"Watch the power!" Lucario Match up thread! possible AT thread as well?

[2-DJeff]

Hey guys 2djeff aka(streetshark) here! Since no one made a thread for match up for lucario I thought I should! Let's get the ball rolling! So what my should we talk about first! I will be making bullets points of peoples input so that our info can look nice and easy to read. Pros and con's in a mu are great! Also this thread can be use as a AT thread or if someone else would like to make an AT thread!

 

[Jaxas]

Well let's see, I've been having some serious troubles with Kirby and Yoshi
Not sure I can be of too much assistance (though I'll certainly try!).

Also, you might want to add a poll though with some common characters to see who to do first. Some of the popular characters like Little Mac, Zero Suit Samus, Lucina, etc would be good options.

 

[2-DJeff]

Oh if people have trouble vs Lil Mac let me know lol I have that covered but I will!

 

[Jaxas]

Oh if people have trouble vs Lil Mac let me know lol I have that covered but I will!

Well if you have content ready, then we may as well start with Little Mac; he's a pretty dang common character anyways, so it's a solid starting point.

As far as I know the goal against LM is to (along with staying at the ledge so he has to approach you and you can Bthrow him) zone him to where he can't get in, correct?

----- EDIT -----
We should probably keep the MU and AT threads separate, though

 

[2-DJeff]

True. But to be honest. You can fight Lil Mac up close. Punish him with jabs and grabs(especially grabs) up throw forces him into a situation where he cannot contest wit uptilt. Upair. Aura spear destroys him off stage. If you see him countering to recover safety without getting hit off again. Do a full charge fsmash because his counter will run out and it will leave him open. If he's off stage using counter to counter aura sphere just bait it and let him fall to his death. Fair is a great gimping tool. If you're fighting him mid stage always keep him in the air as much as possible. Force him to air dodge and fsmash. Me and duff city gdx play this my a ton of times. Far force palm is a great spacing tool when you're at higher percent. When recovering just grab the edge and then jump back and up b again across the stage. Be tricky with it though

 

[Jaxas]

When LM is offstage Fair is good, however I've had some problems since it hits upwards at a diagonal angle; if you can follow it up for sure with Nair/Fair again then it's amazing. Dair tends to hit horizontally, though it's a bit more difficult to land, and Nair is a bit weak but has some solid horizontal knockback. I tend to mix it up between those 3, but I tend to use Fair more simply because it's easier with a Circle Pad to run off and keep holding forward. Bair is probably the best option here, with the stronger knockback, horizontal trajectory, and longer-lasting hitbox, but I can't pull it off reliably enough with the CPP.

I know that his Ftilt is safe on block, and I'm pretty sure it outranges everything we have save for AS and FP, so if you're fighting a good LM (a lot of players don't use this) then that's definitely something to watch out for in the spacing/neutral game.

Obviously keep in mind his super armor, because even an Fsmash from a high-aura Lucario will just deal damage and not take a stock at that point. If he then counters with a smash/etc of his own and that kills, you're a low-aura Lucario trying to get a kill; not something you want to have to do.

 

[2-DJeff]

Great! Info! As soon as I get home tonight I will organize this all

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Are we still doing this? If not would you mind if I start a new matchup thread?

 

[2-DJeff]

yes im still doing this! sorry about my absents! what Mu is next?

 

[Jaxas]

yes im still doing this! sorry about my absents! what Mu is next?

Honestly I don't think we have enough on this MU, though it may simply be too early to get that much more in-depth.

I'd say we try and figure out Little Mac a bit more personally, but if not then how about Rosaluma, Yoshi, ZSS, or one of the other more popular characters at the moment?

 

[Deerfin]

I think you both covered the major points of the Little Mac MU.
-Aura Sphere (even when you're both at low %) absolutely trashes Mac's recovery. I rarely go for a hard chase, given that all of our aerials outside of b-air and n-air have a chance to give him more vertical recovery room (which is the only way he can recover).
- I rarely attempt to go toe to toe, LM is one of those match ups where I spend more time trying to bait attacks and punish/string off of it.
- As lame as it is.. go matador style near the ledge->bait->throw->Aura Sphere = bread and butter of the MU.

 

[Loota]

Even if you fail on edgeguarding him and he gets on the ledge, Mac still has his abysmal aerials so using aura sphere charge on the ledge to cover his options is even more effective than on other characters. His options are literally narrowed down to using sideB (and maybe counter? lawl) to get over us, if I'm not terribly forgetting something, which is basically a free punish of your choice.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Points of interest.

• Mac can DI up and Counter out of Aura Sphere Charge to get out of it.
• Our pivot grab range is a lot larger than our regular grab range. If that Mac won't fall for it mix up your spacing a bit. lol matador.
• Smarter Macs will probably be using Counter to avoid jugglings. If so then bait it and throw him.
  
• Mac shouldn't be able to easily Side B over a 100% fresh fully charged Aura Sphere, but be careful if you fire them off without spacing 'em.
• If you need matchup practice try For Glory you'll see a Little Mac pretty much every few people. Just hard camp near that ledge.
  
• His rapid Jab is really hard to DI out of. Be sure to not accidentally waste your second jump trying to get out of it.
  
• Our FTilt is great if spaced.
• If you need spacing help don't forget about Pivot A moves.
• Unless you have godlike Shield DI grabbing Mac after his FTilt is almost impossible. Even if you perfect shield the first hit.
• Be super careful trying to attack him during his smashes. That super armor is obnoxious.
• If you get the opportunity grab pummel release him over the ledge.
• Unless you are down a stock you he has to approach and one slip up can cost him a stock.
• You can stagespike him on battlefield if you stand at the very edge and BThrow him towards the stage.

Probably even or in our favor with a wider stage list.

• Another thing worth mentioning is if you grab release him over the ledge (without pummeling) and have a fully charge Aura Sphere you can launch it at him and he either has to fast fall, air dodge (maybe?) or Counter, which probably means he will have a hard time returning to the stage. If he jumps he's dead.

 

[GrosMinou]

What about Lucina/Marth, Its the only real mathcup that I really have trouble with. does anyone have any insight?

 

[Jaxas]

So, something I've seen in a lot of the other forums is having a stickied "Matchup directory thread" that links to multiple concurrently open character-specific Matchup Threads.

I feel like that could be a lot faster for covering multiple characters, so I vote we do that.

Also, I'd help with Lucina/Marth but I haven't fought enough of them yet; sorry!

 

[2-DJeff]

So, something I've seen in a lot of the other forums is having a stickied "Matchup directory thread" that links to multiple concurrently open character-specific Matchup Threads.

I feel like that could be a lot faster for covering multiple characters, so I vote we do that.

Also, I'd help with Lucina/Marth but I haven't fought enough of them yet; sorry!

so vs marth and Lucina what are you thoughts so far?
i think out ftilt is very good iun this mu
i also have some tourney wins already. ill be posting some ft5s i had vs zss and other characters later. my other tag is "streetshark" http://smashboards.com/threads/cfl-smackdown-monthly-10-25-14.375088/
http://smashboards.com/threads/cfl-smackdown-10-21-14.374390/#post-17827369
http://smashboards.com/threads/cfl-smackdown-10-7.372011/
new one today but wifi
http://challonge.com/CLASHSMASH3dsTourny

 

[Jaxas]

so vs marth and Lucina what are you thoughts so far?
i think out ftilt is very good iun this mu
i also have some tourney wins already. ill be posting some ft5s i had vs zss and other characters later. my other tag is "streetshark" http://smashboards.com/threads/cfl-smackdown-monthly-10-25-14.375088/
http://smashboards.com/threads/cfl-smackdown-10-21-14.374390/#post-17827369
http://smashboards.com/threads/cfl-smackdown-10-7.372011/
new one today but wifi
http://challonge.com/CLASHSMASH3dsTourny

I still haven't been able to fight too many Marth/Lucinas in Sm4sh; all the ones I've fought have been friendlies with players who are pretty new to competitive.
Do we have any moves (outside of FP Flame and AS of course) that out-range them? I feel like Marth's tippers killing relatively early (I assume; I've fought a TON of Marth in Brawl, as little as that means) could be problematic if we have no real way to stay safe from them.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I second Lucina and approaching Lucarios as her at high %s terrifies me.

Since you can only do one FAir in a short hop Marth/Lucy isn't going to do as much damage from a combo. It is easy to DI out after being struck with three hits of Dancing Blade.

The Counter is something you really should be looking out for. Very quick and high % Lucarios will die from it if they aren't careful about what moves they throw out.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Marth is more dangerous than Lucina. Tippers make huge difference.

With Lucina, the only things we have to worry about are Shield Breaker and Counter. When Lucario gets to a high percent, we have literally no reason to use smashes against her since they're so slow. Playing cat and mouse with Force Palm and Aura Sphere will beat Lucina as well as sticking with tilts and low strength aerials.

Basically, play Lucario and stay out of Shield Breaker and Counter range and we win against Lucina.

Marth is different, we have to take into account the same things as Lucina plus his tippers. Tipper Fsmash will pretty much kill us anytime. Against Marth, we'll most likely have to play a little more aggressively due to tippers.

 

[Karnu]

Opinions on dealing with Bowser?

 

[Jaxas]

Opinions on dealing with Bowser?

I don't think he has that much that can deal with a high-percent FP flame, nor with camping a bit with AS.
I think the match-decider will be whether or not he gets an early kill. We can't kill him without being at very high percents, as he lives through a ton and we don't have any tools to gimp him. He can kill us at medium-low percents though, so we have to play very safely.

 

[Karnu]

I felt I have to play very safe with this Match up.
I hate how he gets a good read with his Fsmash, OUCH!

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I felt I have to play very safe with this Match up.
I hate how he gets a good read with his Fsmash, OUCH!

1. Have a nearly fully charged Aura Sphere at a higher percent.
   
2. Get him offstage.
3. Have him grab the ledge.
4. Stand near the ledge with your back facing the ledge and start charging Aura Sphere.
5. Watch him take like 10%+ to just get around you (not even counting hitting him with Aura Sphere).

http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/ Look at all that landing lag for Bowser, lol.

You could try to pressure his shield as well, then he has to try to blitz you.

BReversal to Aura Sphere charge to murder his shield is also an option too :3 Just don't get too predictable with it.

 

[Karnu]

1. Have a nearly fully charged Aura Sphere at a higher percent.
   
2. Get him offstage.
3. Have him grab the ledge.
4. Stand near the ledge with your back facing the ledge and start charging Aura Sphere.
5. Watch him take like 10%+ to just get around you (not even counting hitting him with Aura Sphere).

http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/ Look at all that landing lag for Bowser, lol.

You could try to pressure his shield as well, then he has to try to blitz you.

BReversal to Aura Sphere charge to murder his shield is also an option too :3 Just don't get too predictable with it.

Thanks man <3
I'll work on that when I vs a Bowser next.

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

So I've been playing among friends in another online community and FG, but I think I may have something for the little mac match up. When he's in the air, there isn't much he can do outside of double jumping and fastfalling or using one of his terrible aerials. I've found that simply Up throwing him constantly (with no attacks inbetween usually as to not take a slip counter) and regrabbing him as he comes back down works as a very silly looking chain grab.

I've yet to see a mac really contest this, but it's perfectly possible I'm just not playing people who've wised up to how to get out yet.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Ganondorf is my weakness.

Lucario's lack of range on everything makes this matchup a pain in the you know what. I'm very close to thinking the matchup is almost even or extremely lopsided due to how variable Lucario is.

If Ganon gets the first kill, good luck winning. If we get the first kill and hold on to aura, good luck to Ganondorf. If we get the first kill but get revenge killed quickly, back to the even-ness until you realize Ganondorf can outfootsie Lucario on the ground and the air. The only answers to Ganon's aerials I can think of is to not get hit, thank no range moves for that.

 

[2-DJeff]

anyone played the peach MU yet? i played against Kyon a ton but that Mu seems harder than what it should be

 

[Jaxas]

anyone played the peach MU yet? i played against Kyon a ton but that Mu seems harder than what it should be

I haven't played the Peach MU yet outside of 1 friendly, so I can't speak to that yet.
Does anyone have advice against Villager, though? I think it's more me having trouble against him than Lucario, but his pocket really hampers Lucario as well because it beats out his 2 largest high-aura buffs, the Aura Sphere and Force Palm.
What I know so far is...

Watch out for:
- Pocketing AS/FP Flame
- Fair/Bair
- The tree
- Bowling Ball edgeguard
- Bthrow at high percents

Good customs against him:
- Piercing AS (goes through Lloyd rockets and tree, and is faster so slightly more difficult to pocket; as little as that means)
- LD Force Palm? (Cancels Lloyd rocket and hits him through that and tree, but easier to pocket and if pocketed hits back from much further. Also speed, of course)

I'm by no means at high-level Lucario play yet, but I've been having a lot of trouble in this MU and any help would be appreciated.
(Also, I'll have a video of me against a Villager up from this last Saturday's local soon; I'll post it in the videos thread for more personal/less purely MU-related advice)

 

[|RK|]

I'm usually not too worried about the FP flame pocket. Like, the Villager can use it, but what they really want is that AS. Outside of that, I really don't have extra advice.

 

[Jaxas]

I'm usually not too worried about the FP flame pocket. Like, the Villager can use it, but what they really want is that AS. Outside of that, I really don't have extra advice.

Pocketed FP Flame from a high-percent Lucario is surprisingly good, simply because it's so fast. Great range, moderate knockback, and basically no ending lag isn't bad; definitely not as good as AS, though.

The only way I found I was able to use AS was by baiting him into attempting to pocket my FP Flame and firing a (piercing, if that's relevant) BAS at him then charging him down before he could just toss it away. Until he got rid of the almost useless BAS, then I could use Aura Sphere all I wanted - I don't think this is that viable though, as he had many opportunities to just toss it while I was recovering, for example.

 

[Karnu]

Jaxas you got the warnings of the Villigar right.

I want to add try not to be too predicable when you recover, like, don't always ES into him or the same place on the stage because he can just stand where you awlays go (or just wait till you ES into him) and charge his Fsmash.

Personally don't even take on FD or any of the Omega stages, you're recovery options are limited on an FD stage. Personally I think Villiger needs room, I find taking that little tramp on YI is really good (Maybe Prisim tower is good at som parts of the stage as well).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I might be making a new Mu threads but only because I have some set goals ad changes I would make to how these have been treated in the past, pretty much why I've come to realize over the years how it was done on the Brawl boards was a mistake.

 

[Karnu]

Sheik is a $lut

What do I do?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Sheik is a $lut

What do I do?

Don't get hit by Bouncing Fish or Tipper USmash. Needles do like 6%, try to DI well, so you don't get strung into FAir too much...

If you don't get hit by one of her main kill moves expect to live over 150% each stock.

 

[Jaxas]

Sheik is a $lut

What do I do?

Sheik's weakness is that she can't kill, and we're Lucario. You just have to never, EVER forget that Bouncing Fish exists and never leave yourself open for it. Her only other kill move is Usmash I believe, so I think this is one MU where we won't have that hard of a time.

--- EDIT ---
Whoops, beaten to the punch. Guess I should reload old tabs before posting...

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

I seem to really be struggling against Ness. His fair and dash attack have a lot of priority, he has some pretty safe approaches on a PK Fire hit confirm, and his back throw is making sure my lucario doesn't live for too long past 115%. There's even the Psi Magnet making Aura Spheres always feel so iffy. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to approach Ness or what do once you're in vs Ness?

 

[Pitbuller26]

Due to the lack of range on our everything that Ness can't absorb. We have to outplay him severely. Not much to say but getting grabs and capitalizing off of them.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

If you out prioritize (with an FAir or DAir) or take the hit from PK Thunder 1 when he's trying to recover. Welp, gg for him. I wouldn't do this above 40%, unless if you're really confident.

Also, Shield DI will let you grab him easily after the last hit of Dash Attack.

We also have USmash that'll kill him pretty much at 70%-80% when we're at 100%.

Mash jump and SDI/DI away when you get hit by PK Fire. We can also Dash Attack over the bolt part of it.

If they spam FAir all day you could probably Double Team it too.

 

[Jaxas]

If you out prioritize (with an FAir or DAir) or take the hit from PK Thunder 1 when he's trying to recover. Welp, gg for him. I wouldn't do this above 40%, unless if you're really confident.

Also, Shield DI will let you grab him easily after the last hit of Dash Attack.

We also have USmash that'll kill him pretty much at 70%-80% when we're at 100%.

Mash jump and SDI/DI away when you get hit by PK Fire. We can also Dash Attack over the bolt part of it.

If they spam FAir all day you could probably Double Team it too.

Shield SDI is done by lightly tilting the control stick while getting hit in shield, right?
I keep rolling instead; I honestly wasn't sure it was in Sm4sh.

 

[chaos_Leader]

I've played a great many games vs. my roommate/good friend/eternal smash rival, and have some observations I'd like to bring forward.

I've found two matchups that are particularly dangerous for Lucario:

1: Cpt. Falcon

In my experience so far, this has been an absolutely nerve-wracking matchup for me to go against with Lucario. Cpt. Falcon has excellent mobility and maneuverability, allowing him to rush-down, pressure, bait-and-switch punish. The mobility allows him to easily circumvent Lucario's zoning game, he also has more than enough speed and reach in his kit to easily punish Lucario's missed reads. On top of that, Cpt. Falcon has more than enough raw power in his KOing moves to knock Lucario out before ludicrous-aura starts to kick in. The slight heavyweight class for Falcon doesn't help Lucario's case much either.

I've done my best to play a very conservative reactionary game against my roommate's Falcon; anticipating his running grabs by catching him in reverse-ASC, getting the reads. It's still a very, very dangerous game of cat/mouse, and Lucario is the poor hapless mouse.

2: Link

I've only fought against a few good Links, but those few matches have been enough to convince me this will be a very tough nut for Lucario to crack. The main feature here is Link's multi-layered zoning: not only is there bombs bows and boomerangs galore, there's also a very hefty, long-reaching, quick-swinging Master Sword in the way, and the clawshot that can potentially punish shields during the close-in, plus the Hylian Shield can make Aura Sphere/Force Palm zoning practically moot. A prominent (if not primary) drawback vs. Lucario in this matchup is Lucario's pretty poor kit for closing distance vs. zoners like link, Lucario really doesn't have the inherent mobility to wedge himself inside all of Link's tools like many faster characters can. And to top it all off, Link comes stocked with a plethora of very powerful, very long-reaching KO moves that will easily knock Lucario out before ludicrous-aura kicks in.

so vs marth and Lucina what are you thoughts so far?
i think out ftilt is very good iun this mu

Played several matches against my roommate's excellent Marth. Marth, in good hands, can be quite dangerous for Lucario. The tippers give Marth startlingly potent kill power on some very quick F-smashes, and there's plenty of pressuring options Marth can bring to bear against an unwary Lucario.

My personal strategy has been twofold: 1) Zoning with AS (both weak and strong AS) and FP, when higher % aura allows FP to outrange much of Marth's swordplay 2) up-close boxing/grabs.

Lucario vs. Marth is a dangerous mu if you're not prepared for a very high-precision Marth player, but definitely not insurmountable. For one, Marth doesn't really have the kit to take advantage of Lucario's disadvantages as well as other chars can, particularly Lucario's less-than-stellar ability to work under a high-speed pressure game, since Marth is far better suited for precision punishing, and his spacing game is manageable with Lucario's tools. As an added bonus for Lucario, I've found AS to be an excellent way to harass Marth trying to return to stage after a ledgegrab; not as a single shot, but several carefully timed partial-charges, especially if there's a little aura built up.