatar fans, and it was like watching three kids shouting "nu-uh" and "uh-huh" at each other. It blows my mind how few people notice this paradox.

I'd have absolutely no problem with Daisy getting Rosalina's treatment. If anything, Luigi, Wario, Bowser, and Rosalina (and Peach, to a lesser extent) are role models for what all Mario characters should be treated like - characters who are not merely one dimensional, hard to relate to, player avatars. They are characters that have nuances, layered personalities, they are easy to relate to since they are flawed people. And they are pretty charming.

If Daisy was pushed in my face too much without having anything interesting done with her, I might get annoyed. But if a character who has had some actually interesting things done with them gets a little spotlight, I don't mind. The Year of Luigi was awesome in that sense.

As for the war between Daisy fans and Rosalina fans or whatever, I don't see why you bring that up, I think character wars like that are stupid, and unavoidable. Most of the people doing that are younger anyway. People are just bitter, and will look for anyone to blame for misfortune, even a freaking fictional character. That's really none of my concern. I love Rosalina, and don't care much about Daisy - but that's only because I think Nintendo has yet to give people a more than shallow reason to like Daisy.

I don't know man. When you ( and others ) say Rosalina is necessary that's a bit different from a good inclusion.
Necessary is a really strong word to attach to her, I feel like.

Part of my very first post in this thread:

I hate this notion of some characters being "necessary". Something that is necessary is saying that it's required to make a game good. Most would probably be contempt with Smash Bros having just the main characters and villains of each represented franchise playable, and the series just expanding on represented franchises each installment, and throwing in iconic sidekicks like Luigi if they really need to. The roster would still be huge.

Smash Bros is a great game regardless of it's roster. That being said, is Rosalina necessary for me PERSONALLY? God yes. She restored my hype for the game when it was waning (due to certain pieces of information like a lack of a story mode), and she's my favourite Nintendo character (and one of my most favourite fictional characters in general) from one of my favourite games.

I said Rosalina was necessary for me PERSONALLY, in terms of, necessary to make the roster unbelievably hype for ME (as in, an addition like say, Pac-Man, does nothing for me personally, since I am not attached to him, but Rosalina is a character I am personally attached to). I outright said that in a general sense, she was NOT necessary to make this game good, or even the roster as such. She was just a big deal for me on a personal level, so she was necessary to fulfill my wishlist of characters I'd love to see in Smash. She was my most anticipated character. But she wasn't necessary to make the game good. I never once implied that.

The rest of my first post really just explains a little of why I like her to begin with and why I wanted her over more standard and obvious choices like Toad and Bowser. Jr.

Please read the entire thread before you fling accusations, and when you see the word necessary, understand the context of how people are using them.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Rosalina is FAR from becoming a "milked" character. Mario is a franchise of a couple-a-hundred games. Rosalina has appeared in 11, in 7 years. And is playable in 7 of those games (and 4 of those are Mario Kart, which I honestly don't count, except in MK8's case. While she got a particular push in MK8, her inclusion in other MK games is pretty much standard procedure at this point and they went with little fanfare, and since all sorts of characters get into Mario Kart anyway). I really need say no more on that. :V



I'd have absolutely no problem with Daisy getting Rosalina's treatment. If anything, Luigi, Wario, Bowser, and Rosalina (and Peach, to a lesser extent) are role models for what all Mario characters should be treated like - characters who are not merely one dimensional, hard to relate to, player avatars. They are characters that have nuances, layered personalities, they are easy to relate to since they are flawed people. And they are pretty charming.

If Daisy was pushed in my face too much without having anything interesting done with her, I might get annoyed. But if a character who has had some actually interesting things done with them gets a little spotlight, I don't mind. The Year of Luigi was awesome in that sense.

As for the war between Daisy fans and Rosalina fans or whatever, I don't see why you bring that up, I think character wars like that are stupid, and unavoidable. Most of the people doing that are younger anyway. People are just bitter, and will look for anyone to blame for misfortune, even a freaking fictional character. That's really none of my concern. I love Rosalina, and don't care much about Daisy - but that's only because I think Nintendo has yet to give people a more than shallow reason to like Daisy.

Part of my very first post in this thread:



I said Rosalina was necessary for me PERSONALLY, in terms of, necessary to make the roster unbelievably hype for ME (as in, an addition like say, Pac-Man, does nothing for me personally, since I am not attached to him, but Rosalina is a character I am personally attached to). I outright said that in a general sense, she was NOT necessary to make this game good, or even the roster as such. She was just a big deal for me on a personal level, so she was necessary to fulfill my wishlist of characters I'd love to see in Smash. She was my most anticipated character. But she wasn't necessary to make the game good. I never once implied that.

The rest of my first post really just explains a little of why I like her to begin with and why I wanted her over more standard and obvious choices like Toad and Bowser. Jr.

Please read the entire thread before you fling accusations, and when you see the word necessary, understand the context of how people are using them.

Read through the whole thread. I read that - then I started reading your other posts.

Things like she isn't a flavor of the month character like Bowser Junior, Daisy, or Toad.
Things like she isn't dictate by Miyamoto like other characters.
Things like she is the only wholly unique character.
Things like she deserves her own franchise.

So I read one thing - but get a different tone from you. Maybe I'm just bad at reading tones.
But it's kinda wierd to say this character is just necessary for me personally - but then to say the statements above.

 

[Super Writer]

Rosalina is FAR from becoming a "milked" character. Mario is a franchise of a couple-a-hundred games. Rosalina has appeared in 11, in 7 years. And is playable in 7 of those games (and 4 of those are Mario Kart, which I honestly don't count, except in MK8's case. While she got a particular push in MK8, her inclusion in other MK games is pretty much standard procedure at this point and they went with little fanfare, and since all sorts of characters get into Mario Kart anyway). I really need say no more on that. :V



I'd have absolutely no problem with Daisy getting Rosalina's treatment. If anything, Luigi, Wario, Bowser, and Rosalina (and Peach, to a lesser extent) are role models for what all Mario characters should be treated like - characters who are not merely one dimensional, hard to relate to, player avatars. They are characters that have nuances, layered personalities, they are easy to relate to since they are flawed people. And they are pretty charming.

If Daisy was pushed in my face too much without having anything interesting done with her, I might get annoyed. But if a character who has had some actually interesting things done with them gets a little spotlight, I don't mind. The Year of Luigi was awesome in that sense.

As for the war between Daisy fans and Rosalina fans or whatever, I don't see why you bring that up, I think character wars like that are stupid, and unavoidable. Most of the people doing that are younger anyway. People are just bitter, and will look for anyone to blame for misfortune, even a freaking fictional character. That's really none of my concern. I love Rosalina, and don't care much about Daisy - but that's only because I think Nintendo has yet to give people a more than shallow reason to like Daisy.

Part of my very first post in this thread:



I said Rosalina was necessary for me PERSONALLY, in terms of, necessary to make the roster unbelievably hype for ME (as in, an addition like say, Pac-Man, does nothing for me personally, since I am not attached to him, but Rosalina is a character I am personally attached to). I outright said that in a general sense, she was NOT necessary to make this game good, or even the roster as such. She was just a big deal for me on a personal level, so she was necessary to fulfill my wishlist of characters I'd love to see in Smash. She was my most anticipated character. But she wasn't necessary to make the game good. I never once implied that.

The rest of my first post really just explains a little of why I like her to begin with and why I wanted her over more standard and obvious choices like Toad and Bowser. Jr.

Please read the entire thread before you fling accusations, and when you see the word necessary, understand the context of how people are using them.

Look I really don't want to argue, so this will be my last post on this thread related to this. I do want you to know my previous posts haven't been directed at you, but rather trends I have noticed. In other words I was more interested in what led to her space in the roster, and what would have happened if other characters did make it in. You can have your own opinions and theories, and that's all right, because I feel if I keep pushing my own this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.

I'll just end it with my overall opinion on Rosalina being "necessary". She isn't, but we already got all but two "necessary" characters, and with a giant list of possible Mario characters to go with, they chose one of the best candidates. She isn't necessary, but in my opinion she is one of the best additions to the roster.

I look forward to using this character.

 

[ChikoLad]

Read through the whole thread. I read that - then I started reading your other posts.

Things like she isn't a flavor of the month character like Bowser Junior, Daisy, or Toad.
Things like she isn't dictate by Miyamoto like other characters.
Things like she is the only wholly unique character.
Things like she deserves her own franchise.

So I read one thing - but get a different tone from you. Maybe I'm just bad at reading tones.
But it's kinda wierd to say this character is just necessary for me personally - but then to say the statements above.

I feel Rosalina (& her Lumas) is beyond flavour of the month because she single handedly brought a tragic masterpiece of a story to the main Mario franchise, and it's evident how many people think her story is special, and I have seen many people say it was deeply special and how it gave them perspective on certain themes.

Compare this to Bowser. Jr, who literally had one interesting role (that was sort of bothced to begin with, since Sunshine has always been one of those "so bad it's good" games as far as it's story goes), and then got shafted to non-distinct roles after (as in, any character could have taken his place and it would have made no difference to anything). Also, his interesting shtick story-wise depended on Bowser, and was kinda brushed off (who's his real mother?).

Compare this to Daisy, who was literally created because Gunpei Yokoi couldn't use Peach (not just Peach either - nearly everything in Super Mario Land was a re-skinned or different version of something from Super Mario Bros). And was only kept because Peach needed a partner in Mario Tennis, and possibly to honour Yokoi's death (Mario was already with Luigi).

Compare this to Toad, who is the Mario equivalent to Flickies from Sonic (they even share crowd space in the M&S Olympic Games). However, I do not think Toad is flavour of the month, Toads are a race. Captain Toad is a cool character though, another great thing to come from Galaxy. He's not Smash roster potential though - the guy can't even jump (I'd love him as an Assist Trophy, though).

With Rosalina, I can feel the love and care her creators put into defining her. Same as I can with Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, and Peach (to a lesser extent). I can't with BJ, Daisy, or Toad, though. Like, I don't even have to like a character to be able to know when their creators cared about them.

As for wanting her to get her own franchise - why not? She's a goddess figure. She's lived for centuries. Surely she must have went on many adventures in that time, and Super Mario 3D World and Smash prove that she could do things as a player character. And if Nintendo want to keep making other, non-Galaxy related games with Mario, they could always let Rosalina carry the Galaxy torch if they wanted to revisit the formula. It could mean Rosalina won't be intruding in the Mario games of people who hate her. It's a win-win: her fans get more of her, her detractors don't have to buy Mario platformers with her in them, and simply ignore her series. While she'd probably still show up in Mario Kart like Wario does, people can easily just not play as her there, if they don't like her.

Look I really don't want to argue, so this will be my last post on this thread related to this. I do want you to know my previous posts haven't been directed at you, but rather trends I have noticed. In other words I was more interested in what led to her space in the roster, and what would have happened if other characters did make it in. You can have your own opinions and theories, and that's all right, because I feel if I keep pushing my own this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.

I'll just end it with my overall opinion on Rosalina being "necessary". She isn't, but we already got all but two "necessary" characters, and with a giant list of possible Mario characters to go with, they chose one of the best candidates. She isn't necessary, but in my opinion she is one of the best additions to the roster.

I look forward to using this character.

I just thought that comment about Rosalina being milked was extremely flawed, because she just recently passed the 10 game mark in 7 years of being a thing, in a franchise that has a couple-a-hundred games, and releases AT LEAST 2 or 3 games yearly.
Not to mention that "milked" isn't defined as something that is used a lot, more like, something that's used to a point of overstaying it's welcome, which only happens when there is consistently no interesting things being done with her, to the point it develops nothing for her. Not true of any of her additions since (and including) Galaxy though. Super Mario 3D World showed us how she can play platformer, Mario Kart showed us she can race, Smash shows her skills for fighting, etc. All of these things can spin-off into something great if Nintendo wants it to, and there are many unanswered questions about the character. Not only that, but people love her, so she's justified in staying. It's the same reason Mario is still around. And people generally love him for much less personal reasons.

Other than that part, I do agree with you.

 

[Curious Villager]

If Rosalina is "necessary"?

Eh, well I guess she is about as "necessary" as Sheik is. Which is to say: If you feel that a game(s) in a series that is often considered "One of the greatest games of all time" deserves it's own specific character then I guess....

That said, I'm not really into this whole "necessary" and "deserving" shtick. Feels very subjective but ah well. Just my opinion I guess.... :T

I do like Rosalina as a character though and I'm personally very happy to have her as a playable character in the games.

 

[Ragna22]

I think she's awesome and I was never that interested in her as a character because she's basically a puppet master type character in Smash Bros and I especially grew interested in her move set after I discovered the Blazblue series in Febuary because it was then that I realized Rosalina is gonna be like Carl Cloverand I even went and tried to get good with Carl a few weeks ago so that I can get used to playing that kind of character because I want to get good with Rosalina, I really do and after the week I spent with Carl, I feel real good about Rosalina now.

Granted Luma might be a little bit more complicated to control than Nirvana because if I remember correctly, when Luma is separated from Rosalina he's AI controlled and I don't know how good his AI is but I am willing to take the time you get used to it and I'll be able to place opponents in seemingly helpless situations like I've been doing after getting good with Carl.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

I feel Rosalina (& her Lumas) is beyond flavour of the month because she single handedly brought a tragic masterpiece of a story to the main Mario franchise, and it's evident how many people think her story is special, and I have seen many people say it was deeply special and how it gave them perspective on certain themes.

Compare this to Bowser. Jr, who literally had one interesting role (that was sort of bothced to begin with, since Sunshine has always been one of those "so bad it's good" games as far as it's story goes), and then got shafted to non-distinct roles after (as in, any character could have taken his place and it would have made no difference to anything). Also, his interesting shtick story-wise depended on Bowser, and was kinda brushed off (who's his real mother?).

Compare this to Daisy, who was literally created because Gunpei Yokoi couldn't use Peach (not just Peach either - nearly everything in Super Mario Land was a re-skinned or different version of something from Super Mario Bros). And was only kept because Peach needed a partner in Mario Tennis, and possibly to honour Yokoi's death (Mario was already with Luigi).

Compare this to Toad, who is the Mario equivalent to Flickies from Sonic (they even share crowd space in the M&S Olympic Games). However, I do not think Toad is flavour of the month, Toads are a race. Captain Toad is a cool character though, another great thing to come from Galaxy. He's not Smash roster potential though - the guy can't even jump (I'd love him as an Assist Trophy, though).

With Rosalina, I can feel the love and care her creators put into defining her. Same as I can with Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, and Peach (to a lesser extent). I can't with BJ, Daisy, or Toad, though. Like, I don't even have to like a character to be able to know when their creators cared about them.

As for wanting her to get her own franchise - why not? She's a goddess figure. She's lived for centuries. Surely she must have went on many adventures in that time, and Super Mario 3D World and Smash prove that she could do things as a player character. And if Nintendo want to keep making other, non-Galaxy related games with Mario, they could always let Rosalina carry the Galaxy torch if they wanted to revisit the formula. It could mean Rosalina won't be intruding in the Mario games of people who hate her. It's a win-win: her fans get more of her, her detractors don't have to buy Mario platformers with her in them, and simply ignore her series. While she'd probably still show up in Mario Kart like Wario does, people can easily just not play as her there, if they don't like her.



I just thought that comment about Rosalina being milked was extremely flawed, because she just recently passed the 10 game mark in 7 years of being a thing, in a franchise that has a couple-a-hundred games, and releases AT LEAST 2 or 3 games yearly.
Not to mention that "milked" isn't defined as something that is used a lot, more like, something that's used to a point of overstaying it's welcome, which only happens when there is consistently no interesting things being done with her, to the point it develops nothing for her. Not true of any of her additions since (and including) Galaxy though. Super Mario 3D World showed us how she can play platformer, Mario Kart showed us she can race, Smash shows her skills for fighting, etc. All of these things can spin-off into something great if Nintendo wants it to, and there are many unanswered questions about the character. Not only that, but people love her, so she's justified in staying. It's the same reason Mario is still around. And people generally love him for much less personal reasons.

Other than that part, I do agree with you.

Well, the problem is both Daisy and Bowser Junior have been in the series not only for a while - but fairly consistently since thier introduction. So calling them a flavor of the month doesn't make any sense.

Secondly, whoever made the Toad/Yoshi comparison was right on the money. Toad is a race - but there is a specific Toad that is assigned to be Peach's protector. This is generally the one you play as and see in games. And Toad is more iconic for the franchise than Rosalina by a long shot. Toads have been in tons of games - have been in comics, tv shows, and has had the leading role twice.

All three of these characters have personalities also. Of course it's Mario so it's generally understated.

Not opposed to a Rosalina spin-off. But she hasn't done anything in particular to warrent a spin-off. And it's kinda unfair to equate being in Mario Kart and being in a platformer as character building. 'Cause everyone in thier senile old grandmother can drive a car in the Mario universe. Also, I'd imagine most of the important character in Mario can platform - especially considering Toad can.

I like Rosalina as a Smash character, I think she is a good addition. But I think saying she necessary is a stretch. Also feel like you are undermining the importance of other characters while overstating her's.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well, the problem is both Daisy and Bowser Junior have been in the series not only for a while - but fairly consistently since thier introduction. So calling them a flavor of the month doesn't make any sense.

Secondly, whoever made the Toad/Yoshi comparison was right on the money. Toad is a race - but there is a specific Toad that is assigned to be Peach's protector. This is generally the one you play as and see in games. And Toad is more iconic for the franchise than Rosalina by a long shot. Toads have been in tons of games - have been in comics, tv shows, and has had the leading role twice.

All three of these characters have personalities also. Of course it's Mario so it's generally understated.

Not opposed to a Rosalina spin-off. But she hasn't done anything in particular to warrent a spin-off. And it's kinda unfair to equate being in Mario Kart and being in a platformer as character building. 'Cause everyone in thier senile old grandmother can drive a car in the Mario universe. Also, I'd imagine most of the important character in Mario can platform - especially considering Toad can.

I like Rosalina as a Smash character, I think she is a good addition. But I think saying she necessary is a stretch. Also feel like you are undermining the importance of other characters while overstating her's.

Browser Jr and Daisy are flavour of the month because Bowser. Jr had one really noteable role in Sunshine, and then got reduced to being a generic lackey to Bowser. If someone didn't know his name, I wouldn't blame them for not making the father/son relation, since it's had no focus since Sunshine.

Daisy was simply a stand in for Peach once, and then became relegated to party games. Flavour of the month.

Seniority and consistency of appearances means nothing if nothing of value is done with those qualities.

And sorry , but there is no specific Toad that you play as in Mario Kart, that comes from the main series, same as Yoshi.
Super Mario Bros had a random BUNCH of Toads (in fact, all of the blocks in that game are Toads).
SMB2 has a random Toad you can play as for no other reason than they had no other character to stand in for the original DDP character he replaces, and he looked fairly similar to that character.
SMB3 had random Toads.
SM64 had random Toads.
Sunshine had Toadsworth and some random Toads.
Galaxy had some random Toads with capes with Peach, in the beginning of the game. And Captain Toad and his crew.
NSMB has two random Toads that you play as who don't match the colour of the MK Toad.
Super Mario 3D World had a random Blue Toad.

The only reason Toad was made to be more of a specific character in the cartoons is because they had nobody else to be a good guy besides the Mario Bros and Peach (and later Yoshis).

The argument that I just made in Toad's case is applicable to Yoshi - but Yoshis have their own series. And said series is pretty successful. And Yoshis have a consistent and specific moveset in their series. It's not a specific one though, since you change Yoshi's in every level. And Smash Bros even lets you play as different colour Yoshis to match how you play as different colour Yoshis in the Yoshi series.

Also, if Yoshi deserves an entire series, so does Rosalina. Any reasoning you could have in Yoshi's case, I can apply to Rosalina tenfold.

 

[Super Writer]

Instead of giving her a spin-off series I think they should make Super Mario Galaxy 3 and have her as a starting playable character. Furthermore allow co-op play, one player as Mario, the other as Rosalina, and give them different abilities that force team work in 2 player, and gives two ways of getting through a level in single player. But one can only dream...

 

[ChikoLad]

Instead of giving her a spin-off series I think they should make Super Mario Galaxy 3 and have her as a starting playable character. Furthermore allow co-op play, one player as Mario, the other as Rosalina, and give them different abilities that force team work in 2 player, and gives two ways of getting through a level in single player. But one can only dream...

I would rather they just let a Rosalina game be her own thing, since one of the key reasons I want to see a Rosalina game in the first place is that it would provide a way to let the character develop and have more stories, that could spin-off into a series, with it's own original characters that could have creative designs not grounded by the usual Mario universe enemies and NPCs. I wouldn't mind if they called the first game "Super Mario Galaxy 3: Rosalina's Story" or something though, like how Yoshi's first game was "Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island".

Provided they just go with a straight up "Super Mario Galaxy 3" one day, though, I think that should have proper two player co-op that uses the Wii U GamePad to allow the second player to explore completely independently of the first player. And I think Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina should at least be selectable characters with their own abilities, and maybe each one has access to a unique power-up.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I found an Iwata Asks interview of Super Mario 3D World, and it has information on Rosalina, including specific reasoning as to why she was chosen to be playable in that game:

Iwata
Well, with Japanese people making the game, I suppose it would be too much for the local audience if the team just made it true to its local color. What is the Mario Kart course like?

Motokura
First, we put in a dashboard, and when we were bringing it together toward the end, we discussed what motif to use, and...

Iwata
You were like, "Make it Mario Kart!"

Motokura
Yes. We borrowed it for the sake of resonance! (laughs)

Miyamoto
When you play it, you're like, "Is this Mario Kart?" Even the background music is the same.

Iwata
You even borrowed the background music? Well, you are in the same company, but... (laughs)

Hayashida
Yeah! (laughs) That kind of thing has been something you might expect after the ending, but this time we put it right out in front.

Iwata
Then there must be something else to look forward to after the ending, right?

Hayashida
Yes. After the ending this time, Rosalina16 becomes available as a playable character.16. Rosalina: A character who appears in the Super Mario Galaxy series.

Iwata
Oh! Rosalina?! Who insisted on that, I wonder?

Koizumi
Um, you probably think it was me! (laughs) But Motokura-san came to me and said he wanted to put her in.

Iwata
Motokura-san, why Rosalina?

Motokura
I was thinking about what would be pleasing after the ending and wanted to bring in another female character in addition to Princess Peach. Rosalina has a following among the Super Mario Galaxy fanbase, and she's appeared in Mario Kart recently, so I think she's well known.

Miyamoto
When Super Mario Galaxy first came out, I was a little hung up on why Rosalina was showing up when Princess Peach was already there. I thought it was fine as long as it was only Super Mario Galaxy, and we made her design so she's a little bigger. But all of a sudden she was a regular character in Mario Kart as just a regular girl, even her size turned to normal.

Iwata
As they say, time solves all things.

Miyamoto
If I think about it now, I'm like, "What was I so hung up on?!" I guess I was still green. (laughs)

Hayashida
This time, Rosalina has a special spin attack, so she can easily plough ahead if you just use her like normal.

Iwata
You recommend using her for exploration after clearing the game?

Hayashida
Yes. But she loses her spin attack when in cat form.

Iwata
Huh? She loses an ability when transformed?!

Hayashida
That's right. But she also becomes an interesting character when transformed into a cat. She becomes a black cat.

Iwata
Oh my...

Motokura
Koizumi-san put in that request, saying it had to be black.

Iwata
I knew it was Koizumi-san!

Everyone
(laughs)

Not sure what that cheeky thing at the end there was about...but, this does confirm the rumour that Miyamoto was outright against Rosalina even being in her debut game, which is because of his aversion to story-telling in gaming.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Browser Jr and Daisy are flavour of the month because Bowser. Jr had one really noteable role in Sunshine, and then got reduced to being a generic lackey to Bowser. If someone didn't know his name, I wouldn't blame them for not making the father/son relation, since it's had no focus since Sunshine.

Daisy was simply a stand in for Peach once, and then became relegated to party games. Flavour of the month.

Seniority and consistency of appearances means nothing if nothing of value is done with those qualities.

And sorry , but there is no specific Toad that you play as in Mario Kart, that comes from the main series, same as Yoshi.
Super Mario Bros had a random BUNCH of Toads (in fact, all of the blocks in that game are Toads).
SMB2 has a random Toad you can play as for no other reason than they had no other character to stand in for the original DDP character he replaces, and he looked fairly similar to that character.
SMB3 had random Toads.
SM64 had random Toads.
Sunshine had Toadsworth and some random Toads.
Galaxy had some random Toads with capes with Peach, in the beginning of the game. And Captain Toad and his crew.
NSMB has two random Toads that you play as who don't match the colour of the MK Toad.
Super Mario 3D World had a random Blue Toad.

The only reason Toad was made to be more of a specific character in the cartoons is because they had nobody else to be a good guy besides the Mario Bros and Peach (and later Yoshis).

The argument that I just made in Toad's case is applicable to Yoshi - but Yoshis have their own series. And said series is pretty successful. And Yoshis have a consistent and specific moveset in their series. It's not a specific one though, since you change Yoshi's in every level. And Smash Bros even lets you play as different colour Yoshis to match how you play as different colour Yoshis in the Yoshi series.

Also, if Yoshi deserves an entire series, so does Rosalina. Any reasoning you could have in Yoshi's case, I can apply to Rosalina tenfold.

Ok. Honestly I think you're too Rosalina bias. I'm beginning to think you just love her too much - and are becoming beyond reason. You said Rosalina DESERVES a spin-off. Why? Saying "Yoshi got one so she could get one..." is silly. I never said Yoshi derserved a spin-off. Not arguing if she could get one or if that idea is bad or not. Other characters could also get one. A Bowser Junior spin-off sounds amazing. You are giving qualities to Rosalina as if she is the only one who has them.

Read this - or just skim it... or whatever.

Toad's Description on Mario Wiki: Toad is a character who is Princess Peach's attendant and a long time protector of the Mushroom Kingdom. He is actually a singular character among an entire species of look-alikes (much like Yoshi is to the Yoshi species), leading to confusion over some of his appearances. He usually has the role of a supporting character who tries to help Mario and Luigi on their adventures, although he occasionally has been as a main protagonist, such as in Super Mario Bros. 2 and his starring role in Wario's Woods. He also appears regularly as a playable character in the Mario spin-offs. In more recent years, his role as Peach's steward has often been given to Toadsworth instead.

Obviously, wikis aren't always right. But I thought it was pretty obvious. Is it so hard to understand that a name can be both a race and a specific person? It's kind of clear, especially considering that whenever Toad or Yoshi is given some type of special role it's generally the same green colored Yoshi and red spotted Toad. Also it's obvious from the intro to Yoshi's Island that there is a specific Yoshi, named Yoshi.

"Meanwhile, here is Yoshi's Island, home to all Yoshies."
"It's a lovely day, and Yoshi is taking a walk."
"Yoshi heads leisurely back to the other Yoshies..."

From the grammer, you can tell that the Yoshi is a specific character and not just a placeholder for the whole race. If so, they would've said "... a Yoshi is taking a walk..." or "The Yoshi heads back to the other Yoshies..."

I'm a big idiot actually. Because I forgot Smash 4 has both Mii's and Animal Crossing Villagers too. So even if you don't believe me about there being a specific Yoshi or Toad it doesn't matter.

Rosalina had like two important roles and an appearence as a secret character. That's it. She has an interesting background and an unique personality. But that's it. You say these other character's aren't doing important things, but what is Rosaline doing. Hosting a Mario Party board, racing in Mario Kart, playing a few rounds of golf. The thing is Rosalina has a good background but hasn't been doing interesting things currently. These other characters ( 'cept maybe not so much Daisy ) don't have a very strong background - but have been doing more interesting things than her.

You keep on talking about her developement and backstory to explain why she is so awesome. And keep making these weird points to try to devalue other characters. Oh - daisy is only here because she is a Peach replacement. Oh - Toad was only in the cartoon as a character 'cause they needed someone else. It doesn't matter. The Mario franchise was only created because Nintendo couldn't make a King-Kong game. Sonic was made because Sega was fed up with Nintendo dominating the market. The whole Simpson's TV show was thought up in a lobby right before the creator was supposed to pitch an idea for an animated television show.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I think Rosalina and Luma well earned their spot, both by the love of the fans and the amount of surprising depth she was given.

Outside of the various Mario RPG's thats like.. UNHEARD of.

 

[Gravitational23]

I think Rosalina and Luma well earned their spot, both by the love of the fans and the amount of surprising depth she was given.

Outside of the various Mario RPG's thats like.. UNHEARD of.

Well said my friend Rosalina deserved to be in the roster that the end of it.

 

[ChikoLad]

Ok. Honestly I think you're too Rosalina bias. I'm beginning to think you just love her too much - and are becoming beyond reason. You said Rosalina DESERVES a spin-off. Why? Saying "Yoshi got one so she could get one..." is silly. I never said Yoshi derserved a spin-off. Not arguing if she could get one or if that idea is bad or not. Other characters could also get one. A Bowser Junior spin-off sounds amazing. You are giving qualities to Rosalina as if she is the only one who has them.

Read this - or just skim it... or whatever.

Toad's Description on Mario Wiki: Toad is a character who is Princess Peach's attendant and a long time protector of the Mushroom Kingdom. He is actually a singular character among an entire species of look-alikes (much like Yoshi is to the Yoshi species), leading to confusion over some of his appearances. He usually has the role of a supporting character who tries to help Mario and Luigi on their adventures, although he occasionally has been as a main protagonist, such as in Super Mario Bros. 2 and his starring role in Wario's Woods. He also appears regularly as a playable character in the Mario spin-offs. In more recent years, his role as Peach's steward has often been given to Toadsworth instead.

Obviously, wikis aren't always right. But I thought it was pretty obvious. Is it so hard to understand that a name can be both a race and a specific person? It's kind of clear, especially considering that whenever Toad or Yoshi is given some type of special role it's generally the same green colored Yoshi and red spotted Toad. Also it's obvious from the intro to Yoshi's Island that there is a specific Yoshi, named Yoshi.

"Meanwhile, here is Yoshi's Island, home to all Yoshies."
"It's a lovely day, and Yoshi is taking a walk."
"Yoshi heads leisurely back to the other Yoshies..."

From the grammer, you can tell that the Yoshi is a specific character and not just a placeholder for the whole race. If so, they would've said "... a Yoshi is taking a walk..." or "The Yoshi heads back to the other Yoshies..."

I'm a big idiot actually. Because I forgot Smash 4 has both Mii's and Animal Crossing Villagers too. So even if you don't believe me about there being a specific Yoshi or Toad it doesn't matter.

Rosalina had like two important roles and an appearence as a secret character. That's it. She has an interesting background and an unique personality. But that's it. You say these other character's aren't doing important things, but what is Rosaline doing. Hosting a Mario Party board, racing in Mario Kart, playing a few rounds of golf. The thing is Rosalina has a good background but hasn't been doing interesting things currently. These other characters ( 'cept maybe not so much Daisy ) don't have a very strong background - but have been doing more interesting things than her.

You keep on talking about her developement and backstory to explain why she is so awesome. And keep making these weird points to try to devalue other characters. Oh - daisy is only here because she is a Peach replacement. Oh - Toad was only in the cartoon as a character 'cause they needed someone else. It doesn't matter. The Mario franchise was only created because Nintendo couldn't make a King-Kong game. Sonic was made because Sega was fed up with Nintendo dominating the market. The whole Simpson's TV show was thought up in a lobby right before the creator was supposed to pitch an idea for an animated television show.

That Toad description you posted?

It's an opinion piece. It's speculation. Even it's language indicates as such. And if you yourself had to tell me you weren't very confident in it's legitimacy, why bother posting it? How do you expect me to accept it as a good point when you yourself don't have faith in the source (and you shouldn't, the Mario Wiki is terrible for including speculation and quoting it as fact)?

Also, I never denied BJ's potential. I explicitly said that Nintendo chose to squander it. Me asking for a Rosalina spin-off before a Bowser Jr. one is just preference, and I never stated it to be anything but. It goes without saying that I would want a spin-off of a character I like before a character I don't care about. And if you are going to chase down that point to prove that I'm biased, you are wasting your time. Because it's a blatantly subjective matter. I don't need objective points to justify wanting a spin-off of my favourite character (even though I can), and it actually has nothing to do with justifying her Smash Bros inclusion either. So I don't understand why you are so hung up on me wanting a Rosalina spin-off series. The character is at least 200 years old in canon, so objectively, she's got the experience and lifespan to make room for more stories and adventures than any other character in the main Mario franchise.

And again, I'm not de-valuing anything - I can only de-value that which has value. And honestly, the other characters you compare to Rosalina don't have much value to begin with. And are not comparable.

And I see what you are trying to do in that last paragraph, and trust me - people aren't so stupid and simple minded that they will fall for it. I'm not even going to give you the time of day any more.

If you are so hung up with people having a positive opinion on a compelling character who attracts non-Mario fans to the franchise, and are hung up on people personally wanting her in Smash (because FOR THE LAST TIME, I only ever said I saw her as "necessary" for my own PERSONAL roster hype - I never said she was necessary to make Smash 4 an enjoyable and engaging experience), then talk to someone else, because I know from experience that you will not stop until I say "you are absolutely right Pizza, and I was wrong". And frankly, I'm tired of listening to people with that attitude.

I have no problem with you having an opinion, but stop trying to shoot me down with flimsy "facts".

 

[☆Jazz☆]

Yes, yes they were.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

That Toad description you posted?

It's an opinion piece. It's speculation. Even it's language indicates as such. And if you yourself had to tell me you weren't very confident in it's legitimacy, why bother posting it? How do you expect me to accept it as a good point when you yourself don't have faith in the source (and you shouldn't, the Mario Wiki is terrible for including speculation and quoting it as fact)?

Also, I never denied BJ's potential. I explicitly said that Nintendo chose to squander it. Me asking for a Rosalina spin-off before a Bowser Jr. one is just preference, and I never stated it to be anything but. It goes without saying that I would want a spin-off of a character I like before a character I don't care about. And if you are going to chase down that point to prove that I'm biased, you are wasting your time. Because it's a blatantly subjective matter. I don't need objective points to justify wanting a spin-off of my favourite character (even though I can), and it actually has nothing to do with justifying her Smash Bros inclusion either. So I don't understand why you are so hung up on me wanting a Rosalina spin-off series. The character is at least 200 years old in canon, so objectively, she's got the experience and lifespan to make room for more stories and adventures than any other character in the main Mario franchise.

And again, I'm not de-valuing anything - I can only de-value that which has value. And honestly, the other characters you compare to Rosalina don't have much value to begin with. And are not comparable.

And I see what you are trying to do in that last paragraph, and trust me - people aren't so stupid and simple minded that they will fall for it. I'm not even going to give you the time of day any more.

If you are so hung up with people having a positive opinion on a compelling character who attracts non-Mario fans to the franchise, and are hung up on people personally wanting her in Smash (because FOR THE LAST TIME, I only ever said I saw her as "necessary" for my own PERSONAL roster hype - I never said she was necessary to make Smash 4 an enjoyable and engaging experience), then talk to someone else, because I know from experience that you will not stop until I say "you are absolutely right Pizza, and I was wrong". And frankly, I'm tired of listening to people with that attitude.

I have no problem with you having an opinion, but stop trying to shoot me down with flimsy "facts".

Well, it's not that I don't have faith in the wiki. I was just highlighting ( or trying to ) that even though wikis are sometimes wrong, wikis usually get the generally gist of things right. Also I could give you the Smash Bros trophy definition of Yoshi and Toad but appearently you'll ignore that factoid. Like you ignored the intro to Yoshi's Island for some reason...

And what I am I trying to do in that last paragraph. Logic? I'm not trying to use crazy Jedi Mind tricks.

I'm done. When I said you were beyond reason I was more right than I thought. You and all the other fans can love Rosalina. I honestly don't care that much. But when you/others get on this high horse and say "Rosalina is necessary; she deserved to be in Smash 4, she was the only 5th possible Mario representative," I get a tad annoyed. You can't try to fall back on the "this is only my opinion" tactic when you say 1) Other characters don't have value and therefore you can't devalue them and 2) the reasons for liking other characters are shallow.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well, it's not that I don't have faith in the wiki. I was just highlighting ( or trying to ) that even though wikis are sometimes wrong, wikis usually get the generally gist of things right. Also I could give you the Smash Bros trophy definition of Yoshi and Toad but appearently you'll ignore that factoid. Like you ignored the intro to Yoshi's Island for some reason...

And what I am I trying to do in that last paragraph. Logic? I'm not trying to use crazy Jedi Mind tricks.

I'm done. When I said you were beyond reason I was more right than I thought. You and all the other fans can love Rosalina. I honestly don't care that much. But when you/others get on this high horse and say "Rosalina is necessary; she deserved to be in Smash 4, she was the only 5th possible Mario representative," I get a tad annoyed. You can't try to fall back on the "this is only my opinion" tactic when you say 1) Other characters don't have value and therefore you can't devalue them and 2) the reasons for liking other characters are shallow.

The Smash Bros trophies refer to them as a collective race. Your point? Also, the refer to one Yoshi as such in Yoshi's island as they are merely using a singular term. Every single Yoshi is referred to as "Yoshi".

No, you were simplifying much more complicated and incomparable situations to the Daisy one. When you know full well (or should know) those one's run a lot deeper. Daisy was literally created to be a Peach stand in. There is literally no other reason for her creation, and she is merely an object in Super Mario Land, she had no personality. And the spin-offs have done nothing noteworthy with her. Bios may TELL you that Daisy is a tomboy and "more sporty" to try and differentiate her from Peach, but none of her character portrayals actually display this any more than with Peach, or even Rosalina for that matter, in more recent times. Daisy is the epitome of a character that was just created for a small and particular purpose. You can tell Gunpei Yokoi didn't care about this character when he created her, he just wanted a woman to replace Peach. Wario was his baby, and you can tell that since a lot was done with him.

And again, I only ever said she was necessary for my personal hype. Not to make the game good. Why do you keep ignoring that? It is personal opinion, and I am entitled to that. I can't help which characters get me excited for the roster.

And I have said in the past that Bowser Jr would be an adequate choice for a 5th Mario rep, but yeah, I think Rosalina makes a hell of a lot more sense, and I like her better anyway.

And can you tell me what isn't shallow about the seniority argument?

And can you tell me why I should be asking for Daisy or Toad or anyone else, over Rosalina? You haven't done a good job of that so far.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To be honest, Toad doesn't really have very much that could make him unique from the Mario Bros.. For Rosalina, the Luma gives her a much more diverse movepool that no one else is able to utilize.

 

[Tenchi Boom]

I still think Daisy should have been in instead as the other female Mario representative. She's been around since the 80s. Dont give me the whole "blah blah she's a Peach palette swap", so is Rosalina at first glance.

They could easily incorporate her Strikers gear to make her look different, and give her way more offensive attacks, as thats how she is.

Peach = balanced
Rosalina = defensive
Daisy = offensive

It makes perfect sense.

 

[HugoBoss]

Nope. No character is "needed".

 

[Tenchi Boom]

And the spin-offs have done nothing noteworthy with her. Bios may TELL you that Daisy is a tomboy and "more sporty" to try and differentiate her from Peach, but none of her character portrayals actually display this any more than with Peach, or even Rosalina for that matter, in more recent times.

Is this a joke? Have you heard Daisy? Of course you have it's impossible not to. That's because Daisys enthusiasm and attitude is constantly shoved in your face. How can you even insinuate Rosalina and Peach show as much enthusiasm as Daisy? Wario has more energy than Peach and Rosalina.

Daisy winning a race: "Yahhooo! I did it!!"
Peach winning a race: "Yeah, I won hehe"
Rosalina winning a race "Yes"

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Spin-off exclusives typically never make the cut at all. Just look at Waluigi's fate.

Yes I know that Daisy was in a mainstream game, but she only appeared in one game as the damsel in distress. After that, she got demoted to being only in spin-off titles. Rosalina is at least fortunate enough to have three mainstream appearances.

 

[YoshiandToad]

To be honest, Toad doesn't really have very much that could make him unique from the Mario Bros.

Well...he does now, but it came a bit too late for Smash 4. (Minecarts, pickaxes etc) Maybe Smash 5(or 6 if you're Sakurai...which I'd hazard you're not).

On topic:

No. She wasn't.

But then neither would (Captain) Toad of been a necessary character. Hell; a lot of the popular choices are a necessary at this point since they are nearly all either stars of niche smaller series of Nintendo(often with long hiatuses) or secondary individuals to important franchises like Rosie, Toad, Jr, Dixie Kong, Krystal and any Zelda character you care to name are.

Her moveset makes her necessary?
We survived this long without a puppet master and I don't recall seeing many cries for one.
When you think Rosalina you don't instantly think puppet master either, due to her caring nature. A motherly individual forcing her children to fight with her?

On the same mindset I'm fairly sure you could argue that Kamek could of just as easily of been a puppet master character by summoning and controlling random Mario species and at the same time I could envision him using hapless Shy Guys and Koopa Troopas to do his dirty work.

HOWEVER

Rosalina is a fan favourite and DOES represent Galaxy(a ground breaking Mario game), which is something I've come to respect in the past six months and her inclusion has and most likely will continue to please the masses, so whilst not necessary by any means she is very much well received by the fans.

At the end of the day, that is all that really matters.

 

[ChikoLad]

Is this a joke? Have you heard Daisy? Of course you have it's impossible not to. That's because Daisys enthusiasm and attitude is constantly shoved in your face. How can you even insinuate Rosalina and Peach show as much enthusiasm as Daisy? Wario has more energy than Peach and Rosalina.

Daisy winning a race: "Yahhooo! I did it!!"
Peach winning a race: "Yeah, I won hehe"
Rosalina winning a race "Yes"

Rosalina and Peach are MUCH more energetic than that in Mario Kart, don't even pretend they aren't.

Seriously, Daisy's Mario Kart quotes should not be enough to justify a spot over Rosalina. If that's the line of thought people are going to start giving me, I'm done with this thread.

Also, Super Mario Land is not a main series game. It's a spin-off. Beyond Mario himself, it uses no assets from the main series games or anything. Everything was re-skinned and replaced in some way.

Not to say that means the game is bad or anything, but it's just a handheld spin-off.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Her moveset makes her necessary?
We survived this long without a puppet master and I don't recall seeing many cries for one.
When you think Rosalina you don't instantly think puppet master either, due to her caring nature. A motherly individual forcing her children to fight with her?

Who said anything about Rosalina forcing the Lumas to fight with her? Maybe the Lumas actually want to fight alongside Rosalina, and will do whatever is necessary to keep her safe from harm.

Rosalina might be the adopted mother of the Lumas, but she's not a tyrant by any means.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Who said anything about Rosalina forcing the Lumas to fight with her?

Mostly the fact she summons them and controls them with her wand flicks.

But hey since when has Smash given a single care about canon anyway?

Princess Peach is supposed to be a benevolent ruler, and she uses her subjects as meatshields.

 

[Tenchi Boom]

I'm not saying her MK quotes justify her as a reason to be playable, I just hate it when people say Daisy is a Peach clone and nothing more. Like, really hate it. She's a tomboy Princess. Although cliche, it's still different to Peach and Rosalina. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% happy with what they did with Rosalina, it was a change the Mario games needed. I never thought a Mario game would make me sad. But when people hate on Daisy for being a clone when Rosalina pretty much is (based on appearance) it ticks me off.

I can't wait to play as Rosalina in Smash. I'm just hoping still Daisy is a Peach alt. I don't get why Sakurai would forget about Daisy, who has been around for yonks and has always been classed as the "second Princess" and chose Rosalina like Daisy doesn't exist like Nintendo does. "We chose Rosalina in Mario 3D World because we needed a second female representative." I mean, wow. That pissed off just about every Daisy fan.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not saying her MK quotes justify her as a reason to be playable, I just hate it when people say Daisy is a Peach clone and nothing more. Like, really hate it. She's a tomboy Princess. Although cliche, it's still different to Peach and Rosalina.

But the problem is, it's a completely justified opinion, no matter how much you hate it. Again, Daisy is stated as a tomboy in her character profiles. BUT, that doesn't count for anything when the games themselves do nothing to portray this. And nothing about Daisy's appearance, personality (or lack there of), or actions screams "tomboy" to me, at all.

One of the first things I see when I Google Image search for "tomboy" is:

How does that, in ANY way, remind someone of this (very first image that came up when I Google Image searched "princess daisy"):

But when people hate on Daisy for being a clone when Rosalina pretty much is (based on appearance) it ticks me off.

And it ticks me off when people say Rosalina is an aesthetic clone of Peach. I have written a summarised comparison of how they both look almost completely different, but I don't even need to post that. Instead, I'll just do this:

If they truly looked very similar, then photoshopping the face of one onto the other should require minimal editing (as in, I shouldn't even have to adjust proportions) to make their faces fit onto each other. However, that's clearly not what happened here. Notice, for starters, that I had to stretch Peach's face out to fit on Rosalina's head. And that they have different skin tones.

I can't wait to play as Rosalina in Smash. I'm just hoping still Daisy is a Peach alt. I don't get why Sakurai would forget about Daisy, who has been around for yonks and has always been classed as the "second Princess" and chose Rosalina like Daisy doesn't exist like Nintendo does. "We chose Rosalina in Mario 3D World because we needed a second female representative." I mean, wow. That pissed off just about every Daisy fan.

I'm sure there will be a Daisy alt in some capacity.
However, Sakurai is justified in picking Rosalina regardless of considering Daisy or not, and honestly, if people didn't have that non-sensical "seniority" mindset, then half of Rosalina's detractors wouldn't be complaining right now, and might enjoy the character for what she is without drawing anything negative from her inclusion (because I sincerely believe that beyond Dr. Mario, the Smash series has never wasted a roster slot, and therefore, never had a negative character inclusion besides Dr. Mario). People need to stop "blaming" Rosalina for Daisy or any other character not showing up in games. Has it ever occurred to anyone that Rosalina might just be a more widely appealing choice in certain aspects that are more relevant to Smash? I mean, if we took away these character's names, which sounds most genuinely exciting to play as in a Smash game, with all ironic thinking and joking aside - a space goddess with power that has no clear boundaries, or a princess with no particularly special abilities?

 

[Tenchi Boom]

Daisy's voice, hips-on-arm poses, short brown hair, and genuinely being described as tougher than Peach (Mario Gold, Strikers) are more than enough to show she's different rather than Googling "tomboy". Sorry but that's silly.

People blame Rosalina for taking over Daisy because Daisy has been the second female in the series for around 20 years, then some other Princess comes along, takes her spot, and is suddenly in every game Daisy is not (SM3DW, SSB). Surely you can see why I, as Daisy fans gets annoyed with Rosalina's inclusion over Daisy in recent Mario games? I wouldnt mind it as much if Daisy was included as well, but she's shafted to the side more than ever.

Also, that's the creepiest face swap I've ever seen.

 

[ChikoLad]

Daisy's voice, hips-on-arm poses, short brown hair, and genuinely being described as tougher than Peach (Mario Gold, Strikers) are more than enough to show she's different rather than Googling "tomboy". Sorry but that's silly.

People blame Rosalina for taking over Daisy because Daisy has been the second female in the series for around 20 years, then some other Princess comes along, takes her spot, and is suddenly in every game Daisy is not (SM3DW, SSB). Surely you can see why I, as Daisy fans gets annoyed with Rosalina's inclusion over Daisy in recent Mario games? I wouldnt mind it as much if Daisy was included as well, but she's shafted to the side more than ever.

Also, that's the creepiest face swap I've ever seen.

Her voice is high pitched, squeaky, and girly, just like Peach (heck, she might squeal MORE than Peach).
A hips-on-arm pose is...not really something I would associate with gender identity at all.
Short brown hair is, again, not something I would associate with gender identity. Plenty of girls have short brown hair, some are naturally born with it. Doesn't mean they identify as a tomboy as a result.
She's described as tougher, but she doesn't show it at all, so it's not a believable description. Peach IS in Smash Bros after all, and HAS gone on platforming adventures and RPG adventures, unlike Daisy, who's merely played sports and went to a few Mario parties.

They say "correlation does not equal causation", but I'm struggling to even see the correlation between "Princess Daisy" and "tomboy", let alone seeing certain traits of hers as causing her to be a tomboy.

And just because Rosalina is in more games and is objectively a more important character than Daisy, does not mean that Rosalina beat up Daisy and locked her in a dungeon so she couldn't show up in more games. We're talking about fictional characters here. They don't actually "steal" each other's roster space or anything.

It's also key to remember that Nintendo EAD did not create Daisy, but Rosalina is basically their baby. It's only natural that they would use Rosalina before they would Daisy, they OWN the character of Rosalina, after all.

 

[Super Writer]

Daisy's voice, hips-on-arm poses, short brown hair, and genuinely being described as tougher than Peach (Mario Gold, Strikers) are more than enough to show she's different rather than Googling "tomboy". Sorry but that's silly.

People blame Rosalina for taking over Daisy because Daisy has been the second female in the series for around 20 years, then some other Princess comes along, takes her spot, and is suddenly in every game Daisy is not (SM3DW, SSB). Surely you can see why I, as Daisy fans gets annoyed with Rosalina's inclusion over Daisy in recent Mario games? I wouldnt mind it as much if Daisy was included as well, but she's shafted to the side more than ever.

Also, that's the creepiest face swap I've ever seen.

I actually think Daisy would work really well, given her over competitive nature in some of the sports titles, as well as perhaps referencing some Super Mario Land elements such as the Super Balls or some of the stranger enemies like the flying Easter Island heads. The final smash could be her special shot from Mario Strikers, and function similar to Zelda's Light Arrows except a little more angled, and of course one taunt would have to be "Hi I'm Daisy", just to annoy opponents.

It's a shame Nintendo doesn't do more with her, or Tatanga for that matter (and Wart just saying), as I can't really think of a good reason to pick her over the rest of the Mario Sports cast, but hopefully that changes in the next few years. I mean they did eventually bring back Pauline.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

First off, I'm going to state that viewing characters as "needed" is a very unhealthy thing. Rosalina & Luma are justified due to being central to mario galaxy, (and Lumas in Galaxy 2), both of them having playable roles, (Rosalina has been in a bunch of spin offs and main series games, Luma has been technically playable in Galaxy 2 and mario tennis open).

They are also incredibly popular and have personality to boot. Lastly their moveset potential is shown clear as day.

 

[HugoBoss]

First off, I'm going to state that viewing characters as "needed" is a very unhealthy thing. Rosalina & Luma are justified due to being central to mario galaxy, (and Lumas in Galaxy 2), both of them having playable roles, (Rosalina has been in a bunch of spin offs and main series games, Luma has been technically playable in Galaxy 2 and mario tennis open).

They are also incredibly popular and have personality to boot. Lastly their moveset potential is shown clear as day.

But at the same time, other Mario characters like Bowser Jr or Toad are also equally justified.

 

[ChikoLad]

I wouldn't say equally, as Toad is a character I feel shouldn't make a playable appearance until they literally have no other characters they can work with (it's like saying Flickies from Sonic should be playable before Blaze the Cat in a Sonic related crossover game - Blaze the Cat is probably the closest parallel character to Rosalina in the Sonic universe, same with Flickies and Toad), and while I wouldn't mind Bowser. Jr. from a gameplay standpoint, he's objectively a poorly handled and poorly written character that's difficult to care about and get excited for.

And while I know someone is going to say "WELL EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO LIKE WHAT THEY LIKE", that doesn't change the fact that some objectivity should come into play when talking about Smash Bros, because at the end of the day, even the most terrible trainwrecks of games and characters have their fans.

And while I don't consider say, Daisy, a trainwreck, I've noticed that fans of characters that are barely defined generally love them for some real life related reason, rather than for an actual merit of the character. And while it's OK to have that (part of the reason I like Rosalina as much as I do is related to real life stuff), you shouldn't let that be the basis of wanting them for Smash, at least if you want to make a list that is going to be widely appealing. I may have sentimental and real life related reasons that make my affinity for Rosalina especially strong, but they were never a part of why I wanted to see her in Smash or any other game. I just feel she is genuinely well written, has a lot of appeal, establishes a very distinct connection between the player and the game world (so there is a universal connection to this character that every player will experience at some point if they play through Galaxy to it's completion), and being a space goddess with no known boundaries to her power, Sakurai would always of had waaaaaaay more freedom with Rosalina as far as moveset goes than he would have had with any other Mario rep, especially if we limit ourselves to main series reps.

 

[HugoBoss]

I wouldn't say equally, as Toad is a character I feel shouldn't make a playable appearance until they literally have no other characters they can work with (it's like saying Flickies from Sonic should be playable before Blaze the Cat in a Sonic related crossover game - Blaze the Cat is probably the closest parallel character to Rosalina in the Sonic universe, same with Flickies and Toad), and while I wouldn't mind Bowser. Jr. from a gameplay standpoint, he's objectively a poorly handled and poorly written character that's difficult to care about and get excited for.

And while I know someone is going to say "WELL EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO LIKE WHAT THEY LIKE", that doesn't change the fact that some objectivity should come into play when talking about Smash Bros, because at the end of the day, even the most terrible trainwrecks of games and characters have their fans.

And while I don't consider say, Daisy, a trainwreck, I've noticed that fans of characters that are barely defined generally love them for some real life related reason, rather than for an actual merit of the character. And while it's OK to have that (part of the reason I like Rosalina as much as I do is related to real life stuff), you shouldn't let that be the basis of wanting them for Smash, at least if you want to make a list that is going to be widely appealing. I may have sentimental and real life related reasons that make my affinity for Rosalina especially strong, but they were never a part of why I wanted to see her in Smash or any other game. I just feel she is genuinely well written, has a lot of appeal, establishes a very distinct connection between the player and the game world (so there is a universal connection to this character that every player will experience at some point if they play through Galaxy to it's completion), and being a space goddess with no known boundaries to her power, Sakurai would always of had waaaaaaay more freedom with Rosalina as far as moveset goes than he would have had with any other Mario rep, especially if we limit ourselves to main series reps.

Are you seriously comparing Toad to Flickies? I guess Sakurai scraped the bottom of the barrel when he picked Yoshi in 64 then, cause because he is part of a species as well. Really? You are undermining Toad's importance to make Rosalina seem more important than she is, which is wrong. I did not come here to start some subjective debate among purists, Coming from a Rosalina fan myself I believe they are all equally justified for character slots to represent the Mario series. They are all popular and have lots of moveset potiential.BTW don't even compare the Toad to Flickies or Chao, the comparison simply isn't fair and to be honest, Blaze isn't of much importance in the Sonic series since her debut unlike Rosalina who has appeared in recently in a main tilte among many spin-offs unlike Blaze who just appears in spin-offs, it would be insulting to Rosalina to compare her to Blaze. Toad unlike Flickies and Chao is not some backround extra reoccurring with minor roles in certain games. He is his OWN character that happens to be part of a larger species, just like Yoshi, and I think after playing the Mario & Sonic games showed how not comparable those two franchises are. If you want a better comparision, don't use the Sonic series.

None of those characters are needed, as viewing a character as needed is indeed unhealthy, but they are all justified in their own right. Your reasons for why Rosalina is more justified than that of Bowser Jr and Toad is pretty subjective and it does not reflect on the importance of characters but just what tou think of them, which is ironic since the next post you described Rosalina's actual merit and good reasons too but did not use personal reasons, which you did for Toad and BowserJR.

 

[ChikoLad]

Are you seriously comparing Toad to Flickies? I guess Sakurai scraped the bottom of the barrel when he picked Yoshi in 64 then, cause because he is part of a species as well. Really? You are undermining Toad's importance to make Rosalina seem more important than she is, which is wrong. I did not come here to start some subjective debate among purists, Coming from a Rosalina fan myself I believe they are all equally justified for character slots to represent the Mario series. They are all popular and have lots of moveset potiential.BTW don't even compare the Toad to Flickies or Chao, the comparison simply isn't fair and to be honest, Blaze isn't of much importance in the Sonic series since her debut unlike Rosalina who has appeared in recently in a main tilte among many spin-offs unlike Blaze who just appears in spin-offs, it would be insulting to Rosalina to compare her to Blaze. Toad unlike Flickies and Chao is not some backround extra reoccurring with minor roles in certain games. He is his OWN character that happens to be part of a larger species, just like Yoshi, and I think after playing the Mario & Sonic games showed how not comparable those two franchises are. If you want a better comparision, don't use the Sonic series.

None of those characters are needed, as viewing a character as needed is indeed unhealthy, but they are all justified in their own right. Your reasons for why Rosalina is more justified than that of Bowser Jr and Toad is pretty subjective and it does not reflect on the importance of characters but just what tou think of them, which is ironic since the next post you described Rosalina's actual merit and good reasons too but did not use personal reasons, which you did for Toad and BowserJR.

But Yoshi is it's own series with it's own wide variety of very defined mechanics that are separate from the Mario games, that, to be quite honest, fit into Smash like a glove. Plus, Yoshis have some really important connections and nuances in their games that help the player get more invested in caring about the Yoshis, and even have this quality in Super Mario World and Galaxy 2 (for example, in Yoshi's Story, your lives are represented by individual Yoshis - once one is captured, it's gone for good, and Yoshis are not infinite in it). So no, Yoshi was a very worthy addition, despite being a part of a race and not really being a single character.

And no, I am not undermining Toad to make Rosalina seem better or more important than she is (frankly, I don't need to), but Toads are to Mario what Flickies are to Sonic. Flickies even starred in their own game, which is something people ALWAYS overlook when I make the comparison between Flickies and Toads, and then they try to pretend Toad is more important in Mario than Flickies are in Sonic:

As for Chao, I didn't even bring them into this because they are EXTREMELY important in various Sonic games, both plot wise and otherwise. Even the latest mobile Sonic game from Hardlight, Sonic Jump Fever, which came out just yesterday, features Chao.

And Blaze has arguably more important roles than Rosalina has (saying this as someone who likes Rosalina more). She starred alongside Sonic in Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure, and was playable in Sonic '06, and had a very big role in that game's story (crap as it may be). She's appeared in various spin-offs too, and was also in Sonic Generations as one of the friends Sonic had to save, who were attending Sonic's birthday party. In terms of purpose, though, they are pretty similar characters, being ladies of authourity and power, who take action and have emotional instabilities and have a diverse amount of powers with no clear boundaries. Blaze also has a motherly side, as demonstrated by her relationship with Cream, Cheese, and Marine.

And I don't see how comparing Blaze to Rosalina is a bad thing or insulting either one, as they are both appealing and really well written and nuanced characters.

And sorry, but saying Yoshi and Toad are single characters that just so happen to name themselves after their species is nothing more than a flimsy headcanon.

And I didn't use personal reasons for Toad and BJ, I've went through them many times already.

BJ is a poorly handled character, end of story. His story in Sunshine doesn't get a true resolution with no sign of us ever getting a resolution to it (we still don't know who his mother is, and he only cared about kidnapping Peach because he believed her to be his mother. Getting to meet and spend time with his mother was his entire motivation for doing what he did in Sunshine, and he never got to even meet her, since Peach wasn't really his mother), he doesn't have anything particularly unique that he could do (the Paint Brush may seem like this at first, but in actuality, his paint powers in Sunshine only damaged things at a slow rate, and created two or three specific enemies. And transformed him into a Mario copy, which, well, we already had Dr. Mario for. None of these things are unique to Smash). And since Sunshine, he's played very replaceable roles (as in, it would not have made a difference if it was a generic Koopa Troopa piloting those mechs in Galaxy) and hardly even gets acknowledged by Bowser (except this isn't a plot point, they simply shoe horned Bowser. Jr into Galaxy and NSMB - his roles in those games were extremely unimportant to the point that they didn't even make scenes between him and Bowser, which is most jarring in Galaxy's case, as that game had a fairly strong focus on story and plot elements).

Do I hate Bowser. Jr? No. Do I think he's a character with a ton of untapped potential? Yes. Do I think Nintendo will ever tap into that potential? No, I have no reason to believe they will, nor does anybody else. And as a result, there is no reason for anyone to objectively accept that Bowser. Jr has a justified place in Smash, and certainly not over Rosalina, who was objectively written much better and has limitless potential moveset wise anyway, and I've actually been given consistent reasoning to care about and be charmed by the character. I don't care if Bowser. Jr came first. That means nothing. You don't like a character based on the fact they existed longer, anyone who uses that argument is grasping at straws for a character who has little actual merit.

As for Toad, again - Toads are extras. We have Captain Toad and Toadsworth, who are endearing characters, but they are completely unsuitable for fighting (One of Captain Toad's defining characteristics is that he CAN'T JUMP, which, needless to say, causes problems in Smash). Plus, Toads are born cowards, and fighting is against their nature (they often hide behind Peach - which makes Peach's neutral B very funny, as she is forcing them to stand guard in front of her, for once). Plus - Toad literally has done NOTHING that Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina don't already do. In NSMB, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are exact clones of Mario and Luigi. And in SMB2 USA and 3D World, only Toad's properties differ from the other characters. The Toads don't have unique abilities in those games.

 

[Ryan.]

She's quite a unique fighter, I don't see why she shouldn't be included. Super Mario Galaxy is a popular game, and many people know about her.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

But at the same time, other Mario characters like Bowser Jr or Toad are also equally justified.

I think you missed my point because you are exactly right. They are justified, but they aren't needed. They would be cool additions of course and I would welcome them with open arms. They are just not needed. Rosalina is also not needed.