WE LIVIN' DOE! A Mario resurrection thread ft: A Rookie

[Zalak]

so I guess I'll post this in this thread:

what resources would you all like to see? I would like for this forum to be not-so-dead, and the best way to do that is probably content-creation. also I'm selfish and want to improve as a player. I know schmooblion has been doing a lot of data stuff too, which is awesome.

obviously I'm not a notable player, so everything I do should be scrutinized. but, I've been playing for a long time (~6 years) and have done a lot of theory-crafting stuff. I just suck at application.

If you truly suck at application, I would recommend either looking for a sparring partner who is slightly better than you, or someone willing to teach you who is much better than you. If you play regularly against strong opponents, you'll be able to work on applying your techniques. YOU JUST GOTTA STICK WITH IT!

 

[Ocean]

[deleted.]

 

[kingPiano]

like I said, I've been playing a long time, most of that time being spent with the best players in my state. if it was just that, there wouldn't be an issue, lol. at this point I've burnt out on competing and have just been trying to make the people around me better. thank you for the advice though.


good idea, I'll do that. analyses are fun. I'll do a handful of different mario sets.

Do you have recorded sets or streams? I always love watching different Marios, sorry if I hadn't heard of you before sometimes vids are hard to find unless they are VGBC or some other big stream org.

 

[Ocean]

[deleted.]

 

[kingPiano]

it's completely reasonable that you haven't heard of me, I'm not important. I don't have much public footage, for a handful of reasons:

• the state I'm from (NC) only very recently started having a regular stream.
• I moved from the center of the state to the mountains, so I'm pretty far away from all the action now.
• I don't exclusively play mario, I also play ice climbers, and they are my better character.
• I don't enter stuff much anymore. (washed up johns etc.)

however, my crew of folk recently gained the ability to stream, so I'll probably do some self-analysis and post the sets here. I also was on stream a bunch at the last big NC tournament (Bad Moon Rising) but none of it was tournament so I don't think any of it got saved, sadly.

also, The Cape moved here fairly recently, so I have gotten a good bit of practice with him. he was my main inspiration to pick up mario, so I'll probably do a set or two of his also.

Ah wow that's really cool. I'm a bit jealous.

 

[a rookie]

it's completely reasonable that you haven't heard of me, I'm not important. I don't have much public footage, for a handful of reasons:

• the state I'm from (NC) only very recently started having a regular stream.
• I moved from the center of the state to the mountains, so I'm pretty far away from all the action now.
• I don't exclusively play mario, I also play ice climbers, and they are my better character.
• I don't enter stuff much anymore. (washed up johns etc.)

however, my crew of folk recently gained the ability to stream, so I'll probably do some self-analysis and post the sets here. I also was on stream a bunch at the last big NC tournament (Bad Moon Rising) but none of it was tournament so I don't think any of it got saved, sadly.

also, The Cape moved here fairly recently, so I have gotten a good bit of practice with him. he was my main inspiration to pick up mario, so I'll probably do a set or two of his also.

Wow man! You're lucky to have The Cape near you :D Hopefully you guys record some! Does he main Mario/Doc anymore? Or did he switch mains? Just curious.

 

[Ocean]

[deleted.]

 

[GeZ]

I've been having trouble playing against players who are much better than me, and while that sounds super sensical at first, I've got an explanation.

I'd say there are about three levels of player at my locals. The vaguely alright people, who have a chosen character but not really a good grasp of fundamentals, competent players, who're consistent with fundamentals/ combo trees, and really solid players, who are mostly Fox mains (and one weegee).

I bop the vaguely alright players, keep up or lose slightly to the competent players, but get walked all over by really solid players. Like I have this foundation of understanding interactions in the neutral, and I can play the neutral against people who are around my level, but players who are much better than me have too dominant of neutral games and I can't figure out what to do about it.

Anyone got advice for playing in the neutral? Poke with Ftilt/ jab/ Fsmash more?

Also, as a side note, I've seen A Rookie use full hop Dair > aerial, to good effect, and I used it a few times at locals, but I got bopped a few times for throwing it out. Are their specific situations for it, or what's the deal with using it?

 

[a rookie]

I've been having trouble playing against players who are much better than me, and while that sounds super sensical at first, I've got an explanation.

I'd say there are about three levels of player at my locals. The vaguely alright people, who have a chosen character but not really a good grasp of fundamentals, competent players, who're consistent with fundamentals/ combo trees, and really solid players, who are mostly Fox mains (and one weegee).

I bop the vaguely alright players, keep up or lose slightly to the competent players, but get walked all over by really solid players. Like I have this foundation of understanding interactions in the neutral, and I can play the neutral against people who are around my level, but players who are much better than me have too dominant of neutral games and I can't figure out what to do about it.

Anyone got advice for playing in the neutral? Poke with Ftilt/ jab/ Fsmash more?

Also, as a side note, I've seen A Rookie use full hop Dair > aerial, to good effect, and I used it a few times at locals, but I got bopped a few times for throwing it out. Are their specific situations for it, or what's the deal with using it?

Regarding using the FH dair. There's only two occasions I'll use it and you can watch any match to confirm what I'm about to say.

1. Use it as a defensive option so they can't approach me in the air. Basically I do FH dair in place or fading back if I want a couple seconds to think or slow them down since I can tell they're over aggressive in the air. You can also follow up w/ a fireball on the way down to cover your landing a little better.

2. I use it as a read to catch when my opponent wants to jump(usually works w/ a correct read and timing) and combo them for a quick %.

If you're having trouble in the neutral game vs people better than you, that's understandable. If they're mostly Fox's, there's no reason for you not to approach w/ a shield. Think about risk reward. If they do swing(upsmash/fsmash/messed up shield pressure), grab them and chain throw/tech chase/combo. But if they do grab you while you shield, what do they get? Almost nothing. Up throw up air isn't a true combo, so ALWAYS jump out of it. Make sure to practice the timing. If they decide to downthrow, it's still tough for them since they have to tech chase/make a read. So running up shielding is a great idea, but don't do it 100% since a great player will know to just keep grabbing. Mix that up w/ a ftilt/fsmash/WD in/up air/etc. Also, if Fox is overaggressive and you can smell a nair approach, Mario's retreating fair beats Fox SH nair(remember this). Throw fireballs in neutral, make them move around it/think about it, while you inch your way closer. Since you have 20XX, I suggest you practice chain throwing and throw all your pride away. Might as well do it since we have the tools :D For Luigi, the neutral is weird, but if I can beat ROFL and give Eddy some trouble, you can do it as well. Shoot fireballs since Luigi has to approach w/ a WD and keep him out w/ dairs/fsmashes/ftilts. Since he's Luigi, go ALL THE WAY out there if possible and edge guard him off stage w/ a fair since he can't recover too well if you do that or cape his side b or bair him for his troubles. This is directed when he does a side b recovery and is in lag btw .

 

[GeZ]

Good **** dude, thanks. I'll work on applying stuff. I've got a while to go before I catch up to my scene, but that's the SoCal life.

 

[GeZ]

Got mad nerd training done today. Played against my usual training partner, and then a really technically sound player for a few hours. Impressions that I got out of fighting all his characters is that I don't mind the Falcon MU so much, but Falco feels nightmarish and my thought process gets smothered by lasers, and Fox takes a lot of feeling out, in the neutral.

My combo game on other characters is improving, but I feel like the only extended things I can do on Fox and Falco is chain grab. Exploring different options in the neutral is fun though. WD Fsmash is super sick, and feeling my opponent out and connecting it is probably my strongest point right now.

Tips for comboing space animals in general? What should I try leading with, or catching them with in the neutral to lead to big damage? When I'm chain grabbing and I get them to around 75%-80%, how should I try to end it? Is Nair the most reliable and if so, should I just usually do that, or try and get an Fsmash?

And thanks for the shielding in neutral advice, A Rookie. Definitely worked wonders for having me not get bopped by random junk.

 

[a rookie]

Got mad nerd training done today. Played against my usual training partner, and then a really technically sound player for a few hours. Impressions that I got out of fighting all his characters is that I don't mind the Falcon MU so much, but Falco feels nightmarish and my thought process gets smothered by lasers, and Fox takes a lot of feeling out, in the neutral.

My combo game on other characters is improving, but I feel like the only extended things I can do on Fox and Falco is chain grab. Exploring different options in the neutral is fun though. WD Fsmash is super sick, and feeling my opponent out and connecting it is probably my strongest point right now.

Tips for comboing space animals in general? What should I try leading with, or catching them with in the neutral to lead to big damage? When I'm chain grabbing and I get them to around 75%-80%, how should I try to end it? Is Nair the most reliable and if so, should I just usually do that, or try and get an Fsmash?

And thanks for the shielding in neutral advice, A Rookie. Definitely worked wonders for having me not get bopped by random junk.

When you get them to around 75-80%, it's probably best to:
- nair(if they DI close to an edge)
- up air(if they DI away just to try to get a follow up, hopefully they DI in when you hit them, but if not, tech chase?)
- angle fsmash upward(tested as I'm typing this) works if they do slight DI left or right
- uptilt(if they don't DI, into WD(if necessary) into uptilt repeat or nair/up air [tested this right now as well, up tilt is a true combo, just gotta WD into them if they DI left/right]

And no problem, anything I can help you with, just ask (:

 

[kaptinkillem]

Hey guys, I love mario, and I'm starting to take him more seriously as a secondary to my falco, I think I might use him as a secondary for the doc matchup because I really just don't like the doc falco matchup.

Anyways I have two real questions:

1. How do I use Marios jab? I've been trying double, but it feels like it's never safe on hit, and triple jab seems kinda mediocre.

2. I'm really not sure how to handle the neutral game in the mario doc matchup, I'm naturally a more agressive player, but it feels like I get stuffed by pills and crouch cancel, and when I do get a hit at early percents, like a uair or and uptilt it feels like it never leads to anything, I even get naired out of down throw a lot.

Thanks guys! Stay awesome!

 

[GeZ]

Mario combos way better than doc, but you don't get to start stuff until you've racked up some percent. You can still be aggressive early on, but it has to be a lot more structured. Neutral game involves a lot of spacing and poking with Ftilt, jabs, and Fsmash on a good read, or in a trap situation. If you're getting CC'd a lot just outspace with stuff. Doc's grab range, like Mario's, is poopy butts.

in regards to jabs, at low percents getting the three hits and then doing a small WD back keeps you from getting grabbed, so that's free percent and keeps you in neutral. Depending on the character you're fighting, jab1 and jab2 lead to Dsmash at mid to high percents.

 

[T-Skittle]

Hey new Mario player here, I have been playing him for about six months, but been playing for about a 1 1/2 years in total. Not sure if this is the place to post or ask this but I was just wondering what are some of my bad habits are? I live in an a relatively new scene so there are no players much better than me who can offer me advice, in fact in melee I am top 5 and one of the people who started the scene here last march ^_^
1) vs. sheik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUANCG2rV-I
2) vs. falcon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viQPE0hRrZM
3) vs falco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOZamUHB5Ck (I was super happy about game 2, my first 4-stock in tournament!)

 

[GeZ]

Hey new Mario player here, I have been playing him for about six months, but been playing for about a 1 1/2 years in total. Not sure if this is the place to post or ask this but I was just wondering what are some of my bad habits are? I live in an a relatively new scene so there are no players much better than me who can offer me advice, in fact in melee I am top 5 and one of the people who started the scene here last march ^_^
1) vs. sheik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUANCG2rV-I
2) vs. falcon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viQPE0hRrZM
3) vs falco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOZamUHB5Ck (I was super happy about game 2, my first 4-stock in tournament!)

You just need overall smoother play, though there are a few things you should touch up, besides knowing what options are best for what situations.

You approach really recklessly, which a good player would just shield grab every time. You full hop in the neutral a lot, and random Fsmash, and go for weird stuff like full hope Nair, or double jump Fair. Focus on the neutral game more, and what Mario wants to be doing when his opponent is at certain percents. DD more, bait more, grab more, and know your grab followups.

I think your play doesn't need too much focused dissection right now though. You know how to push buttons, you just need to be more comfortable/ fluid. This means understanding what options are bad at early percents and good in place of them. Watching A Rookie and KoopaTroopa will help with understanding Mario's neutral game, and n0ne does a good job showing off how aggressive and read heavy Mario can be.

 

[T-Skittle]

You just need overall smoother play, though there are a few things you should touch up, besides knowing what options are best for what situations.

You approach really recklessly, which a good player would just shield grab every time. You full hop in the neutral a lot, and random Fsmash, and go for weird stuff like full hope Nair, or double jump Fair. Focus on the neutral game more, and what Mario wants to be doing when his opponent is at certain percents. DD more, bait more, grab more, and know your grab followups.

I think your play doesn't need too much focused dissection right now though. You know how to push buttons, you just need to be more comfortable/ fluid. This means understanding what options are bad at early percents and good in place of them. Watching A Rookie and KoopaTroopa will help with understanding Mario's neutral game, and n0ne does a good job showing off how aggressive and read heavy Mario can be.

Thanks a ton for the tips I will definitely work on these things and I have started to notice them in my play as well. Although I do have a few questions:
1. What do you mean smoother/fluid play, smoother movement? I like to mess around with other characters a lot, do you think that would make me less fluid with mario?
2. What should I do about shield grabbing, I'm not gonna lie I think this is my weakest point, I feel Like I get shield grabbed a ton? I have practiced doing cross-up aerials on shield and have tried practice spacing, but not sure exactly what I should do to improve here.
3. Ok now with neutral I live in a small scene with not many good players, so how should I practice neutral? It seems difficult if I am not playing against players who have a strong neutral game, or is watching matches my best bet here for learning?

 

[GeZ]

Thanks a ton for the tips I will definitely work on these things and I have started to notice them in my play as well. Although I do have a few questions:
1. What do you mean smoother/fluid play, smoother movement? I like to mess around with other characters a lot, do you think that would make me less fluid with mario?
2. What should I do about shield grabbing, I'm not gonna lie I think this is my weakest point, I feel Like I get shield grabbed a ton? I have practiced doing cross-up aerials on shield and have tried practice spacing, but not sure exactly what I should do to improve here.
3. Ok now with neutral I live in a small scene with not many good players, so how should I practice neutral? It seems difficult if I am not playing against players who have a strong neutral game, or is watching matches my best bet here for learning?

Fluidity, in my opinion, comes with playing the game a lot. It might come faster if you focus on a character, but I wouldn't say that's mandatory for playing more fluidly. I would hazard though, that if you want to improve at the game at the fastest pace you can, sticking it out with one character is the way to go. What I meant specifically though, and it's something that I'm personally working on as well, is knowing what you want to do after what you're currently doing. To explain with a situation, say you are Uthrow chaingrabbing Fox on battlefield. He DI's onto a platform and techs. Good fluidity, would be understanding that the Fox is going to tech on the platform, and reacting/ reading his tech and continuing your aggression.
It honestly just boils down to having a plan though. Say your opponent dash attacks the back of your shield. You can't shield grab, so instead you Nair out of shield. Instead of just breaking his aggression though, you push your advantage, and go for a tech chase, off of your Nair. Keeping this fluidity up, and having some sort of constant, competent, action, will keep your opponent thinking on their feet, as the game will become a constant series of interactions, rather than interactions with space and time in between them. A good player to watch for this is n0ne, because he's got a hyper aggressive game plan. Whenever the opponent techs he reacts or reads, and goes for something. If he's walling the opponent out with Bair's and one connects, he tries to get a grab or further combo off of it.

I think that getting shield grabbed is a good show of how tight your offensive game is. Mario has a lot of methods of being aggressive without risking getting shield grabbed, like cross up Uair, late Uair into jabs, well spaced Fair, or fadeaway Fair/ Uair, though spaced aerials will only protect you from shield grab against characters who don't have gross grab ranges, like Marth. Honestly, you could benefit from being more grounded. Something important to understand about smash, is leaving the ground takes away some of your options, and makes your mobility much less accessible. Spending more time, DD'ing, poking with Ftilt, applying some jab pressure, and in general flexing with grounded options will make your game tighter.

You can sort of get a feel for neutral without even playing against the best of players, you'll just have to fine tune those options once you play against people with tighter games. In general the neutral consists of safe options, like hitting with the tip of Ftilt, jab strings, and crossed up aerials. You can play a more aggressive, defensive, or poking based neutral, or any mix of those. It's super personal preference. I'd say watch A Rookie or KoopaTroopa for neutral. They both have solid neutral games.

 

[T-Skittle]

Yo GeZ thanks for the tips, I am going to our weekly tonight and will definitely try and apply this advice ^_^