Weekly Character Discussion: Metaknight

[BlueTerrorist]

Ok this little thing I'm running here is going to be helping the original match-up thread. All data and opinions about Metaknight will go here untill the week is over. If you visit the other character specific forums, you'll see something like this too. I'm doing this for the communities opinion and better analysis of the match-ups, don't think the match-up thread is just a BT thing. All I ask is to follow these simple rules:

- DO NOT SPAM IN THIS THREAD!!!
- Do not create another topic for Metaknight, discuss it here or I'll see to it your thread is closed at Sonic speed. No need to spam the boards with something similar to this.
- I know there will be debates, I only ask that you keep it civil. Tell the people you bring from the other boards that too. Any hint of flaming and stupidity that said person will be dealt with swiftly, I'm not gonna tolerate that mess here.

I say these are some fair rules right? Remember intelligence makes a discussion strong . Well anyway, what do you have to say about Metaknight? Here's the original analysis:

Metaknight

What to do:
- Use Sonic's homing attack if MK is whoring out his standard A, or you could attack from above.
- Side B's invincibility frames will help here.
- Take advantage of dashing shield and powershielding, you don't know how much this will help you in this battle.
- Above all it's important to NOT BE PREDICTABLE in this fight. Predicting MK helps too if you can do it.
- The tornado is vulnerable on the top. Dropping a spring on him works better to stop the tornado. You could use Dair or Homing Attack but you will get hit out of it if you time it wrong. A note about the spring, if the tornado will turn into his Side B, do this near an edge so MK will SD. Credit goes to whoever found that .
- He can't kill well just like you, so use that famous speed of yours.
- He's small so Nair can help you get in on him.
- Go for vertical KO's if you get the opportunity, you will NEVER gimp a competent MK player. Utilt can kill MK like around 140% if it didn't get stale.

Do Not (The bad):
- Spam spin dashes, he'll usually stop them anyway.
- Mach Tornado is a pain to deal with still, expect MK mains to mix this in with their offense.
- Try to gimp him. Sure he has slow air speed, but he can glide and his Up-b hurts.
- Don't try to get in the air, he will beat you all the time. Stick to the ground most of the time.
- Can't get a vertical KO, you'll have to do it the old fashioned way (Which will take longer due to his recovery). Don't get any of Sonic's kill moves stale, you will need them.

Opinion: MK is gonna be a very hard match for Sonic because of priority alone. Even though he doesn't have alot of kill moves, his options and strengths make up for it. He's small so combo's don't work to well on him. To be victorious, don't fight him head on. If you do, expect to get owned every time. If he tries to chase you from below, just use a spring. Don't go fighting him in the air, he has very fast aerials. Most of your damage your giving MK will usually come from tech chasing him and punishing him. He's light, but he has a very good recovery so edgeguarding him is pointless. You'll have to kill him regularly or try for a vertical KO. A good way to mess with MK players heads is to not attack at all. Use Sonic's speed to fake him out, one time a MK player put up his shield thinking I was gonna attack but I didn't I just ran past him on purpose. That player decided to be reckless and paid a big price for his mistake. So yeah, mess with their heads, they can't catch up to Sonic anyway. Play defensively in this fight, getting aggressive will get you killed and mindgames are a must. Overall, Sonic is at a disadvantage in this battle and you should counterpick if you can. If you're gonna stay as Sonic, just know that it will be a uphill battle before victory.

 

[Tenki]

If you want to keep Metaknight from getting to the edge you need to consider 2 things:
1) How/when to edge-hog
2) Metaknight's recover radius.

If you can, you should pressure option 2 by using your spin dash jump and possibly using a dair or homing attack. This will be the time he is most vulnerable to your gimps since he cannot use his b moves without suiciding. You can beat out his side-b with your fair (or so I've been told) so you can try for that against MKs that are far below the level.

The first option is what you'll be sticking with more though. MK has laggy landing that's pretty easily punishable at the very least by a dashing grab, possibly you could combo him or smash him. For that reason though, most MKs are going to go for the edge, you should try to predict this and edge hog accordingly.

oh, and like with Marth, tap shield whenever you're entering his range. If it powershields, good, now you can grab.

If he doesn't do anything? Grab.

If he starts grabbing you when you do shield approach, then change your approach lol.

You'll make BT sad because you're not discussing this in the matchups thread.

I got a bit of edgeguarding practice against MK today, so I'll only focus on the edgeguard aspect of it.

Ledge:
- If he's persistent with the up-B's, you can keep trying to drop springs on him until he decides to do something else. Space your springs and D-airs so you can pester his ledge jumps/hops with spring and his ledge attack/roll/get-up with a grounded attack.
- You can try to let him complete a shuttle loop then SH-F-air, ASC, or U-air into him (it'll beat his glide attack)
- RISKY ON PAIN OF DEATH: If you think you have his timing down, you can catch him as he drops down with a B-air or F-air.

Off-stage:
- FOOTSTOOL JUMPS. Even MK's have problems after they use 2-3 jumps.
- Remember, even if he has multiple jumps and two glides, he's pressured for space too. He can't up-B if he's too low because he won't be able to climb.
- On the flip side, if he IS in range to recover, you don't want to position yourself for a stage spike (in front of him, lower than platform) or a reverse shuttle loop kill (behind/above him)
- F-airs are pretty for gimping :3

Homing is actually pretty good against meta recovering high up. They will often try to jump over your attack and get hit by it anyway. This means 1 less jump and a bit of knockback.

Also, HOW TO BEAT MK's:
Up-B:
- Drop springs
- Can try D-air, but it will usually result in a hit tradeoff.

Glide attack:
- F-air, U-air, ASC all completely outprioritize it.
- N-air, Fsmash, and other single hit attacks can clang with it.


Side-B:
- F-air totally defeats it
- Spindash sometimes clangs with a hit and moves behind the attack box to knock MK out of it, but it seems rather luckbased.

Down-B
- shield+ grab
- run out of range > spindash

Neutral-B
- Fsmash (tip) and Dsmash all knock MK out of Tornado.
- Every well placed aerial can hit him out of it, but specifically, HA, spring drop, and D-air do the best against it.
- Spindash can clang with/outprioritize a low tornado, but again, it seems a bit luck based.

 

[MalcolmM]

Just some questions to spark discussion...

What is your most common kill against MK?
Do you find yourself feeling that the match is insanely boring and your playstyle is drastically different?
Do you use the D-tilt?
What would you consider your safest move?
How do you punish OOS?
If hes spacing/camping you with fairs how do you get through?
Do the spindash or spin charge play a big part in the matchup or are they basically taken away by MK?
Do platforms help or make things more difficult against him?
Homing attack plays what role in the matchup?

I'm not saying you have to answer them all or anything...these are just some questions I wanted to ask other sonics about the matchup. I hope these questions help...

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I go Beserk Sonic on MK. And spam HA's when the oppurtunity arrises. I don't fight MK often though. Most of my experience is against level ninecpus.....

Off stage fair is you friend.

Tenki,your kinda the expert on Springs,what do you think of trying to drop a spring on MK's up B? If you can predict the move and use it a little early?

 

[Tenki]

I go Beserk Sonic on MK. And spam HA's when the oppurtunity arrises. I don't fight MK often though. Most of my experience is against level ninecpus.....

Off stage fair is you friend.

Tenki,your kinda the expert on Springs,what do you think of trying to drop a spring on MK's up B? If you can predict the move and use it a little early?

If you can't fight anyone offline, fight MK's online (try allisbrawl's chatroom and you might find some good players) and see what the playstyle is really like. Like what happens if they actually edgeguard you or try to predict you.

And yeah, that's kinda what I'm talking about with springs beating his up-B. I usually jump slightly out of range of his forward shuttle look and drop a spring. If he's newly grabbed the edge, then I'll drop it close to him.

 

[FrostByte]

I consider the safest move against Metaknight is the Bair. I have no Idea why, but when I Bairspam against Meta, it usually hits. It could be because the hitbox stays out pretty long and Meta tries to SH fair into the foot.

Dtilt to grab works well, though I will never use the Dtilt while Sonic is at high % as metaknight's Dsmash outranges it and I will be DI-ing incorrectly at the same time.

 

[TwinkleToes]

D-smash seems pretty effective against MK. It can screw with his spacing and the first part of the attack out-prioritizes/clangs with a lot of his attacks.

 

[Browny]

ive seen + got footage of fsmash hitting right through MK's glide attack when i angled it upwards. i dont know if it made any difference, but it got the kill so its all good

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

(feels very stupid for making that vs metaknight thread) sorry about that, well spin shotting seems to confuse any metaknight i play against, it's good for a sneaky edge guard or two.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Usmash owns MK for free.

Seriously though, bthrow>usmash works rather well at lower percents. If they midair dodge, you catch them in the end of it, if they try to attack, you outprioritize them (wtf? srsly?), if they try to jump out, you now have an aerial chase set up.

You can fsmash and ftilt through the tornado. It's hard as hell to do, but feasible if they're being predictable.

If you want to gimp them, hop out, bait the fair/nair/bair, then dair slap them and recover quickly. If they do uair, don't bother trying to get them, if they do dair, dair them for funsies, or try to footstool>spring. If you're trying to gimp him though, you need to be careful. MK can actually fight you in the air, and, even if you don't die, you're probably going to take a good chunk of damage. Make sure to position yourself at the diagonal above him, lest he uses the whorenado to recover.

Bair has nice range, and is one of the few attacks that can beat most of his aerial arsenal. You're not going to want to kill with this move, you need it for damage.

Dthrow techchase is your saviour in this match-up, especially if you can get the lock against them. Also, remember that, if he ever gets to 196% or so for some God-awful reason, you can just uthrow him on any stage that's not Yoshi's Story, and he'll die. :D!

Prolly not Jungle Japes, either.

Try to get him to waste his dsmash while you're at mid-low percents. Fsmash and UpB are easy mode to dodge, but his dsmash is wicked good for killing, and it's normally better to just waste his move than let him get you with it.

Space space space space, don't get outprioritized, etc etc.

I'd give more advice, but I'm lazy and hungry. D:

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Omfg!!!!!!!!

I don't know which guy said we we going to be dead soon,but he was right......XD

MK has a new AT that has completly broken the game!

(from MK char board)

The MetaKnight Infinite Dimensional Cape, the name I guess its being called till I find a catchy-er name, Is a tech that allows Metaknight, and only Metaknight to my knowledge can do.

Basically meta enters his Down-b Animation, were he becomes completely invincible and not to be seen till the move is over, witch you can get distance with it, grab the edge with it, a bunch of goodies with it, even attack out of it!

But this tech, it allows you to stay in the 'disappearing animation' as long as you desire or your arms let you.

First before I spill how to do it, I must tell you how his down - B happens.

I hope by now, everyone knows that Metaknight can travel a short distance with it. But what most people do not know is that, if you were to do it in the air, as you touch the ground, the animation of the move gets extended a tad longer. Witch is how this tech is preformed, basically you make Metaknight go up and down over and over to stay in 1 spot or move around.

How to do it:

First, stay stander on the ground with MK, and prefourm your Down-b, and directly after, and I mean DIRECTLY after, start smashing up C, the up on the c stick, while holding down. What does this allow Metaknight to do? Simple. Here is the physics behind it:

As MK is in his down - B, what I said earlier he touches the ground from being in the air, his down b last longer. So up on the C stick, makes him rise just a very small bit, and when you hold down, he goes back to the ground, thus making the animation last longer.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PdmwKfPchms

 

[Umby]

..........Shit.

 

[Tenki]

oh my KASR.

Alright, time to find a move that outprioritizes it, then a bait.

Then its speed/'weakness' (can he turn around? is he stuck facing a direction? can we pull him off stage for the lulz? hang on the edge?).

[edit]
So I just learned it, I can do the initial extension of the down B somewhat consistently without spamming randomly (by pressing it just once) and I've gone across FD a few times with it.

Things to look out for:
- He has complete control, directionally, while he's invisible. He can weave in, then weave out in a direction as he's coming out, and even move a quick circle.
- It travels as fast as MK's dash.
- Can travel about Sonic's Dash Attack length if done sideways.


PERMANENT weaknesses (exploitable move properties):
- Only seems to attack the reverse direction he's facing? (clarification please)
- FAILS WHEN THERE IS NO GROUND. Like Bowser's infinite jump, he MUST have ground to continue. Except... there is no backwards hop (ala side-B) to save a flubbed cape.
[new additions]
- After his initial down-B+"extension tap", each successive bounce is done with a rather quick tapping rhythm.. If he travels upwards to try to meet a platform, he will be forced to leave the move.
- Questionably a temporary weakness, but to do the IDC, you have to be holding down. This means that he can travel downwards, but it will throw off the timing for the move.
- Another questionable weakness, camera angle. Really.

TEMPORARY weaknesses of the move overcome by practice:
- Very few people know the non-spam rhythm for it yet. Very easy to screw it up and undershoot your target.
- Like all of MK's moves, the edge/ledge is its enemy.
- Holding B forces MK to attack out of it, no matter what.

Counter-weaknesses:
- He may ledge-camp.
- This may be used to force you to the edge. Mindgame.
- Feint of Dimensional Cape attack > Tornado :[

Yep. Haven't checked move priority, but it's got some grabbable lag IF he attacks. You can run faster than it can chase you. I guess go for the edge/toward the direction the MK was facing if you see him do it, since he attacks backwards AFAIK. Haven't fought a MK who can do it, but it seems very reflexive, and feinting > reflexive people. If he tries to chase you, there's a risk of him suiciding.

Considering that this move attacks backwards, it's probably meant to be a defensive/retreating move in the first place, and the 'infinite dimensional cape' will probably be an idc move used to retreat situationally, since it seems to be pretty horrible/exploitable as an actual offensive attack move. Or if it is used as an attack move, it'll have to be mindgamed, like down-B > bait spotdodge/powershield/roll > move and punish with DC attack accordingly.

[edit]
Thanks to Samper for bringing up the platform thing.

 

[samper]

So now Metaknight can make himself invincible at will? Huh...fun.

So if he can only use it on the ground can he fall from one platform to another/walk off an edge while behind the cape? Because if he can't then defending against this move would be as easy as moving off of the platform/ground that he's on to some other level (and since just about every stage has at least one platform that would be a reasonable defense I think). Of course if Tenki's right and its a largely defensive move then you dodging it doesn't seem to be as important as him avoiding all of your stuff with it...

 

[TwinkleToes]

Counter-ability aside, this is still some gay ass mother fucking shit.

I'm gonna mosie on over to the MK and tactical boards and see what else I can find.

EDIT: Seems like Sonic can deal with it somewhat. If you see Metaknight do this, run to the edge he was facing when he initiated the attack and wait. If he appears right next to you his strike shouldn't hit you and you can grab/hit him safely. If he goes past you to hit you he'll suicide over the edge. As far as I can see, this basically gives MK the ability to freely retreat on a platform, but as an attack I think it's definitely got some glaring weaknesses that Sonic can exploit. Slower characters might get screwed though because of an inability to reposition themselves to a spot of safety in time, but even then just jumping upwards and using an aerial should be good enough to stop it. I think a lot of people are just being blown away by the infinite invincibility (which is understandable) and not considering how to overcome it.

And if MK does this to infinitely stall you can just homing stall under the level and call the MK player a dickface :/

 

[TwinkleToes]

And one more thing, after a while your eyes get used to following MK when he's invisible based on how the camera moves. It's not a science and if for some incredibly bizarre reason you're playing with a fixed camera it won't help you to make note of this.

Still, you can consider baiting the attack and using your arsenal of b attacks or simply a short hopped aerial to counter him (if you're feeling frisky you can even go for a shield grab). IMO springing is a pretty safe counter to this although the potential for counter attack is essentially limited to spring->dair.

 

[Browny]

i suspect a grounded spring will stop this...

someone investigate plz

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Nice, now MK has an infinite stall with a crappy move. Thank God it's not his tornado. Just run away and wait, srsly.

 

[Tenki]

i suspect a grounded spring will stop this...

someone investigate plz

not while he's invisible.

Or if it does, he doesn't 'bounce' high enough while he's invisible to get caught by the spring.

 

[TwinkleToes]

I think that would be a worse option actually. If he springs after you he can possibly uair you.
There's not much need for any fancy extra stuff as far as I can tell to counter the infinite cape.

BT, I think we've hashed MK over as much as we're going to. I think you (or someone who's willing) should write up a new entry for MK and we can be done with this for now.

I say we move on to a new character discussion.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Screw it, I'll do the write-up myself. If anyone has any changes they think should be made to it after it's done I'll go back over it.

BT, I'd like you to start a new match-up thread tonight. I'll do it if you don't by midnight :O

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Screw it, I'll do the write-up myself. If anyone has any changes they think should be made to it after it's done I'll go back over it.

BT, I'd like you to start a new match-up thread tonight. I'll do it if you don't by midnight :O

Don't demand, people have lives you know .

Ok back on subject, I'm already aware of the new tech with MK so don't worry. Now as far as the match-up thread is concerned, I'm already working on that. All match-ups will be re-written, but do know that it's gonna take time I don't want anything false in there. It's my fault, I should have put up a disclaimer to let everyone know. I should have Metaknight done later on tomorrow.

You'll like the new format, something like this:

Match-up analysis (Now without the Do's and Don'ts, just straight to the point)
other people's analysis
Vids of fighting said character (This was a very popular idea so it's here to stay)

As for weekly discussions, it's almost the end of the week. There's no point in making another right now, but if you guys want more than one character to discuss, then I'll host said characters next week early sunday. I'll host 3 a week tops, they better be active or I'm just going to host only one again. I'm starting it at the beginning of the week so that there will be time to discuss and also bring anybody who plays that character there for their view of the match, if any. That and it's easier to keep track on when to host the new ones so one full week like how the other boards are doing. All this while i'm doing new or remodeling write-ups, I should do it along with the weekly discussions so it can be accurate.

So lay off with the impatience, if anything is false in the thread, it's going to be me that's going to be nagged at by the others not anyone else.

 

[TwinkleToes]

I don't see why there wouldn't be activity or why there'd be false information. We're all pretty quick to correct one another and it's not like we're doing anything else (look at all the spamming we're doing).

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Only do one or two a week, and I can put in my two cents.

 

[MarKO X]

I tried the Infinite cape ****, and here's what I've got from it:

The infinite cape stall isn't as bad as it seems. One problem with it is that it can be used to edgehog, but that shouldn't be too bad of a problem considering Sonic has pretty **** good recoveries. Another problem is that it's pretty **** fast, so let's say that ur on the right side of the FD and you get smashed to the left, this will OFFICIALLY be MKs WD to get over there in a hurry to edgeguard your ***.

The one good thing about it is that it's kinda hard to change direction with it (since you gotta constantly smash up on the c-stick and press the left stick to move at the same time). I doubt that this will be something to truly worry about in a battle against MK when he outprioritizes you in nearly every other way anyway. Until something else pops up about it, I don't think this is something to get scared of.