Weekly Matchup Discussion - Falco

[BOB SAGET!]

A spotdodge is really useful once you spot patterns in your opponents play or just see an attack coming. Stay at mid range once you get caught at close range quickly get away but bait him. Try to see what he's going for whether a jab, grab, or the unlikely aerial. Baiting is important in this matchup imo. Keep mid range and try to see what he'll do when u come into close range.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Not so far. There still hasn't been advice on what to do in close range though.

>.>

there isnt much you can do vs falco close range with olimar. if falco is in olimars face, olimar is screwed at low %.

 

[Tin Man]

i feel more comfortable about this match up now after reading people's stuff, and i will Uptilt more at close range, i feel that as reliable and unexpected because the falco is just waiting for you to go close range so you can uptilt and punish him for getting too greedy and impatient.

i would like to make a list of everything i feel important in how I'm going to approach this match up and should remember. anyone jump in and tell me if I'm forgetting something!

LIST INFORMATION FACLO vs. OLIMAR

Olimar generally kills falco at 110%

Falco generally kills olimar at 125%

Olimar gets out camped at long range

Olimar is best at mid range, just don't short hop or jump

Olimar loses at close range, Uptilt is effective for olimar in a close range situation

F smash AND UP TILT beats phantasm

Yellow pikmin don't get hurt by lasers

whistle when in the air, falco will crush you if not

ducking, down tilt AND SIDE TAUNT are effective for laser avoidance.

down throw combos are better than normal in the match up for olimar because falco FALLS FAST

yellow pikmin up smash beats falco Dair, no other pikmin does, use this well because when spaced like this they are probably going for DAIR Jab then Grab

CG happens from 0-35%ish and CG ***** olimar, best not to fight him so much with risky moves until you reach this percentage

STAGES: CP Delfino or smashvile, mabye rainbow cruise or lylat. best Neutrals are smashvile, YI, or FD. Ban JAPES

this one is my personal opinion and strategy, but when falco is recovering don't go for the gimp as much as going for more damage and re hitting back off with F smash and grabs, but go for the gimp if they use up B because that SUCKS



i feel like i could be missing something?

The changes are in all caps, just 3 of them

Let's break this down...

To pivotgrab,
1. Dash.
2. Grab.
3. Press back on the control stick.

To boost pivotgrab,
1. Dash.
2. Dash attack.
3. Grab.
4. Press back on the control stick.

You're adding an extra input. Regular pivot grabbing is quicker.

I would say to pivot grab, step 2 & 3 can be performed at the same time, and to boost pivot grab, 3 and 4 can happen at the same time.

 

[IcyLight]

you shouldn't be losing stocks to falco's chain spike, oli can consistently quarter circle DI onto the stage even when he grabs you RIGHT NEXT TO IT. just spam a quarter rotation from down towards the stage, and you will land on the stage every time. you can also tech it after you land on the stage and either:

a) tech in place and punish his dair
b) tech roll towards the stage to be on the inside of the stage and him in a bad position
c) tech roll towards the edge, not recommended but if he catches on you can QCDI he will land on the stage and fsmash towards it because most people roll in that direction if they land on the stage in that situation

imo, bf is the best counterpick. there are tons of platforms to screw up his laser camping, he has a hard time approaching because of the platforms, and it's a med/med-far range so you aren't being out camped, overall i like to take falco to here and FD if they don't ban it


also, every time i try to dthrow follow up he goes way too far unless i grab him at low %, which wouldn't that mean fthrow/uthrow are better combo options unless at low%? =/ i could be wrong

could we get some videos of olimar ****** on this match up? it would be much apreciated! it's hard to see all of this come together sometimes with just talk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h58BTCcQO78 this is me vs. bloodcross a while back, since then i have picked up quarter circle di so chain spiking doesn't work anymore besides for damage

2 final notes: if they don't di down your nair to shield, you can nair smash. if they do, you can pivot grab or utilt if their shield is small

you can also di down most multi-hit attacks when grounded and do a dsmash or something, for instance, in my vid i di'ed his fair down and usmashed him, you can di gnw's turtle down and dsmash, marths sideb when he does the quick jabs "downb during combo" and do a dsmash, etc.

 

[Llumys]

Pressing down on the c-stick for boost pivot grab works a lot better for me. :S Anyway, shouldn't all of us already know this...?

 

[*_Echo_*]

falcos CG isnt that bad, it gives them a free 40-50% thats about it, we can get grab combos and get that much or more, the spike is useless if u tether cancel it right and u can even stage spike falco after the spike if he grabs the ledge. but of course if it misses, the spike is very effective ^^;

in close and long range falco wins, so just stay about a grounded pikmin throw away.
never jump ever, in this matchup, just grounded pikmin throws while he lasers and u win the camping game because there will always be a pikmin in front of u to stop lasers and if u get a yellow pikmin on his chest it stops lasers :D.

now the close range game ur screwed pretty much ^^;
piviot grab the d-air or yellow up-smash it, uhh thats about it^^;

sorry if any of this was already said ^^;

 

[Llumys]

Grab combos are escapable after a few down throws.

Chaingrab to spike is not.

 

[*_Echo_*]

Grab combos are escapable after a few down throws.

Chaingrab to spike is not.

true, it is more reliable than our combos ^^;

 

[Tin Man]

The chain grab doesn't work all the way to 50 %, 35% after spike

 

[Denti]

If olimar is CG he loses control. he is at the mercy of falco. curse you falco

 

[Noa.]

What's left to discuss in this matchup?

We've discussed how to camp against Falco.

We've discussed how to get out of the chaingrab in the most efficient way and how to survive the spike.

We've discussed a little bit about what to do in close range.

We've discussed counterpicks and bans.

We've discussed how to edgeguard.

I'm not sure if we discussed how to avoid Falco's edgeguarding. And we still need to decide a ratio. After that, I think we'll basically be finished.

 

[Denti]

true that. does anyone know which pikmin Fair beats the charging of falco's up special? or do they all beat it?

 

[DanGR]

I'm pretty sure any pikmin will do, Denti.

I'm not not 100% sure because I never attack it. The only time Falco players use it is when they need to recover vertically, which can be edgehogged 9 times out of 10.
Tetherhogging helps.

 

[Llumys]

You shouldn't have to gimp a Fire Bird. It's ridiculously easy to hog with your tether as a tool.

EDIT:

Anyway, a good way to finish the discussion would be listing the following things:

Falco's average kill percentages
Olimar's average kill percentages
Falco's down throw re-grabs
Olimar's down throw re-grabs
Preferred neutrals (striking)
Preferred counterpicks
Preferred ban
Notable contribution (quotes)
Match-up ratio

It'd be cool if we had nice sections in our match-up thread. (: I know we didn't do this for Ness, Pikachu, Diddy, and Snake, but we could always do that later. <_<;

Thoughts?

 

[Tin Man]

Falco's average kill percentages - 110
Olimar's average kill percentages - 125
Falco's down throw re-grabs - 3
Olimar's down throw re-grabs - 2
Preferred neutrals (striking) - Strike Yoshi's cause if u get caught in chaingrab on an upwards slant, it gets bad , FD cause u want Bfeild, Lylat, and smashville.
Preferred counterpicks - Battlefeild, Brinstar, Halberd
Preferred ban - Jungle Japes
Notable contribution (quotes) - side taunt can duck under lasers (Tin Man)
Match-up ratio - 45-55 Oli disadvantage

Edit: w00t 1000th post

 

[Llumys]

Using a taunt to dodge lasers is a terrible idea.

 

[Noa.]

It's not a terrible idea. You look cool and dodge lasers.

Albeit, it's completely unimportant and shouldn't be done ever in a serious match.

 

[Beefster]

So I tried some tactics against my friend's Falco. I realized that a good idea is to bait the reflector with mid-range camping and go in for a grab to start a juggle or combo. You'll probably take a bit of damage (10-15%) doing so, but the damage you do back should make up for it, especially if your opponent sucks at avoiding successive grabs. (YAY for Oli's amazing grab range and temporal hitbox!)

 

[Llumys]

Mmkay, someone just need to write a summary for the match-up now.

... and all the other match-ups we've covered. <_<;

I'm up for compiling all the accepted information in the thread, but it'd be done Sunday the earliest.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Alright. I invited the falcos into the thread but I don't know if they're going to come. If they do, great. If they don't, isn't a big deal. Llumys, I agree that having a summary of what we've discussed in each of the matchup discussions would be great. If you would like to sum up what has been discussed in this thread, or if someone else would (Dan, perhaps, since you play kismet often). Same goes for the others. I have too much on my plate to write satisfactory matchup summaries, though I will definitely look through them to edit and add things and whatnot.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Olimar does not get a regrab off of falco after a dthrow, the falco can merely jump out of it. I instead usmash him afterwards since there isn't much else I can do, and follow his DI to a uair since he falls fast. Keep in mind though that you don't want to go for the grab combo on stock 1, though, because you'll most likely be at low damage as well, and we all know what being close to falco at low percents means >.<

 

[Llumys]

I always thought he could re-grab once, but I wouldn't be surprised he could escape if he SDIs perfectly.

 

[Noa.]

I'm sure that if we dthrow him at 0 we can regrab him at least once, maybe twice.

So lets move on to another discussion.

 

[Llumys]

I definitely don't think we can re-grab him twice. Someone should test.

 

[Denti]

I've never had a falco get out of down throw to down throw at 0% unless i screwed up and miss timed it. XD but you can think whatever you like, even if they can get out they never have for me, and i'll still always plan to do it


Llumys add into the match up thing your writing that jab is a good idea at close range. i've been talking to falco mains and they have said jab is good because it stops their grab and they've added that they can't stop our down smash unless they defend it(shield or spot dodge). at CG percents for olimar, (0-45%) i'll jab to avoid their Chain grab but then after i'm out of CG percent i'll mix it up between down smash and jab.

 

[Noa.]

I think that Falco has a slight advantage in this matchup. It's very even, but Falco does just has it a little easier. Still not a bad matchup at all.

Share your ratios to finish this matchup.

 

[Denti]

I'm comfortable with not always rounding match up statistics, but the idea of this match up is even just falco is a better character so either 55-45 falco or 53-47? lol i don't think it's completely even, but it's nothing too hard, just if both characters play perfect i believe falco wins. Olimar has to play harder in this match up to win and get those kills imo (catching falco to kill him is very hard compared to killing olimar :0 stupid birdy)

 

[Llumys]

Ratios?

55:45, fairly dependent on stages.

 

[Denti]

speaking of stages, how is RC with this match up? is it wise for me to take them there? because I generally do

 

[Llumys]

Also, I find jab to be too risky.

Sure, it's faster than their grab by 2 frames, but if they read it, you're done.

 

[Dabuz]

Also, I find jab to be too risky.

Sure, it's faster than their grab by 2 frames, but if they read it, you're done.

little advice, if you are ever in jab range, uptilt, jab doesn't have enough priority to beat out falco, uptilt does sometimes and the lasting hitbox is tricky

 

[Llumys]

Yeah. They'll catch on, of course.

 

[M@v]

I think this either even, or slight olimar advantage. You may not want to go by me though; I ****ing suck in this matchup with Falco for some reason. I've never beaten an olimar in tourney before :/. So I'll be reading through this whole thread for sure.

 

[Llumys]

Is there any specific Olimar main giving you trouble?

 

[IcyLight]

hey m@v, your name is familiar...are you the fox i versed in pools @ apex? also, i can agree with 45-55 falco favor just because of his advantage when he does get close. other than that i would probably say 50-50

 

[DanGR]

I think Oli has the potential to have a very solid advantage over Falco if you do everything correctly.

Dealing with lasers.
Avoiding/punishing phantasm use.
Edge guarding properly.
Spacing correctly against Falco's close combat.
DIing the spike and punishing.
etc.

Maybe I'm crazy.

 

[Llumys]

I think that's possible.

 

[Noa.]

So the matchup is a slight advantage for Falco for now, right?

55:45 Falco. Any disagreements? We need to move on with this.

 

[Llumys]

I'm fairly certain we all agree to those numbers. It's even, but Falco may have a slight advantage.

I think we can begin another character while the summaries are being written.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I personally feel it's 50:50, completely even, but by popular vote, 45:55 it is, which is fine, I can see it.