Warlock Punch vs Blade vs Thrust

[Davis-Lightheart]

So the custom move debate is in it's final stages and we have decided on six sets.

The final list is:
X322
X122
X121
X332
X132
X321

Top three being the priority movesets, meant to encompass a wide range of MUs.

Now, something must be done about the neutral B slot. Everyone can agree that none of them are super incredible, but they do have their place. (Except for punch, but that's just my opinion.)

The way I would like this to work is for a good review of the uses of each B and for everyone to write down what NB should go where. The poll will have influence with the priority movesets (while taking into great account written discussion) while the bottom niche sets will be left for more open ended discussion about what move benefits which set best. I encourage players to think hard about what they choose, because this doesn't just encompass 1v1, but can potentially cover 2v2 and higher.

I am also going to open a thread like this on reddit, to get some other opinions from there as well. I'll have a link up soon.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The thing is that in 2v2 Blade and even Punch are better than Thrust, while Thrust is better in the vast majority of 1v1 matchups. That being said, 2222 is probably close enough to the optimal 2v2 set functionally to work in those scenarios. If I had to choose specific moves to fill in the Xs for the above sets, I'd choose Blade for X332 and Thrust for the other sets. If we ever get the chance to replace the 2222 and 3333 sets I'd probably choose either 1221 or 2221 for the doubles set and add a 2322 set since Blade might be better against Villager or something.

 

[Xinc]

I believe blade is preferential over thrust and punch. Thrust has lower kill potential, but hits faster, but blade gives Ganon a lot more distance control, which is something he needs. He can "trap" an opponent on a particular ledge, which is a great thing, especially with minimal punishment.

 

[Oort]

I think thrust should be used with up b 2 and blade with up b 3 as the best compromise.

 

[Big O]

In teams, I think it is a tossup. WP and WB are a lot scarier in a more chaotic environment.

WB is probably most practical choice in teams due to the range covering half the battlefield and generous super armor window. I can see it pairing well with counters. Triggering a counter extends the active frames of the WB and hitting it from a safe distance gives your teammate an invincible and powerful counter attack.

WP can actually hit someone, but even with super armor it isn't too likely. Best used as an assist to secure stocks. Charging a smash attack is more practical though.

WT has too much vulnerable endlag to be useful in teams on its own, but perhaps a strategy can be made with teammates hitting you with weak moves (like MegaMan lemons) to cancel your endlag. Not sure how viable such a strategy is, but I think it might be cool.

I think WB may warrant a slot on something for teams. 2222 also seems like a decent team oriented set.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Leaving this for Ganondorf players later tomorrow. I will be taking this all in and finishing this list at 2 PM EST. Please gets your word in, because more opinions really help.

 

[Shogger]

I don't really understand Warlock Thrust, despite the fact that it's more practical to hit compared to Punch and Blade. There aren't a lot of situations in which you wouldn't be similarly served with a smash or aerial. WP and WB by contrast have a much huger payoff and have utility that Ganon's other punishes don't (super armor and range, as well as overwhelmingly high KO power.)

I have to go with WB for best in its slot.

 

[Z1GMA]

I don't really understand Warlock Thrust, despite the fact that it's more practical to hit compared to Punch and Blade. There aren't a lot of situations in which you wouldn't be similarly served with a smash or aerial.

I feel the same way. It's a mid/high risk - Low reward move.
When you do hit with it, it's hard to keep your momentum going due to its slowness, and a lot of times, Dtilt, Ftilt, or an aerial does better damage.

The only thing that's cool about it is shenanigans after Gerudo, but even then, a good read with another move is often better.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Only an hour left. Anything you may have to add is great for the cause.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

2322
3122
3121
2332
3132
3321

Well, this is what I've come up with from all the evidence I've been given. Thrust's potential is best in a 1v1 situation for it's speed and it's slight disjointed properities, while blade is best as an extension of Ganondorf's original moveset with some reasonable edgeguarding properties, and in 2v2.

I hope this is satisfactory, but I'm perfectly willing to change it for some last minute argument.

 

[WwwWario]

I don't really understand Warlock Thrust, despite the fact that it's more practical to hit compared to Punch and Blade. There aren't a lot of situations in which you wouldn't be similarly served with a smash or aerial. WP and WB by contrast have a much huger payoff and have utility that Ganon's other punishes don't (super armor and range, as well as overwhelmingly high KO power.)

I have to go with WB for best in its slot.

I see what you mean, though the Thrust have proven to be very useful to me many times ^^ Yes, a Smash Attack or areal does much of the job, but I find the Thrust to be a really safe move. It can be used in the air as well as the ground, and it has good range. I feel it's good for surprising the enemy, since you can use it mid air, has good range, and you can do a reverse punch. And it is, for some reason, really satisfying to hit with ^^

 

[Belgrim]

Also keep in mind the blade has a sweet spot at the tip which can be perfect for me edge guarding

 

[HeavyLobster]

3322
3122
2121
2332
3132
3321

Well, this is what I've come up with from all the evidence I've been given. Thrust's potential is best in a 1v1 situation for it's speed and it's slight disjointed properities, while blade is best as an extension of Ganondorf's original moveset with some reasonable edgeguarding properties, and in 2v2.

I hope this is satisfactory, but I'm perfectly willing to change it for some last minute argument.

I would probably argue in favor of 3121 over 2121 and 2322 over 3322. The main reason is that Choke is preferred in matchups against heavyweights and counter users(usually swords), archetypes that usually have good range, and a semi-fast move that can outrange them does have uses. On the other hand, Chain and Dropkick tend to work best against projectile characters, some of which have stage control tools like the Tree and Fire Hydrant that have damage threshold requirements that Blade can meet from a distance but Thrust can't.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Hmm. Ok then; that's a good thing to keep in mind. Does anyone else have something to add?

 

[Z1GMA]

WP & WB over Thrust any day.

½122

 

[Sykkamorre]

It's just gotta be the punch or blade. I've been trying desperately to make thrust work...but no.

Just no.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Oh boy. Well gentlemen (@ Z1GMA @ Sykkamorre ); perhaps you could elaborate just a little more on what you have to say on these individual movesets then. There are obviously those who have found Thrust to be useful as well, so a compromise needs to be found. Let's see if we can find something that works good enough for now.

And remember, slots 9 and 10 will be available for normal 3ds customization transfer, so this list isn't the end all be all.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Oh boy. Well gentlemen (@ Z1GMA @ Sykkamorre ); perhaps you could elaborate just a little more on what you have to say on these individual movesets then. There are obviously those who have found Thrust to be useful as well, so a compromise needs to be found. Let's see if we can find something that works good enough for now.

And remember, slots 9 and 10 will be available for normal 3ds customization transfer, so this list isn't the end all be all.

My oppinion: you made a poll, and blade won. Use blade.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Very well; the majority has spoken. And taking this all in, I've changed my position.

2322
2122
2121
2332
2132
2321

The poll said that blade should take the priority movesets, so it has the majority now. In the end, Blade seemed to have popularity for 1v1, and is undeniably better than Punch and Thrust in 2v2 so it won out; I felt that the flexibility of blade lends itself well to the early meta. In the end, this was probably the biggest trial of preference I've seen where there was really no right answer to any of this.

If people want to try out Thrust or punch on the other movesets, then they have two slots for a 3DS transfer, and maybe the meta will develop where thrust proves to be the ultimately better option. Who knows? In the end, this is only a temporary patch; and once all Wii Us have customs unlocked, this issue won't be a thing anymore.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Warlock Thrust against projectile users. Warlock Thrust or Sword against non-projectile users. Warlock Punch against Charizard.

Stated this elsewhere, no one viable custom move is the best choice at all times.

 

[JmacAttack]

Blade has reduced kill power compared to Punch, but the range and speed it gains is vitally important in Ganon's harder matchups -- it has roughly twice the range of Warlock Punch.

Punch is just too slow and short-ranged to be of any real use. It always seems to leave opponents just enough time to roll out of the way, even if you catch them attacking the armor with a read. Blade, meanwhile, has enough speed and range to hit Sheik out of her Bouncing Fish - with the tipper, at that! Likewise, a single roll away from Ganon is enough to escape Punch, but is not enough to escape Warlock Blade, as it will get you nailed by the tipper. The only times I have ever seen Punch be a legitimate option is against Kirby when he's using final cutter from above you, or against Charizard using Flare Blitz while you're on flat ground, but Flare Blitz is so unsafe on shield that you can easily F-smash out of shield instead, and that only kills Charizard 5% later than Warlock Punch.