-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Weekly SBR Character Discussion: Wolf
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
I like Wolf. Once you get past his quirky motions and get a good feel for his range and speed, he has some excellent spacing abilities.
I play him occasionally in my spare time, but I haven't devoted too many resources to coming up with tactics etc. But in most of the matches with him, just playing by sight works well enough. Bring out the jabs for disrupting up close, use lasers to force proper position, and then just know how to keep them off-balance to connect with a fsmash or usmash.
That's all I've got. He still has a number of flaws (recovery especially) but I haven't done enough with/against him to finish out the other main ones.
I play him occasionally in my spare time, but I haven't devoted too many resources to coming up with tactics etc. But in most of the matches with him, just playing by sight works well enough. Bring out the jabs for disrupting up close, use lasers to force proper position, and then just know how to keep them off-balance to connect with a fsmash or usmash.
That's all I've got. He still has a number of flaws (recovery especially) but I haven't done enough with/against him to finish out the other main ones.
He does seem to be stuck with a worse recovery than most, though Fox's recovery seemed easy to edgeguard too in Melee and it didn't end up hurting him all that much. Still in this game one edgeguard can make or break a match right now (hence why I lose many matches with Olimar where otherwise I would have dominated).
I have been playing more and more of him lately. He does have a good spacing game. I enjoyed watching Germ's Wolf quite a bit. His dash attack links nicely into a couple things. His moves seem to destroy shields faster, though this is entirely subjective. Killing can be a big problem. In Germ's vid vs Snake he could barely kill him before 200%. The fair seems like Mewtwo's fair from Melee.
The gun is way better than it looks. Can't explain why.
No other thoughts for now, I'm still learning quite a bit.
I have been playing more and more of him lately. He does have a good spacing game. I enjoyed watching Germ's Wolf quite a bit. His dash attack links nicely into a couple things. His moves seem to destroy shields faster, though this is entirely subjective. Killing can be a big problem. In Germ's vid vs Snake he could barely kill him before 200%. The fair seems like Mewtwo's fair from Melee.
The gun is way better than it looks. Can't explain why.
No other thoughts for now, I'm still learning quite a bit.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
Wolf is an awesome character, thats for sure. I think we all have noticed that the way people think about Wolf is quite polarized, even in the backroom. It seems like half the people want to say Wolf is good now but wont be good later, and the other half think he'll always be good. I used to be of the former opinion, but I think that I'm starting to change that slowly as I get more exposure to him.
And instead of talking about his strengths, which I don't have the time for right now, I want to point out his two biggest flaws.
1. His recovery is balls. There is probably no other character that gets gimped by stages more than Wolf. The angles he can use his up B at are much more strict than, say, Fox (IMO), and his side B is pretty good... except he will randomly fail to grab the edge sometimes although you hit it perfectly. And two of his aerials, his fair and dair (his spike) have a long recovery afterwards, with his short-as-hell recovery, Wolf's edgeguard game suffers greatly in comparison to other characters. Which ties very nicely into the next weakness he has.
2. Wolf has alot of problems killing. As I established before, his edgeguarding game isn't stellar by any means (unless you use a non-stale Bair, which will probably work ok at best), so you're going to have to star KO most characters due to the ridiculous recoveries in the game right now. Wolf's killing attacks are: Fair, Uair, Up-smash, and Down-smash. And most of those attacks don't really have great knockback. Like Prime said, Wolf could barely kill a fairly heavy character, Snake, before 200%. This is the sole reason why I hestitate to say Wolf is as good as many people say he is.
This is the way I see Wolf, as a character, working: Use his spacing, gun, shine, and fast attacks to rack up damage until you can (finally) KO them with one of your attacks. But, the way I see it happening down the line is that people will get used to the spacing, the gun, the shine, and the fast attacks (which have enough lag after they're shielded that just dropping the shield and attacking him works wonders), so it will continue to become harder and harder for Wolf to rack up damage against these more experienced players, which means there is no way he can get them to a percent where he can kill.
I could go into more depth, but I think thats good enough for now.
And instead of talking about his strengths, which I don't have the time for right now, I want to point out his two biggest flaws.
1. His recovery is balls. There is probably no other character that gets gimped by stages more than Wolf. The angles he can use his up B at are much more strict than, say, Fox (IMO), and his side B is pretty good... except he will randomly fail to grab the edge sometimes although you hit it perfectly. And two of his aerials, his fair and dair (his spike) have a long recovery afterwards, with his short-as-hell recovery, Wolf's edgeguard game suffers greatly in comparison to other characters. Which ties very nicely into the next weakness he has.
2. Wolf has alot of problems killing. As I established before, his edgeguarding game isn't stellar by any means (unless you use a non-stale Bair, which will probably work ok at best), so you're going to have to star KO most characters due to the ridiculous recoveries in the game right now. Wolf's killing attacks are: Fair, Uair, Up-smash, and Down-smash. And most of those attacks don't really have great knockback. Like Prime said, Wolf could barely kill a fairly heavy character, Snake, before 200%. This is the sole reason why I hestitate to say Wolf is as good as many people say he is.
This is the way I see Wolf, as a character, working: Use his spacing, gun, shine, and fast attacks to rack up damage until you can (finally) KO them with one of your attacks. But, the way I see it happening down the line is that people will get used to the spacing, the gun, the shine, and the fast attacks (which have enough lag after they're shielded that just dropping the shield and attacking him works wonders), so it will continue to become harder and harder for Wolf to rack up damage against these more experienced players, which means there is no way he can get them to a percent where he can kill.
I could go into more depth, but I think thats good enough for now.
Counters for Wolf? I found Game and Watch to be good. I also found that Meta Knight doesn't do so hot against a Wolf, especially with the lasers.
Why in the world would Game and Watch be a good counter to Wolf? I can't think of a single reason. Not that the matchup is bad for G&W or anything, but I can't think of a particular reason for Wolf to fear him over, say, any top or high tier character.
When Wolf randomly fails to catch the ledge with his side-B, he gets his double-jump back. If there were some way to figure out how to make him do this purposefully, it could lead to some interesting tactics. Maybe something similar to grabbing the edge and falling off right away in Melee. (No invincibility, though.)
When Wolf randomly fails to catch the ledge with his side-B, he gets his double-jump back. If there were some way to figure out how to make him do this purposefully, it could lead to some interesting tactics. Maybe something similar to grabbing the edge and falling off right away in Melee. (No invincibility, though.)
Some other random finds while playing today:
-F smash can be DI'd out of with the "middle" hit. Just hold up and you'll be out of range of the final "power hit".
-An often overlooked move is the ftilt. It's good good power and that odd momentary stun. If the other kill moves are weakened through deterioration, it fills in as a viable kill move.
-When Wolf reflects something with his shine, you can cancel it immediately by rolling or sidestepping. As in just press a direction as you're reflecting it, and you'll complete the appropriate motion. I wasn't aware of this before today, but it's a nice counter to projectile lockdowns. To my knowledge, it doesn't apply with Fox. Not really of too much use, but hey, I didn't know that before.
-F smash can be DI'd out of with the "middle" hit. Just hold up and you'll be out of range of the final "power hit".
-An often overlooked move is the ftilt. It's good good power and that odd momentary stun. If the other kill moves are weakened through deterioration, it fills in as a viable kill move.
-When Wolf reflects something with his shine, you can cancel it immediately by rolling or sidestepping. As in just press a direction as you're reflecting it, and you'll complete the appropriate motion. I wasn't aware of this before today, but it's a nice counter to projectile lockdowns. To my knowledge, it doesn't apply with Fox. Not really of too much use, but hey, I didn't know that before.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 5,517
Actually Omni I was playing a match over wifi and I did the same thing with Fox's shine I believe, unless I'm entirely crazy(Rolled after reflecting a ROB laser).
Also I don't think G&W does well against Wolf, Id say someone with a reflector would do better than G&W, wolf can generally hit G&W if he tries to bucket a laser, it seems to me that he gets stuck holding the bucket out a lot longer in brawl, unless I'm crazy.
Also I don't think G&W does well against Wolf, Id say someone with a reflector would do better than G&W, wolf can generally hit G&W if he tries to bucket a laser, it seems to me that he gets stuck holding the bucket out a lot longer in brawl, unless I'm crazy.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
No, I think he holds out the bucket longer too. The attack seems to be much more effective though. Dthrow into bucket = epic.
Just like KP said, Wolf's laser is amazing. I don't know how to explain it because it looks like it would suck fat ones, but it really is good.
My Link counters Wolf pretty well. It is hard for him to keep up with the projectiles and star KOing Link is pretty hard compared to a side KO. He has pretty good priority and range over Wolf too. A sudden uber fast fall dair is really good against him.
I play wolf a good bit.
1. His Fsmash has really surprising range (the tip is insane) and comes out pretty quick.
2. You can SH dair on top of people's shields and if timed has no recovery, which is good because dair has a good bit of shield stun.
3. Since all of the hits on his jab have a fair bit of stun, you can mix up between 1 2 and 3. (Comparative to Melee CF)
4. Forward b on the stage is extremely useful on playform stages via canceling it on the platform into free Dsmash provided you hit. I enjoy edgeguarding with it as well, since meteor canceling is different in this game.
5. His throws all have to be DIed a little differently at low percents to escape, they all knock you up into the air a little bit. That leaves wolf open to SH fair, dash attack, SH nair, or regrab.
1. His Fsmash has really surprising range (the tip is insane) and comes out pretty quick.
2. You can SH dair on top of people's shields and if timed has no recovery, which is good because dair has a good bit of shield stun.
3. Since all of the hits on his jab have a fair bit of stun, you can mix up between 1 2 and 3. (Comparative to Melee CF)
4. Forward b on the stage is extremely useful on playform stages via canceling it on the platform into free Dsmash provided you hit. I enjoy edgeguarding with it as well, since meteor canceling is different in this game.
5. His throws all have to be DIed a little differently at low percents to escape, they all knock you up into the air a little bit. That leaves wolf open to SH fair, dash attack, SH nair, or regrab.
Kyari
Smash Lord
if you're at the right distance, G&W can very safely do a bucket and get the laser thanks to the greatly improved invisible bucket radius. wolf is just not quick enough to catch up to him, but mind you this does have to be at a good distance. if you both start off on smashville, G&W can get his laser with the bucket from the starting positions of both players, and while this is probably not the maximum distance from which he can grab wolfs lasers, its a good reference for now. bucket can still be obtained against wolf, especially if they ever try to use their laser to edge gay you, and is still very scary (like dying scary) even on a heavy character like wolf at as little as 40-50%.
edit: also, dunno if anyone else has noticed this, but G&W's dash attack has this really ridiculous disjointment and can cancel tons of attacks including almost every projectile in the game. however, this does not work on wolf's laser. i've got a lot of other weird G&W quirks to discuss once his thread is opened... waiting....
edit deux: personally, i think once we figure out how to DI a lot of wolf's crap, notably his smashes, that you'll see lots of people just falling right out of them. how is this guy supposed to get kills? he can't really edgeguard as fast as he falls and as bad as his recovery is.
edit: also, dunno if anyone else has noticed this, but G&W's dash attack has this really ridiculous disjointment and can cancel tons of attacks including almost every projectile in the game. however, this does not work on wolf's laser. i've got a lot of other weird G&W quirks to discuss once his thread is opened... waiting....
edit deux: personally, i think once we figure out how to DI a lot of wolf's crap, notably his smashes, that you'll see lots of people just falling right out of them. how is this guy supposed to get kills? he can't really edgeguard as fast as he falls and as bad as his recovery is.
I think I figured out why Wolf's laser is actually good. It's a slow, high priority projectile. It's like the fireball speed in SF, when you could change it up to screw up people.
Maybe that's not it, maybe it is. It's still awesome for no obvious reason.
Maybe that's not it, maybe it is. It's still awesome for no obvious reason.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Wolf is my favorite matchup for ROB. Of all the space animals, he is the easiest to gimp. I suggest watching the online tournament's grand finals between me and yayuhzz to see what I mean >_>
Also, Wolf cna short hop his fair with 0 lag if timed properly. This gives him a 0 lag aerial on both sides of him, giving him the ability to actively pressure shields (use that shine!)
Are there any special properties to his shine that we know of?
Also, Wolf cna short hop his fair with 0 lag if timed properly. This gives him a 0 lag aerial on both sides of him, giving him the ability to actively pressure shields (use that shine!)
Are there any special properties to his shine that we know of?
Videos you say? I think I've seen those someplace before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuyNCyuhVdg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWvwZUCAKio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8XXCJQ3iDs
EDIT: By the way, you can see a really stupid gimp in the first 20 seconds of the second video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuyNCyuhVdg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWvwZUCAKio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8XXCJQ3iDs
EDIT: By the way, you can see a really stupid gimp in the first 20 seconds of the second video
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm fairly sure that Wolf's shine has invincibility unlike Fox and Falco this time around. I'm also fairly sure that it has multiple frames, not just one. I have no simplistic way to prove it though.
i REALLY dont think wolf's recovery is bad. u knock him off...he's gonna DJ and Forward/UpB. It happens really fast. its not like he sits there charging or preferes recovering from under the level, or way above like some character.
You can get alot done w/ wolf by just relying on gun, f.smash, and d.smash to KO.
If he f.smashes too close, he passes behind you and u'll miss the shield grab. If he f.smashes else how, u slide back from shielding it. His spacing is so annoying. The best bet is to wait for it and sidestep to punish (not applicable with some characters w/ too-long sidesteps), but even thats quite hard since he doesn't have much lag. I suppose everyone will just have to learn to powershield it on command...
...but that doesn't make wolf anyworse, assuming he can powershield too (duh), it just evens it out again to his favor when you're looking at powershield-d.smash w/ wolf.
His gun is enough to force bigger/slower/nonprojectile characters to be offense and make mistakes. I 2nd DK, and its so frustrating to fight my way through lasers, get close- just to get smashed back and play his game all over again. Not that he has that luxury against all the characters, but still.
I main Ice, and usually only pull them out when people beat my DK. I dont have that much a problem against wolf w/ them though. Maybe its my playstyle but i sidestep alot, trying to get grabs...this often leads to me evading and Nana getting hit. Eventually though i DO get a grab and he eats 30-80% (depending on his damage at the time). Ice can beat him in a projectile war and go even w/ spacing due to their blizzard, but i still have a hard time KOing due to his weight.
I'd say its roughly an even fight, which is dissapointing cuz it usually involves the wolf playing not much more complicated then against my DK.
You can get alot done w/ wolf by just relying on gun, f.smash, and d.smash to KO.
If he f.smashes too close, he passes behind you and u'll miss the shield grab. If he f.smashes else how, u slide back from shielding it. His spacing is so annoying. The best bet is to wait for it and sidestep to punish (not applicable with some characters w/ too-long sidesteps), but even thats quite hard since he doesn't have much lag. I suppose everyone will just have to learn to powershield it on command...
...but that doesn't make wolf anyworse, assuming he can powershield too (duh), it just evens it out again to his favor when you're looking at powershield-d.smash w/ wolf.
His gun is enough to force bigger/slower/nonprojectile characters to be offense and make mistakes. I 2nd DK, and its so frustrating to fight my way through lasers, get close- just to get smashed back and play his game all over again. Not that he has that luxury against all the characters, but still.
I main Ice, and usually only pull them out when people beat my DK. I dont have that much a problem against wolf w/ them though. Maybe its my playstyle but i sidestep alot, trying to get grabs...this often leads to me evading and Nana getting hit. Eventually though i DO get a grab and he eats 30-80% (depending on his damage at the time). Ice can beat him in a projectile war and go even w/ spacing due to their blizzard, but i still have a hard time KOing due to his weight.
I'd say its roughly an even fight, which is dissapointing cuz it usually involves the wolf playing not much more complicated then against my DK.
Fleur de Lis
Smash Lord
I love wolf. I think he sucks vs. Rob. however, his blaster is among the best projectiles in the game, his ftilt is great to spam, and his forward B actually kills (not too useful, but cool as ****)
gotta learn what moves to save with him, then you can kill.
edit: oh, and he has incredible DI when you cancel his forward B. seems to generally be better than using the entire thing, unless you want to kill with it.
gotta learn what moves to save with him, then you can kill.
edit: oh, and he has incredible DI when you cancel his forward B. seems to generally be better than using the entire thing, unless you want to kill with it.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
After playing some more, I still think Link is a great counter to Wolf. Snake is good too because he's so fat and you can kill Wolf at pretty low percentages. I did really well with Ganon too, but it could have just been because no one knows how to play my Ganon yet.
One guy played in the last tournament with Wolf and he used the lasers so **** much that I got ridiculously frustrated and played like ****. I barely beat him that match (with Snake). I used Samus the next match and spammed ledgehopped fairs, homing missiles, upsmashes, and neutral B shots and won pretty easily. Wolf can't do much to someone on the ledge or coming from off the stage (like someone previously mentioned).
One thing to note: Samus's smash missiles travel at the speed of ****ing light when they get reflected and it is a very very bad idea to use them against Wolf.
One guy played in the last tournament with Wolf and he used the lasers so **** much that I got ridiculously frustrated and played like ****. I barely beat him that match (with Snake). I used Samus the next match and spammed ledgehopped fairs, homing missiles, upsmashes, and neutral B shots and won pretty easily. Wolf can't do much to someone on the ledge or coming from off the stage (like someone previously mentioned).
One thing to note: Samus's smash missiles travel at the speed of ****ing light when they get reflected and it is a very very bad idea to use them against Wolf.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
I lol'd.
I'm of the opinion that Wolf is the most fun character to play. He will be the new captain falcon, I would wager.
Also, I couldn't get his dair to autocancel. Do you have to hit the shield at the top to get the "rise"? I can autocancel his fair and moves like Falcon's dair, but not Wolf's.
The dair does not autocancel. I couldn't get it using the same methods I use to get Ganon's near frame-perfect dair autocancel.
Well then nevermind.
The_Doug
Smash Ace
The best thing I've found about Wolf is he can very quickly apply pressure to an opponent's game.
At low percents his throws are excellent. Most of the time Wolf won't be able to combo out of a throw, but every single throw at low percent puts the opponent in a position where he can quickly follow up, or you can bait your opponent to make a move and then punish it accordingly. The down-throw is my favorite especially because at higher percents it'll push the opponent well off the stage to an easy edge guard. Also if they do get in the habit of teching, f-smash and d-smash have ridiculous range to punish these.
The only thing I don't like about his recovery is his Up-B frequently fails to grab the ledge when going at downward angles.
At low percents his throws are excellent. Most of the time Wolf won't be able to combo out of a throw, but every single throw at low percent puts the opponent in a position where he can quickly follow up, or you can bait your opponent to make a move and then punish it accordingly. The down-throw is my favorite especially because at higher percents it'll push the opponent well off the stage to an easy edge guard. Also if they do get in the habit of teching, f-smash and d-smash have ridiculous range to punish these.
The only thing I don't like about his recovery is his Up-B frequently fails to grab the ledge when going at downward angles.
I've been fooling around with Wolf a lot against people recently. I tried to win using only F-smash, F-tilt, jabs, Blaster and an occasional random aerial and D-smash.. It works so well, it almost seems like he doesn't need any other moves. F-tilt and jabs are mostly to rack up damage, while the jabs also break consecutive hits. Blaster for the obvious spam. Iif they get too close, they get hit by the dagger on his gun so you don't have to worry so much about being punished. F-smash is good for KOs, and and nearly unstoppable if you space it well. D-smash is even better for KOs so I try to not use it until ~110%. Bair for edgeguarding, pressuring shields and general aerial move spamming. It seems to go into combo mode after a while of using. It's pretty much all I do and I just win.
EDIT: On another note, his Up-B screw me over a lot as well.
Btw, Doug. Marc said my Wolf is more annoying than yours O_o HA!
EDIT: On another note, his Up-B screw me over a lot as well.
Btw, Doug. Marc said my Wolf is more annoying than yours O_o HA!
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
Wolf's recovery is quite possibly one of the most often gimped recoveries ever. I often see PS1 as a Wolf counterpick stage, simply because those ledges just hate his Up/Side B so there is at least 1 gimp every game.
And Coen, I know what you mean about that. My roomate, who is by no means a good smasher, picked up Wolf, and just spammed blaster/F-smash/D-smash/down B which took me awhile to beat. But I found out Wolf's greatest weakness: The shield. I can perfect shield his blaster pretty easily since its so slow, so I can use that as an approach. Then you simply block any of his ground attacks, drop your shield, and hit him in the face. Wolf's attacks all have just enough lag on them to make them punishable by dropping the shield when you get the timing down well enough. Also, another great way to beat Wolf is out-ranging him. I only have to perfect shield (actually regular shield works well, too) 1-2 blasters before I'm in range for DK's F-tilt, which has more range than any of his attacks other than the F-smash. Wolf is good, no doubt about that, but I'm still pretty sure that he's just good for now.
And Coen, I know what you mean about that. My roomate, who is by no means a good smasher, picked up Wolf, and just spammed blaster/F-smash/D-smash/down B which took me awhile to beat. But I found out Wolf's greatest weakness: The shield. I can perfect shield his blaster pretty easily since its so slow, so I can use that as an approach. Then you simply block any of his ground attacks, drop your shield, and hit him in the face. Wolf's attacks all have just enough lag on them to make them punishable by dropping the shield when you get the timing down well enough. Also, another great way to beat Wolf is out-ranging him. I only have to perfect shield (actually regular shield works well, too) 1-2 blasters before I'm in range for DK's F-tilt, which has more range than any of his attacks other than the F-smash. Wolf is good, no doubt about that, but I'm still pretty sure that he's just good for now.
Oakwood
Smash Cadet
From the Dojo entry on Wolf:
<Down Special Move: Reflector>
Wolf releases a red tinted Reflector that makes him invincible for a moment upon its activation. If you draw the enemy in close and use Reflector as if it was a counter...
When I played against Yea in the Wi-Fi wars tournament I found his Wolf to be very difficult to approach as Meta Knight. Also, although his recovery clearly has drawbacks, to its credit I found it almost impossible to edge-guard without being caught up in it. I think what other people are saying about Wolf's great spacing game is definitely one of his best aspects. He's a character more than others you really need to practice against to get a feel for fighting against him.
I play Wolf a fair amount, and I think one of the reasons his blaster is so good is because A) His actual bringing the gun out does damage by itself if you're close, which knocks them straight into the blast, which B) is slow enough for you to rush with. Like Mario's fireballs in Melee, you can time it so you get there just after the laser. It's also got really good stun to it, and it has a pretty good hitbox.
His Ftilt is underrated, I think. I'm not sure exactly what he does, but it stuns just like ZSS does with most of her moves, and the knockback is such that you can either catch them in another move right away or laser them before they can react right. Honestly, I think he's an awesome character. The only thing is his recovery, obviously, but even that, when it hits, is a really good heavy-hitting distancer, and his Over B acts as a spike, like Falco's. He does have trouble killing, but I find that you can still keep your distance and rack up damage while you're waiting for the right moment.
I feel like Wolf requires a lot of patience to play well, but the payoff will be outstanding.
His Ftilt is underrated, I think. I'm not sure exactly what he does, but it stuns just like ZSS does with most of her moves, and the knockback is such that you can either catch them in another move right away or laser them before they can react right. Honestly, I think he's an awesome character. The only thing is his recovery, obviously, but even that, when it hits, is a really good heavy-hitting distancer, and his Over B acts as a spike, like Falco's. He does have trouble killing, but I find that you can still keep your distance and rack up damage while you're waiting for the right moment.
I feel like Wolf requires a lot of patience to play well, but the payoff will be outstanding.
Drephen
Smash Master
dont think wolf will amount to anything, hes wayyy to easy to predict and can get gimped pretty easily
just a prediction though
just a prediction though
Kyari
Smash Lord
I agree; his playstyle, while annoying, seems very one-dimensional and once people start figuring out how to stop a lot of wolf's best tricks, he will fall. Dunno by how much, but I can't see any character with only one basic strategy plus a very poor recovery making it far. But we'll see; I haven't played a lot of Wolves yet.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
I think you should include notable match ups involving the characters. For example, someone said Wolf does well again MK, but poorly against G&W.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Meh. They can read the thread. It's just a summary, not a play by play. Plu,s you just posted it for me
Someone move this to the Wolf place now!
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
One of these days, OS... POW straight to the moon. I'm a little sad that the thread ended up being this short, but oh well. Not much you can do about that.
This is the final post in the Smash Back Room discussion...
Everything after this post is general discussion!
This is the final post in the Smash Back Room discussion...
Everything after this post is general discussion!
S2
Smash Lord
Wolf is tricky because he's got a lot of very distinct advantages and disadvantages. At first he's seems godly due to his laser spamming, tilts, and f-smash, but once you learn how to play against him he's really not that overpowered (at least at this point). Mix that in with his gimpable recoveries. What I'm saying is that a bad wolf is very easily predicted, since most players are going to immediatly learn what to do against a wolf that simply spams the more advantageous attacks.
Then again, he does have a good aerial game. All of his aerials are good and the fact that his f/b-airs can be shorthopped without lag is a big plus.
As far as his lasers. They do have an advantage in that the range is just enough on them to go across most of a smaller stage (like battlefield)... but not long enough so that if someone reflects them from longer than mid-rnage they dissapear before making it back to you. So its definitely got a good advantage at the right spacing. Then again, you're left wide open if an opponent is too close (but not close enough to be hit by the bayonet) since a good opponent can easily punish him with an aerial if they approach above the laser or simply dodge and counter.
His good aerial game, laser abilities and smart use of his tilts/f-smash do put him in a pretty good position.
I think he's got potential for sure. How well Wolf players realistically place in tournaments is yet to be seen.
Then again, he does have a good aerial game. All of his aerials are good and the fact that his f/b-airs can be shorthopped without lag is a big plus.
As far as his lasers. They do have an advantage in that the range is just enough on them to go across most of a smaller stage (like battlefield)... but not long enough so that if someone reflects them from longer than mid-rnage they dissapear before making it back to you. So its definitely got a good advantage at the right spacing. Then again, you're left wide open if an opponent is too close (but not close enough to be hit by the bayonet) since a good opponent can easily punish him with an aerial if they approach above the laser or simply dodge and counter.
His good aerial game, laser abilities and smart use of his tilts/f-smash do put him in a pretty good position.
I think he's got potential for sure. How well Wolf players realistically place in tournaments is yet to be seen.
Koscu
Smash Cadet
I haven't read all the texts, I just want to get my 0.02 in before i have a panic attack.
Personally, as a MK and Wolf main, i see both characters nearly the same, but completely different sides of the spectrum, and i force myself to apply both playing styles when i play both toons. But that's another topic on its own.
Wolf, i find atleast, you have to discover his groove. I don't know if anyone else feel's it, but it seems to keep a constant rush going with him, you have to figure out every last bit of his attacks out before you can utilize them, which is why i think that so many people think he's a poor character now, but will be amazing later. Its due to the fact that we haven't seen his complete and total potential.
I hope many of you can agree with me when i say that once you get into a nice fluent groove with Wolf, its extremely hard to stop. Which can be looked at both ways as a strength, and as a flaw. This is where i draw my ability with MK into with wolf: YOU HAVE TO COMMIT. Every hit counts with Wolf, and you can't miss. Once that groove stops, you're probably in one of the most gimpable situations i've found in this game. Although most of his attacks are fast and brute, it almost feels like you have to think ahead, more than usual.
You don't just act on instinct with Wolf, you act on the instinct that you haven't even had time to feel yet.
Then there are the obvious flaws of Wolf: his recovery, and KO ability.
The way i try with wolf is the mentality of "the best defense is a good offense". The other player can't score if you're always on the offense. Which brings me back to his groove. You always always have to be on the ball with Wolf, no matter what. You slack once, and you'll lose.
1. Keep your opponent on the stage, or above the stage
I'm going to contradict my self for a second here, but play conservatively when it comes to off the stage play. If you knock a player off the to side, make sure that you're going to kill him if you're going to your own life on the line. Wolfs dair is fun to use off the map, considering it spikes huuuge; but careful, it may cost you your life. I personally use dair to rack up dmg, i start abusing it around 50% or higher if they know how to DI extremely well, 75%+ is a little safer. You can abuse the limited time they're stunned for to add in another small 10% attack, preping for a finish.
2. Save your KO Moves
Its simple. And this is where i personally see my MK gameplay come in. Conserve your KO moves. Use utilts, uairs, dtilt, blasters, and shines to rack up your opponents damage. Its pretty simple once you get the hang of it. And once you get them 100%+, unleash your smashes, fairs, bairs, nairs. It keeps you fresh, and teaches you speed and precision. Don't be scared to approach your opponent: wolf is both amazing at camping play and offensive play. Its all in practice.
3. Either don't stop moving, or stay in one spot: NOT BOTH!
I can't stress this anymore. Either attack your opponent as much as you can possibly and offensively, or just stay back and spam smaller moves until the kill is ready.
----
I've also found bayonet spamming fun to. I've only done it a few times, in air mostly for edgeguarding. Instead of shining when i get right next them, i use my bayonet. It seems to push them farther away than shine does. I don't have my wii on me, but i would like someone to try a RAR - AD - Bayonet, or SH - AD - Reverse B. I don't foresee any good play with this, but it'd be a fun taunting strat imho: Just getting behind your opponent and spamming.
Personally, as a MK and Wolf main, i see both characters nearly the same, but completely different sides of the spectrum, and i force myself to apply both playing styles when i play both toons. But that's another topic on its own.
Wolf, i find atleast, you have to discover his groove. I don't know if anyone else feel's it, but it seems to keep a constant rush going with him, you have to figure out every last bit of his attacks out before you can utilize them, which is why i think that so many people think he's a poor character now, but will be amazing later. Its due to the fact that we haven't seen his complete and total potential.
I hope many of you can agree with me when i say that once you get into a nice fluent groove with Wolf, its extremely hard to stop. Which can be looked at both ways as a strength, and as a flaw. This is where i draw my ability with MK into with wolf: YOU HAVE TO COMMIT. Every hit counts with Wolf, and you can't miss. Once that groove stops, you're probably in one of the most gimpable situations i've found in this game. Although most of his attacks are fast and brute, it almost feels like you have to think ahead, more than usual.
You don't just act on instinct with Wolf, you act on the instinct that you haven't even had time to feel yet.
Then there are the obvious flaws of Wolf: his recovery, and KO ability.
The way i try with wolf is the mentality of "the best defense is a good offense". The other player can't score if you're always on the offense. Which brings me back to his groove. You always always have to be on the ball with Wolf, no matter what. You slack once, and you'll lose.
1. Keep your opponent on the stage, or above the stage
I'm going to contradict my self for a second here, but play conservatively when it comes to off the stage play. If you knock a player off the to side, make sure that you're going to kill him if you're going to your own life on the line. Wolfs dair is fun to use off the map, considering it spikes huuuge; but careful, it may cost you your life. I personally use dair to rack up dmg, i start abusing it around 50% or higher if they know how to DI extremely well, 75%+ is a little safer. You can abuse the limited time they're stunned for to add in another small 10% attack, preping for a finish.
2. Save your KO Moves
Its simple. And this is where i personally see my MK gameplay come in. Conserve your KO moves. Use utilts, uairs, dtilt, blasters, and shines to rack up your opponents damage. Its pretty simple once you get the hang of it. And once you get them 100%+, unleash your smashes, fairs, bairs, nairs. It keeps you fresh, and teaches you speed and precision. Don't be scared to approach your opponent: wolf is both amazing at camping play and offensive play. Its all in practice.
3. Either don't stop moving, or stay in one spot: NOT BOTH!
I can't stress this anymore. Either attack your opponent as much as you can possibly and offensively, or just stay back and spam smaller moves until the kill is ready.
----
I've also found bayonet spamming fun to. I've only done it a few times, in air mostly for edgeguarding. Instead of shining when i get right next them, i use my bayonet. It seems to push them farther away than shine does. I don't have my wii on me, but i would like someone to try a RAR - AD - Bayonet, or SH - AD - Reverse B. I don't foresee any good play with this, but it'd be a fun taunting strat imho: Just getting behind your opponent and spamming.
teekay
Smash Journeyman
I don't necessarily agree with all of what you posted Koscu, but I definitely agree that saving Wolf's kill moves is an important part of his game. I personally think his aerials are too important as damage builders to save, and I think his F smash is really good for damage building as well, but if nothing else, I always save down smash. Most matches I'll use it once, maybe possibly twice before they are at 120% or so. It really is an amazing kill move if you keep it fresh.
Just my thoughts. I absolutely love Wolf and I wanted to main him the moment I saw a gameplay video of him before the game was even out here. I have my doubts about whether he will ever make it into the top tier, but I'm pretty much settled on playing him regardless.
Just my thoughts. I absolutely love Wolf and I wanted to main him the moment I saw a gameplay video of him before the game was even out here. I have my doubts about whether he will ever make it into the top tier, but I'm pretty much settled on playing him regardless.
Fat Otaku
Smash Apprentice
I used Wolf for the SRK 6th Online Tournament. Got second place. Lost to a Meat Knight. But it was mostly due to counter-pick stages. That and he is a good MK player as well.
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
You make some valid points Koscu, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the general scale.
One important point I believe that the Back Room Discussion has failed to capture and discuss is Wolf's Bair (also, as a side note, I find Uair to be a terrible killing move). Bair is ridiculously amazing. Wolf definitely has the new Wall of Pain which I've come to call the Wolf Wall.
You can combo surprisingly well to some extent and execute amazing shield pressure and pressure in general by mixing up the Wolf Wall. If anything Bair should be your most used attack next to, say, jab.
One important point I believe that the Back Room Discussion has failed to capture and discuss is Wolf's Bair (also, as a side note, I find Uair to be a terrible killing move). Bair is ridiculously amazing. Wolf definitely has the new Wall of Pain which I've come to call the Wolf Wall.
You can combo surprisingly well to some extent and execute amazing shield pressure and pressure in general by mixing up the Wolf Wall. If anything Bair should be your most used attack next to, say, jab.
Wolf owns the ground with his Laser spam and F/smash tippers. If you ever get close enough to avoid this danger zone his shine puts you back in your place. Spamming this for a long time to KO with a fresh D/smash seems to work rather well. If they come by air, a good Wolf can shoot them out of it at the opportune moment to bring them back to the danger zone.
A well spaced Wolf can potentially own the ground, and with his Laser you can shoot any birds out of the sky.
Decay, predictability, and recovery are his problems.
If he plays very very defensively, Wolf has great potential. Otherwise his Cons outweigh his Pros.
I'd imagine a Wolf that plays this way, however, would not be a fan favorite though.
::EDIT::
With a Stutterstep, Wolf's f/smash can tip when completely unexpected. It reaches a range that no physical move should reach. Foward Stutterstep F/smash, and Retreated Foxtrot Backword Stutterstep are easily as spammable as Laser and just as useful.
A well spaced Wolf can potentially own the ground, and with his Laser you can shoot any birds out of the sky.
Decay, predictability, and recovery are his problems.
If he plays very very defensively, Wolf has great potential. Otherwise his Cons outweigh his Pros.
I'd imagine a Wolf that plays this way, however, would not be a fan favorite though.
::EDIT::
With a Stutterstep, Wolf's f/smash can tip when completely unexpected. It reaches a range that no physical move should reach. Foward Stutterstep F/smash, and Retreated Foxtrot Backword Stutterstep are easily as spammable as Laser and just as useful.
Card
Smash Lord
(Posted this in the wrong thread, so now I'll post it in the right one )
I'll contribute my thoughts on the discussion as well.
Wolf as it stands is also a very solid character. Its most probable that he will be guaranteed to be part of the "better half" of the roster of characters. Although as some people have said, I do not believe that he will be as HIGH as people are placing him (Some even go as far as to place him amongst the Top 4 in the game).
Many of Wolf's animations and attacks are very unorthodox and awkward looking especially in terms of range. I don't mean this in a negative sense, since it can actually catch quite a few people off-guard. The most notable being his F-Smash, which strikes near instantaneously and has a ridiculous forward range. This keeps a constant "Danger Zone" a couple of feet in front & behind Wolf at all times, which makes approaching him on the ground much more risky. Either way, approaching Wolf is almost always done in the Air, simply due to the fact that if you aren't avoiding his amazing Blaster, you are avoiding his F-Smash, and if you manage to get past those, you are avoiding his F-Tilt, Shine, and any other fast-hitting out of shield combination of attacks. For a Wolf player, knowing that their opponents main form of approach will be the air, he's at an immediate advantage, and can counter-them appropriately.
I have a feeling that Wolf will shift into becoming an extremely defensive and campy character, if he isn't already. While he does have a variety of ways to approach, none of them are as efficient as his defensive play style, which when played correctly can be very hard to break. Right now many Wolf players seem to go on the offense continuously, while this has proven to be somewhat successful, I feel that the real success with Wolf will be focusing on his defensive play style (or at least a strong balance between both offense and defensive play styles). I think the more players start to abuse his Blaster (In the same way Falco from Melee abuses his) the better Wolf players will rise amongst the ranks. But Wolf players will need to constantly "reinvent" their defensive play style, because the more and more we play Smash Brawl, the easier it is becoming to get passed campy players.
Wolf has a lot of neat tricks that he can do with his Shine, and it really opened up a world of approaches that he might not of had otherwise. Just the fact that Wolf has an inherent side-step attached in his Shine shows how well it can be used defensively. Unfortunately for him, he lost out in the speed department of the Space Animals, so getting some quick trash-kills using some properly timed off-stage Shines or D-Air spikes tends to be somewhat difficult. But this really shouldn't phase Wolf players, because Wolf has a variety of killing moves which he can perform on stage without too much worry.
It goes without saying that Wolf's recovery tends to be one of his weakest points. With the correct set of counter-picked stages, opponents to Wolf can really take advantage of mistakes that might come up during recovery. Lylat Cruise in particular strikes me as a stage where I have seen wolves get stuck underneath the tip of the wing countless times.
With that being said and done, probably the best way I could sum this up is by continuing what Overswarm said; "It will take a lot of patience to play Wolf well."
)I'll contribute my thoughts on the discussion as well.
Wolf as it stands is also a very solid character. Its most probable that he will be guaranteed to be part of the "better half" of the roster of characters. Although as some people have said, I do not believe that he will be as HIGH as people are placing him (Some even go as far as to place him amongst the Top 4 in the game).
Many of Wolf's animations and attacks are very unorthodox and awkward looking especially in terms of range. I don't mean this in a negative sense, since it can actually catch quite a few people off-guard. The most notable being his F-Smash, which strikes near instantaneously and has a ridiculous forward range. This keeps a constant "Danger Zone" a couple of feet in front & behind Wolf at all times, which makes approaching him on the ground much more risky. Either way, approaching Wolf is almost always done in the Air, simply due to the fact that if you aren't avoiding his amazing Blaster, you are avoiding his F-Smash, and if you manage to get past those, you are avoiding his F-Tilt, Shine, and any other fast-hitting out of shield combination of attacks. For a Wolf player, knowing that their opponents main form of approach will be the air, he's at an immediate advantage, and can counter-them appropriately.
I have a feeling that Wolf will shift into becoming an extremely defensive and campy character, if he isn't already. While he does have a variety of ways to approach, none of them are as efficient as his defensive play style, which when played correctly can be very hard to break. Right now many Wolf players seem to go on the offense continuously, while this has proven to be somewhat successful, I feel that the real success with Wolf will be focusing on his defensive play style (or at least a strong balance between both offense and defensive play styles). I think the more players start to abuse his Blaster (In the same way Falco from Melee abuses his) the better Wolf players will rise amongst the ranks. But Wolf players will need to constantly "reinvent" their defensive play style, because the more and more we play Smash Brawl, the easier it is becoming to get passed campy players.
Wolf has a lot of neat tricks that he can do with his Shine, and it really opened up a world of approaches that he might not of had otherwise. Just the fact that Wolf has an inherent side-step attached in his Shine shows how well it can be used defensively. Unfortunately for him, he lost out in the speed department of the Space Animals, so getting some quick trash-kills using some properly timed off-stage Shines or D-Air spikes tends to be somewhat difficult. But this really shouldn't phase Wolf players, because Wolf has a variety of killing moves which he can perform on stage without too much worry.
It goes without saying that Wolf's recovery tends to be one of his weakest points. With the correct set of counter-picked stages, opponents to Wolf can really take advantage of mistakes that might come up during recovery. Lylat Cruise in particular strikes me as a stage where I have seen wolves get stuck underneath the tip of the wing countless times.
With that being said and done, probably the best way I could sum this up is by continuing what Overswarm said; "It will take a lot of patience to play Wolf well."
gamadaya
Smash Rookie
Alright, I figure I'm good enough and have played Wolf enough to give my opinion.
I play Wolf as one of my mains, and I agree with a lot his strategies being 1 dimentional. I don't think that's a bad thing though. When I first played him, and especially when I fought against him, I thought he was a little cheap. Now, after improving my spacing and learning different approach strategies, I'm finding that while Wolf isn't invincible, he is good. Here's what I think of him, based mostly on facts, because I'm still developing a lot new strategies and patterns with him.
Wolfs attack speed and range for his smashes is demonic. His fsmash has more range than pretty much any other characters (I often avoid Marth's counter because I move to the other side of him after attacking).His dsmash is of the sweep variaty. While I like those that attack both directions at once, Wolf's is fast enough, strong enough, and has enough range to satisfy me. It's also the move I kill most with. His up smash seems alright. I don't use it much, mostly because I like Wolf's air game. His forward and down smashes also have pretty short recovery lag, so they are reletively spammable.
His fAir and bAir are both pretty powerful, but what makes them really great is their speed. They are fast! I rarely feel at a disadvantage while in the air, especially when below an opponent. Wolf seems to be a bit of a jugler too. While his uAir isn't really powerful, it works to keep his enemies in the air. I do find that while his fAir is extremly quick, it's got a little too much recovery lag to be used irresponsibly without being punished. His dAir seems pretty good, but I wish it was a drill! It's got a little lag to it, and it seems too easy to attack him from the sides. I like his nAir. It's got decent power I'd say. No real comment on it, because I'm still working on new ways to use it.
His range game is what I love though. That laser is a beast, and it's priority is great. At first, I though it was gimped because of it's short range. I quickly learned that that was a plus. Nobody ever reflects that thing back to Wolf. It just won't make it back to him. On top of that, his shine seems to have a longer range than Fox's, and it reflects stuff back faster than it came. I love fighting at a range with Wolf. And what makes this even better is that he's good at fighting head to head. I try to never approach Wolf acting as the aggressor, but sometimes I don't have a choice if he's pressuring me with that laser.
My problem is that he is a little slow. It's a little hard to approach the faster characters, or characters with good ranged attacks. I usually just apply pressure with the laser until I see an opportunity, but one doesn't always show up. I don't think I would call Wolf defensive though. He does have trouble approaching, but he isn't obscenely slow, and that laser helps a lot. He is sort of defensive at a range, but once you get near the opponent, I think he's actually one of the strongest characters. Strong, fast smashes with high priority and range, and the ability to SH his fAir, and dAir pretty easily. I think that once an opponent gets too close to him, Wolf really shines. The trick is just getting them to approach (which thanks to his laser can be done pretty easily).
Also, even though I have trouble edge gaurding with him, I don't usually have to. I get most KOs right out of the dsmash. It hasn't really been a problem for me so far.
I play Wolf as one of my mains, and I agree with a lot his strategies being 1 dimentional. I don't think that's a bad thing though. When I first played him, and especially when I fought against him, I thought he was a little cheap. Now, after improving my spacing and learning different approach strategies, I'm finding that while Wolf isn't invincible, he is good. Here's what I think of him, based mostly on facts, because I'm still developing a lot new strategies and patterns with him.
Wolfs attack speed and range for his smashes is demonic. His fsmash has more range than pretty much any other characters (I often avoid Marth's counter because I move to the other side of him after attacking).His dsmash is of the sweep variaty. While I like those that attack both directions at once, Wolf's is fast enough, strong enough, and has enough range to satisfy me. It's also the move I kill most with. His up smash seems alright. I don't use it much, mostly because I like Wolf's air game. His forward and down smashes also have pretty short recovery lag, so they are reletively spammable.
His fAir and bAir are both pretty powerful, but what makes them really great is their speed. They are fast! I rarely feel at a disadvantage while in the air, especially when below an opponent. Wolf seems to be a bit of a jugler too. While his uAir isn't really powerful, it works to keep his enemies in the air. I do find that while his fAir is extremly quick, it's got a little too much recovery lag to be used irresponsibly without being punished. His dAir seems pretty good, but I wish it was a drill! It's got a little lag to it, and it seems too easy to attack him from the sides. I like his nAir. It's got decent power I'd say. No real comment on it, because I'm still working on new ways to use it.
His range game is what I love though. That laser is a beast, and it's priority is great. At first, I though it was gimped because of it's short range. I quickly learned that that was a plus. Nobody ever reflects that thing back to Wolf. It just won't make it back to him. On top of that, his shine seems to have a longer range than Fox's, and it reflects stuff back faster than it came. I love fighting at a range with Wolf. And what makes this even better is that he's good at fighting head to head. I try to never approach Wolf acting as the aggressor, but sometimes I don't have a choice if he's pressuring me with that laser.
My problem is that he is a little slow. It's a little hard to approach the faster characters, or characters with good ranged attacks. I usually just apply pressure with the laser until I see an opportunity, but one doesn't always show up. I don't think I would call Wolf defensive though. He does have trouble approaching, but he isn't obscenely slow, and that laser helps a lot. He is sort of defensive at a range, but once you get near the opponent, I think he's actually one of the strongest characters. Strong, fast smashes with high priority and range, and the ability to SH his fAir, and dAir pretty easily. I think that once an opponent gets too close to him, Wolf really shines. The trick is just getting them to approach (which thanks to his laser can be done pretty easily).
Also, even though I have trouble edge gaurding with him, I don't usually have to. I get most KOs right out of the dsmash. It hasn't really been a problem for me so far.
Fat Otaku
Smash Apprentice
Well. Defensive means you wait for THEM to come to YOU. You bait them. Get hits from your laser in when you can, shield and grab, d-smash, and f-smash with Wolf when they get in range. Juggle when you can against characters you feel comfortable against.