Well, Little Mac in 4Glory mode won't be so tough anymore. . .

[Deleted member]

Nah, if you try to balance the game by buffing everybody, you end up with Project M's "balance". Smash 4 did the right thing making everybody pretty good but nobody ridiculous.

If you buff everyone, you get Brawl Minus.

 

[Engage]

Nah, if you try to balance the game by buffing everybody, you end up with Project M's "balance". Smash 4 did the right thing making everybody pretty good but nobody ridiculous.

I actually agree here, but let's not bring other Smash projects into this, as it'll cause commotion. Smash 4 is fine the way it is, just find a way to beat someone else. Check out the youtuber ZeRo, the smash tourny player.

If you buff everyone, you get Brawl Minus.

I agree with you both, but again don't want to cause commotion. In Smash 4 I did look at a "tier list" recently, and it made me laugh. Smash 4 has no 'tier list' yet, really? Until the gamecube controller is in the hands of the professionals and they can finally test a character to their limits, from DACUS to "tricks" like Bowser's new "Clawdash".

 

[PCHU]

Nah, if you try to balance the game by buffing everybody, you end up with Project M's "balance". Smash 4 did the right thing making everybody pretty good but nobody ridiculous.

Did I ever say I wanted everyone to be ridiculous?
I'd prefer for people to take apart my individual points and tell me why they're wrong before redirecting the message of my post completely, that way everyone (myself included) learns something.

That being said, I still believe that although a lot of the cast does pretty well against each other, projectiles are a huge part of the game, and some characters are just awful at approaching because of them.
The ability to destroy/block projectiles with tilts is missing, as is the ability to reflect projectiles with powershield, which you could argue that it's because powershielding was made easier, but why not create a dual-window (a larger one for the instant block and a 3-frame window for the reflect) shield?
It also seems like, generally speaking, they're also a lot larger than they've previously been (which is oddly the case in Mario Kart as well...), so characters without a solid way to either negate or evade these are at a large disadvantage, I'd argue even larger than before due to there being a lot more hitstun on projectiles now.

Most of the time, the only time the game feels relatively even/fun is when people are actually fighting me rather than camping.
D3 vs Rosalina is a completely different story, since you just have to be on point with your spacing to get past her hitboxes, but it's more interesting to face her than Villager, who can both camp and negate any attempts at camping him back.
Gimped mobility/high startup/endlag, low priority, and poor range are relatively large issues in the balance of offensive play vs defensive play, but if we only want to look at the "better characters", I don't suppose it's as much of a problem because they actually have tools to get in and get out.

I'd also like to point out that you main Yoshi, who is able to deal with most everyone due to his super armor on double jump, relatively safe aerials, fantastic aerial mobility (and mobility in general), and decent range/hitboxes on his KO moves (which aren't limited to his smashes).
He's more than possible to overcome in melee combat with some smart movement (it's easier for those that have good movement, but even so, it's possible) and decent reads/spacing, but once you throw eggs into the mix, it gets pretty difficult.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Honestly, If Mac's Up B in the air has an increase in height and Side B in the air has an increase vertically, even juuuuusssttt slightly an and leave him be, I will be happy
Also, plz don't nerf Nair. Its like the best thing ever (This is all coming from a Mac main, btw)

 

[ellord]

I know what dashdancing is, and i tell you do you know how fast is his rolling? It replace this advanced thecnique.

Yeah, he's balanced, you just repead what I said. But I keep saying he's like the brawl Ike or kirby.

 

[Kinslayer]

I read that article as well, but it never once mentioned any details on who is getting nerfed or buffed. Read it again, and read it more carefully please.

If anything, this just shows that Little Mac takes a bit more skill to use effectively, and he is not as beginner friendly as some people think.

He actually is pretty beginner friendly in a lot of ways.lol being able to ko at 30 percent with a moves that goes through shield, has little start up, and he builds from winning or losing is one. His armor is insane and makes it to where he he doesn't turely have to play footsies and the times when he does he never clashes he just goes through you due to armor, His smashes have smash amounts of recovery (which I find acceptable for what he is), he is extremely easy to punish dodge rollers with and get a lot of dmage while doing it, his jab can easily rack up 20+ percent.

As a person who main little Mac I can admit he is absurd and is pretty easy to get a grasp on

 

[rabbit.soaring]

I know what dashdancing is, and i tell you do you know how fast is his rolling? It replace this advanced thecnique.

Yeah, he's balanced, you just repead what I said. But I keep saying he's like the brawl Ike or kirby.

But in your last post, you said, "this dashdancing" like you didn't know what it was. Or was that just me lol? Anyways, rolling cannot replace dashdancing. Rolling always travels a set distance, can be punished in lagless(tournament) matches, and being faster makes them a bit harder to punish, not anywhere near impossible. Every character in the game(except maybe Jiggs?) benefits from the techniques in the link I posted. The OP literally says that Little Mac benefits most from this technique. I. didn't repeat what you just said. If you'd bother to read any of my responses, and maybe the link I posted(seriously, this is good stuff, read it), you'd understand that I was arguing against your claim that Little Mac requires no skill to play, and your implication that Little Mac can't be used competitively at a higher level of play. Brawl Ike was not easy to play, and Brawl Kirby was not easy to play. Don't disrespect characters you know nothing about.

He actually is pretty beginner friendly in a lot of ways.lol being able to ko at 30 percent with a moves that goes through shield, has little start up, and he builds from winning or losing is one. His armor is insane and makes it to where he he doesn't turely have to play footsies and the times when he does he never clashes he just goes through you due to armor, His smashes have smash amounts of recovery (which I find acceptable for what he is), he is extremely easy to punish dodge rollers with and get a lot of dmage while doing it, his jab can easily rack up 20+ percent.

As a person who main little Mac I can admit he is absurd and is pretty easy to get a grasp on

Mac loses all his meter's charge when he get KO'd, and it's unlikely that he'll get more than one a stock. A few good hits will also take away KO punch, and beginners will likely have a difficult time landing it on a cautious foe. He has armor on his smashes execution, not on their startup, he can be hit out of them, and he does want to play footsies as Ftilt is a much safer option that any of his smashes. Also why would he clash on a smash attack? That's stupid. I'm not sure what "smash amounts of recovery" is, could you elaborate? Of course he can punish dodge rollers, every character in the game can, he's just meant to do it better because he's LM. Yeah, his jab does a lot of damage, but it's not like he can gimp you or anything. He has to kill somehow. If you really mained Little Mac, you would understand that against a skilled player who can take advantage of his weaknesses, he's not anywhere near absurd or easy to get a grasp on.

 

[ellord]

At higher level ike and kirby are weak. But you keep mistaking between beeing strong and beeing easy. Just give the controller to any beginner that never played any smash. Give him sonic then kirby. Even if sonic is overall stronger, he will manage better kirby because he float with low risk of self-destruction. This thing will mistake their general view of the game and think kirby is stronger. Same with little mac, begginner see him as a very strong character because he's good in what begginer do usually (spam rolling, smash, jab, don't use areal...) and thats why a lot of people report nerf on him but we all know they are wrong.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

At higher level ike and kirby are weak. But you keep mistaking between beeing strong and beeing easy. Just give the controller to any beginner that never played any smash. Give him sonic then kirby. Even if sonic is overall stronger, he will manage better kirby because he float with low risk of self-destruction. This thing will mistake their general view of the game and think kirby is stronger. Same with little mac, begginner see him as a very strong character because he's good in what begginer do usually (spam rolling, smash, jab, don't use areal...) and thats why a lot of people report nerf on him but we all know they are wrong.

Easy? Little Mac? Hello?
Little Mac is NOT easy at all. If he was an "easy" character, he would have the highest Win/Loss Ratio in For Glory. Of course you wouldn't know because CLEARLY rolling replaces wavedashing

even though it doesn't.

 

[Hayzie]

How does he NOT have the highest wins in For Glory? That character is seriously OP. Free K.O. plus crazy knockback. 1 simple platform that he camps or hoards. His punches need to not knock you into the air so that when you get back he's right there waiting to do the same spam again. It'd be a lot better if it would just knock you back just a little bit or make you flinch a tad harder than Mega Man's eggs.

He's the one character who's special's get used the least. All you need is them punches. It's silly.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

At higher level ike and kirby are weak. But you keep mistaking between beeing strong and beeing easy. Just give the controller to any beginner that never played any smash. Give him sonic then kirby. Even if sonic is overall stronger, he will manage better kirby because he float with low risk of self-destruction. This thing will mistake their general view of the game and think kirby is stronger. Same with little mac, begginner see him as a very strong character because he's good in what begginer do usually (spam rolling, smash, jab, don't use areal...) and thats why a lot of people report nerf on him but we all know they are wrong.

Your analogy isn't really very good. If I was just starting Smash, I'd find Sonic easier to play, since I would spam specials a lot and spindash can get pretty hard to punish. Kirby also isn't particularly easy or hard to play factoring in the multiple jumps. A better analogy would be Sonic as the easy character and Wario as the difficult character, since Sonic can spam spindash against a bad player all day and Wario's strange movement make him difficult to just pick up and play. Sorry to correct, this sort of thing just really bothers me lol. I'm not mistaking between being strong and easy. There are plenty of characters that are strong but difficult to play as, and Little Mac is one of them. Brawl Metaknight was overpowered, but he wasn't easy to play. The thing is, Little Mac is very strong when played correctly, but can give the illusion that he requires no skill to play due to his power and relatively straightforward strategy to unskilled idiots with no idea what they're talking about people who aren't familiar with the character. He's not unskilled. If he didn't require skill to play, that would mean that anyone with a basic grasp of the controls could just pick him up and play very well, in which case, he wouldn't have the lowest win ratio in FG, regardless of being played by bad players. The fact that he does have the lowest win ratio just reaffirms that he requires skill to play, Sakurai is even acknowledging this by making the announcement. Arguing that a character requires no skill in a game based almost entirely on skill is stupid. Please stop.

How does he NOT have the highest wins in For Glory? That character is seriously OP. Free K.O. plus crazy knockback. 1 simple platform that he camps or hoards. His punches need to not knock you into the air so that when you get back he's right there waiting to do the same spam again. It'd be a lot better if it would just knock you back just a little bit or make you flinch a tad harder than Mega Man's eggs.

He's the one character who's special's get used the least. All you need is them punches. It's silly.

Please tell me that was sarcasm. I don't want to write another paragraph.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

How does he NOT have the highest wins in For Glory? That character is seriously OP. Free K.O. plus crazy knockback. 1 simple platform that he camps or hoards. His punches need to not knock you into the air so that when you get back he's right there waiting to do the same spam again. It'd be a lot better if it would just knock you back just a little bit or make you flinch a tad harder than Mega Man's eggs.

He's the one character who's special's get used the least. All you need is them punches. It's silly.

OP? Oh god, not THIS again

Also, of course he punches. Did you expect him to kick at all when his game is called "Punch-Out!!"?











Also, maybe because everyone except a few of them suck?

 

[Hayzie]

I struck a nerve, lol. Of course he punches, but in his games his opponent doesn't fly away, either. That's my point.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I struck a nerve, lol. Of course he punches, but in his games his opponent doesn't fly away, either. That's my point.

I don't think you know what means/ is supposed to be used for.
If I was pissed of and yelling at you in all caps, then that is legit salt. "I struck a nerve, lol"..... you didn't even...

 

[Engage]

Little Mac isn'... I won't even bother, why doesn't anyone here who's saying Little Mac is OP read the article I posted? It blatantly says: "Little Mac has the lowest win rate" FROM THE MAKER OF THE GAME HIMSELF.

He is not "overpowered", he is actually one of the hardest characters in the game to use, as landing a combo is hard, and landing a punish with him is a problem too as he can run right past an opponent, and his dash attack makes him slide a bit further too.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

How does he NOT have the highest wins in For Glory? That character is seriously OP. Free K.O. plus crazy knockback. 1 simple platform that he camps or hoards. His punches need to not knock you into the air so that when you get back he's right there waiting to do the same spam again. It'd be a lot better if it would just knock you back just a little bit or make you flinch a tad harder than Mega Man's eggs.

He's the one character who's special's get used the least. All you need is them punches. It's silly.

(a few posts later)
I struck a nerve, lol. Of course he punches, but in his games his opponent doesn't fly away, either. That's my point.

Well, ****. I've spent at least an hour on this thread already *sigh*. The least you could do is read my previous rants. So, KO punch. Not a huge deal. Hit him one or twice, depending on the character, and it disappears, and takes just the right amount of time to appear. Not overpowered, just a unique aspect of his character that makes him more threatening, some people have even gone so far as to say the only thing(Don't get me wrong, he's good without it, but I'd rather not go into that now). Of course his knockback is crazy. It's not like he can gimp you, unless you're Ganon. little mac Nair OP, nerf pls sackurai!!1! He literally has to smash you into oblivion. When you consider some characters can gimp LM below 30% with one metaphorical hand tied behind their metaphorical back, it's not really an issue. The FG stage advantage is a bit BS, I agree, but were you really expecting Sakurai to know what stages are considered Smashboards competitive and which ones aren't? Just think of it as MU practice. If the punches only knocked you back a little like Mega's lemons, how would he KO? Even with super armor, landing a slow kill move isn't easy, and Usmash and Dsmash aren't likely to seal a stock low enough for Mac to be a decent character. Knocking peeps high into the air is also necessary, LM needs to have a relentless offense in most matchups, as anyone with a projectile will play keep-away all day. LM is a punishy sort of character, so it makes sense that it's hard to return to neutral against him. Of course all you need is punches. He's a boxer. What, were you expecting him to breath fire? Don't be an idiot. And now for some logic, because we all know that's so effective.

@ Hayzie -

How does he NOT have the highest wins in For Glory?

----> Hayzie thinks LM should have the highest win rate in for glory, even when being used by bad players.
----> Therefore, Hayzie thinks that players with no skill should be able to win with LM against players with skill.
----> In other words, Hayzie thinks LM requires no skill to play.

@ ellord - No explanation necessary here. You've been arguing LM doesn't require skill this whole time.

So some videos:
Shockwave Smash 3DS - TLOC Denti(Shiek) vs Bwett(Little Mac)

Smash Bros 4 3DS - Awesome Little Mac Fight!

Dedede vs Little Mac Smash Bros 3DS

OK guys, so what I want you to do is watch both videos. The first one is an example of a competent Little Mac, and the next two are examples of not competent Little Macs. And yes, ellord, Bwett is rolling a lot in that first video. This was before dashdancing was discovered. If you saw a video of him now he would definitely be using it. So, basically what the two of you are saying is the equivalent of saying that Bwett and the random LM's in the second and third videos are playing at the same level. Now, answer this: Are Bwett and the LM's in the second and third video playing at the same level? Yes or no, please. And I know one of you will want to say this, so I'm going to say this now: choosing not to use a certain move(Jolt Haymaker) and having better reflexes and not making stupid mistakes or decisions are all considered skill.

Little Mac isn'... I won't even bother, why doesn't anyone here who's saying Little Mac is OP read the article I posted? It blatantly says: "Little Mac has the lowest win rate" FROM THE MAKER OF THE GAME HIMSELF.

He is not "overpowered", he is actually one of the hardest characters in the game to use, as landing a combo is hard, and landing a punish with him is a problem too as he can run right past an opponent, and his dash attack makes him slide a bit further too.

THANK YOU.

EDIT: I know I already posted two of these, but the Mac in this video was so terrible that I had to post this. Same question as before. The Pit wasn't even good. link

 

[Luggy]

Oh hey, it's a Little Mac Haters VS Little Mac supporter thread.

My opinion ? Little Mac isn't OP, in fact he's very hard to control and be good with. The problem is, people have thrown off by him because how different he is compared to other characters. He only has a ground game and no air game. However, before, everyone add at least a somewhat usable air game, and so weren't always on the ground. Little Mac "ain't an air fighter", wich means that he needs to always be on the ground. Essentially, a lot of people don't how to fight, since his ground game is amazing, but is the only thing he got. But here's the thing, people find ways to fight him, and it was simple : put him in the AIR. It's so obvious, even a beginner knows how to do it. And because Lil'Mac is mostly played by beginners, the character got the lowest wins of the game.

He's hard to control because he's not like a smash fighter. To play him, you have to play him like in Punch-Out, his own game. You need to dodge, counter and not getting hit, or else your going to go down quickly. A good Mac player knows that, he knows how to stay on the ground and don't always do the same thing, he instead have to read the opponent to strike back.

His K.O punch isn't as powerfull as we think, it can't OHKO when you are at 0% for example and is easy to get rid off. The reason why it so powerful is the player. That "ding-ding" can change the mindset of a player so fast and makes the punch even more powerful. But it's not OP. You can dodge it, you can make it go away or you can just ignore it, wich will pay off most of the time.

Finally, remember who is Little Mac : a normal human. Sure, he got an unnatural power, but he's just like us, bad in the air. He's a boxer from Brooklyn, only fights on the ground and trains everyday. Do you think it's easy to then go in a fight with Puffballs and Heroes of time ? No. The closest thing he fought back then was Donkey Kong, a giant ape with a tie. Do you think it's that easy to play Little Mac, to be Little Mac ? No. This is why he got the lowest wins in the game.
But people keeps whinning about him just because they don't know how to fight him. Just train and you'll see that your so called "OP" character isn't that strong.

And for mains of Mac, don't be ashame of your main. I've saw people quitting playing him because of his bad reputation.
Little Mac is the hardest character to master, the hardest to play and the hardest to get used to. He's truly the real fighter on the stage.

So in short : I'm not suprised. I'm just sad to see fools who keeps arguing about a character. Those conversations are useless and endless.

 

[Renegade65]

Man Little Mac is not OP, I actually am a lil pissed that he doesnt have any aerials!!! Everything he does besides jab and straight punches leave him unsafe and you and punish mos def. Then he has a hard time getting back onto the stage. You can knock him off and interrupt him on his way back in and he is pretty much over with just like Ike. If we didn't have the knock back that he has now he would really be a bad char. I dont wanna get into all the details. I like the character and fighting style!!

 

[Engage]

Oh hey, it's a Little Mac Haters VS Little Mac supporter thread.

My opinion ? Little Mac isn't OP, in fact he's very hard to control and be good with. The problem is, people have thrown off by him because how different he is compared to other characters. He only has a ground game and no air game. However, before, everyone add at least a somewhat usable air game, and so weren't always on the ground. Little Mac "ain't an air fighter", wich means that he needs to always be on the ground. Essentially, a lot of people don't how to fight, since his ground game is amazing, but is the only thing he got. But here's the thing, people find ways to fight him, and it was simple : put him in the AIR. It's so obvious, even a beginner knows how to do it. And because Lil'Mac is mostly played by beginners, the character got the lowest wins of the game.

He's hard to control because he's not like a smash fighter. To play him, you have to play him like in Punch-Out, his own game. You need to dodge, counter and not getting hit, or else your going to go down quickly. A good Mac player knows that, he knows how to stay on the ground and don't always do the same thing, he instead have to read the opponent to strike back.

His K.O punch isn't as powerfull as we think, it can't OHKO when you are at 0% for example and is easy to get rid off. The reason why it so powerful is the player. That "ding-ding" can change the mindset of a player so fast and makes the punch even more powerful. But it's not OP. You can dodge it, you can make it go away or you can just ignore it, wich will pay off most of the time.

Finally, remember who is Little Mac : a normal human. Sure, he got an unnatural power, but he's just like us, bad in the air. He's a boxer from Brooklyn, only fights on the ground and trains everyday. Do you think it's easy to then go in a fight with Puffballs and Heroes of time ? No. The closest thing he fought back then was Donkey Kong, a giant ape with a tie. Do you think it's that easy to play Little Mac, to be Little Mac ? No. This is why he got the lowest wins in the game.
But people keeps whinning about him just because they don't know how to fight him. Just train and you'll see that your so called "OP" character isn't that strong.

And for mains of Mac, don't be ashame of your main. I've saw people quitting playing him because of his bad reputation.
Little Mac is the hardest character to master, the hardest to play and the hardest to get used to. He's truly the real fighter on the stage.

So in short : I'm not suprised. I'm just sad to see fools who keeps arguing about a character. Those conversations are useless and endless.

I say that his K.O punch is not that fearsome as it's difficult to land, there are set ups to make it work though like a down tilt into the K.O punch, as that stops it completely from missing. But other than that, I agree, and I mean a lot of people in Smash are 'humans' though. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Shulk, Dr.Mario, Zero Suit Samus. It makes sense for Little Mac to have so much power though, as he's a boxer who's trained his whole life for the ringside and to be muscle toned for ground based combat.

Well, ****. I've spent at least an hour on this thread already *sigh*. The least you could do is read my previous rants. So, KO punch. Not a huge deal. Hit him one or twice, depending on the character, and it disappears, and takes just the right amount of time to appear. Not overpowered, just a unique aspect of his character that makes him more threatening, some people have even gone so far as to say the only thing(Don't get me wrong, he's good without it, but I'd rather not go into that now). Of course his knockback is crazy. It's not like he can gimp you, unless you're Ganon. little mac Nair OP, nerf pls sackurai!!1! He literally has to smash you into oblivion. When you consider some characters can gimp LM below 30% with one metaphorical hand tied behind their metaphorical back, it's not really an issue. The FG stage advantage is a bit BS, I agree, but were you really expecting Sakurai to know what stages are considered Smashboards competitive and which ones aren't? Just think of it as MU practice. If the punches only knocked you back a little like Mega's lemons, how would he KO? Even with super armor, landing a slow kill move isn't easy, and Usmash and Dsmash aren't likely to seal a stock low enough for Mac to be a decent character. Knocking peeps high into the air is also necessary, LM needs to have a relentless offense in most matchups, as anyone with a projectile will play keep-away all day. LM is a punishy sort of character, so it makes sense that it's hard to return to neutral against him. Of course all you need is punches. He's a boxer. What, were you expecting him to breath fire? Don't be an idiot. And now for some logic, because we all know that's so effective.

@ Hayzie -

----> Hayzie thinks LM should have the highest win rate in for glory, even when being used by bad players.
----> Therefore, Hayzie thinks that players with no skill should be able to win with LM against players with skill.
----> In other words, Hayzie thinks LM requires no skill to play.

@ ellord - No explanation necessary here. You've been arguing LM doesn't require skill this whole time.

So some videos:
Shockwave Smash 3DS - TLOC Denti(Shiek) vs Bwett(Little Mac)

Smash Bros 4 3DS - Awesome Little Mac Fight!

Dedede vs Little Mac Smash Bros 3DS

OK guys, so what I want you to do is watch both videos. The first one is an example of a competent Little Mac, and the next two are examples of not competent Little Macs. And yes, ellord, Bwett is rolling a lot in that first video. This was before dashdancing was discovered. If you saw a video of him now he would definitely be using it. So, basically what the two of you are saying is the equivalent of saying that Bwett and the random LM's in the second and third videos are playing at the same level. Now, answer this: Are Bwett and the LM's in the second and third video playing at the same level? Yes or no, please. And I know one of you will want to say this, so I'm going to say this now: choosing not to use a certain move(Jolt Haymaker) and having better reflexes and not making stupid mistakes or decisions are all considered skill.



THANK YOU.

EDIT: I know I already posted two of these, but the Mac in this video was so terrible that I had to post this. Same question as before. The Pit wasn't even good. link

Bwett is my inspiration to be a great Lil' Mac player in 6 days when I get the Wii U version. I'll be playing with a Wii U gamepad as well, so this will be a long but fun road for me.

 

[Luggy]

I say that his K.O punch is not that fearsome as it's difficult to land, there are set ups to make it work though like a down tilt into the K.O punch, as that stops it completely from missing. But other than that, I agree, and I mean a lot of people in Smash are 'humans' though. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Shulk, Dr.Mario, Zero Suit Samus. It makes sense for Little Mac to have so much power though, as he's a boxer who's trained his whole life for the ringside and to be muscle toned for ground based combat.

By human, I mean in real life. Mario isn't technically a human, Nintedo says he was a "Homo Nintendus". Basically, is too cartoony to be a normal human. But Samus and Shulk are human, that for sure.
But what I meant was how Little Mac is literally just a guy from our world. Do you think you could just jump in a smash game by yourself, with your real body and all that stuff. You'll get destroyed. Little Mac is a miracle in this game.

 

[ellord]

Your analogy isn't really very good. If I was just starting Smash, I'd find Sonic easier to play, since I would spam specials a lot and spindash can get pretty hard to punish. Kirby also isn't particularly easy or hard to play factoring in the multiple jumps. A better analogy would be Sonic as the easy character and Wario as the difficult character, since Sonic can spam spindash against a bad player all day and Wario's strange movement make him difficult to just pick up and play. Sorry to correct, this sort of thing just really bothers me lol. I'm not mistaking between being strong and easy. There are plenty of characters that are strong but difficult to play as, and Little Mac is one of them. Brawl Metaknight was overpowered, but he wasn't easy to play. The thing is, Little Mac is very strong when played correctly, but can give the illusion that he requires no skill to play due to his power and relatively straightforward strategy to unskilled idiots with no idea what they're talking about people who aren't familiar with the character. He's not unskilled. If he didn't require skill to play, that would mean that anyone with a basic grasp of the controls could just pick him up and play very well, in which case, he wouldn't have the lowest win ratio in FG, regardless of being played by bad players. The fact that he does have the lowest win ratio just reaffirms that he requires skill to play, Sakurai is even acknowledging this by making the announcement. Arguing that a character requires no skill in a game based almost entirely on skill is stupid. Please stop.



Please tell me that was sarcasm. I don't want to write another paragraph.

Everytime i give my 3ds to a kid. LM is the easiest they find, just try it by yourself. So, if LM is one the hardest character, then tell me how you explain so many player play him and why he's the most hated. Don't tell me it's because they can't use his weakness in their advantage. Most of beginner are better on ground than on air and this reason explain why they think him easy to play.

Edit : he has the lowest win ratio cuz a larger amount of beginner play him. He's definitively not the weakess character in game.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Everytime i give my 3ds to a kid. LM is the easiest they find, just try it by yourself. So, if LM is one the hardest character, then tell me how you explain so many player play him and why he's the most hated. Don't tell me it's because they can't use his weakness in their advantage. Most of beginner are better on ground than on air and this reason explain why they think him easy to play.

Edit : he has the lowest win ratio cuz a larger amount of beginner play him. He's definitively not the weakess character in game.

The reason why people play him so much and think he is an easy character to play as is simple: because he is a boxer, has Super Armour on half his moves, is REALLY fast, can easily spam rolls and the misconception that the Star KO Punch makes him the best character in the game.

Reason why hes the most hated character in FG? Because more than half of the Mac players are scrubs and get salty real easily, spam smash attacks and rolls and the fact that they go in too much or too quickly.

Whether you like it or no, Little Mac is a hard character to play. His weakness of having little (lol) to no air game at all makes him hard, because having an aerial is essential to have in smash and Mac doesn't have that. In order to make up for it, he has the best overall ground game in Smash 4.

Like @ Luggy said, he needs to played as if he was in his own game: Dodge, Counter-attack and not get hit to much, otherwise you WILL get rekt. Its as simple as that.

Also, the low win/loss ratio for mac makes him weak? Who the hell said that?!

@ Luggy Isn't Shulk a Homs or something like that?

 

[Luggy]

@ Luggy Isn't Shulk a Homs or something like that?

I don't know, I've never played Xenoblade.

 

[warriorman222]

@ Luggy Isn't Shulk a Homs or something like that?

My name is not Luggy but the answer is yes. There you go Shulk isn't human. In fact i'm pretty sure he's an alien. Where does it say that the game takes place on Earth? Yup, this memetic 18 year old id a 5'7" alien god.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

Everytime i give my 3ds to a kid. LM is the easiest they find, just try it by yourself. So, if LM is one the hardest character, then tell me how you explain so many player play him and why he's the most hated. Don't tell me it's because they can't use his weakness in their advantage. Most of beginner are better on ground than on air and this reason explain why they think him easy to play.

Edit : he has the lowest win ratio cuz a larger amount of beginner play him. He's definitively not the weakess character in game.

ellord, you've completely missed my point, I'm not going to justify this with an actual response until you read my post, and more importantly, answer my question.

Don't tell me it's because they can't use his weakness in their advantage.

Welp.

Edit : he has the lowest win ratio cuz a larger amount of beginner play him.

You've somehow managed to both repeat and contradict yourself in a single sentence.

 

[ellord]

Control + F, type "?". Nope, I don't find anything.

It's not a contradiction. If a larger amount of beginner and scrub play him, he will have lower ratio for sure.

 

[ellord]

Learning a single way to play a character. Me i don't see it harder. If he had areal + ground game. Now you just need to learn ground game and your fine.

Playing on ground wtih mac = easy
Playing on air with mac = you can't
It don't make it harder, just take out potential.

 

[warriorman222]

Control + F, type "?". Nope, I don't find anything.

It's not a contradiction. If a larger amount of beginner and scrub play him, he will have lower ratio for sure.

Yes, BUT beginners have an easier time playing him, yet they will lose a lot if you use him...
What you imply and what you are saying implies are different. You (maybe) mean that beginners will get rekt on FG. The sentence structure implies that scrubs will lose with him anywhere.

I do think that in a beginner vs beginner tier list, Little Mac would have his own tier miles away from Bowser and Sanic. Then Wario rots in last place for all the Bike SDs and stupid movements. In a perfect person vs perfect person list, Little mac would only be challenged for top by Rosalina and Shiek. But nobody is perfect. And nobody here excessively sucks. so pro vs pro scenario. Little Mac is solid High tier because he can't afford many mistakes but is a terror in the hands of someone who doesn;t make many A.K.A. the pros

 

[rabbit.soaring]

Control + F, type "?". Nope, I don't find anything.

It's not a contradiction. If a larger amount of beginner and scrub play him, he will have lower ratio for sure.
Learning a single way to play a character. Me i don't see it harder. If he had areal + ground game. Now you just need to learn ground game and your fine.

Playing on ground wtih mac = easy
Playing on air with mac = you can't
It don't make it harder, just take out potential.

Sigh. Reread your posts, and then my posts. There is a question mark. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

By the way, Kid Icarus for the NES has got some really catchy music. Really, really catchy.

EDIT: @ ellord - Try not to double post in the future. If you want to add something, just use the "edit" option.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Learning a single way to play a character. Me i don't see it harder. If he had areal + ground game. Now you just need to learn ground game and your fine.

Playing on ground wtih mac = easy
Playing on air with mac = you can't
It don't make it harder, just take out potential.

This comment confused me greatly. Why would you want to take out Mac's potential? He's basically a bad character if that happened

Also you can play with Mac in the air, its just REALLY difficult.... those Nairs tho

 

[Engage]

Yes, BUT beginners have an easier time playing him, yet they will lose a lot if you use him...
What you imply and what you are saying implies are different. You (maybe) mean that beginners will get rekt on FG. The sentence structure implies that scrubs will lose with him anywhere.

I do think that in a beginner vs beginner tier list, Little Mac would have his own tier miles away from Bowser and Sanic. Then Wario rots in last place for all the Bike SDs and stupid movements. In a perfect person vs perfect person list, Little mac would only be challenged for top by Rosalina and Shiek. But nobody is perfect. And nobody here excessively sucks. so pro vs pro scenario. Little Mac is solid High tier because he can't afford many mistakes but is a terror in the hands of someone who doesn;t make many A.K.A. the pros

Actually, that's the thing about Smash 4, no one sucks, seriously. It's all about learning to space, evade, perfect shield and grab set up depending on the character from all I know currently, the Wii U version aint out yet so we don't know 100% how to play the game 'perfectly' yet.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

This comment confused me greatly. Why would you want to take out Mac's potential? He's basically a bad character if that happened

Also you can play with Mac in the air, its just REALLY difficult.... those Nairs tho

Little Mac's Nairs are just too good. Probably my favorite move in the game.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

How does he NOT have the highest wins in For Glory? That character is seriously OP. Free K.O. plus crazy knockback. 1 simple platform that he camps or hoards. His punches need to not knock you into the air so that when you get back he's right there waiting to do the same spam again. It'd be a lot better if it would just knock you back just a little bit or make you flinch a tad harder than Mega Man's eggs.

He's the one character who's special's get used the least. All you need is them punches. It's silly.

-KO Punch is not free. As soon as the opponent hears that dinging noise, what's to stop them from knocking it out of you or running away the 13 or so seconds the punch stays active, or making you waste it by dodging at the right time?
-No one's camping any platform in this game, you can be hit from underneath for free every single time, or hit with a projectile should your character have one.
-Nerfing his normals/smashes to not knock the opponent into the air is a ludicrous proposition. The properties of Mac's entire moveset do not need a drastic change like that.

 

[Engage]

-KO Punch is not free. As soon as the opponent hears that dinging noise, what's to stop them from knocking it out of you or running away the 13 or so seconds the punch stays active, or making you waste it by dodging at the right time?
-No one's camping any platform in this game, you can be hit from underneath for free every single time, or hit with a projectile should your character have one.
-Nerfing his normals/smashes to not knock the opponent into the air is a ludicrous proposition. The properties of Mac's entire moveset do not need a drastic change like that.

That's like saying Mario shouldn't have a cape that reflects. People who complain about Mac's K.O punch are that low.

 

[Hayzie]

The cape is nothing like K.O

You can reflect at any time, even small projectiles. The person with the projectile also knows Mario has this ability so it's about mind-games and priority; it's a fair game. The K.O. punch is already set to do high damage with a higher chance to give you an instant K.O. even when you shield. You come in contact with your players almost most of the match to do damage so there's a better chance at landing that. You can still dodge a projectile reflected back at you.

-KO Punch is not free. As soon as the opponent hears that dinging noise, what's to stop them from knocking it out of you or running away the 13 or so seconds the punch stays active, or making you waste it by dodging at the right time?
-No one's camping any platform in this game, you can be hit from underneath for free every single time, or hit with a projectile should your character have one.
-Nerfing his normals/smashes to not knock the opponent into the air is a ludicrous proposition. The properties of Mac's entire moveset do not need a drastic change like that.

Any Omega stage is Little Mac's territory, he's not going anywhere else. That's camping; that boy doesn't gimp.

Just because he has specials, doesn't mean they're all that necessary no matter what the learning curve is. Two people going against each other with nearly identical skill levels only need to punch and side smash if one of them is Little Mac.

So he's good on the ground, but bad in the air. He's balanced. So what? Balance doesn't mean one isn't overpowered. We spend most of the match not in the air anyways. I'm gonna get this out of the way and say I can take out Little Mac on FG, probably half of the time, I usually don't see him as much as I used to, but he's still there.

Barely any frame lag & extreme knockback is constant punch spam and it works. I've rarely seen specials being used, because you just don't need it really.

Little Mac players are upset lol.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

The cape is nothing like K.O

You can reflect at any time, even small projectiles. The person with the projectile also knows Mario has this ability so it's about mind-games and priority; it's a fair game. The K.O. punch is already set to do high damage with a higher chance to give you an instant K.O. even when you shield. You come in contact with your players almost most of the match to do damage so there's a better chance at landing that. You can still dodge a projectile reflected back at you.

Any Omega stage is Little Mac's territory, he's not going anywhere else. That's camping; that boy doesn't gimp.

Just because he has specials, doesn't mean they're all that necessary no matter what the learning curve is. Two people going against each other with nearly identical skill levels only need to punch and side smash if one of them is Little Mac.

So he's good on the ground, but bad in the air. He's balanced. So what? Balance doesn't mean one isn't overpowered. We spend most of the match not in the air anyways. I'm gonna get this out of the way and say I can take out Little Mac on FG, probably half of the time, I usually don't see him as much as I used to, but he's still there.

Barely any frame lag & extreme knockback is constant punch spam and it works. I've rarely seen specials being used, because you just don't need it really.

Little Mac players are upset lol.

Upset about what, specifically?

 

[Hayzie]

Upset about what, specifically?

That I disagree with you. You had to facepalm me and everything.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

That I disagree with you. You had to facepalm me and everything.

Gr8 B8 M8 I R8 8/8
Not even upset m8
We twitch now

 

[Engage]

That I disagree with you. You had to facepalm me and everything.

Honestly, I wouldn't say Little Mac players are "mad", more over we're "annoyed" that people find complaints about him when most of the time we have to deal with people who just grab him into a down throw or back throw off an edge into a spike, and then what? we're safe with our "OP" recovery right? I can even link you to youtube videos of people ending For Glory matches against Little Macs in little to 1min - 1:30, and they usually taunt after doing so because they feel 'hhigh and mighty'. No, Little Mac is SO EASY to gimp, that he's all about playing like an actual boxer to me. You go in with your running, quick pivot side tilt jab or two quick pivot down tilts into a side tilt after those, and then you run to the other side of them, and bob & weave as I call it. Run in, shield, roll back (Weave), Run in, shield, roll forward (Bob). The K.O punch is NOTHING because it's difficult to land against a high skill and mindset player. They'll most of the time roll or side step it or do aerials with little to no lag on a character they know how to use, and since the K.O Punch in the air doesn't even K.O at all, no matter the %, even 999% in the air will not K.O, making them safe to attack with lagless almost aerials compared to Little Mac, and then, people think that Little Mac is OP cuz he can "roll out of anything", again, that's wrong. He's so easy to predict when he rolls because most Little Mac's who roll just roll backward or (weave), making it easy to go in, grab or aerial him,or even special (B attack) him.

All in all, Little Mac is not all that "OP" nor "annoying", he's just over used.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

That I disagree with you. You had to facepalm me and everything.

Disagreeing is fine, I can respect that. Would you mind answering the question I asked you? I'm going to assume you didn't ignore it purposely and just didn't notice. Hahaha.

Control + F, type "?". Nope, I don't find anything.

It's not a contradiction. If a larger amount of beginner and scrub play him, he will have lower ratio for sure.

OK, so clearly you won't see it unless I do spell it out for you, so:

Well, ****. I've spent at least an hour on this thread already *sigh*. The least you could do is read my previous rants. So, KO punch. Not a huge deal. Hit him one or twice, depending on the character, and it disappears, and takes just the right amount of time to appear. Not overpowered, just a unique aspect of his character that makes him more threatening, some people have even gone so far as to say the only thing(Don't get me wrong, he's good without it, but I'd rather not go into that now). Of course his knockback is crazy. It's not like he can gimp you, unless you're Ganon. little mac Nair OP, nerf pls sackurai!!1! He literally has to smash you into oblivion. When you consider some characters can gimp LM below 30% with one metaphorical hand tied behind their metaphorical back, it's not really an issue. The FG stage advantage is a bit BS, I agree, but were you really expecting Sakurai to know what stages are considered Smashboards competitive and which ones aren't? Just think of it as MU practice. If the punches only knocked you back a little like Mega's lemons, how would he KO? Even with super armor, landing a slow kill move isn't easy, and Usmash and Dsmash aren't likely to seal a stock low enough for Mac to be a decent character. Knocking peeps high into the air is also necessary, LM needs to have a relentless offense in most matchups, as anyone with a projectile will play keep-away all day. LM is a punishy sort of character, so it makes sense that it's hard to return to neutral against him. Of course all you need is punches. He's a boxer. What, were you expecting him to breath fire? Don't be an idiot. And now for some logic, because we all know that's so effective.

@ Hayzie -

----> Hayzie thinks LM should have the highest win rate in for glory, even when being used by bad players.
----> Therefore, Hayzie thinks that players with no skill should be able to win with LM against players with skill.
----> In other words, Hayzie thinks LM requires no skill to play.

@ ellord - No explanation necessary here. You've been arguing LM doesn't require skill this whole time.

So some videos:
Shockwave Smash 3DS - TLOC Denti(Shiek) vs Bwett(Little Mac)

Smash Bros 4 3DS - Awesome Little Mac Fight!

Dedede vs Little Mac Smash Bros 3DS

OK guys, so what I want you to do is watch both videos. The first one is an example of a competent Little Mac, and the next two are examples of not competent Little Macs. And yes, ellord, Bwett is rolling a lot in that first video. This was before dashdancing was discovered. If you saw a video of him now he would definitely be using it. So, basically what the two of you are saying is the equivalent of saying that Bwett and the random LM's in the second and third videos are playing at the same level. Now, answer this: Are Bwett and the LM's in the second and third video playing at the same level? Yes or no, please. And I know one of you will want to say this, so I'm going to say this now: choosing not to use a certain move(Jolt Haymaker) and having better reflexes and not making stupid mistakes or decisions are all considered skill.



EDIT: I know I already posted two of these, but the Mac in this video was so terrible that I had to post this. Same question as before. The Pit wasn't even good. link

Because I love you both, I've underlined, bolded, and changed the font color to a pretty pink so you idiots can't possibly miss it. How could you miss it in the first place? IT'S AN ENTIRE ****ING PARAGRAPH. Anyways, you can see that easily enough, right?

EDIT: To see the question you'll have to click the part that says, "click to expand".