Were Rosalina and Luma necessary?

[ChunkyBeef]

Now you're literally just telling me "I'm right and you're wrong" without trying to back it up.

You can blame my avatars all you want, but at the end of the day, filtering out facts for the sake of making your argument sound more plausible does not a good argument make. No matter what the subject is. It's outright delusional, because you are literally ignoring the reality of the situation so things sound prettier to you.

How much more do I have to back it up than say 'They're like Ice Climbers because they play like Ice Climbers.'. And they do. I pointed out what makes them different from the Ice Climbers (which is fairly little), but fundamentally, they're still Ice Climbers.

And you say I'M the one ignoring the reality of the situation so things sound prettier to ME?

Man, I have finally run into the most ironic statement I will have ever heard on the internet to date. I can finally pack it up and move on. I feel like a ghost that's finally been allowed entrance into heaven. It's all over, I can stop suffering.

All kidding aside, man, like I said, I'm not trying to devalue the character. My argument is sound because at the end of the day, Rosalina is a simpler character than people are giving her credit for. All I did merely was point out that her level of complexity isn't even that of the Ice Climber's. My not wanting her to be in is, like everyone else's in this topic, purely personal opinion.

I just have a problem with people saying 'GOSH ROSALINA'S THE MOST AMAZING CHARACTER EVER THE MOST UNIQUE AND SHE TOTALLY DESERVED TO BE IN BECAUSE SHE'S THE GALAXY PRINCESS' when she's Space Peach: Ice Climbers Model. Of course that first part is, again, personal opinion, but let's just agree with one another that Rosalina is the Ice Climbers for people who don't want to learn how to desynch Nana and call it a day.

EDIT: Just for a little further proof that you're absolutely insane, a brief conversation with a friend on Steam who's not a rabid Smash fan. Names have been changed to protect the innocent:

11:56 AM - Magi: So, how familiar are you with Smash Brothers, and, particularly, how familiar are you with the new one coming up?
11:57 AM - Dax: Decently, why?
11:57 AM - Magi: You know about the Ice Climbers?
11:57 AM - Magi: And you know how Rosalina is a thing?
11:57 AM - Magi: In the new game?
11:58 AM - Dax: I already planned for the worst.
11:57 AM - Magi: Heh.
11:58 AM - Dax: No Falcon, no G&W, no Ice Climbers
11:58 AM - Magi: When you look at Rosalina, do you not see the Ice Climbers? I mean, not aesthetically..
11:58 AM - Magi: But functionally.
11:58 AM - Dax: I do. Considering Luma can come back even if you KO it.
11:58 AM - Magi: Thank you.
11:59 AM - Dax: And they attack in tandem.

There you have it, folks.

 

[ChikoLad]

Did you not read the last sentence?

edit: Also, when those characters have multiple important roles of which both Toad and BJ do then they do equal importance. Toad has been playable 4 times I believe and Bowser Junior has been a final boss once in his own personal 3D game, a co-final boss at least twice, and several regular boss roles.

BJ has had one important role - Sunshine. It is the only game that acknowledges him as an actual character. In the Galaxy games, he was a random mini-boss with no real importance to the story (his robots could have been unmanned robots and it would not have made any difference). Bowser never even interacts with him either. Never speaks to him, speaks of him, or even does anything with him. They randomly share a few frames near the end, but that's it, and they still don't even interact. In the NSMB games, he's literally just the eight Koopaling. He has never been a final boss in any game. He was integrated into the final boss fight of NSMBU, but he's essentially a stepping stone for you to be able to attack Bowser.

Toad is not a character. Toads are a race. There was an unnamed Toad who starred in Wario's Woods, and you could play as him in Super Mario Bros 2 USA. However, in Super Mario Bros 2 USA, he was just a stand in for a character from the original Doki Doki Panic game, since he had a similar design to that character, and the original game was Arabian themed, as is Toad, so he fit the world of that game, since they couldn't re-tool it to be the Mushroom Kingdom.

Then you can play as Toads in a few multiplayer platformers, but it's still a nameless one in each case.
And then we have the Captain Toad game coming out.

In reality, the only game I count here is the Captain Toad game, since Captain Toad is a specific character, with an actually defined personality. But he debuted in Galaxy, and certainly isn't the first thing people would think of to represent Galaxy (I'm foreshadowing, you see), and his new game has only been announced. The fact Toads are playable in the main series platformers is just laziness on Nintendo's part, and the one in 3D World is literally only there so they could say "aaaaaay it's like Super Mario Bros 2 in the US". I honestly don't think anyone would have cared if Toad wasn't in the game, and the fourth player was just Rosalina, who was in the game anyway.

Waluigi doesn't actually have a very strong fanbase, and with good reason - he only ever existed so Wario could have a partner in Mario Tennis. Hardly any effort has been made to make him more distinct from Wario.

Going into more opinion based territory, while it would be cool for Paper Mario to get a rep, I don't want it to be Paper Mario (besides, it would be entirely possible to make him an alternate costume for Mario). He is literally the exact same person as Mario, drawn in a different art style because why not. There are far more interesting choices within the Paper Mario franchise, it's full of really quirky characters - specifically the villains. And we do need more villains in Smash.

Rosalina, on the other hand, had a major role in the Galaxy series, had a defined purpose and personality within the Mario universe at large, had a fleshed out backstory, had a playable role in 3D World, and has proven to be one of the most popular Mario characters (play MK8 online - and no, it isn't her stats, Waluigi has identical stats to her, and Donkey Kong and Roy Koopa have minuscule stat differences to her). Plus, she's basically god in the Mario universe, so moveset potential is infinite. and even without all of that, people think of her when they think of Galaxy, and Nintendo want to strongly represent Galaxy since it got no representation in Brawl.

And yes, story importance is a relevant point. Otherwise, we would have Magnus as the new KI rep - a character who you could play as, but had little story relevance. But instead, we got Palutena, who you never play as in the KI games, but she's very important to the story. Plus, a character that's got a story behind them or is involved in some grand story in a significant way, is always going to be more memorable than one you play as with no real reason behind it(e.g. Toad).

How much more do I have to back it up than say 'They're like Ice Climbers because they play like Ice Climbers.'. And they do. I pointed out what makes them different from the Ice Climbers (which is fairly little), but fundamentally, they're still Ice Climbers.

And you say I'M the one ignoring the reality of the situation so things sound prettier to ME?

Man, I have finally run into the most ironic statement I will have ever heard on the internet to date. I can finally pack it up and move on. I feel like a ghost that's finally been allowed entrance into heaven. It's all over, I can stop suffering.

All kidding aside, man, like I said, I'm not trying to devalue the character. My argument is sound because at the end of the day, Rosalina is a simpler character than people are giving her credit for. All I did merely was point out that her level of complexity isn't even that of the Ice Climber's. My not wanting her to be in is, like everyone else's in this topic, purely personal opinion.

I just have a problem with people saying 'GOSH ROSALINA'S THE MOST AMAZING CHARACTER EVER THE MOST UNIQUE AND SHE TOTALLY DESERVED TO BE IN BECAUSE SHE'S THE GALAXY PRINCESS' when she's Space Peach: Ice Climbers Model. Of course that first part is, again, personal opinion, but let's just agree with one another that Rosalina is the Ice Climbers for people who don't want to learn how to desynch Nana and call it a day.

EDIT: Just for a little further proof that you're absolutely insane, a brief conversation with a friend on Steam who's not a rabid Smash fan. Names have been changed to protect the innocent:

11:56 AM - Magi: So, how familiar are you with Smash Brothers, and, particularly, how familiar are you with the new one coming up?
11:57 AM - Dax: Decently, why?
11:57 AM - Magi: You know about the Ice Climbers?
11:57 AM - Magi: And you know how Rosalina is a thing?
11:57 AM - Magi: In the new game?
11:58 AM - Dax: I already planned for the worst.
11:57 AM - Magi: Heh.
11:58 AM - Dax: No Falcon, no G&W, no Ice Climbers
11:58 AM - Magi: When you look at Rosalina, do you not see the Ice Climbers? I mean, not aesthetically..
11:58 AM - Magi: But functionally.
11:58 AM - Dax: I do. Considering Luma can come back even if you KO it.
11:58 AM - Magi: Thank you.
11:59 AM - Dax: And they attack in tandem.

There you have it, folks.

>say they aren't trying to de-value the character
>goes on to say the following in the same post:

I just have a problem with people saying 'GOSH ROSALINA'S THE MOST AMAZING CHARACTER EVER THE MOST UNIQUE AND SHE TOTALLY DESERVED TO BE IN BECAUSE SHE'S THE GALAXY PRINCESS' when she's Space Peach: Ice Climbers Model.

That's really all I need to leave you with.

And talking to a guy on Steam who hasn't really looked into the game a whole lot, who agrees with you, does not prove your point in the slightest. Ever heard of the saying "never judge a book by it's cover"?

Also:

11:58 AM - Dax: I do. Considering Luma can come back even if you KO it.

Ice Climbers don't do this, the secondary one only respawns after the main one is KO''d.

And:

11:59 AM - Dax: And they attack in tandem.

tan·dem(t

n

d

m)
n.
1. A two-wheeled carriage drawn by horses harnessed one before the other.
2. A team of carriage horses harnessed in single file.
3. A tandem bicycle.
4. An arrangement of two or more persons or objects placed one behind the other: driving horses in tandem.

The first three definitions are irrelevant to this topic, but the 4th one is only relevant to Ice Climbers. Rosalina & Luma CAN do it, but it's not their focus. And even then, they work in an asynchronous manner, since they perform different attacks.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Snip

All right, man, whatever you say.

Teamwork IS the character's focus, just like Ice Climbers. The only difference is that, as said previously, the character can resummon their partner (something Ice Climbers can't do without losing a stock, and arguably one of Rosalina's two genuinely unique aspects), but Ice Climbers can desynch with practice and skill, something that Rosalina can do with Luma on command (her other unique aspect).

They still attack at the same time when buttons are pressed.

They still clearly encourage you fight with the Luma, otherwise the Luma wouldn't gradually come back without being commanded to.

So.. yeah, sorry, but Rosalina is Ice Climbers Lite. Again, not trying to devalue your waifu or anything here, since she at least she has some unique aspects to her that sets her apart from the Ice Climbers, however minimal they might be, but you can't argue that the both serve the same function and purpose, but just.. Rosalina approaches it slightly differently.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Did Rosalina really deserve a spot over someone like Bowser Jr. or Paper Mario, not really. Well, just in my eyes that is.

BUT

What they did with her and Luma is really, really cool. We've never had a puppeteer character in Smash before. I wasn't really too excite with her at first, but with seeing what she can do she is pretty freakin' cool.

 

[ChikoLad]

All right, man, whatever you say.

Teamwork IS the character's focus, just like Ice Climbers. The only difference is that, as said previously, the character can resummon their partner (something Ice Climbers can't do without losing a stock, and arguably one of Rosalina's two genuinely unique aspects), but Ice Climbers can desynch with practice and skill, something that Rosalina can do with Luma on command (her other unique aspect).

They still attack at the same time when buttons are pressed.

They still clearly encourage you fight with the Luma, otherwise the Luma wouldn't gradually come back without being commanded to.

So.. yeah, sorry, but Rosalina is Ice Climbers Lite. Again, not trying to devalue your waifu or anything here, since she at least she has some unique aspects to her that sets her apart from the Ice Climbers, however minimal they might be, but you can't argue that the both serve the same function and purpose, but just.. Rosalina approaches it slightly differently.

Rosalina can't re-summon Luma herself, it respawns after about 8 seconds after it's KO'd, proving my point that Luma is merely there to balance out the fact that she's a huge target and is floaty (her main weakness), and is also designed to be a competent solo fighter, which is not the case with the Ice Climbers. If you actually watched some gameplay of her, you'd notice that her damage output on her own is actually really good. And hardly anybody who played as her in the demo could use Luma all that well, yet still could win matches.

So yeah, you really have no case. Rosalina is a completely unique character, and functions nothing like the Ice Climbers beyond the method of activating attacks.

Plus, as has already been pointed out, your mindset of ignoring unique aspects of a character to make them sound less unique is extremely flawed, as I demonstrated when I applied it to other characters.

 

[Niala]

Rosalina is slowly becoming something akin to Daisy-- she appeared in one game as a main plot point, and is now taking over a lot of the party games while not retaining much necessity in main titles. Regardless of that, I think she was a fine character choice, as she provides a unique and interesting character experience and seems a very logical addition from the Super Mario franchise.

As far as the Rosaluma/IceClimbers debate, I don't personally think they have too much in common; certainly, they have more in common with each other than with any other fighters, but to say they operate similarly in-game is hard to tell at this point. The willful desync being a direct part of Rosalumas character design seems drastically different from the Ice Climbers, where that capacity was influenced by players moreso than being a direct part of the design of the Ice Climbers themselves. Again, though, it's hard to tell-- it may turn out that Luma is more effectively used as a defensive tool, providing close range spacing, rather than a combo piece at range.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Rosalina can't re-summon Luma herself, it respawns after about 8 seconds after it's KO'd, proving my point that Luma is merely there to balance out the fact that she's a huge target and is floaty (her main weakness), and is also designed to be a competent solo fighter, which is not the case with the Ice Climbers. If you actually watched some gameplay of her, you'd notice that her damage output on her own is actually really good. And hardly anybody who played as her in the demo could use Luma all that well, yet still could win matches.

So yeah, you really have no case. Rosalina is a completely unique character, and functions nothing like the Ice Climbers beyond the method of activating attacks.

Plus, as has already been pointed out, your mindset of ignoring unique aspects of a character to make them sound less unique is extremely flawed, as I demonstrated when I applied it to other characters.

You'd be surprised how well Popo can fight without Nana. He fights just fine without Nana, the difference is that his recovery is gimped and his damage potential is halved, but he can still fight solo. I've seen some sick Popo solo gameplay in both Brawl and Melee. Rosalina just seems to be more capable of functioning without a Luma, but still needs a Luma to increase damage output.

I didn't pay much attention to Rosalina's damage output in videos because four player matches are chaotic and confusing, so I'll take your word for it there. Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if Rosalina does solid damage, since that's her whole point.

My argument is that Rosalina ISN'T a completely unique character. If you mean aesthetically, sure, there's no-one like her. In terms of gameplay, she borrows heavily from the Ice Climbers. She's essentially a heavier, slightly more elaborate clone that's got a lower skill ceiling than the character she's a clone of, that has better odds of winning a fight solo.

And I'm not ignoring unique gameplay aspects. I state several times that Rosalina has unique gameplay aspects that sets her apart, but..

1.) She consists of two characters, just like the Ice Climbers (Rosalina & Luma, Popo & Nana).
2.) The game encourages you to fight alongside Luma, because the Luma sticks to you and follows your inputs (just like IC's).
3.) She can desynch herself from her Luma in a positional capacity. The same can be said about IC's, in a lesser capacity.
4.) Luma helps with damage dealing and defense (just like Nana). Luma also assists with recovery, just like Nana.

BUT..

1.) Rosalina can voluntarily distance herself from her Luma at a greater range opening up interesting gameplay possibilities.
2.) Rosalina can voluntarily command her Luma from a far greater distance in comparison, allowing her to potentially fight without being in any real danger.
3.) The Luma reappears/can be resummoned, something the IC's can't do without losing a stock. (And, yes, Rosalina can summon her own Luma, she doesn't have to wait.)

Fundamentally, at Rosalina's core, she plays EXACTLY LIKE THE ICE CLIMBERS, but, more specifically, her character has a far greater focus on self-preservation, distancing oneself from the fight instead of being right up in it, and doesn't punish you for partner loss/sacrifice. Because of this, she's the casual man's Ice Climbers.

Ice Climbers Lite.

 

[ChikoLad]

Rosalina is slowly becoming something akin to Daisy-- she appeared in one game as a main plot point, and is now taking over a lot of the party games while not retaining much necessity in main titles. Regardless of that, I think she was a fine character choice, as she provides a unique and interesting character experience and seems a very logical addition from the Super Mario franchise.

I actually think the opposite is true. While her role in Galaxy 2 wasn't as big or direct, it was still relevant (the story of the game, so to speak, is told by her, as revealed in the final ending, and having her reside on your ship is basically the final reward in the game). Then she showed up in 3D World, and now Smash.

There's also the point that Nintendo EAD made her. She's as much of a main character as Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Toad and Bowser, when it comes to the main series games. The reason why Daisy and Wario and the like don't show up in the main series is because they weren't created by Nintendo EAD, and were intended for different games entirely. And since Gunpei Yokoi passed away, he no longer can do anything with his creations.

As for why Wario has his own series and Daisy doesn't, I think that's merely because Daisy is the epitome of an after thought character. Gunpei's biggest contribution to the Mario franchise is really the creation of Wario.

Going back to Rosalina, Miyamoto has already teased Galaxy 3, so she'll likely be showing up there.

And besides:

I dunno, she just fits right in. Plus, it's nice to have someone who's not completely happy go-lucky. It really feels like she's here to stay.

You'd be surprised how well Popo can fight without Nana. He fights just fine without Nana, the difference is that his recovery is gimped and his damage potential is halved, but he can still fight solo. I've seen some sick Popo solo gameplay in both Brawl and Melee. Rosalina just seems to be more capable of functioning without a Luma, but still needs a Luma to increase damage output.

I didn't pay much attention to Rosalina's damage output in videos because four player matches are chaotic and confusing, so I'll take your word for it there. Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if Rosalina does solid damage, since that's her whole point.

My argument is that Rosalina ISN'T a completely unique character. If you mean aesthetically, sure, there's no-one like her. In terms of gameplay, she borrows heavily from the Ice Climbers. She's essentially a heavier, slightly more elaborate clone that's got a lower skill ceiling than the character she's a clone of, that has better odds of winning a fight solo.

And I'm not ignoring unique gameplay aspects. I state several times that Rosalina has unique gameplay aspects that sets her apart, but..

1.) She consists of two characters, just like the Ice Climbers (Rosalina & Luma, Popo & Nana).
2.) The game encourages you to fight alongside Luma, because the Luma sticks to you and follows your inputs (just like IC's).
3.) She can desynch herself from her Luma in a positional capacity. The same can be said about IC's, in a lesser capacity.
4.) Luma helps with damage dealing and defense (just like Nana). Luma also assists with recovery, just like Nana.

BUT..

1.) Rosalina can voluntarily distance herself from her Luma at a greater range opening up interesting gameplay possibilities.
2.) Rosalina can voluntarily command her Luma from a far greater distance in comparison, allowing her to potentially fight without being in any real danger.
3.) The Luma reappears/can be resummoned, something the IC's can't do without losing a stock. (And, yes, Rosalina can summon her own Luma, she doesn't have to wait.)

Fundamentally, at Rosalina's core, she plays EXACTLY LIKE THE ICE CLIMBERS, but, more specifically, her character has a far greater focus on self-preservation, distancing oneself from the fight instead of being right up in it, and doesn't punish you for partner loss/sacrifice. Because of this, she's the casual man's Ice Climbers.

Ice Climbers Lite.

Popo cannot fair well on his own, he is completely sub par on his own. Sure, good players will survive a bit better even with just him, that goes without saying. However, Popo on his own is a slow character that doesn't have the damage to back it up, and every single one of his specials become half as powerful in some aspect, and the his two recovery moves lose their recovery properties. Compare this to Rosalina, who simply lacks a puppet to command for a few seconds, and her max damage output gets reduced by like, 4%, since she can't have a Luma by her side.

My argument is that Rosalina ISN'T a completely unique character.

I never said she was. But you are overstating her similarities to another character. As far as character archetypes go though, she is completely unique, as she is the only puppet master in the game.

1.) She consists of two characters, just like the Ice Climbers (Rosalina & Luma, Popo & Nana).

Moot point. Every other roster slot consists of single fighters. Are we gonna say they are all Lite or heavier versions of one another now?...

2.) The game encourages you to fight alongside Luma, because the Luma sticks to you and follows your inputs (just like IC's).

No, the game encourages you to use Luma as you see fit. You can fight with Luma by your side if you want, or keep him as far as possible, or simply be adaptive depending on the situation. She has a lot of options for Luma.

Also, Rosalina & Luma don't have equal lag time or animation time on all of their moves, so keeping them in sync at all times is impossible.

3.) She can desynch herself from her Luma in a positional capacity. The same can be said about IC's, in a lesser capacity.

As I just explained, she's not even synched to begin with. The Luma floating by her side is just so it can be used as a human shield, and so it can be used in a "back-to-back" formation.

4.) Luma helps with damage dealing and defense (just like Nana). Luma also assists with recovery, just like Nana.

Nana doesn't help with defense. You can't really intentionally use Nana as a shield, because she sticks behind you. Luma can be positioned as needed.

And Rosalina's recovery is not effected at all by Luma. Her recovery move is a Launch Star.

(And, yes, Rosalina can summon her own Luma, she doesn't have to wait.)

Nope, that part of her trailer was just a choreographed trick. The animation Rosalina performed while "summoning" the Luma was one of her taunts. This has already been confirmed by people who have tried Rosalina at E3 and Smash fest. And no, the taunt itself does not summon Luma. As of the E3 demo, Luma's cannot be manually summoned, they automatically respawn with Rosalina if she is KO'd before the Luma spawns, or in 8 seconds otherwise.

Another point worth noting about Luma is that after it is launched, it has to actually land on the ground before it can attack again. It can't move side to side or attack out of it's after-launch state.

 

[SmashShadow]

BJ has had one important role - Sunshine. It is the only game that acknowledges him as an actual character. In the Galaxy games, he was a random mini-boss with no real importance to the story (his robots could have been unmanned robots and it would not have made any difference). Bowser never even interacts with him either. Never speaks to him, speaks of him, or even does anything with him. They randomly share a few frames near the end, but that's it, and they still don't even interact. In the NSMB games, he's literally just the eight Koopaling. He has never been a final boss in any game. He was integrated into the final boss fight of NSMBU, but he's essentially a stepping stone for you to be able to attack Bowser.

Being the main boss of his own game along with being a boss in several of the main games adds up though. And no, he certainly was not a "mini-boss", he was a boss just like the others in both games. Bowser interacted with him in Sunshine and that already establishes the character and more so than 90% of the other Mario characters. And since when does Bowser's interaction with Junior matter anyways especially in the case of Smash? And while he is definitely another Koopling, he is clearly the leader and it shows in cutscenes. There's nothing wrong with that.

Toad is not a character. Toads are a race. There was an unnamed Toad who starred in Wario's Woods, and you could play as him in Super Mario Bros 2 USA. However, in Super Mario Bros 2 USA, he was just a stand in for a character from the original Doki Doki Panic game, since he had a similar design to that character, and the original game was Arabian themed, as is Toad, so he fit the world of that game, since they couldn't re-tool it to be the Mushroom Kingdom.

Then you can play as Toads in a few multiplayer platformers, but it's still a nameless one in each case.
And then we have the Captain Toad game coming out.

In reality, the only game I count here is the Captain Toad game, since Captain Toad is a specific character, with an actually defined personality. But he debuted in Galaxy, and certainly isn't the first thing people would think of to represent Galaxy (I'm foreshadowing, you see), and his new game has only been announced. The fact Toads are playable in the main series platformers is just laziness on Nintendo's part, and the one in 3D World is literally only there so they could say "aaaaaay it's like Super Mario Bros 2 in the US". I honestly don't think anyone would have cared if Toad wasn't in the game, and the fourth player was just Rosalina, who was in the game anyway.

And any of this matters why when we have Yoshi who is also an amalgam? Also, there is a toad who is just named Toad just like there is a Yoshi who is just named Yoshi.

Waluigi doesn't actually have a very strong fanbase, and with good reason - he only ever existed so Wario could have a partner in Mario Tennis. Hardly any effort has been made to make him more distinct from Wario.

Role =/= Popularity

Going into more opinion based territory, while it would be cool for Paper Mario to get a rep, I don't want it to be Paper Mario (besides, it would be entirely possible to make him an alternate costume for Mario). He is literally the exact same person as Mario, drawn in a different art style because why not. There are far more interesting choices within the Paper Mario franchise, it's full of really quirky characters - specifically the villains. And we do need more villains in Smash.

I fully agree with this part right here but with Toon Link and to a lesser but similar degree ZSS and Sheik still on the roster anything is possible.

Rosalina, on the other hand, had a major role in the Galaxy series, had a defined purpose and personality within the Mario universe at large, had a fleshed out backstory, had a playable role in 3D World, and has proven to be one of the most popular Mario characters (play MK8 online - and no, it isn't her stats, Waluigi has identical stats to her, and Donkey Kong and Roy Koopa have minuscule stat differences to her). Plus, she's basically god in the Mario universe, so moveset potential is infinite. and even without all of that, people think of her when they think of Galaxy, and Nintendo want to strongly represent Galaxy since it got no representation in Brawl.

And yes, story importance is a relevant point. Otherwise, we would have Magnus as the new KI rep - a character who you could play as, but had little story relevance. But instead, we got Palutena, who you never play as in the KI games, but she's very important to the story. Plus, a character that's got a story behind them or is involved in some grand story in a significant way, is always going to be more memorable than one you play as with no real reason behind it(e.g. Toad).

I'm not sure you can make a comparison for Magnus as you played him for 1 chapter in the entire game and he was absent in all but 3 chapters and there were at least 3 other characters that showed up in practically the entire game. Not only that but there's really not much you can do with Magnus because he's only been shown to do 2 things in his game both of which are generic attacks (kicks and sword swings). Comparing that to Toad who has plenty of things he can use as attacks makes that argument kind of mute. Yes, Toad may not be as memorable from a story point but from a nostalgia point, he beats her pretty easily.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Popo cannot fair well on his own, he is completely sub par on his own. Sure, good players will survive a bit better even with just him, that goes without saying. However, Popo on his own is a slow character that doesn't have the damage to back it up, and every single one of his specials become half as powerful in some aspect, and the his two recovery moves lose their recovery properties. Compare this to Rosalina, who simply lacks a puppet to command for a few seconds, and her max damage output gets reduced by like, 4%, since she can't have a Luma by her side.

Naturally. The whole point of the Ice Climbers is that they have to work as a team, just as Rosalina & Luma. The difference there is that Ice Climbers are at a huge disadvantage solo but beastly as a team, while Rosalina relies less on her Luma to be a productive fighter but her Luma doesn't make a huge difference.

I never said she was. But you are overstating her similarities to another character. As far as character archetypes go though, she is completely unique, as she is the only puppet master in the game.

Yeah, you did.

So yeah, you really have no case. Rosalina is a completely unique character, and functions nothing like the Ice Climbers beyond the method of activating attacks.

Moot point. Every other roster slot consists of single fighters. Are we gonna say they are all Lite or heavier versions of one another now?...

Yeah, there are. Toon Link is Link Lite (though we can argue he's ironically a better fighter). Dr. Mario is a heavier Mario, Pichu is a lighter Pikachu, Falco is a heavier Fox, Young Link is a lighter Link, Luigi was pretty much a slightly different Mario 'til Brawl. So, yeah, Rosalina is essentially a more elaborate clone pretending to be a unique character.

No, the game encourages you to use Luma as you see fit. You can fight with Luma by your side if you want, or keep him as far as possible, or simply be adaptive depending on the situation. She has a lot of options for Luma.

Also, Rosalina & Luma don't have equal lag time or animation time on all of their moves, so keeping them in sync at all times is impossible.

As someone who had a chance to play Rosalina on the 3DS during Smashfest, Rosalina and Luma are surprisingly in synch with one another when they're together. You really won't even notice a difference. You can segue into other attacks and Luma follows up appropriately nearly every time.

I noticed that the problem there with lag and animation time seems to pop up more when they're further apart, obviously a balance thing.

Nana doesn't help with defense. You can't really intentionally use Nana as a shield, because she sticks behind you. Luma can be positioned as needed.

So, if I'm being grabbed and held by someone I can't tap the A button to jab with the nearby Nana and break free? A good Ice Climber player can use Nana defensively in a number of ways.

And Rosalina's recovery is not effected at all by Luma. Her recovery move is a Launch Star.

When I used her Launch Star move, the Luma circled around Rosalina. I assume it had a hitbox to it, but no-one was ever really near me when I used it to test if that's true or not. I'm just assuming that'll be the case.

Nope, that part of her trailer was just a choreographed trick. The animation Rosalina performed while "summoning" the Luma was one of her taunts. This has already been confirmed by people who have tried Rosalina at E3 and Smash fest. And no, the taunt itself does not summon Luma. As of the E3 demo, Luma's cannot be manually summoned, they automatically respawn with Rosalina if she is KO'd before the Luma spawns, or in 8 seconds otherwise.

I was there. I played her. All you have to do to summon another Luma after one dies is press B. There's obviously a lag there to balance it out, but a couple of guys saying 'hurr i press b and it dun do nuffin' isn't 'confirmed'. The lag is about three, four seconds or so, which is a long time in a match. Otherwise, yeah, Luma reappears after about eight seconds.

Another point worth noting about Luma is that after it is launched, it has to actually land on the ground before it can attack again. It can't move side to side or attack out of it's after-launch state.

Interesting. I didn't notice this since it was too chaotic. So she's even worse than originally assumed? What point is there in ever letting the Luma leave your side? Seems all the benefits come from having the Luma with you.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

This thread sure has gotten active lately. Anyway, try not to beat up dead horses with any arguments.

 

[Deleted member]

As someone who had a chance to play Rosalina on the 3DS during Smashfest, Rosalina and Luma are surprisingly in synch with one another when they're together. You really won't even notice a difference. You can segue into other attacks and Luma follows up appropriately nearly every time.

Ummm... I have no opinion on this argument, but isn't that impossible? Rosalina wasn't playable in the 3DS demo.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Ummm... I have no opinion on this argument, but isn't that impossible? Rosalina wasn't playable in the 3DS demo.

That day was a bit of a whirlwind, so I might have just mistaken the versions. I played a lot of the 3DS version, though. It's not as bad as I figured it was going to be.

EDIT: Yeah, I think you're right, I thought it was the 3DS version. I meant the Wii U version. My bad.

 

[DJ3DS]

The comparisons to Ice Climbers aren't really surprising given that the two both rely on a dual character mechanic. Indeed, that is to a large extent why I am excited about playing as Rosaluma (although as a character she certainly isn't undeserving). However, Rosaluma does have some things distinguishing it from ICs in terms of Mechanics. In particular, you have the new technique of using the Luma as a projectile shield (Something not really feasible with ICs) and much more independence with positioning of Luma, making "team combos" (Such as the one used in the reveal trailer) feasible. Finally, the presumable lack of a CG game would make Rosaluma play significantly differently in practice without considering anything else.

Moreover, even if you consider the mechanic the same, I don't see how Rosaluma and ICs can be considered clones. It doesn't take a lot of gameplay videos to realise that Rosaluma's moveset feels quite distinct. Rosaluma's recovery seems more vertically limited (But still viable vertically with Luma gone), their projectiles are very different, and gravitational pull is very different from anything ICs have. Their aerials/tilts/smashes seem distinct enough to me as well. Even if I accepted your premise that they are the exact same mechanic, there is no way that I can believe the argument that Ness/Lucas, Fox/Falco are not clones but Rosaluma/ICs are.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Even if I accepted your premise that they are the exact same mechanic, there is no way that I can believe the argument that Ness/Lucas, Fox/Falco are not clones but Rosaluma/ICs are.

I used the word 'clone' extremely lightly. I didn't mean it in the traditional sense, since they don't share moves with the Ice Climbers, just the fundamentals of their gameplay.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

http://smashboards.com/threads/kid-icarus-rep-necessary.358482/

http://smashboards.com/threads/why-was-greninja-chosen-over-the-other-starters.352111/

Boo.

Toad is not a character. Toads are a race. There was an unnamed Toad who starred in Wario's Woods, and you could play as him in Super Mario Bros 2 USA. However, in Super Mario Bros 2 USA, he was just a stand in for a character from the original Doki Doki Panic game, since he had a similar design to that character, and the original game was Arabian themed, as is Toad, so he fit the world of that game, since they couldn't re-tool it to be the Mushroom Kingdom.

Then you can play as Toads in a few multiplayer platformers, but it's still a nameless one in each case.
And then we have the Captain Toad game coming out.

In reality, the only game I count here is the Captain Toad game, since Captain Toad is a specific character, with an actually defined personality. But he debuted in Galaxy, and certainly isn't the first thing people would think of to represent Galaxy (I'm foreshadowing, you see), and his new game has only been announced. The fact Toads are playable in the main series platformers is just laziness on Nintendo's part, and the one in 3D World is literally only there so they could say "aaaaaay it's like Super Mario Bros 2 in the US". I honestly don't think anyone would have cared if Toad wasn't in the game, and the fourth player was just Rosalina, who was in the game anyway.

Aren't Yoshis technically a race too? I think you underestimate Toad's fanbase if you believe no one would've cared if he wasn't in 3D World or whatnot.

edit: Ninja'd on that part apparently.

 

[TurnUp]

I honestly think that including her and Luma was really weird first of all.

But after seeing the first trailer the whole thing made sense, giving Mario Galaxy a true rep because of how revolutionary the game actually was and how great it is. And her playstyle feels inspired to Mario Kart Wii, in the way she had a Luma just following her around the whole thing, but built off of that and making Luma a part of her fighting moves rather than a cosmetic touch.

Adding a puppeteer character alone makes her character worth keeping, and there's not many other characters that can actually spawn a new 'puppet' right out of thin air like Rosalina and have it be a different entity each time (there are multiple lumas and they can be the same color or not and still be different Lumas than the one she had on the last stock. And at this point everyone basically recognizes her so there's no problem with that.

Rosalina really isn't that new nowadays anyway especially compared to Greninja.
She's turning 7 years old this year from her main appearance in Galaxy

I gotta say though if Rosalina is really here to stay how will they keep her relevant other than maybe a galaxy 3, she wasn't even too relevant in 2. I can see Nintendo making her own game but unfortunately that will mean she'll get her own game before even Bowser has got his own starring role (not counting BiS of course).

 

[ChikoLad]

Being the main boss of his own game along with being a boss in several of the main games adds up though. And no, he certainly was not a "mini-boss", he was a boss just like the others in both games. Bowser interacted with him in Sunshine and that already establishes the character and more so than 90% of the other Mario characters. And since when does Bowser's interaction with Junior matter anyways especially in the case of Smash? And while he is definitely another Koopling, he is clearly the leader and it shows in cutscenes. There's nothing wrong with that.

He's not really the main boss in Sunshine either. You chase him around a bit while he is Shadow Mario in most "fights" with him.

And being a boss in multiple games doesn't really add up either. A boss is simply a challenge within the game. If you're a boss AND an important character, and the character is an important part of the boss fight, that's noteworthy. See Palutena for reference. Apart from story significance in Sunshine (which is very flimsy as it is - Sunshine is often mocked, while Super Mario Galaxy's story elements helped the game be considered an artistic masterpiece).

And any of this matters why when we have Yoshi who is also an amalgam? Also, there is a toad who is just named Toad just like there is a Yoshi who is just named Yoshi.

Yes it does. Yoshi is not comparable, as that's it's own series now, like Wario, and Yoshi in Smash represents that.
And there isn't a Toad that's just called Toad, they refer to them as Toad because it's an un-identifiable Toad. Hence, people have to refer to the two Toads in NSMB as Blue Toad and Yellow Toad - because they don't have real names.

Role =/= Popularity

Not absolutely, but it is the cause of Rosalina's popularity, which is immense now.

I fully agree with this part right here but with Toon Link and to a lesser but similar degree ZSS and Sheik still on the roster anything is possible.
I'm not sure you can make a comparison for Magnus as you played him for 1 chapter in the entire game and he was absent in all but 3 chapters and there were at least 3 other characters that showed up in practically the entire game. Not only that but there's really not much you can do with Magnus because he's only been shown to do 2 things in his game both of which are generic attacks (kicks and sword swings). Comparing that to Toad who has plenty of things he can use as attacks makes that argument kind of mute. Yes, Toad may not be as memorable from a story point but from a nostalgia point, he beats her pretty easily.

Toon Link is a different character to Link. While I wish his moveset was different, I don't mind his presence, as he is literally a different person with a different background, and exists at a different point in the Zelda timeline than TP Link, and has a distinctly different personality. Paper Mario is literally just Mario drawn differently.

And I give ZSS a pass because, to be perfectly fair, Metroid doesn't have any really well known or popular characters, besides Samus, Dark Samus, and the big bosses like Kraid and Ridley (DON'T BRING HIS SIZE ARGUMENT HERE). While the Hunters from Metroid Prime: Hunters would easily work moveset wise...nobody really knows who they are. And ZSS looks SO different to Power Suit Samus, to the point that someone who didn't know Samus was a girl could mistake her for a separate character to ZSS at first glance. I know it doesn't happen anymore, but Samus does look completely different as ZSS regardless, and feels completely different. There's also the fact that Metroid, as a series, is about isolation - so it's only fitting that Samus represents her series all by her lonesome.

And Sheik was ORIGINALLY designed as the same character slot as Zelda, since they are the same person. The only reason Sheik has her own slot now is for game balance reasons, same with ZSS. I'm sure most people would rather keep these characters than have them kicked off the roster, just because of transformations being gone for game balance reasons. Paper Mario really doesn't need to be added. ZSS and Sheik have their own slots as a side effect of the decision to remove transformations. It's basically a compromise.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

"Metroid as a series is about isolation"

Um, yeah. The last few games have deviated more and more from that formula, so it's not really applicable anymore as a reason for Samus to remain the only Metroid character on the roster, if it ever was to begin with.

 

[ChikoLad]

"Metroid as a series is about isolation"

Um, yeah. The last few games have deviated more and more from that formula, so it's not really applicable anymore as a reason for Samus to remain the only Metroid character on the roster, if it ever was to begin with.

It wasn't so much a reason, so much as it was another perspective on the matter.

Other M was probably the only one that heavily exposed you to loads of characters outside of the base. Even in the Prime games, you were exploring mysterious planets alone. And the characters you were with were often extremely minor.

Should also be noted that isolation does not necessarily mean "the only life form around".

 

[ihskeyp]

@ ChunkyBeef Calling Rosalina a 'more elaborate clone' is completely wrong. Yes, Ice Climbers and Rosaluma both use team work.... That doesn't make them clones, or 'more elaborate clones'... At all. They have COMPLETELY different movesets. And, ICs and Rosaluma use completely different mechanics, too.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Eh, fair enough.

Prime Hunters wasn't isolated in the sense that you would always have those fellow bounty hunters around after you and you'd know where to expect them. Prime 3 for pretty much the same reasons, in addition to that Aurora Unit always talking to and guiding you, so you were never really isolated, and of course Other M with Adam and his squad drove isolation out the window even more.

But yeah, I guess that's enough off-topicness there from me.


I'm all for defending why Rosalina was a deserving and sensible addition, but must we belittle every other Mario candidate? I don't really care for Bowser Jr, Waluigi, and the like either but still. :u

 

[Burigu]

I honestly think that including her and Luma was really weird first of all.

But after seeing the first trailer the whole thing made sense, giving Mario Galaxy a true rep because of how revolutionary the game actually was and how great it is. And her playstyle feels inspired to Mario Kart Wii, in the way she had a Luma just following her around the whole thing, but built off of that and making Luma a part of her fighting moves rather than a cosmetic touch.

Adding a puppeteer character alone makes her character worth keeping, and there's not many other characters that can actually spawn a new 'puppet' right out of thin air like Rosalina and have it be a different entity each time (there are multiple lumas and they can be the same color or not and still be different Lumas than the one she had on the last stock. And at this point everyone basically recognizes her so there's no problem with that.

Rosalina really isn't that new nowadays anyway especially compared to Greninja.
She's turning 7 years old this year from her main appearance in Galaxy

I gotta say though if Rosalina is really here to stay how will they keep her relevant other than maybe a galaxy 3, she wasn't even too relevant in 2. I can see Nintendo making her own game but unfortunately that will mean she'll get her own game before even Bowser has got his own starring role (not counting BiS of course).

You don't need your own game to stay relevant, as long as Rosalina keeps coming back on the Mario series and spin offs, she is not going anywhere, I am not opposing to Rosalina or Bowser games, but saying Rosalina needs her own game to stay "relevant" is flawed, and Bowser being the main antagonist of the Mario AND recurring villian in the Yoshi series doesn't really need a game.

I find this claims that different characters of a series MUST have his/her own game, really odd and in some cases not well funded, some characters are good just appearing in their original series, because they already fullfil a role quite well. Characters like Yoshi and Captain Toad got their series going because they bring new ideas gameplay wise, the target system in the Yoshi series not found in the main games and the success that the minigames of Captain Toad, which gameplay is also different from the main series helped them, so we aren't getting new games for other characters unless they want to bring a new game mechanic which isn't already represented in the main series (and only if that new role can't be fullfiled by Mario). This also include Luigi, Wario and DK series

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm all for defending why Rosalina was a deserving and sensible addition, but must we belittle every other Mario candidate? I don't really care for Bowser Jr, Waluigi, and the like either but still. :u

I'm not so much belittling them as much as I am just stating exactly what they are. Problem is, people have put them on a pedestal that they never really deserved to begin with.

And for the record, I feel Bowser. Jr is a character with a lot of potential, but unfortunately, Miyamoto hates having a story in games.

Heck, to me, Rosalina serves as a symbol that Miyamoto isn't always right, since he tried to not let Koizumi give her a backstory, but it was put in the game anyway, and people loved it! :V

 

[Burigu]

I'm not so much belittling them as much as I am just stating exactly what they are. Problem is, people have put them on a pedestal that they never really deserved to begin with.

And for the record, I feel Bowser. Jr is a character with a lot of potential, but unfortunately, Miyamoto hates having a story in games.

Heck, to me, Rosalina serves as a symbol that Miyamoto isn't always right, since he tried to not let Koizumi give her a backstory, but it was put in the game anyway, and people loved it! :V

On that note Miyamoto is partially responsable for the failure of Paper Mario Sticker Star, it was him how get rid of all the new characters minus that crown thing that helps you, so yeah Miyamoto can be wrong sometimes.

On the Bowser Jr thing we rated him yesterday and part of my low want rating for him is that he has lost his uniqueness and character from Sunshine, and even lost the Shadow Mario transformation gimmick

 

[josh bones]

Rosalina is more like olimar than ice climbers by far imo

 

[TurnUp]

You don't need your own game to stay relevant, as long as Rosalina keeps coming back on the Mario series and spin offs, she is not going anywhere, I am not opposing to Rosalina or Bowser games, but saying Rosalina needs her own game to stay "relevant" is flawed, and Bowser being the main antagonist of the Mario AND recurring villian in the Yoshi series doesn't really need a game.

I find this claims that different characters of a series MUST have his/her own game, really odd and in some cases not well funded, some characters are good just appearing in their original series, because they already fullfil a role quite well. Characters like Yoshi and Captain Toad got their series going because they bring new ideas gameplay wise, the target system in the Yoshi series not found in the main games and the success that the minigames of Captain Toad, which gameplay is also different from the main series helped them, so we aren't getting new games for other characters unless they want to bring a new game mechanic which isn't already represented in the main series (and only if that new role can't be fullfiled by Mario). This also include Luigi, Wario and DK series

I'm not saying Rosalina needs a game, I'm just saying: will being an unlockable character in Mario games all she will be from now on? If Rosalina gets a spot in Smash Bros but only stars in Mario Kart and Party from then on, she's no longer much different from Daisy's position then which is Mario Spinoffs only. Hell Rosalina barely stars in spinoffs as it is. She's basically the Mario Galaxy rep that's all.

I'm saying basically everyone in the Mario rep family (meaning originated from Mario mainline games or branched out) basically has major starring roles in their own games continuity, Rosalina is the odd one out only being an aid to Mario in one game as well as an unlockable in another main game.

Though she will inevitably be in Smash Bros from now on, and I'm sure she'll be featured in many Mario games to come.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not saying Rosalina needs a game, I'm just saying: will being an unlockable character in Mario games all she will be from now on? If Rosalina gets a spot in Smash Bros but only stars in Mario Kart and Party from then on, she's no longer much different from Daisy's position then which is Mario Spinoffs only. Hell Rosalina barely stars in spinoffs as it is. She's basically the Mario Galaxy rep that's all.

I'm saying basically everyone in the Mario rep family (meaning originated from Mario mainline games or branched out) basically has major starring roles in their own games continuity, Rosalina is the odd one out only being an aid to Mario in one game as well as an unlockable in another main game.

Though she will inevitably be in Smash Bros from now on, and I'm sure she'll be featured in many Mario games to come.

Rosalina IS the star of the original Galaxy. You may not play as her, but most of the plot and story elements in the game revolve around her.

 

[Gravitational23]

Wow this thread is becoming a war guys. You all make good points but can we just calm down.

 

[Xavier :D]

@ ChikoLad I absolutely respect your love for Rosalina. I salute to you.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I just had to post this clip in response to the original question.

 

[ChikoLad]

@ ChikoLad I absolutely respect your love for Rosalina. I salute to you.

Genuinely caring a lot about a character can be a burden, honestly. Especially if it's Rosalina.

It also makes intelligent discussion about her quite difficult, since people will assume everything I say is biased since I have her as my avatar or whatever. And while it's true in some cases, I regulate my bias, and I assure that it does not come in when discussing the character from a gameplay or "necessity" standpoint.

 

[praline]

Rosalina was the only viable choice for a 5th Mario character.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Feel like there is a ton of Rosalina bias here...

 

[Xavier :D]

Feel like there is a ton of Rosalina bias here...

Of course there is! This is the Rosalina Sub-Forum after all

 

[Super Writer]

Thought I would expand on my post now that the topic has switched over to priorities, so...

I never got the mindset about characters stealing other character's slots. Sure it sometimes applies when it's two nearly identical ones, but for the most part it's a series of many variables to consider, often including relevancy and popularity. Rosalina came from one of Nintendo's best games in years, she clearly has popularity backing her up, and repeated appearances in and outside of spin-off games have technically kept her relevant, even if her roles are nothing more than cameos. Really, her inclusion in 3D World as Nintendo's surprise reveal and paid DLC character in Mario Golf kind of showed exactly where they were going with the character, they know she has enough of a following to throw her weight around to cash in, which is both kind of a good and bad thing depending on how it's done. Though honestly I still think Baby Rosalina in Mario Kart 8 was pushing it. But at least she's better than Pink Gold Peach...

Long story short, the planets aligned just in time for roster decision in Sm4sh, excluding 3rd parties, she's one of the most obvious. Same could be said of Little Mac, a bland looking assist trophy in Brawl, gets a new game and new found popularity and suddenly he's a huge candidate.

Oh and I'm just saying, had Waluigi, Toad or Bowser Jr. been playable instead, this thread would suddenly be about them, and all the Rosalina fanboys would be the ones acting like they stole her spot and joining the two rejected character's fanboys. Except me, I wanted those characters to be playable. Except Bowser Jr., he's alright.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I don't mind Rosalina. I'm ok ya with her it's just certain die hard Rosalina fans really annoy the **** out of me.

They say nonsense like
"She was a shoe-in in Smash 4"
"Is always knew she was gonna be playable"

Seriously that's a big load of horse crap.

I'm a rosalina fan but even I knew she didn't have much of a chance because she was too new and wasn't recognizable like toad! waluigi or bowser jr.

I hoped she could be playable in smash 4 but I wasn't assuming she was a shoe-in for the fact that she's barely appeared in any games.

She's playable and I'm happy with it. My brother loves rosalina so that makes me happy that he got his character in smash.

But just some rosalina fans are annoying with their weird addiction to her. " She's the best Mario character ever cause she has personality! "It just gets annoying and stale after hearing that many times after awhile.

 

[Gravitational23]

I don't mind Rosalina. I'm ok ya with her it's just certain die hard Rosalina fans really annoy the **** out of me.

They say nonsense like
"She was a shoe-in in Smash 4"
"Is always knew she was gonna be playable"

Seriously that's a big load of horse crap.

I'm a rosalina fan but even I knew she didn't have much of a chance because she was too new and wasn't recognizable like toad! waluigi or bowser jr.

I hoped she could be playable in smash 4 but I wasn't assuming she was a shoe-in for the fact that she's barely appeared in any games.

She's playable and I'm happy with it. My brother loves rosalina so that makes me happy that he got his character in smash.

But just some rosalina fans are annoying with their weird addiction to her. " She's the best Mario character ever cause she has personality! "It just gets annoying and stale after hearing that many times after awhile.

Most Rosalina fans never said she was a shoe-in and people said she was the best Mario character because she the only character that has backstory in the whole Mario franchise.

 

[DJ3DS]

I'm a rosalina fan but even I knew she didn't have much of a chance because she was too new and wasn't recognizable like toad! waluigi or bowser jr.

But just some rosalina fans are annoying with their weird addiction to her. " She's the best Mario character ever cause she has personality! "It just gets annoying and stale after hearing that many times after awhile.

Toad has seniority+recognisability but then you have to subscribe to the theory that he would make an interesting character and be taken out of Peach's move, and is not an argument that needs having here except to say that not everyone believes Toad had a chance at all.

Waluigi was a pipe dream in my opinion due to arguments that have likely been had over and over. However, one point I haven't seen raised is that Waluigi + Bowser Jr have been pipped to roster slots by Rosalina before in Mario Kart 7, before she had a playable appearance in a main series platformer! Otherwise Bowser Jr seems like a realistic alternative that could have happened to me.

 

[ChikoLad]

Long story short, the planets aligned just in time for roster decision in Sm4sh, excluding 3rd parties, she's one of the most obvious. Same could be said of Little Mac, a bland looking assist trophy in Brawl, gets a new game and new found popularity and suddenly he's a huge candidate.

Oh and I'm just saying, had Waluigi, Toad or Bowser Jr. been playable instead, this thread would suddenly be about them, and all the Rosalina fanboys would be the ones acting like they stole her spot and joining the two rejected character's fanboys. Except me, I wanted those characters to be playable. Except Bowser Jr., he's alright.

Well the Smash 4 roster was finalised a couple of years back, according to Sakurai, so I really think Rosalina's appearance in 3D World and Mario Golf, and her being the poster girl for MK8 had nothing to do with her Smash inclusion. I think it all had to do with her announcement timing, but not her inclusion. Sakurai has always said that he makes his addition based on what new abilities the character could bring to the table, and how they can add to the game's atmosphere. And Rosalina checks both of those boxes (she's a space goddess, so she can do all sorts of things, and she is a character with a very well fleshed out personality and backstory, which was particularly poignant, so she was a nice poignant figure to add to the game - plus, her motherly nature goes well with a lot of the younger characters on the roster).

And sorry, but I don't think Rosalina fans would be getting upset and picking fights if she wasn't included in the game. Pretty much anyone who wanted Rosalina saw her as a "closet want", as in, they didn't really talk about how much they wanted the character, because they weren't confident about how many people wanted Rosalina or even liked her. I've wanted her since the Brawl days, yet I never told anyone until she was revealed for Smash 4. Rosalina fans were just very reclusive and reserved for the past few years, and only really started "coming out" after her appearance in 3D World (since her announcement was actually a selling point of the game for many, myself included). As for why they had that attitude, I can only guess it's because of outspoken Daisy, Waluigi, Bowser. Jr, and Toad fans, who are are very obnoxious and loud about how they want the characters in the game. Really the only outspoken Rosalina fans, for the most part, were those on sites like Rule 34, and, well, that was for a totally specific reason.....

I honestly think Rosalina's fanbase is the healthiest out of all of the characters in the Mario franchise, along with Luigi and Bowser - they aren't overly demanding, but they are very good at selling the character. Then you look at Toad, Waluigi, and Daisy fans and they pretty much just say "THEY'RE OLD AND HAVE BEEN IN LOADS OF PARTY GAMES, BEST CHARACTER EVAR, SMASH IS 0/10 WITHOUT THEM", for the most part.