Wario's Matchups - Free discussion!

[TheReflexWonder]

I AM NUMBER ONE IN THE WORLD, SON

 

[SixSaw]

Ganon is easy. Ganon is the easiest thing to combo and edgeguard in the world. Everything he does is unsafe on block. Very easy to outspace.

I wouldn't call Ganon "easy". I've had the chance to play some very strong Ganons, namely Arty, and I can say that the character in the hands of someone like that really is a totally different beast from your "typical" Ganon. For one, Ganon has many things that are safe on block when spaced properly, namely dair. He also has a very strong techchase game, a general range advantage, capability to overwhelm your weaving with quick burst movements + large moves like fair, and some other good options that can be annoying for Wario like cc jab. Not to say that Wario has an especially hard time with Ganon, but he's certainly no pushover. I think the MU is even.

Sheik is hard. Sheik will tech chase you to oblivion because Wario tech rolls slower than the rolls under his chin.

This is true, but Shiek should have a hard time getting that grab in the first place. This is one of those MUs where air weaving is actually effective and with proper use of it you force her onto the offensive where she's a lot less scary. SideB also plows right through needles.

Olimar is easy. You have plenty of tools to stuff his Pikmin and the edgeguard is a joke. Only thing you really need to watch out for is fair.

Olimar is basically a sword user and no sword user will ever be easy for Wario, much less one with a projectile and mechanic incentive to camp. Just looking at it on paper I don't see how this could possibly be better than even. With that said, Olimar doesn't cover himself from above while grounded as well as most sword users do, and that gives Wario opportunities to get in. He also has very poor OoS options.

GnW most definitely does not win the CC war vs Wario. o_O Aerial weaving/plat camping and dash back grounded Wario both do well vs most GnW styles.

The matchup is pretty close to even (I used to think it as bad as 4-6, but now lean towards 45-55) and this is because:
1. GnW struggles to get in.
2. GnW struggles just enough trying to edgeguard Wario.
3. Wario's damage output / momentum snowballing can make deficits (which exacerbates 1/2) very difficult to come back from unless the GnW really slows the game down and stays extra patient.

I've played against basically what I believe are 4 of the stronger Wario players around (Reflex [Best or 2nd best in ATL/S], Strong Bad [Top 5 MW probably], Carls [#1 Columbus/top X Ohio], and LOE1 [Top 3 - MI]) at various points, all of which who have different styles.

Dtilt and bacon more. That might give you a different perspective.

 

[Juushichi]

I've been playing this MU since 2.1 (originally a bit with Apples). Please, tell me more. : )

If anything, I'm probably the most experienced GnW in this MU in the world right now.

 

[\Apples]

Olimar is basically a sword user and no sword user will ever be easy for Wario, much less one with a projectile and mechanic incentive to camp. Just looking at it on paper I don't see how this could possibly be better than even. With that said, Olimar doesn't cover himself from above while grounded as well as most sword users do, and that gives Wario opportunities to get in. He also has very poor OoS options.

Poor OOS options means Wario gets to eat.

The only really annoying things about the matchup are

1. You can't tell what he's doing cause his visual cues are naturally tiny.
2. Pikmin sometimes get in the way of Side Special reads and you just collide with one and get **** on.
3. His grab looks like Fsmash, reminds me of Wario's dashgrab mix-up but only his whole moveset is like this.

I've been playing this MU since 2.1 (originally a bit with Apples). Please, tell me more. : )

If anything, I'm probably the most experienced GnW in this MU in the world right now.

I have to agree with SixSaw, partially. Manhole beats the finger and bacon beats the weaving (inconsistently, though).

I definitely agree that the matchup is easier for Wario once he gets the pressure going. I get away with it, but I feel unsafe pressuring Gdub with that super quick Up Special which he can aerial out of. DACUS and gatling can create openings against Wario's weaving.

 

[Juushichi]

idk about manhole beating the finger. maybe at mid % where asdi down and CC go into hard KD, otherwise, idk. Bacon might beat "weaving", but GnW jumping after wario loses to so much on his end. Once Wario starts the juggle, you have to be wary of stalling in the air or something like dair idk, but it's not like GnW has a lot of air mobility. Go up there and uair GnW... especially if you "safejump" or frame trap the up-B. It's not that hard to bait. GnW's aerials take a while to come out.

 

[CyberZixx]

How does everyone feel Wario match up spread is overall and his viability in a big tourney setting? Looking at sixsaw's list it seems his match up spread is not great. But form the sounds of things all are playable except the possibility of Marth and Fox which is a unfortunate issue seeing how popular those characters are.

I am looking for a new main and love everything about Wario and he's my favorite design in the game but not sure how worth it being serious about the character is.

 

[\Apples]

Just do what you love, the rest will follow. Or in Wario's case, the waft.

 

[CyberZixx]

I respect that. I wanna expose Marth players anyway.

 

[mYzeALot]

Marth is tough, frustrating, annoying, but Wario does have a few tricks to use against him. Wario is a fine main on his own, which I do excluding other characters that I'm trying out or if I find a character I want to get better with, I keep them as a secondary.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Melee wins in the long run, so I would probably tell you to pick up another character to manage against the Foxes and Marths of the world. It's probably doable, but it probably won't be worth the trouble as time goes on.

 

[0RLY]

I wouldn't call Ganon "easy". I've had the chance to play some very strong Ganons, namely Arty, and I can say that the character in the hands of someone like that really is a totally different beast from your "typical" Ganon. For one, Ganon has many things that are safe on block when spaced properly, namely dair. He also has a very strong techchase game, a general range advantage, capability to overwhelm your weaving with quick burst movements + large moves like fair, and some other good options that can be annoying for Wario like cc jab. Not to say that Wario has an especially hard time with Ganon, but he's certainly no pushover. I think the MU is even.

I don't see how a blocked dair can't be punished by nair/fair/bite OoS. I personally think Ganon's tech chase game is weak in comparison to melee+brawl top tiers. He just has the choke, and that doesn't cover all the bases. Ganon only appears fast if he gets in, but he's just so slow that you could just stand still and shield on reaction to anything he does, and if he gets too close nair OoS beats everything. The start up on flame choke is slow enough to jump over and dair him. A shffl'd fair is the most threatening thing he can do. If he jumps early to try to get the tipper on it, you can just waddle back have him miss and then you have your frame advantage. If he does it later, you can easily shield grab or attempt to stuff him with sh uair. If he's bold and tries to go for a close up air-choke, you can nair OoS to stuff him. Up-B OoS also works if you feel like he's got a bair spaced real well that you can't grab OoS and you think you're going to eat a ground move of his choice if you do nothing.

This is true, but Shiek should have a hard time getting that grab in the first place. This is one of those MUs where air weaving is actually effective and with proper use of it you force her onto the offensive where she's a lot less scary. SideB also plows right through needles.

Needles are fast enough that I can't SB on reaction. I also prefer using platform SBs for the zero end lag and needles beat the aerial portion of that. I don't even think air weaving is the problem. It's that sheik ftilt that protects her so well...

Olimar is basically a sword user and no sword user will ever be easy for Wario, much less one with a projectile and mechanic incentive to camp. Just looking at it on paper I don't see how this could possibly be better than even. With that said, Olimar doesn't cover himself from above while grounded as well as most sword users do, and that gives Wario opportunities to get in. He also has very poor OoS options.

Swords just makes attacks safer on block and win trades. Olimar doesn't get enough range off of his disjoint to actually be safe on block. Olimar actually has a really good usmash and can cover his head quite well. His diagonal is only really protected by fair, and he's pretty much forced to retreat or commit if you come in at that angle. If he commits, you can easily avoid his single option or just get in his face and eat him.

 

[Strong Badam]

Melee wins in the long run, so I would probably tell you to pick up another character to manage against the Foxes and Marths of the world. It's probably doable, but it probably won't be worth the trouble as time goes on.

I maintain that Fox is significantly easier than Marth (for this character). I personally don't seem to have issues with either, though.

 

[DMG]

Marth is realistically the hardest. Fox would be near the same difficulty, it's just much riskier since Fox mistakes will be brutalized by Wario.

Wario's a fine character. I don't know if I would want to 100% solo him in tourney, but that statement applies to like 90% of the PM cast lol. Hard MU's fly around pretty common in this game, even if you're a decent character.

 

[0RLY]

Currently using link to handle marth. Bigger sword. Nuff said.

Also currently getting my buns handed to me by Lucas. He wins the aerial trades and gets in his grab way too easily, converting into combos and KOs.

 

[\Apples]

Currently using link to handle marth. Bigger sword. Nuff said.

Also currently getting my buns handed to me by Lucas. He wins the aerial trades and gets in his grab way too easily, converting into combos and KOs.

Same. Link gets it done.

 

[NickLeo]

Going back to mewtwo, I have a decent amount of experience with the matchup and imo mewtwo wins 60-40
When wario is on the ground mewtwo can just spam shadow balls and Dtilts for days, forcing you to jump
When you're in the air you literally can't do anything other than eat mewtwo's tail repeatedly until you're far enough to get back to the ground
The only way to actually win this matchup is to play super safe and abuse wario's aerial mobility
You have to bait out a mistake because that's your only way to get in, and once you're in you have to stay in

Good CPs: FoD & YS

 

[SixSaw]

The hardest part about the Mewtwo matchup is not falling asleep.

 

[SixSaw]

So yeah nvm. I played Arty again and Ganon sucks.

Anyway, can anyone give some insight on how to edgeguard Lucario? I have no problem getting him off-stage but that upB is just too ****ing good. It's frustrating since I feel like Wario would soundly win this MU if I could just figure out how to reliably kill him before 120%+

 

[CyberZixx]

I barely played the match up but I liked intercepting up b attempts with sour nair. What were you trying?

 

[0RLY]

You gotta like predict where he's going to aim his up-b, and put your nair between that. If he's the type to use down-b too close to the stage, you can nair him during the endlag of that too. By too close, I mean anywhere you can reach him without killing yourself. Don't be afraid to go in extra deep and waft to recover.

 

[SixSaw]

The thing is he has so much freedom with where he goes that trying to predict it is often moot since he can just pick the other option on reaction.

Btw how do you guys feel about luigi?

 

[Strong Badam]

just footstool him brah

 

[0RLY]

Luigi < Wario's Ass cheeks

 

[CyberZixx]

Footstool does seem like a good option vs Luigi's side b. I seen Reflex dair the side b which is a statement to make in a match but is real risky. Could you also FS the upb without getting hit?

 

[Strong Badam]

You can't footstool someone who is in any action other than hitstun, regular jump animations, tumble, or special fall.

I was talking about Lucario tho. Dtilt/Fair -> footstool works surprisingly well against Lucario

 

[CyberZixx]

Thanks for that clarification. Guess I gotta be gdlk like Reflex vs Lugi. I like the idea of using Footstool set ups for edgeguarding. Never considered it.

 

[A6stringthing (A6ST)]

How exactly would one effectively use Wario's Down Smash?

 

[SixSaw]

techchases/ resets. It has the largest horizontal reach of Wario's grounded attacks. The opponent can usually punish you on hit if they tech it, so it's best used sparingly. Imo it could do with some improvements.

 

[A6stringthing (A6ST)]

Hmm, sounds a bit situational, but I suppose I'll stick with the shoulder bash for tech chases. I've been punished several times for down smashes. However, it can rack up damage on someone who has trouble teching it. I used it 3 times successfully on a Falco player when I threw a local tourney last week, once he teched it, I was done. The move itself has a ton of starting lag, which makes it hard to use...

 

[0RLY]

Wario has had his dsmash nerfed like 3 patches in a row. It sets up tech chases against most of the cast and leads into aerials against the floaties. Fastfallers can tech before your animation finishes which is bad. It will never hit aerial opponents and the reach is about the same as your ftilt in both directions. It used to cover 2 tech options fairly easily, but now it doesn't except against the shortest of tech rolls. Also, nothing combos into it. It's like a low% punish move.

 

[A6stringthing (A6ST)]

Oh, I see. It's a shame most melee vets are fast fallers, I need to be more careful with it, I hadn't even thought about following up with an aerial on floaties. F-air, or N-air, what works better?

 

[jtm94]

Hi guys! I don't think I've posted in the Wario thread much if at all.
Across the board from people that I talk to Wario is one of the least known characters and few of the other threads have ever played the MU.

If any of you could take the time could I please get a general consensus for all of his known MUs and what direction they favor? I don't need anything in depth as this chart is meant to be plastic and change over time. Any input would be appreciated!

The colors are basic:
Red: is really bad
Orange: kind of bad
Yellow: unfavorable
Light Green: favorable
Darker Green: good
Darkest Green: free win

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to give me a general consensus on what characters are known!

 

[CyberZixx]

Why is there no option for even?

 

[jtm94]

That is an option in the form of grey. I apologize.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Down smash is also crouch-cancelable at any percent, so take that in consideration. I honestly can't imagine many situations where you would use it instead of anything else.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's true-CCable, not ASDI-down(...able?), so it's certainly a lot less susceptible than "CCable at any percent" would imply. I still get good mileage off of it.

 

[CyberZixx]

I like downsmash a lot actually. It is a niche move for sure by when landed it sets up a nice tech chase situation. I never use it as a poke so it being CCable is not a factor for me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Footstool does seem like a good option vs Luigi's side b.

You can tap Luigi with N-Air/F-Air offstage, forcing him to do a weak/fast Forward-B for recovery, which is easy to react to and D-Air. Much easier to predict that way; you just need to watch out for Misfire flash.

Otherwise, good reflexes (heh) make it pretty easy to D-Air in general, IMO. Just get used to his distances.

 

[CyberZixx]

You can tap Luigi with N-Air/F-Air offstage, forcing him to do a weak/fast Forward-B for recovery, which is easy to react to and D-Air. Much easier to predict that way; you just need to watch out for Misfire flash.

Otherwise, good reflexes (heh) make it pretty easy to D-Air in general, IMO. Just get used to his distances.

I never thought of something like that. Nasty set up. Gonna have to work on more edgeguard sets up with Wario.

 

[0RLY]

Hi guys! I don't think I've posted in the Wario thread much if at all.
Across the board from people that I talk to Wario is one of the least known characters and few of the other threads have ever played the MU.

If any of you could take the time could I please get a general consensus for all of his known MUs and what direction they favor? I don't need anything in depth as this chart is meant to be plastic and change over time. Any input would be appreciated!

The colors are basic:
Red: is really bad
Orange: kind of bad
Yellow: unfavorable
Light Green: favorable
Darker Green: good
Darkest Green: free win

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to give me a general consensus on what characters are known!

This is entirely my opinion. I have never played a D3 in my life, so it is left blank.