Wavedashing won't be in the game for one good reason

[jdironfist]

Yeah it does, but

As I try to think of a rebuttle, I realize that you'll never agree that wavedashing shouldn't return, and I won't ever agree it should, so may the best idea win. Come when we find out, one of us will concede. Until then,

Handshake?

Sure. Sorry for my caustic first post, I just get a little annoyed at people who have a personal beef with wavedashing simply because it "was never supposed to happen." It doesn't seem like you're one of those guys, so I apologize for jumping at you like you were.

 

[SiD]

Nah it's cool, I can understand getting annoyed by those types of people.

 

[Psychoace]

So their getting rid of the hookshot and Samus' grapple?

 

[MookieRah]

Sid, the thing you don't realize is that often times in many different fighting games there are techniques that, just like wavedashing, were unintended. Most of the time it's even more subtle and not just a minor error with the physics. Most of them involve way more tech skill to perform, and a lot of the time they change the way the game is played competitively. A lot of times the single technique would elminate most of the cast because they can't perform it, or they cause a character to be banned. Honest to goodness, with only wavedashing and wobbling as the 2 biggest beefs people have in the casual scene of melee then we were flippin lucky.

If you are worried about Brawl's learning curves the last thing on your mind should be the possible return of the wavedash. While I'm at it, could you please stop toting the whole "Brawl should be different" attitude. Wavedashing won't make Brawl identical to Melee. Hell, if the only difference between Brawl was that it had no wavedash it would STILL be a melee clone. Seriously, it's a poor argument. Simply put wavedashing does not define melee.

 

[SiD]

I think it has a lot to do with me missing the good old days, when I played Smash carefree, ignorant to the way it's really played. And I can never get too good at a game, I don't know why. I've spent the time learing how to play melee advanced like, but after a certain point i haven't felt like I've gotten any better at all. A slightly simpler game would allow me to focus on other things like mindgames without getting superkilled by people who move twice as fast from wavedashing.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm glad that you posted that Sid, cause with information like that I might be able to help you improve. EVERYONE who plays smash will hit a plateau at some point, but you just gotta tough it out to make it to the next level. This usually happens after someone learns all the basic tech skill (wavedashing, l-cancelling, shffling, and some character specific stuff). People tend to hit plateaus when they run out of tech skill to improve on, and if you aren't playing fox, falco, or Ice Climbers, you can hit it pretty fast.

Anyeays, here are some things that you could look into to help you out:

@wavedashing
Wavedashing really doesn't increase the speed of melee much. Sure, for characters like the ICs, Luigi, and Mewtwo it speeds them up, but for most others with decent wavedashes, it just adds the option of going backwards without turning around. You need to actually work on trying to figure out what is causing your losses as opposed to just pointing your finger at the wavedash. If you can, record a video or two. Just use a VCR or something. Rewatch the video and find out what went wrong. If you felt like you were helpless during the entire match, it could be because your opponent was playing smart, or they were incredibly technical with their pressure game and you didn't know how to overcome it. Another very likely scenario is that you were so demoralized by your opponents wavedashing that it destroys your ability to play the game. If you go into a match thinking you will lose, you probably will. You gotta overcome those mental obstacles if you want to take your game further.

@mindgames
Honest to goodness, you should learn how to manipulate the lowbies with smart play and move on to the big fish. If you try to learn mindgames against veterans it is much much harder to pick up on, as they make less obvious mistakes. Learn to pick up on patterns, behaviours, and etc with some of your casual chums. You don't have to **** them for it if you want to keep it casual, but keep tabs on them. Pick up on where they tech roll too, or if they use their second jump as fast as possible after an up throw. Once you have a good grounding in observing stuff like that you can learn to spot some of the more subtle habbits of better players.

 

[SiD]

Only problem, I don't have any casual players to practice against. Solid advice though, thanks.

I still vote against wavedash in Brawl though.

 

[brawlpro]

ok, if they have movable air dodging, and solid land, i think that they will have wavedashing, i dunno 4 sure but i don't think nintendo knew bout wavedashin, they prolly would have tot tat it mite b a cute lil combination of short hop and landin on the ground from an airdodge(sry if i'm wrong):veryconfu.

 

[Superstar]

I wish Wavedash to stay as it deepens the game, and just feels good. I'll still get Brawl whether or not it has it, but I very well would like Brawl to keep it, its another tech to use.

And of course, Pimpuigi, he uses the pink luigi, right? Also, I am still sure Pichu is a glitch, just look it, I need to start a campaign to prove that Pichu is a glitch

 

[brawlpro]

does anyone even use pichu? i dunno cause i never visit pichu's or mr.game and watch areas, i don't wanna waste my time, i hope those 2 get replaced.

 

[Keige]

I've gotten my *** handed to me by a completely awesome G&W before. Don't. Get. Dtilted.

 

[brawlpro]

dtilt is like his best move, thats about all i do in the rare times i play with him, which r then followed by possibly an upgrab then nair, even his lil b move sucked, u can't even short hop to do it.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm all for wavedashing, but it is a bit over powered. If it's in it should be in a how to play video (unlockable perferably). Wavedashing is a VERY VERY good, technique I'm tired of good players telling casual players "it's not a big deal at all, it's like nothing,"Wavedashing is just like rolling" or "People beat the best players in the world all the time without wavedashing" All that is 100% bullspit. The fact is WDing is very

Wavedashing allows you to move backwards without chhanging direction, while attacking or grabbing, while moving into an edge hog, at the same fcking time! It makes some characters very fast! It makes Luigi able to clear final Destination just as fast as Fox! And when you think about it, that's bullspit. It wasn't meant to happen, now I know a lot of thinks wern't suppose to happen but let's be real. Luigi should no be able to keep up with Captain Falcon. Wavedashing is VERY essential, possibly to most essential technqiue. Try playing as the ICs without WDing, try it! And comment on this, I want to hear some good thoughts on this.

 

[Takeshi245]

I wish Wavedash to stay as it deepens the game, and just feels good. I'll still get Brawl whether or not it has it, but I very well would like Brawl to keep it, its another tech to use.

Same here, man. However, if it isn't in there, you know what that means.

 

[Helios]

I didn't notice the sarcasm comment at first, so I was real close to calling the topic creator a noob.
Now I'll just have to resort to calling everyone in this thread who thinks wavedashing is overpowered and/or should be taken out of the game a noob =)

Noob!

 

[Angrylobster]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm all for wavedashing, but it is a bit over powered. If it's in it should be in a how to play video (unlockable perferably). Wavedashing is a VERY VERY good, technique I'm tired of good players telling casual players "it's not a big deal at all, it's like nothing,"Wavedashing is just like rolling" or "People beat the best players in the world all the time without wavedashing" All that is 100% bullspit. The fact is WDing is very

Wavedashing allows you to move backwards without chhanging direction, while attacking or grabbing, while moving into an edge hog, at the same fcking time! It makes some characters very fast! It makes Luigi able to clear final Destination just as fast as Fox! And when you think about it, that's bullspit. It wasn't meant to happen, now I know a lot of thinks wern't suppose to happen but let's be real. Luigi should no be able to keep up with Captain Falcon. Wavedashing is VERY essential, possibly to most essential technqiue. Try playing as the ICs without WDing, try it! And comment on this, I want to hear some good thoughts on this.

So let me get this straight. You wanna weaken a character like Luigi, whos ALREADY low tier to begin with? I don't get it

 

[psicicle]

WD is essential for ICs and Luigi and is probably better than SHFFL for them (at least it is for ICs since their ground game is so good)

FOr the other characters, SHFFL tends to be better (although I guess it could be debatable with samus or some character that I don't play (anyone besides IC, fox and ganon))

 

[MookieRah]

but it is a bit over powered.

Don't get me wrong when I say this, because I don't mean anything mean at all I'm just relaying a fact to you. You are a person who is very new to these boards, has always posted negatively towards wavedashing, and has not shown much if at all any tournament experience or even rankings on tournaments. In what way do you feel you are qualified to argue about wavedashing being overpowered? It's obvious in your arguments that you don't have a solid foundation for proving wavedashing to be overpowered, and you typically resort to the age old excuse that "the developers didn't intend for it."

It makes Luigi able to clear final Destination just as fast as Fox!

No, this wasn't intended by the developers. Nor was it their intention to make Luigi suck on the tier list. If it wasn't for wavedashing Luigi would be much lower. With wavedashing he can hold his own in a good assortment of matchups. In this case (and in most cases) wavedashing actually helped balance the game.

A lot of you guys don't realize that while this is a forum, and you have your own unique opinions and all that and there is nothing wrong to voice them, you will be debated for your views and opinions. If you do not have a factual basis for your opinion and try to act like you do you WILL be scrutinized. I would honestly have A LOT more respect for a lot of you if you just came out and said "I just don't like wavedashing." as opposed to trying to go around spreading false accusations and statements that were discussed and were flawed since 2004.

I'm sick and tired of scrubs wanting to validate their reasons as something more than being spiteful, ignorant, etc when 99% of the time that is all it is. Just cause you can rally 50,000 scrubs to your cause it doesn't make you right. I'm especially hate how some people claim that the popular opinion among casual players is a hatred of advanced techniques, when the vast majority of casual players don't know anything about this website or even gamefaqs.

Please, stop making up numbers and toting yourself as being right when you are pulling **** out of your ***. Have some dignity and man up and just say you simply don't like it. Don't fight us for enjoying it and being spiteful of our mastery of it. We'll still beat you in brawl with or without it.

 

[NES n00b]

Explain how doing all that at the same time (which is NOT possible by the way) is overpowered Hypnotist? Also, who cares if wavedashing made a weaker characters much better. Why would you care about the tiers being more balanced because of it (it is a GOOD thing)? I have wanted these questions answered for a long time.

Edit: Mookie!

 

[element_of_fire]

mookie for prez <3

 

[The Hypnotist]

So let me get this straight. You wanna weaken a character like Luigi, whos ALREADY low tier to begin with? I don't get it

You can't really call Luigi "Low Tier" he's often banned in low tier characters. But that's besides the point, it doesn't make sense how fast luigi is, and wavedashing is overpowered.

 

[brawlpro]

wait, again how is wavedashing over powered, i don't agree, cause wavedashing is somethin thats normal and done with advanced stuff, almost every fox player would be pissed if wavedashing isn't in brawl.

 

[Adi]

You realize removing wavedashing would only serve to furthur the gap between the high and low tiers. Because the high tier characters could just learn pivoting and crouch cancelling moves out of dashes while the low tier characters wouldn't have a wavedashing equivalant to fall back on since in general their dashes suck.

 

[Zoinkslls]

Umm, I have something to say. I've noticed this before and never said anything, but look here:

Look at Mario, in that flying position. Maybe Wavedashing will potentially be in Brawl?

 

[MookieRah]

But that's besides the point, it doesn't make sense how fast luigi is, and wavedashing is overpowered.

Wow, in light of EVERYTHING that has been said towards the Hypnotist, he defends his position only by repeating the very flawed argument we have been trying to debate with him. It takes balls to be that ignorant.

I also found the Luigi bit to be a bit contradictory. Wasn't another one of your stances on Melee that there was a lot of character imbalances? Again, Luigi IS LOW on the tier list, regardless of the semantics of him not being in low tier, he is way down there. You would have him plunge lower just because you disapprove of wavedashing.

This is a sad, sad story indeed :-(.

 

[psicicle]

In smash, I believe in functionality>form.

It wouldn't matter a great deal to me if even bowser became faster than fox. Even though it is kinda weird, it doesn't affect the gameplay, which is what I think counts. So luigi is fast when he wavedashes. It doesn't matter to me. Would it make the game better or less flawed if his moveset, hitboxes, etc were exactly the same and his character was changed to a turltle or something, or maybe something that can WD in real life or a skateboarding guy? The gameplay remains the same even though it makes more sense.

 

[Winston]

First of all, props to PimpUigi for a hilarious thread. It totally got me angry and I didn't catch the sarcasm bit the first time I read it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm all for wavedashing, but it is a bit over powered. If it's in it should be in a how to play video (unlockable perferably). Wavedashing is a VERY VERY good, technique I'm tired of good players telling casual players "it's not a big deal at all, it's like nothing,"Wavedashing is just like rolling" or "People beat the best players in the world all the time without wavedashing" All that is 100% bullspit. The fact is WDing is very

Wavedashing allows you to move backwards without chhanging direction, while attacking or grabbing, while moving into an edge hog, at the same fcking time! It makes some characters very fast! It makes Luigi able to clear final Destination just as fast as Fox! And when you think about it, that's bullspit. It wasn't meant to happen, now I know a lot of thinks wern't suppose to happen but let's be real. Luigi should no be able to keep up with Captain Falcon. Wavedashing is VERY essential, possibly to most essential technqiue. Try playing as the ICs without WDing, try it! And comment on this, I want to hear some good thoughts on this.

WDing is the most important technique for THREE characters only (ICs, Luigi, Mewtwo). One of those characters is high tier (ICs), one of them has favorable matchups with all low tiers and unfavorable matchups with most high/top tiers (Luigi), and one is pretty awful (Mewtwo), though maybe not the worst.

If the three characters with the fastest/best/most essential wavedash are on average mediocre in overall tier placement, then how is wavedashing overpowered? It certainly hasn't put these characters over the top.

For every other character SHFFLing is FAR more important to use. Ganon and Bowser's wavedashes are short and have laggy startup time, while their shuffles are their best approaches. Fox's shffled nairs into shines make a great approach, while Falco shffls to pillar shields, and short hops to laser to pressure the opponent. Sheik's short hop doesn't really matter, but she must l-cancel or she will be shieldgrabbed. ETC. ETC. the list goes on.

So what if you can move backwards while attacking? It's good for spacing, but it's by no means overpowered. It doesn't give your attacks any more priority or range. Wavedash in and out from marth all you want, he's still going to hit you with a grab or his sword (If you are the 75% of the melee cast that can't really deal with marth, and the marth plays intelligently).

Wavedashing into edgehog? you've gotta be kidding me. Turn around and sh onto the ledge if there's no wavedashing.

...


last point. Luigi can't get across FD as fast as falcon and fox. It's slightly slower.


Maybe wavedashing would be broken if the point of this game was to travel across FD backwards.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Wow, in light of EVERYTHING that has been said towards the Hypnotist, he defends his position only by repeating the very flawed argument we have been trying to debate with him. It takes balls to be that ignorant.

I also found the Luigi bit to be a bit contradictory. Wasn't another one of your stances on Melee that there was a lot of character imbalances? Again, Luigi IS LOW on the tier list, regardless of the semantics of him not being in low tier, he is way down there. You would have him plunge lower just because you disapprove of wavedashing.

This is a sad, sad story indeed :-(.

Harsh! Hahaha. But look at how powerful the ICs and Marth and fcking fox become with wavedashing! Think about it, moving backwards without changing directions while attacking while moving into an edge hog! That's big. And I never ever said remove wavedashing! I just said you can't say it's not a big deal, which is what everyone seems to tell the news. Which is bullspit. I don't disapprove wavedashing! I play as the ICs, it just should be taught in the game, and good players should not make it seem like it don'es thelp much,

 

[The Hypnotist]

First of all, props to PimpUigi for a hilarious thread. It totally got me angry and I didn't catch the sarcasm bit the first time I read it.



WDing is the most important technique for THREE characters only (ICs, Luigi, Mewtwo). One of those characters is high tier (ICs), one of them has favorable matchups with all low tiers and unfavorable matchups with most high/top tiers (Luigi), and one is pretty awful (Mewtwo), though maybe not the worst.

If the three characters with the fastest/best/most essential wavedash are on average mediocre in overall tier placement, then how is wavedashing overpowered? It certainly hasn't put these characters over the top.

For every other character SHFFLing is FAR more important to use. Ganon and Bowser's wavedashes are short and have laggy startup time, while their shuffles are their best approaches. Fox's shffled nairs into shines make a great approach, while Falco shffls to pillar shields, and short hops to laser to pressure the opponent. Sheik's short hop doesn't really matter, but she must l-cancel or she will be shieldgrabbed. ETC. ETC. the list goes on.

So what if you can move backwards while attacking? It's good for spacing, but it's by no means overpowered. It doesn't give your attacks any more priority or range. Wavedash in and out from marth all you want, he's still going to hit you with a grab or his sword (If you are the 75% of the melee cast that can't really deal with marth, and the marth plays intelligently).

Wavedashing into edgehog? you've gotta be kidding me. Turn around and sh onto the ledge if there's no wavedashing.

...


last point. Luigi can't get across FD as fast as falcon and fox. It's slightly slower.


Maybe wavedashing would be broken if the point of this game was to travel across FD backwards.

What about the fact that WDing allows Fox to waveshine. Or that moving backwards without changing directions is much faster than turning around. It may not be the most important thing (and I don't think I ever said that it was the most important thing) but it is essential, and it should be somewha reworked, Luigi shuoldn't be that fast. Maybe everyone's WD should be the same length. T he fact is they need to a least notify casual players about it.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Again... tell me moving backwards without changing directions while attaking into an edge hog doens't have any strategic value. Not to mentin allowing some characters to move very fast and alowing fox to waveshine. You can't serioulsy say WDign isn't a big deal.

 

[Adi]

Wavedashing is an important factor but all the high tier character characters have other techniques to accomodate for it while the lower tier characters are the ones that are really left at a loss.

 

[S_B]

It'll be removed because Sakurai has been threatened with the pwnstick to make Brawl more casual-friendly because, in case no one has noticed, that's what the Wii is all about.

Deal.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It'll be removed because Sakurai has been threatened with the pwnstick to make Brawl more casual-friendly because, in case no one has noticed, that's what the Wii is all about.

Deal.

Pardon me good sir, but where might I purchase one of these..."pwn-sticks" you youngsters are so fond of talking about?

 

[Mr.GAW]

The Hypnotist:

LUIGI IS NOT FAST. He can move across the ground at a decent speed, but that sure as hell doesn't make him fast.

He is one of the floatiest characters in the game, and his reovery is a slow too. Y'know what else is slow? His attacks!

I main Luigi, and you can WD and SHFFL as much as you like, Luigi still isn't faster than fox and falcon.

So you need to STFU about this.

Don't believe me? Let's get the TC back in here and see if HE thinks Luigi is faster than Fox and Falcon.

Jesus. I'm sick of you using that argument.

 

[Superstar]

Basically, Wavedash is strong but not overpowered. This argument assumes that you are using a character that could make good use of their wavedash.

If you are incapable of wavedashing, you will suck.

If you ARE capable of wavedashing, you can still suck.

Everyone assumes if that
p -> q
then
!p -> !q

But its not like that, even if p is not true, q could very well stay the same. Learning wavedash doesn't automatically make you good, but without it you will stink.

You could suck with and without the wavedash, that's why its not overpowered. You need to be intelligent with your wavedashes, you need to know WHEN to use them, so you won't get F-Smashed in the face.

And Wavedash is one of the only ways that Mario can survive versus Marth, Marth becomes so much stronger if the other characters can't weave in and out of his sword.

 

[The Hypnotist]

The point is Luigi is pretty fast, he's not suppose to be that fast. Also wavedashing is very very important, I'm not saying remove it (I play as the fing ice climbers), I'm just saying everyone has the right to know how to wavedash (though the game) and everyone has the right to know how powerful WDing is. Seriously, if moving backwards without changing directions while attacking while moving into a edge hog isn't important, then I don't understand wher you coming from.

There needs to be a thread for inexperienced players spefically about wavedashing. what it is, what it does, how it benifits, all that jazz.

and btw, MrG&W.... you need to calm down...

 

[brawlpro]

wow, this isn't a luigi thread ppl!

 

[PimpUigi]

Mr. GAW is my friend : )

It says so in the PimpUigi instruction manual.

Yet...it doesn't say Dan is my avatar in my instruction manual...

Who wrote my instruction manual anyway?

 

[Tristan_win]

*sighs* L canceling is still in the game and it is not in the manual so what you say is void.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

*sighs* L canceling is still in the game and it is not in the manual so what you say is void.

...you're kidding, right?