• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Weekly Character Discussion: Snake

BlueTerrorist

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
720
Location
New York
Ok I'm doing this earlier because something came up that I have to attend to. So I'm doing this earlier, but as usual it will last a week. If the discussions finish early, then I may host a new one earlier. Well here's the rules as usual:

- DO NOT SPAM IN THIS THREAD!!!
- Do not create another topic for Snake, discuss it here or I'll see to it your thread is closed at Sonic speed. No need to spam the boards with something similar to this.
- I know there will be debates, I only ask that you keep it civil. Tell the people you bring from the other boards that too. Any hint of flaming and stupidity that said person will be dealt with swiftly, I'm not gonna tolerate that mess here.

I say these are some fair rules right? Remember intelligence makes a discussion strong . Well anyway, what do you have to say about Snake?
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
963
Location
Chicago,IL
NNID
MasterHavik
Ok, I have two questions about Snake.

1. How do you put the guy away? The man stay around 170 to 180 percent.

2. Some of the snakes I play camp like crazy. How do I get around this camping with snake?
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
1,545
Location
MN
1. You need to gimp him. His cypher is very vulnerable to Sonic gimping it so you gotta be sure to at least rack up damage when he's trying that.

2. Generally I would say you should close the distance fast so Snake can't start pulling explosives. That's not to say you attack him or get within his attack range, you just need to be close enough so that if he tries to set something up you can quickly attack him out of it.

I'm not an expert on Snake at all so people that have played against him more can probably give you more information. The only thing I'm confident about is that Snake's recovery can be gimped.
 

Blapius

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
86
Location
Brandon, FL
NNID
blapius
3DS FC
1435-6036-1685
Don't be too proud to do the Cypher Grab. Your opponent picked Snake; he had it coming.
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
1,545
Location
MN
^A lot of Snakes try to come in far above the level to prevent that though. It's pretty funny when they can't/don't though and you just grab-release them out of their cypher.
 

Blapius

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
86
Location
Brandon, FL
NNID
blapius
3DS FC
1435-6036-1685
^A lot of Snakes try to come in far above the level to prevent that though. It's pretty funny when they can't/don't though and you just grab-release them out of their cypher.
Oh, no doubt. Snakes know you want to land the grab, so they do everything they can do avoid it. This is why moves such as Dsmash, off-stage Dair and other horizontal-knockback moves are so strong against Snake in this instance: they force Snake to do a near-stage Cypher that opens them for a cheap grab.

Edit: Speaking of specific moves, I've seen a lot of Snakes who like to spot-dodge/roll/dash attack/OOS into Utilt. The move kills really low, especially if it isn't stale at all. Be aware that the hitbox extends a ridiculous range in front of Snake, as well as a fair bit behind him.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
6,966
Location
GA
Play like Sonic has no kill moves.

Don't go staling your kill moves especially around 90+%, so you can kill from the appropriate place at 120-140%, and less if you're by the edge.
------------
When up against an aerial Snake, be aware of the N-air and B-air. N-air will usually be done to attack in front, and B-air will usually be done when you're behind. D-air seems to be used to attack you when grounded, and U-air more if you're both high up or from the ledge.

The majority of Snake players I come across seem to be pretty stupid and don't pay attention to landing lag, especially when recovering from Cypher, so when they're falling, try to bait and p-shield a B-air for a grab. If they catch on, then plan for an airdodge, since that's about as far as he can do.

Alright, time for some move vs move stuff:
- D-air, F-air, N-air, ASC and side-B all go through mortar missiles. Homing Attack sometimes targets the missiles but you'll bounce off them, usually saving you from a u-tilt.

- N-air, B-air, HA, and ASC all knock Snake off of Cypher.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
963
Location
Chicago,IL
NNID
MasterHavik
I have another question about Snake. What about the a chain, some his smash, and godly titls? What does a Sonic player do then?
 

ROOOOY!

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
3,118
Location
Lincolnshire, England.
NNID
Gengite
3DS FC
5456-0280-5804
There is no way past his up tilt ;_; Seriously, it's my most hated move ever.
A lot of his smashes are TOO SLOW. Lol if you get hit by forward smash, and if they're Snake Dashing with the U smash shield the first hit (when he hits you, pops you into the air) then quickly Bthrow him. Pummeling or doing a different throw would get you hit by the mortary thing he fires.
If he's holding down A jump behind him and fsmash, give the stealthy bitch a taste of his own medicine lol
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
From playing Proud I can say its not as terrible as I initially thought.

Snake has an advantage of course due to his incredible range and power, but once you get him into the air he is much less difficult to deal with of course.

Anyways best thing to do against Snake.
Stay close. Of course this sounds crazy but it is the best thing.

For one you do not want him setting up mines and C4.
Nor do you want him chucking those grenades at you since any good snake will cook them so you can't toss them back.

Make sure you keep him in the air, and use your Uair, U smash, Utilt and everything else to keep him up there as long as possible.
once in the air he cannot do anything but drop C4 and Nikita which are far too slow to do anything.

Whenever he uses that cypher harass him. Fair~Fair racks up damage, a well timed Nair can knock him off it, just do whatever you can to keep him up aerially.

Save your your kill moves specifically your Bair because its the most reliable kill move in this matchup.


@Roy: The U tilt is far more avoidable than his Ftilt which strikes out twice. The best way to know you are within range is if you know he can hit you with his fist during the second part of his Ftilt.
As soon as that second F tilt hit lands roll away, you want to constantly be in range to punish him whenever he tries to set up but just outside so that he can't land his jabs or tilts on you.

Either way this matchup is tough and the best stage to face him is anywhere without a platform. Otherwise he will camp you.
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
1,545
Location
MN
^I disagree with that. Saving your kill moves against Snake will probably mean you won't be knocking him off the edge very much which is the easiest place to rack up damage on Snake. Even if your "kill moves" don't actually hit him to a blast line, if they can knock him off the stage you're going to get an opportunity for free damage or a possible kill.

As a few people mentioned, Snake's air game is not fantastic and his big, slow stature makes him relatively easy to chase should the momentum begin swinging in your favor (assuming no explosives have been set to interfere with that).
 

MarKO X

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Brooklyn
NNID
legendnumberM
3DS FC
2595-2072-2390
Switch FC
531664639998
Here's a couple of things I do and find effective when I'm Sonic fighting Snake:

1) Pick up grenades and toss them back. If you're bold enough to do this and do this well, Snake will think twice about tossing those.
2) If Snake uses the Cypher from below the stage, use fair to rack up damage.
3) If Snake uses the Cypher from above the stage, spring up and delay your attack. You might have to pay a price first to see what your particular Snake will do against you, as some will airdodge (as you will can punish their unnecessary airdodge because you didn't attack), while some will attack (then you know that the Snake is aggressive in the air and you either don't attack or find a mindgame to counter that).
4) If you play a Snake that loves dash attack usmashes, it can be punished with a quick grab if they don't slide far enough... IF they don't slide far enough. Otherwise, let it go and try another set up.
5) Misslies are TOOOOO EASY TO PUNISH with the speed of Sonic. If for some reason Snake fires a missile without having an explosive defense in front of him, do something about it.
6) Spot dodge his tilts, then counter with a tilt (not a smash, a tilt).
7) Sonic usmash beats Snake's fsmash, as they both have pre-lag. Of course, if you're that late with it, you'll get hit anyway. Hyphen Smash him then.

edit: I've been reading through the posts and I see that a lot of people say that Snake's aerials aren't that incredible... from my experiences I find that hard to believe. His multihitting nair will crush you, especially if you time an airdodge wrong, his fair can spike you big time, and his bair, uair, and dair will almost always beat out your aerials. Please correct me if I'm wrong, cause then that means I just need to get my spacing game up... oh wait, did i mention that his nair, bair, and uair have impressive range in their respective directions? (of course, nair fires forward, not "neutrally" if you will.)
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
1,545
Location
MN
^No one's saying they don't have power; you obviously do not want any part of Snake's aerial attacks. However, the lag is definitely abusable, and if you can predict/bait an aerial you are in much better shape than if you try to roll with him on the ground.
 

MarKO X

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Brooklyn
NNID
legendnumberM
3DS FC
2595-2072-2390
Switch FC
531664639998
ohhh. the lag on his aerials... now that makes much more sense. thanx.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
6,966
Location
GA
Here's a couple of things I do and find effective when I'm Sonic fighting Snake:

1) Pick up grenades and toss them back. If you're bold enough to do this and do this well, Snake will think twice about tossing those.
2) If Snake uses the Cypher from below the stage, use fair to rack up damage.
3) If Snake uses the Cypher from above the stage, spring up and delay your attack. You might have to pay a price first to see what your particular Snake will do against you, as some will airdodge (as you will can punish their unnecessary airdodge because you didn't attack), while some will attack (then you know that the Snake is aggressive in the air and you either don't attack or find a mindgame to counter that).
4) If you play a Snake that loves dash attack usmashes, it can be punished with a quick grab if they don't slide far enough... IF they don't slide far enough. Otherwise, let it go and try another set up.
5) Misslies are TOOOOO EASY TO PUNISH with the speed of Sonic. If for some reason Snake fires a missile without having an explosive defense in front of him, do something about it.
6) Spot dodge his tilts, then counter with a tilt (not a smash, a tilt).
7) Sonic usmash beats Snake's fsmash, as they both have pre-lag. Of course, if you're that late with it, you'll get hit anyway. Hyphen Smash him then.
1- Be wary of Snake's grenades if he only has one out. He can take out a second one and use it to force you to drop it, which can mean that if he drops right before you attack again, instead of throwing it, it will drop and when you press [A], you'll pick it up again or attack it and make it explode. If anything, abuse his 2nd grenade, or if you pick up the first one, be wary of the Snake's actions.

2- If Snake is below the stage, I tend to late-N-air (if he's far) or drop behind and go for a stage spike.
On another note, it's possible to grab Snake out of cypher before he even airdodges, if you can grab him as his head is passing the edge.

3- If the Snake is above the stage, like, really high, you have to be predictive, as previously stated.

What you can do sometimes is move ahead of him and try to use that amazing Spring>U-air-priority to catch him on his way down, but time it so you hit towards the end of the rise. Most people will try to outprioritize you, and may get caught, but if they're smart and airdodge, then at least you can try catching him again.

If you can predict about 3 seconds ahead, do a reverse spring>lagless D-air landing, then jump on the grounded spring. From here, you can try doing a rising ASC (remember ASC has high knockback, and it can/will kill from that height at over 100%) or try to catch him with a side-B, and out of either one, go into a U-air>spring U-air combo.

4- If you're close to Snake and he's doing the mortar slide, you can turn around, shield his initial mortar, and grab him as he passes you. I believe F-tilt works as well. If you're out of range of his initial hit, you can attack him out of it with any attack.

6- Personally I shield grab tilts. But be wary of rolling behind Snake. They tend to prepare for those reactions.
 

Gangsta_inc

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
579
Location
MD
NNID
Combo_Knight
5- Watch out for the missle right after neutral a or f-tilt

for instance Ftilt- shorthop- missle- can bite you in the *** sometimes.

7- it can beat out up smash but not his u-tilt, So watch the distance between you and Snake when hyphen smashing
 

MalcolmM

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
1,565
Location
League of Legends, New Jersey
the cypher grab is not almighty and 99% of snakes have learned to detonate themselves with C4 so please don't rely on that. u can edgeguard snake way harder than standing @ the ledge waiting to grab him.

your going to want to grab....ALOT.it's really a great way to put yourself in control of the match. up throw @ low %s. if you follow his DI you can get an up-smash out of it. If you dont follow his DI and attempt it, you may still hit if they dont DI backwards. everything after that is preference.

if you shield his f-tilt then you do an Ftilt-OOS.

If hes putting up the jab just dash attack right into it and they will clank....and then f-tilt. or if they happen to be ******** and cant see you creeping up next to them, you can d-tilt.

Dont touch his grenades....who cares where they are. your too fast to be bothered by them so let him make fireworks on the stage w/e.

when it comes to pursuing him in the air, a common misconception is that once hes in the air you can just run a train on him. this is false simply because snake can hold a grenade on his way down and give both of you 12%. 12% is nothing to snake, but 10 of those and your ready to die to an up-tilt. So either space your aerials insanely well, take 12%, let him hit the ground or play a terrible snake player....the option is yours.

Aggression in general is good, but you need a mixup against snake because hes incredible @ defense so forcing him to approach or baiting on of his siller attacks is always a pleasant reversal.

The homing attack is the greatest kill move against snake....
Lets say you hit snake off the stage waaaay out there but not @ the blast zone. Well....this is when you do the spin dash jump and homing attack while you are UNDER snake since the HA seems to have an amazingly greater distance when your under people. Snake cannot release his cypher in the first few frames he uses his up-b so its a guarenteed hit (plus u have ur double jump to chase him waaaay out there if he lives from the HA) If I had to pick a move I kill with most often against snake it would be the Homing attack.

Learn how to DI out his moves. The Nair is UP AND AWAY (you should never get hit by every part of this move...its so easy to DI out of). The Up-Smash is left or right. U can get out of the jab combo if u SDI the first hit away from snake.

Beware the up-tilt, although people have given it too much hype on this discussion. It does not hit behind snake. The move hits about as far as links F-tilt...and he doesnt have a sword, but it does not hit behind him. This of course means nothing if your facing anyone good, because you can do a reverse up-tilt OOS, but you might as well make them work a little harder for it, since they MAY make a mistake.

Dont ever use that crappy jab combo sakurai gave us against snake...its just not useful @ all. He can Up-tilt jab shield or spot dodge before you can get the third hit off. That third hit is SO horrible.

in general tho i think its actually one of sonic's better matchups. the once seemingly unstoppable snake has been all figured out. He's not EASY to beat by any means, but i think its somewhere around 60/40 in snakes favor. (which isnt bad for sonic)
 

Blapius

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
86
Location
Brandon, FL
NNID
blapius
3DS FC
1435-6036-1685
Just to qualify my remark, I wasn't suggesting that relying on the Cypher Grab was a viable tactic, merely that one shouldn't hesitate to go for it if the opportunity were to present itself.
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
1,545
Location
MN
Malcolm, you can block Snake's c4 by running into it off the edge. Then Snake falls to his doom :x
 

disguy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
44
Whenever I play snake, I usually stay aggressive because when there's enough distance between us, that's when snake gets all campy. That or he'll set up grenades on the ground so if I try to dash attack, I'll explode when I touch them. I've played my friend who mains snake so many times that I basically know his tendencies, so fighting his snake isn't much of a problem for me.
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
1,545
Location
MN
^The problem isn't in closing the distance. It's quite obvious that Sonic can run circles around Snake (and most people for that matter), but once you get in close to him a good snake will just jab/tilt you to death with the occasional mortar slide. He really doesn't need his explosives to beat Sonic since Sonic has to come to him anyways.

That's why Snake is so difficult. You need to be close to him, but too close and you're in for a world of pain.

EDIT: Also, as another consideration you should always be thinking about how to use Snake's explosives against him. He's a huge target so it's not too difficult to push him into a mine or grenade. Sometimes you can even get him to c4 himself by accident, but that's pretty random.
 

disguy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
44
Yea i'm aware of snake's jab/tilt power that can kill me at like 90% -_-. I also just shield and grab him out of his mortar slides. So yea your right in saying that getting too close to snake is trouble, but just space yourself and you'll be fine. Against snake I always keep an eye out for where his explosives are and sometimes he'll c4 himself because he forgot he planted it there, or the timer runs out and by chance it blows up haha.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
6,966
Location
GA
grab+Pummel with Snake hanging off the edge sets up for so much death.

Oh, especially in Jungle Japes.
 
Top Bottom