WaveDashing In SSBB

[Paranoid_Android]

Assuming air-dodging is still in the game, there are only two possible outcomes to this debate:

1) Wavedashing remains in the game because the physics engine continues to make you slide along the ground after landing from an air-dodge.

2) Wavedashing has been removed from the game, and instead, another animation (likely a roll similar to a tech) has replaced it as the way the game's physics engine deals with landing an air dodge.



I see no evidence in favor of either outcome.





L Cancelling, Short Hopping, Fast Falling, and most all other techs will inevitably make a return.

 

[Red Exodus]

Melee isn't that unbalanced. Play SSB64 and call SSBM unbalanced. It is beyond me how people expect to get a game as good as smash balanced completely when they're over 20 characters with around 40 moves each. Do you know how much programming and time it would take to balance them all?

Now Brawl is coming out and will probably have 30+ characters. You can't honestly expect them to try to make everything perfect.

Besides, the imbalance in the game isn't that great, it's only magnified by good players playing as certain characters.

I've watched a vid were Fumi [yoshi] beat a Falco that was Bombsolder [I think]. Even if it wasn't Bombsoldier it was a good Falco player, but Fumi actually put in work to make his Yoshi better than BS' Falco. I've also seen a few Taj [Mewtwo] vids where he beat Forward [Falco, one of the best Falco's I hear, probably top 5] several times, and if he didn't beat Foward he brought him down to 1 or 2 stocks. Mewtwo is bottom tier. So obviously the game is more balanced than most of you think.

 

[im2emo4myshrt]

I feel wavedashing greatly improves my game. It gives a flow to the game, and it prevents people from the tradition roll and smash tactics. Once you get good at wavedashing it becomes just as natural as rolling was when I started playing, and with it the extra mobility and defense it has, it completely changed my game. I would feel so lost with out it.

 

[MunkyMan33]

I feel wavedashing greatly improves my game. It gives a flow to the game, and it prevents people from the tradition roll and smash tactics. Once you get good at wavedashing it becomes just as natural as rolling was when I started playing, and with it the extra mobility and defense it has, it completely changed my game. I would feel so lost with out it.

First, I completely agree.

Second, I failed to make it clear in my original post, that while we all know the devs were aware of wavedashing in melee, I don't believe they foresaw its current implementation. (Or shine combos using it) I'm suggesting that this time they can work with wavedashing to better balance the game, as wavedashing currently doesn't help an already unbalanced game.

 

[MeloDeath]

Ahh, the Wavedash, where to start this love song...

First of all, JFox, you are totally right when saying that the WD layers the game and makes it more balanced. And secondly to everyone who says that L-cancelling is a glitch: not true.
It WAS a glitch back in SSB, but it was kept into the loved sequel that we all play.

I consider L-cancelling a more advanced technique than the WD and because of this logic, i feel that, with ever-expanding numbers of tournaments and tournament quality (MLG with live commentary, sweeeet), Ninty will surely keep this move in the game as a reward to all that are dedicated enough to learn it.

Another aspect of the WD and technique in general. If you've watched the brawl trailers in detail, and i'm sure you all have, you will have seen the new "roll", which looks like a rolling dodge, but doesnt show any sign of invincibility frames, and doesnt slow down the character when reaching the edge of a platform, instead rolling them off into their feet. Nifty lil move, which i cant wait to get my hands on. But i feel the addition of techniques doenst have to mean throwing out old tech, like the WD.

Maybe this isn't the right thread for this sorta thing, but i've come up with some cool techniques myself, which i think will spice the game up a bit, making is almost too hot to digest... anyways...
Out of a lying position, you can, in ssbm, roll, stand up or attack. why not jump out of a lying position, ledgejump style ?
Also, another great move: the A-Tech. (pun intended) when hitting solid material (wall, ground, ceiling) press A to do a kind of attack that would be comparable to the lyingdown attackmove from ssbm.

And the list goes on, but to not tray too for off topic, i will say that there are absolutely NO cons to the WD, since it helps spacing, (Cant bare to watch 2 noobs rolling around each other, occasionally trying to smash the other....) and overall improves the speed of the game.

 

[MeloDeath]

I learned to wavedash fairly well but I rarely use it against other people (unless I'm using the Ice Climbers). I'll probably every once in a while wavedash back when they think I'm coming in for an attack.

But aside from that, I don't think wavedashing unbalances the game significantly considering the game was unbalanced to begin with. The creators knew wavedashing existed even though it wasn't intended and left it in the game just like they knew Fox was leagues and leagues better than Pichu but left both in the game. Wavedashing will probably be in Brawl. In fact, I saw a trailer for Brawl and I could swear Solid Snake wavedashed in one of the scenes.

I think i saw that too .
Was is the scene where he knocked down Pit and then wavedashed into a downsmash (presumably the rocket-launcher is a downsmash).
In any case, in those trailers you see Metaknight and Pit dodging back really really **** quick, too fast for a dodge i think. If those are Wd's, they look pretty darn smooth.

 

[Creo]

First off, I love when n00bs roll to each other(they suck so bad).
Second, smash is in MLG..?(someone told me it wasn't... I thought it was but I'm not sure now)
Third,(back to subject) wavedashing is not a glitch it's an advanced skill to smash or astound n00bs.

 

[MeloDeath]

First off, I love when n00bs roll to each other(they suck so bad).
Second, smash is in MLG..?(someone told me it wasn't... I thought it was but I'm not sure now)
Third,(back to subject) wavedashing is not a glitch it's an advanced skill to smash or astound n00bs.

Ohh smash is Mlg all right. just type in MLG new York Ken on Youtube, and you will see Ken get his behind whooped by PC, With Wife giving live commentary (sweeeet)

 

[Creo]

Finally someone tells me what I believed.(sad thing is, someone on these posts told me it wasn't).

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Finally someone tells me what I believed.(sad thing is, someone on these posts told me it wasn't).

It was, it isn't now. They are still helping out by sponsoring some privately run tournaments though.

 

[Creo]

So it should come back for Brawl.(possibly)

 

[-Wolfy-]

Ohh smash is Mlg all right. just type in MLG new York Ken on Youtube, and you will see Ken get his behind whooped by PC, With Wife giving live commentary (sweeeet)

Smash will not officially be on the pro circuit for MLG, however, MLG will be sponsoring a Grassroots tour to show that they still have interest in the game, even though Evo2k will be taking over the competitive scene.

And by the way folks, this is WAY off-topic. I'm pretty sure there's a thread somewhere for the MLG/Evo2k discussion.

 

[ecstatic]

I think i saw that too .
Was is the scene where he knocked down Pit and then wavedashed into a downsmash (presumably the rocket-launcher is a downsmash).
In any case, in those trailers you see Metaknight and Pit dodging back really really **** quick, too fast for a dodge i think. If those are Wd's, they look pretty darn smooth.

I watched the trailer again, and I'd have to say that looks like a WD without the smoke-effects. Let's hope it is one. I especially hope they are that smooth in the real game.

 

[MeloDeath]

I watched the trailer again, and I'd have to say that looks like a WD without the smoke-effects. Let's hope it is one. I especially hope they are that smooth in the real game.

And, when watching the World Trailer, you will see kirby do an L-cancelled Fair at +- 0:29.
Good stuff

 

[MeloDeath]

And i appologize to everyone who i mislead with my premature comments on the MLG-thing.

 

[MeloDeath]

Ohh, sorry, im staying off topic. but early in the world trailer you see kirby do his Up-B, which is about similar in height to the one we know now. But at 0:50, kirby does a up-B which is significantly shorter. Again.... good stuff.

Edit: i misjudged the video: kirby comes from a platform below...

 

[Creo]

MeloDeath...don't tripple post.
ecstatic...BlackMage doesn't rule Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris rules him.
(back to subject) it could just be one of Snakes move.Probably not(hope not) and I'll look for the L cancel of Kirby.( haven't seen it yet)

 

[P.E]

I am against WD. First of all I can do WD, but I use it rarely. My Problem with WD are:

1)
Somehow it is annoying to perform it. What would you say if a Fireball in Street Fighter would be a 720° + 3 Buttons or sth?

2)
Imagine in Brawl you would perform a WD by simply pressing e.g. "R". Suddenly everyone could do Wave Dashes. I claim that it would disturb many of you just because you could´nt boast anymore with it.

3)
I have the feeling that using WD slowly damages my Control-Stick. I´m quite sensitive with my controller(s) since a controller loses precision (especially very bad in F-Zero GX!) if you use it like a buttonsmasher.

4)
Maybe the most important thing is: In my opinion it just looks stupid! At the beginning I was impressed but now... come on.. plz compare a pro-battle of SSB with SSBM. The SSB-Battles had style (I claim that I am pro in SSB, not in SSBM since i don´t use WD which apparently divides good players and real pro-gamers) but the SSBM-Pro-Battles are all about sliding around all the time like there are only ice-stages in the game.

To sum up: I don´t want the WD to be easy performed, I want it removed!

 

[ecstatic]

Creo, you obviously have boughten into Chuck Norris's only lie. I'll admit he is awesome, but he is nothing compared to the power of the Black Mage. It is the only class he has ever feared. He knows, as well as others (like me), that at any time the black mages could cast warp and instantly kill us all, but they're generous enough to let us live. It's only a matter of time before Norris goes too far...

Anyways, back to talking about something meaningful () P.E, it doesn't hurt your control stick. It's not hard to do, people with a brain don't boast about it, and wanting it removed because it's not flashy enough for you is rather bad logic. Sheilds aren't particular cool looking, yet I don't think you want sheilds removed.

Melodeath, I watched and saw Kirby "lcancel". I agree it does seem like an lcancel, but it's really hard to tell since we don't know what lag it normally has in Brawl. (All characters are being redesinged for Brawl, so you can't compare to Melee.)

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I am against WD. First of all I can do WD, but I use it rarely. My Problem with WD are:

1)
Somehow it is annoying to perform it. What would you say if a Fireball in Street Fighter would be a 720° + 3 Buttons or sth?

2)
Imagine in Brawl you would perform a WD by simply pressing e.g. "R". Suddenly everyone could do Wave Dashes. I claim that it would disturb many of you just because you could´nt boast anymore with it.

3)
I have the feeling that using WD slowly damages my Control-Stick. I´m quite sensitive with my controller(s) since a controller loses precision (especially very bad in F-Zero GX!) if you use it like a buttonsmasher.

4)
Maybe the most important thing is: In my opinion it just looks stupid! At the beginning I was impressed but now... come on.. plz compare a pro-battle of SSB with SSBM. The SSB-Battles had style (I claim that I am pro in SSB, not in SSBM since i don´t use WD which apparently divides good players and real pro-gamers) but the SSBM-Pro-Battles are all about sliding around all the time like there are only ice-stages in the game.

To sum up: I don´t want the WD to be easy performed, I want it removed!

To sum up: You don't have any idea what you're talking about on any of these points. Especially 4, which pretty much proves you've only watched Luigi or Ice Climber matches.

 

[i8waffles612]

Idc i dont even use wavedashing...

 

[pikachun00b7]

WD is just the waveland special. It is like air-dogeing and why would Nintendo get rid of that?
If Nintendo wanted to get rid of this they would've patched melee a looong time ago.

 

[Red Exodus]

You fail

I am against WD. First of all I can do WD, but I use it rarely. My Problem with WD are:

1)
Somehow it is annoying to perform it. What would you say if a Fireball in Street Fighter would be a 720° + 3 Buttons or sth?

2)
Imagine in Brawl you would perform a WD by simply pressing e.g. "R". Suddenly everyone could do Wave Dashes. I claim that it would disturb many of you just because you could´nt boast anymore with it.

3)
I have the feeling that using WD slowly damages my Control-Stick. I´m quite sensitive with my controller(s) since a controller loses precision (especially very bad in F-Zero GX!) if you use it like a buttonsmasher.

4)
Maybe the most important thing is: In my opinion it just looks stupid! At the beginning I was impressed but now... come on.. plz compare a pro-battle of SSB with SSBM. The SSB-Battles had style (I claim that I am pro in SSB, not in SSBM since i don´t use WD which apparently divides good players and real pro-gamers) but the SSBM-Pro-Battles are all about sliding around all the time like there are only ice-stages in the game.

To sum up: I don´t want the WD to be easy performed, I want it removed!

1) If it's annoying to perform don't do it. Simple. Aniki doesn't do it and look how well he does.

2) That point treally made no sense at all.

3)Well either get a controller for smash, don't wavedash, or don't complain about it.

4) Boo hoo, you want to look like figure skating? If it looks stupid don't do it or play with scrubs that are against wavedashing.

 

[Shieldkrusher]

It could go either way for me.

Personally, I don't use Wavedashing that much to actually miss it or for it to effect my gameplay.

 

[Johnknight1]

1) If it's annoying to perform don't do it. Simple. Aniki doesn't do it and look how well he does.

2) That point treally made no sense at all.

3)Well either get a controller for smash, don't wavedash, or don't complain about it.

4) Boo hoo, you want to look like figure skating? If it looks stupid don't do it or play with scrubs that are against wavedashing.

^^^^=owned! I can wd, but don't use it much, but when I get to using it my chances of victory heavily increase. I think WD will almost emminently be in SSBB, but probably be a lot easier to perform, and be a lot more balanced (ie: everyone can do it well).

It will probably be easier, and heavily modified (as in for the better/more advanced maybe?). Also WD removal would simply destroy the tourney circuit. Might as well take out all mid to high tier characters in SSBM, and take out air dodging. Removing it is just plain stupid.

You could just want it to be easier if you don't know how to use it, or even better: PRACTICE ON IT! If Sakurai wants there to be no tourney circuit, then by all means he'll take it out, and every pro, advanced, or WD user will stick with SSBM.

Sure SSB 64 was good without it, better without WD IMO, but that is the only SSB game that is the exception. Removing WD would simply put kill tournies, and ruin the pros way/key to victory. It is hard to master, I confess (took me forever to learn to use it), but it is worth it.

Despite WD being a so-called "bug" or glitch" in SSBM, I think it will be more worked on, rather than basically accident. I think there is a chance it could be totally redone, probably for the better. If WD is made a lot easier, I see maybe some new features to the game that make a great advantage for experienced players. Overall it is a must for the tourney circuit.

 

[Zelda_Fan_]

Well since I main Link, WDing doesn't really play a huge factor in my game, except for quick edge hogging and spacing here and there. I don't care either way, but what would the game developers do to take it out? Would they have to take air dodging out, making characters that much more vulnerable in the air?

 

[P.E]

Well since I main Link, WDing doesn't really play a huge factor in my game, except for quick edge hogging and spacing here and there. I don't care either way, but what would the game developers do to take it out? Would they have to take air dodging out, making characters that much more vulnerable in the air?

I think it would be quite simple: Game could just not allow air dashing at the very beginning of a jump.

@Johnknight1: Isn´t it childish to say that the tournaments only exist because of WD?
You sound like you think there is no depth in this game except WD. In my opinion that´s completely wrong. If WD would be the only reason for tournaments, then it means that there is no difference between real pros and advanced players... what the hell!

In Street Fighter 3 Thrid Strike there were also some removed gameplay mechanics (some others were added), but it didn´t stop it to become the new "tournament game".

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

Wavedashing is a glitch. However, it is a glitch that NINTENDO's DEBUGGERS found and after much consideration left in the game. That means that though its creation was accidental, the people who made Melee were aware of it and left it in.

Secondly, the director of Brawl has stated that several members of the game-creation team who are working on Brawl have played more than 10 000 matches, meaning they most likely know of the wavedash and will not be taking it out. I certainly hope they'll keep it.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Wave dashing and other techniques promote a higher level of game play. Learning them and implementing them correctly separates your new players from your pros. It's as simple as that. It also allows the game to be played as fast as possible, which is, when you get down to it, the most aesthetically pleasing and awe inspiring to watch.

 

[MeloDeath]

Lets analyse what P.E. says...
point 1: anoyingness: matter of practise, dont whine about it.

point 2: he says that people like us cant boast about it, and he feels bad about it?
Rather conflicting, dont you think ? But maybe they will make it easier, which i wont think is a bad thing, i want everyone to start doing the WD.

Point 3: extremely off-topic and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Point 4: A matter of taste... i bet everyone on this forum thinks you look pretty stupid right now too, doenst mean we remove you...

 

[ecstatic]

Lol MeloDeath, your fourth point is funny, and most definantly true.

 

[Creo]

I personally use WD a lot(I main Falco)and I do think it should make a return, but I don't think they should make it easier because that's what seperates pros from n00bs.(n00bs complain it's too hard to do and they give up on their first try...heh)

 

[Red Exodus]

You *still* fail.

I think it would be quite simple: Game could just not allow air dashing at the very beginning of a jump.

@Johnknight1: Isn´t it childish to say that the tournaments only exist because of WD?
You sound like you think there is no depth in this game except WD. In my opinion that´s completely wrong. If WD would be the only reason for tournaments, then it means that there is no difference between real pros and advanced players... what the hell!

In Street Fighter 3 Thrid Strike there were also some removed gameplay mechanics (some others were added), but it didn´t stop it to become the new "tournament game".

Smash is hardly a tournament game already, if not for advanced techniques it would just be another party game. SSB64 had a competitive scene because of 0-death comboes, otherwise I doubt that many people would have stuck with it. Why play a game at tournament level if there's nothing to master other than the basics?

Look at Marvel vs Capcom 2, at tournament level people know infinites and other 'glitches' [as you call them] yet, no one bans them, no one complains about them, they live with it and learn it. They love the game, no like some of the members on the board that stick with SSBM because it has an easy competitive scene.

I'd love to enter competitive scenes, but I can't, everyone around here fails [I better than or as good as everyone I've played, there're no real challenges], plus I'm short on money [I'm 15, with no allowance, so it's to be expected] so I can't pick up games that are played competitively, the only competitive game I have around here now is Burnout 3, and I don't really want to enter the competitive scene in that.

 

[Creo]

I here you... I'm 14 with no allowance so I can't enter tourny levels either. But I am better than anyone I have played yet, and I am looking forward to a Brawl tourny.

 

[MeloDeath]

I'm totally excites about the release of brawl, as everyone in this (Cyber)space is.

Everybody is gonna be playing their *** off to find out as quickly as possible who the best character is and find out all the techniques. sweet.

Furthermore... you american kids should whine about not being able to go to tournaments based on financial issues. I earn a decent sum every week, but there is just not one tournament i can go to... and that sucks even worse.

And speaking of sucking... that's one way to make a quick buck.

 

[Red Exodus]

It's not a financial problem so to speak, I'm not poor but my mom doesn't want to spoil me.

 

[cubaisdeath]

I personally WD alot, because I play falco and fox as my primaries. if they do keep it in brawl, it will either be modified, or just left in. but who knows? what if something new happens in brawl that makes the wavedash completely inefficient? There will be crawling, what if you can't wavedash because you go into crawl position?

 

[Creo]

highly doubt it if theres still airdodging.

 

[freddybones]

*only read the first post + 5% of the thread*

I really don't think they can get rid of it. I mean all it is is Air Dodging toward the ground. In order for them to remove Wavedashing they'd have to do one of two possible things.

1. Remove Air Dodging all together. I Highly doubt they'll go for this though. Air Dodging was a huge step up in defensive play.
2. Alter the traction on EVERY character so that they all have identically massive traction. This way when you do Air Dodge towards the ground, you won't go anywhere. Again, I doubt they'll decide to go with this because this can screw up how a lot of characters move in relation to the ground.

Just my thoughts. Now to catch up on the rest of the thread.

 

[Creo]

.......hmm...